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Old    Bill Smeltzer (runin90lx)      Join Date: Sep 2009       02-06-2013, 12:24 PM Reply   
I am looking into a new tow vehicle. I found a great deal on a 2012 f250 but it has a 6" lift kit and 38's on 24" wheels. I am curious if anyone has a lifted truck that tows frequently. I am not worried about gas mileage as this will only be used to run around town and/or tow the boat(I have a work truck that I drive 90% of time). Just not allowed to use it to tow personal stuff.

Mainly want to know how well a lifted truck will tow the boat around. I'm in tx so mountain driving etc doesn't apply if that matters.
Old    Dave (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       02-06-2013, 12:31 PM Reply   
My brother has an 07 F250 with a 6" lift, 22's on 37's and it still puts my 05 F150 to shame and I live in BC where we have nothing but huge hills. The only other real difference is your ride will be rough and probably rougher once you are towing. You'll lose some low end torque with the bigger heavier wheels and tires but on a diesel I don't think you'll notice much.
Old    Bill Smeltzer (runin90lx)      Join Date: Sep 2009       02-06-2013, 12:34 PM Reply   
I drove the truck around town yesterday. He upgraded to fox shocks with the reservoirs. In town driving it barely rode any rougher than a stock f250 that I drove right before it. I wish my boat was back from the dealer and I would have hooked it up and pulled it around for a few. He also has a bully dog programmer so there wasn't any problem getting the truck to speed(without a load behind it anyways)
Old    Cole K (SkySki)      Join Date: Feb 2010       02-06-2013, 12:44 PM Reply   
I used to have a 1999 GMC Suburban with the 7.4L. It had a 6 in lift with 35's. I was at that time towing a 27 foot crownline - heavy. My biggest problem was the brakes. I replaced everything except the brake lines. The truck you are considering will have disks all the way around and I doubt your boat weighs as much as that crownline. Moral of this post is to consider the brakes a larger factor than a standard height truck. My Suburban could barely stop itself and adding that boat made it scary. I almost took someone out once and sold it right after. My duramax with disks all the way around didn't have any problems.
Old    Bill Smeltzer (runin90lx)      Join Date: Sep 2009       02-06-2013, 12:50 PM Reply   
My boat weighs 4000# plus trailer. But the trailer does have brakes as well so I don't think stopping will be a problem. Of course it doesn't get pulled at ridiculous speeds either, I'm very overly cautious pulling my boat lol
Old    kx250frider617            02-06-2013, 1:01 PM Reply   
Is this the 2012 6.2 gas motor or the 6.7 diesel? The biggest thing I would be worried about is the price of those tires when they are worn out. 38's are very expensive but on a 24" wheel, that makes them ridiculously priced. Not to mention getting in and out of the truck gets old after awhile. If possible, if you could lower it to a 4" lift or even a level on 35" tires, it would make the truck 100x better for towing and using the truck in general.
Old    Bill Smeltzer (runin90lx)      Join Date: Sep 2009       02-06-2013, 1:16 PM Reply   
It's the 6.7 diesel. It has the lowered steps on it and I'm 6'4" so the getting in and out wont be bad. The tire pricing I was thinking about. I'm guessing I would probably put 7000 miles a year max on the truck as its not going to be my daily driven vehicle.

I was originally looking at a new 2012 from a dealer, it has a leveling kit with 22's and 35" tires. But the new truck is about $13000 more than the lifted truck that only has 20k miles(it's my buddies truck and mostly highway miles). The brand new truck also has less options(no navigation, no heated or cooled seats, and no backup camera)

Last edited by runin90lx; 02-06-2013 at 1:19 PM.
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       02-06-2013, 1:28 PM Reply   
To do it right, you need bigger brakes and the gearing in the diff should be adjusted. Traction bars might also be a good idea, especially if the lift in the rear is blocks.
Old    Bill Smeltzer (runin90lx)      Join Date: Sep 2009       02-06-2013, 1:41 PM Reply   
It has 3.55 gears, and lift springs in back..no blocks
Old    kx250frider617            02-06-2013, 3:05 PM Reply   
I wouldn't worry about brakes pulling a wake boat at all. I pull a 25ft toyhauler, gross weight of 22k pounds with a 2002 f350 which had smaller brakes than the new trucks and it does perfectly fine. Unless your towing heavy, the stock brakes are fine for your situation.
Old    kx250frider617            02-06-2013, 3:07 PM Reply   
I say get it and if you don't like the height, you can buy a smaller lift and sell the old stuff. I wouldn't worry at all about towing performance for a relatively light load.
Old    Robby Elliott (Elliottsx80)      Join Date: Feb 2012       02-06-2013, 5:47 PM Reply   
i tow my x80 that has twins in it with my lifted duramax. 8 inch fabtech with 37 inch m16s on 24 inch rockstars and 456 gears. i do have a dpf delete and a h&s tuner. pulls it pretty easy. i can set the cruise at 80 with no crazy downshifting, but i get about 5 to 5.5 mpg gallan at best pulling the boat no matter what the speed i drive
Old     (Alleykat)      Join Date: Jan 2013       02-06-2013, 6:03 PM Reply   
5.5 mpg! I have had both lifted and non lifted tow vehicles I will say that in general, the non lifted stuff just works out better. Stops better, handles better,and gets better mileage towing. Only thing is......You look way cooler in a lifted truck towing a bad ass boat. Just depends how "cool" your wallet is I guess.

I agree, I would not want to buy rubber for that Furdm for sure.
Old    Cory D (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       02-06-2013, 6:50 PM Reply   
I tow with a lifted '86 F-250. 4" lift, springs up front and shackle flip in rear with reinforced hangers and shackles and angled shims to correct pinion angle. Currently 35"x12.5" radial tires but I used to run 38.5"x15" bias ply. Truck has a 460 about 425 HP and 550 ft/lbs torque, ZF5 trans, 3.55:1 gears and locked Sterling 10.25" rear. Weighs just shy of 6000 lbs, boat I figure is around 5000 with trailer, maybe a little heavier with gear and whatnot, never weighed the boat so guesstimating on Supras numbers. I normally tow at 70 MPH, which is 2000 RPM in 5th. Cruises comfortably and gets 10 MPG towing at that speed.

Drums on both axles on the trailer, drums on the rear of truck and disc in front. It stops quite well and I have no complaints from the two "Oh crap!" moments when people do stupid things. Brakes were starting to strain when I ran the 38.5"x15" tires but once at slower speed traction was more an issue than braking power with the bias ply tires. With the 35" radials I have no complaint, except traction in rain is poor, but that is to be expected with any off road tire.



As for the truck you're looking at, if it's a gasser I'd avoid it. My truck used to have a small block (351w) and it sucked for towing. Not enough torque. Towing is why I built the 460 for it. If it's a diesel, go for it. If the lift is done right you should be fine. If it uses blocks in the back, either do a shackle flip or replace the springs with lift springs. Blocks contribute to trailer sway particularly under hard braking and they will encourage wheel how and axle wrap under acceleration.
Old    Robby Elliott (Elliottsx80)      Join Date: Feb 2012       02-06-2013, 7:52 PM Reply   
buying the tires and fuel are def. the crappy end having a lifted tow truck. my tires are around 3000.00 a set and ive yet to have any of them last over 10-15,000 miles. last june i towed my x80 to brostock from oklahoma, up there and back i burned over 1000.00 just in fuel in my truck
Old    Robby Elliott (Elliottsx80)      Join Date: Feb 2012       02-06-2013, 7:54 PM Reply   
the rig
Attached Images
 
Old    Cory D (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       02-06-2013, 8:07 PM Reply   
I should add one pain in the butt of towing with a lifted truck is finding drop bars that go down low enough and are still strong enough. I think I run a 11" drop on mine. They're not cheap either, when you find the setup you need. You really gotta watch out for low quality stuff as there's so much leverage on these tall drops.

Elliott, I'm surprised with your diesel you only get half the MPG I do in my gasser. My buddies who tow with lifted diesels, mostly 7.3s are getting anywhere frmo low to high teens depending on truck and load. What trans are you running and what RPM in top gear at what typical towing speed? Unless you have a real tall overdrive gear or an over/under box you gotta be making that thing scream cruising at 80, for a diesel at least.
Old    Robby Elliott (Elliottsx80)      Join Date: Feb 2012       02-06-2013, 8:26 PM Reply   
456 gears with a allison. running 80 im its about 2k rpms. empty i get about 13-15mpg. but i can pull any head wind or hill here in oklahoma and my torque conv. never unlocks pulling my boat. i also have my chip set a 120hp. the boat loaded with gear, fuel, 800lbs of stereo bank batteries and all the other crap thats in it, my boat weights over 10,000lbs... ive yet to own or see a duramax get great fuel milage towing heavy loads, but i look past the mpg for the reliability and resale
Old    Robby Elliott (Elliottsx80)      Join Date: Feb 2012       02-06-2013, 8:34 PM Reply   
ive had a few lifted and chipped 7.3s long ago and those things where one of the best running trucks ive ever owned. and they did get great fuel milage. empty or towing. but they were also one of the roughest riding lifted truck iver owned! that straight axle with leaf springs where back breakers!
Old    Rob Fullerton (Gotmods)      Join Date: Nov 2012       02-06-2013, 10:15 PM Reply   
No worries what so ever!
Old    Axis22            02-07-2013, 2:46 AM Reply   
I have 35" tires on my tundra 5.7 and I get 12 mpg around town without trailer with trailer I get 10 mpg.
Old    Bill Smeltzer (runin90lx)      Join Date: Sep 2009       02-07-2013, 7:44 AM Reply   
Robbie. Why are you getting so little mileage out of your tires? My company truck had a leveling kit and we run 37" toyo open country I work in the oilfield so gravel roads and highway is all my truck sees. I pull a 18 ft trailer that when loaded with tools is pushing 7-8000 lbs. I have over 30,000 miles on my set of toyos and they still have about 1/3 of the tread left. I think I can easily get 50k miles out of them.
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       02-07-2013, 8:59 AM Reply   
My opinion on lifted trucks......the bigger they are, the worse they get at everything that you you need a truck for. I love the look of a huge lifted truck, but appearance is the only thing you gain. I like a leveled truck, or maybe a 3 inch lift max. Any bigger and it's a pain to park, load dirt bikes, and everything gets more expensive.
Old    Bill Smeltzer (runin90lx)      Join Date: Sep 2009       02-07-2013, 9:05 AM Reply   
Luckily indict have dirt bikes to load haha. Tires is my biggest concern, and I don't know they would cost much more ism comparison to 35" tires on a leveled or smaller lifted trjck
Old    Robby Elliott (Elliottsx80)      Join Date: Feb 2012       02-07-2013, 11:29 AM Reply   
Toyo just started making big tires for the 24 inch wheel, it use to be only Kumho and those things sucked. When I bought my m16s I was going to have to wait a extra week for the toyos. So I went ahead and got the m16s ( big mistake ) they wear like crap and not lasting any longer than a Kumho and they are crazy loud. I fixing to order the toyos, I've ran a ton of the mts in smaller sizes and loved them. I'm sure they will be great in a 37 on 24s
Old    Andy (michridr69)      Join Date: Dec 2008       02-07-2013, 12:06 PM Reply   
DO IT!! YOU WONT REGRET IT! I tow to the lake 3-4 times a week, would never go back to a stock height truck.
6" on 37's
Old    Bill Smeltzer (runin90lx)      Join Date: Sep 2009       02-07-2013, 12:11 PM Reply   
andy, thats a good looking truck. wish my wife liked dodge pickups more LOL.

what length drop hitch are you running?
Old    BLAIR BARHAM (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       02-07-2013, 12:18 PM Reply   
Andy

How bad is it with the soot getting it the boat with that stack in the bed. I've been looking at some diesels but I would always look away if the had a stack in the bed.
Old    Andy (michridr69)      Join Date: Dec 2008       02-07-2013, 12:19 PM Reply   
Thanks!! Ya not a dodge guy lol, cummins are easy to build. To be completely honest im not sure. I think a 6-8? i can pm you when i get home tonight.
Id take a f-250 over a dodge any day!!
Old    Andy (michridr69)      Join Date: Dec 2008       02-07-2013, 12:22 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonblarc7 View Post
Andy

How bad is it with the soot getting it the boat with that stack in the bed. I've been looking at some diesels but I would always look away if the had a stack in the bed.
Dont do it! No matter how light you touch the skinny pedal you will get some in her. I took it out after the first trip, not worth it IMO, I didnt get any build up of soot or any thing, i just didnt like seeing soot go near the boat.
Old    Bill Smeltzer (runin90lx)      Join Date: Sep 2009       02-07-2013, 12:26 PM Reply   
i know its extremely nit-picky but the one thing i dont like about the lifted truck besides expensive tires is that the wheels are chrome, and my trailer has custom black wheels on it. LOL
Old    Andy (michridr69)      Join Date: Dec 2008       02-07-2013, 12:29 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by runin90lx View Post
i know its extremely nit-picky but the one thing i dont like about the lifted truck besides expensive tires is that the wheels are chrome, and my trailer has custom black wheels on it. LOL
Like this? lol
Old    Bill Smeltzer (runin90lx)      Join Date: Sep 2009       02-07-2013, 12:30 PM Reply   
yeah ive thaught about if i get the truck selling the 24's and getting a set of black 20 or 22's
Old    Andy (michridr69)      Join Date: Dec 2008       02-07-2013, 12:34 PM Reply   
Ya tires would be almost half the price if you go down to 20"s. from 24"s
Old    BELEZA (beleza)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-10-2013, 8:08 PM Reply   
Anyone know what wheels those are? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Old    Rick Hoag (rickB52)      Join Date: Mar 2012       02-10-2013, 8:27 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by beleza View Post
Anyone know what wheels those are? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Fuel....
Old    Andy (michridr69)      Join Date: Dec 2008       02-11-2013, 6:47 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by beleza View Post
Anyone know what wheels those are? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
hostages....
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       02-11-2013, 12:37 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by runin90lx View Post
yeah ive thaught about if i get the truck selling the 24's and getting a set of black 20 or 22's
18's or 20's....no bigger unless you have 40" tires.... but that's just my opinion!
Old    Bill Smeltzer (runin90lx)      Join Date: Sep 2009       02-11-2013, 4:50 PM Reply   
22" wheels with 37" tires look great IMO
Old    Andy (michridr69)      Join Date: Dec 2008       02-11-2013, 6:26 PM Reply   
^ this is next but 22x14
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       02-11-2013, 10:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by michridr69 View Post
^ this is next but 22x14
SO WIDE! to each his own I guess
Old    Andy (michridr69)      Join Date: Dec 2008       02-12-2013, 6:16 AM Reply   
"Not my truck" but this is wicked, 37" on 22x14
Old    BLAIR BARHAM (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       02-12-2013, 6:32 AM Reply   
My buddy has that same set up on his duramax but it's 20 x 14 on 38 with the same style rim. It looks mean
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       02-12-2013, 7:00 AM Reply   
My problem with lifted vehicles is that I utilized the extra clearance and traction gained by a lift and a/t or m/t tires about .01% of the time that I owned them. 99% of that .01% of the time that I utilize those features, I shouldn't. In other words, why on earth would I take a diesel tow rig on trails? Hell, I just sold a lifted wrangler I had as a toy that I used once off road in a year. It was such a pain to drive on the street with Super Swampers on its that I just didn't drive it. The last two tow rigs I had that were lifted with big wheels and mtr's on them rode like poo, got terrible gas mileage, were hard to park, ate up brakes, were expensive to maintain, ate up ball joints and suspension parts like fat kids eat halloween candy, and were just plain hard to load stuff in and out of. Do big ass lifted tow rigs look awesome? Hell yeah they do! But, it's just a TON of money to dump into something that pretty much has no real world benefit. Not to mention, in addition to the cost of a lift, wheels, tires, fuel, gears, chips, exhaust, upgraded brakes, you end up losing your tail on resale in most cases.
Old    BLAIR BARHAM (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       02-12-2013, 7:46 AM Reply   
Chatt I usually agree with most of the stuff you post but its hard to lisen to somebody talk about something costing too much when as far as I can remeber you've had 3 230, 2 Axis A-22, and have a brand new LSV on order. Wouldn't it cost less if you just paid off one boat and kept it for more than 3 months intead of up grading tower speakers amps and steering wheels. LOL (all in good fun)
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       02-12-2013, 7:51 AM Reply   
My boats have been paid off since I switched from Nautique (including my on-order LSV).

You forgot about my prostar, '02 XStar, and '07 VLX. Hahahaha. To each their own. I just got tired of losing sooooo much damn money on my lifted tow rigs! Guess I'm a little bitter.
Old    BLAIR BARHAM (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       02-12-2013, 7:54 AM Reply   
I hate you so much right now lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Old    Andy (michridr69)      Join Date: Dec 2008       02-12-2013, 8:10 AM Reply   
Ok, im not following ya. Why dont you get a sea ray with a tower? becasue there just no as cool? Right. Instead you have a boat that costs more than double. Why? Beacause you can. And you love it! Thats why i will never buy a gasser tow veichle, noor leave a diesel un lifted, just my choice. Thats what i love.
And if your like to mod, The last thing im thinking about is resale lol.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       02-12-2013, 8:16 AM Reply   
Hahaha. Well, in fairness, a wakeboat produces a much nicer wake and gives you the ability to surf, which you don't get with a searay, but I digress.
Old    Jason Callen (westsidarider)      Join Date: Feb 2003       02-12-2013, 8:21 AM Reply   
I can't stand lifted trucks as not one person has their headlights adjusted causing you to blind every other driver out there. Should be illegal.
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       02-12-2013, 8:28 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsidarider View Post
I can't stand lifted trucks as not one person has their headlights adjusted causing you to blind every other driver out there. Should be illegal.

lifted trucks should be illegal? What about the guys in BMW's, Acuras...most new vehicles, with HIDs that shine in your eyes, should they be illegal too?
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       02-12-2013, 8:30 AM Reply   
Those HID's are a bitch.
Old    Bill Smeltzer (runin90lx)      Join Date: Sep 2009       02-12-2013, 8:31 AM Reply   
Chattwake....I can say I agree about you "losing" all the mods on a lifted truck. But that's if you buy the truck new and do it all yourself. In my case I'm looking at a 2012 with 20k miles on it and the lift, wheels/tires, programmer, etc is already done. So the big hickey is already been had. If I go through with the deal I'm basically getting a "like new" vehicle modded the way I want at used price. I've searched high and low on every truck site I could fin and this truck is selling for what all stock f250 are selling for.


For me personally, my only "obstacle" is spending that much on a truck that I will only drive maybe 2 or 3 times a week. It looks awesome, drives very well and as smooth as the stock f250 I compared it to and would look badass in front of my boat. Just pulling the trigger on a $50k truck is the hard part
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       02-12-2013, 8:40 AM Reply   
Well, if you're considering stock v. modded for the same price, it's a no brainer. The modded truck, while it may cost more to operate and maintain, will hold its value better, because the p/o already took the major depreciation hit.
Old    Andy (michridr69)      Join Date: Dec 2008       02-12-2013, 10:18 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsidarider View Post
I can't stand lifted trucks as not one person has their headlights adjusted causing you to blind every other driver out there. Should be illegal.
lol this guy^
Old    Andy (michridr69)      Join Date: Dec 2008       02-12-2013, 10:21 AM Reply   
Bingo, but its also fun to build your truck the way you want it, But you are correct about eating resale. And if I were to do it again i would do exactly like bill wants to do.
Old    Bill Smeltzer (runin90lx)      Join Date: Sep 2009       02-12-2013, 12:56 PM Reply   



these are the 2 trucks ive been looking at. the one with black wheels is a new 2012. it has leveling kit and all blacked out lights and fold down power steps. it doesnt have nav, heated cooled seats or backup camera. they are asking $58k for it.

the lifted one is 6" lift, fox shocks w/resevoirs, custom stereo, bully dog programmer, and fully loaded(nav, heated and cooled seats, backup camera, etc) i can get it for $49k if i buy this one i will be selling the 24" wheels and replacing them with 22" wheels that are on the other truck.
Old    Cory D (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       02-12-2013, 12:56 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by chattwake View Post
My problem with lifted vehicles is that I utilized the extra clearance and traction gained by a lift and a/t or m/t tires about .01% of the time that I owned them. 99% of that .01% of the time that I utilize those features, I shouldn't. In other words, why on earth would I take a diesel tow rig on trails? Hell, I just sold a lifted wrangler I had as a toy that I used once off road in a year. It was such a pain to drive on the street with Super Swampers on its that I just didn't drive it. The last two tow rigs I had that were lifted with big wheels and mtr's on them rode like poo, got terrible gas mileage, were hard to park, ate up brakes, were expensive to maintain, ate up ball joints and suspension parts like fat kids eat halloween candy, and were just plain hard to load stuff in and out of. ...
When you need the capabilities of a lifted truck, locked axles, etc. you just plain need it and anything less will not do. Some of us enjoy mudding or going out in the woods for trail rides. Some of us want to be able to travel in the event of a natural disaster, flooding, etc. That means a capable truck is required, and will at least give you a much better chance of being able to travel in adverse conditions should you need to.

I don't know how a lifted truck can be expensive to maintain, if you build one with suitable components for the intended use. I have been running the same brakes on my truck for years and plenty of meat left on them. Never broke a ball joint because I'm smart enough to run a king pin axle. Don't lift ball joint trucks, or if you do swap a solid kingpin axle under it and you won't have to worry about it. Not difficult to park, gas mileage I don't care about, but it does quite well towing at 10 MPG, not difficult to park, and I use mine as a work truck loading/unloading/hauling stuff several times a week. Dirt bikes and quads as well from time to time. I don't know what's so expensive about maintenance. Mine just plain works and it's rare to need to put any money into it aside from fluid changes and normal maintenance. I've broke my fair share of parts in the past, but they broke from flat out abuse and ignorance of what is required for a certain use, I don't make those mistakes anymore as it's cheaper to do it right the first time.

It's also my daily driver over 12k miles/yr. It rides like a truck, as it should. Put 2000+ lbs in the bed and it rides like a Cadillac. If you complain about a harsh ride, you're just being whiny and don't appreciate your tools. My truck is a tool, it does what I need it to and does it reliably. My boat is a tool as well as are any number of other things I own and use for various things.
Old    Andy (michridr69)      Join Date: Dec 2008       02-12-2013, 1:10 PM Reply   
Id go with the bottom loaded, one. Deffinatly bottom one if your going to change the wheels. The top one wont have a electronic rear locking diff. And no nav... no thanks. IMO of course lol
Old    Andy (michridr69)      Join Date: Dec 2008       02-12-2013, 1:12 PM Reply   
ps.. rip that bully dog off as soon as you get it and get your self an H&S.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       02-12-2013, 1:13 PM Reply   
Truck number one looks amazeballs, but it makes no sense to spend that much more for a truck without those options that you would use every single day.
Old    Bill Smeltzer (runin90lx)      Join Date: Sep 2009       02-12-2013, 1:21 PM Reply   
i definetly like the looks of truck 1!! but i can make truck 2 look the same pretty easily. the expensive part is the wheels. after that painting the bumpers and blacking out the lights can be done over time.
Old    Andy (michridr69)      Join Date: Dec 2008       02-12-2013, 3:38 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by chattwake View Post
Truck number one looks amazeballs, but it makes no sense to spend that much more for a truck without those options that you would use every single day.
^ wat im thinking
Old    BLAIR BARHAM (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       02-12-2013, 6:18 PM Reply   
I would do the bottom one, like you said it wouldn't take much to make it look like the first one. You could even plastic dip the front for a cheap quick fix to make it black

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