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Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       12-12-2012, 6:25 AM Reply   
Do you think malls and theaters and schools should have some sort of shooter back up plan?
I know schools are short on funds but malls and theaters I would think could afford to employee some sort of under cover special opp's or secrete service type of Securty that could be a first responder in the event of crazed gun man on a rampage.

Would you feel safer if you knew the place you were shopping or watching a movie at had a trained undercover first responder close by? Im not in favor or supporting troops with armor and machine guns marching around the mall or sitting next to you in the theater. I was thinking more of a undercover Air Marshall style guard that could possibly stall or prevent a mass shooting
Old     (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       12-12-2012, 7:07 AM Reply   
Would you feel safer if you knew the place you were shopping or watching a movie at had a trained undercover first responder close by?
I don't think I would, just for the fact an average mall is so big, I'll play the odds that if there is a shooter he wouldn't be unloading near me and if there was an undercover cop, he wouldn't be near the shooter or me if my life was in danger. I heard this guy killed two people and himself, I don't know if any undercover cop would have time to prevent any more deaths than that.... by the time first shots are fired those two are probably dead anyway (I think his gun jammed, so it could have been much worse, maybe if it wouldn't have jammed, a cop would have been useful).

The only way I could see it working would be the mental deterrent of the shooter knowing that there might be a cop nearby.
Old     (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       12-12-2012, 9:11 AM Reply   
This is a pretty rare occurance, however, when ones life is being threatened, I cannot imagine depending on or expecting someone else to attempt to stop a threat to your life by risking theirs. Lets face it, they have a family to take care of as well, and they have other factors to consider that may outweigh the risk to you.

The only person who has you and your family as the highest priority is you.

I do believe that any entity that legally bans a licensed weapon should be liable for your defense since they forbid you to defend yourself.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       12-12-2012, 9:43 AM Reply   
Thank goodness these shootings are Rare and this is not a everyday thing. But just imagine if some one with some with good gun skills and the will to do harm to a mass groupe could kill many many more people. In a busy mall during Holliday season or a packed theater it would be easy for a person to do a lot of damage . Just because this guy only killed 3 people doesn't say this doesn't have the potential to be or become a much larger crime. That god this guy seems to have gun problems and more people didn't get shot. And even if a undercover security person that got their late slowed down or stopped one person from being hurt or killed its worth it.
Old     (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       12-12-2012, 10:25 AM Reply   
I would feel even more comfortable if I could have my own concealed weapon permit to protect me and my own. The question is, do shooters like this guy think twice about opening fire in a public place knowing that the innocent also have guns. The question is.... would a crazy man walk into a theater with the intent to open fire if there were potentially 20 other people in the audience with firearms? I supposed if suicide is the desired end result, it wouldn't matter, but at least he could be dropped without having an unlimited amount of time to kill.
Old     (stephan)      Join Date: Nov 2002       12-12-2012, 12:28 PM Reply   
I read that this mall does have a contingency and they executed it well. Also the local police have a policy of getting in ASAP and not waiting for SWAT. Apparently this guy was shooting for less than 15 minutes. I just don't see how a theatre or mall could afford something like this. For one someone with that training will be well compensated and two how many people would be needed to secure a mall? 1? 20?

I just looked it up and Portland has a ban on CC. Super. The rest of Oregon is pretty open to it.
Old     (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       12-12-2012, 2:25 PM Reply   
Jarrod, it may or may not cause a nutjob to reconsider, but at least he has to think about it. When I think about the damage these nuts do, I think alot about the mechanics of shooting and how those mechanics are affected when fire is returned. I dont know how much shooting everyone has done, but hitting moving targets while on the move isnt exactly easy. It would be an interesting study to see shots fired vs. actual tissue impacts. i bet the percentage is rather low. Then I think if there was only one armed citizen in the position to defend himself with return fire, how much lower the hit rate would be, even if the citizen doesnt actually hit him.
Old     (SS_Hooke102)      Join Date: Sep 2011       12-12-2012, 2:57 PM Reply   
Things like this just reaffirm why i am getting my concealed in a few months here when i turn 21.
Old     (poser007)      Join Date: Nov 2004       12-12-2012, 5:07 PM Reply   
I have never shot a gun in my life but I can say that if I were in a mall and some maniac opened fire with a gun. I would rather run for my life then have 10 other guys pulling out guns and shooting all at once. I know that shooting my Beebe gun from 20 feet I rarely hit my target and that's with me taking my time and really taking aim. That being said I am all for the right to bare arms but just not sure I would want a bunch of Bruce Willis wannbe's pulling out their guns yelling yippe kiya mutha bleeper.
Old     (kenv)      Join Date: May 2002       12-12-2012, 7:19 PM Reply   
I agree with G...there could/should be some type of program in place. I think it would be more successful than individuals carrying. Strategic placement in the mall of these preventative cops COULD cover alot of area. I'm sure it has happened, but when was the last time you heard on the news or read on the Internet...someone carrying a conceled weapon stopping a shooter...not just a house break-in but a major public shooter??? Everybody talks a tough game about "If I were there" or "next time I'm packing" but the timing and places of all these mass shootings seem to be so fast and two steps ahead of anyone the could actually help. Honestly, there is little to be learned from what happened in CO and last night. I'm really surprised more people didn't get hit last night. When the bullets start flying from the bad guy, someone carrying might even get hit before they could reach and pull their weapon. All that being said, I hope if i'm ever in a situation like that, If anyone in the crowd does have a weapon, please pull it and be the best hero you can to put down the pos shooter.....
Old     (jetskiprosx)      Join Date: Aug 2004       12-12-2012, 8:00 PM Reply   
Jarrod - I was wondering the same thing. I think the people who do this type of thing are complete cowards and that's why they end their own lives a lot of the time. I could be wrong, but I think if even one person returned fire, it may (in some cases) be enough to make the gunman flee from the scene.

I live in Oregon and have my concealed carry permit. I carry everywhere I legally can just because I don't want to be the victim in a situation like this mall shooting. Most malls and movie theaters are 'gun free zones' but they don't display the correct legal signage and all they can do (if they find out you are carrying) is tell you to leave. If you leave no harm is done. If you don't you can be charged with trespassing. With that said, a lot of people with concealed carry permits take their guns to these places under the assumption that what they don't know (or in this case, can't see) won't hurt them
Old     (plhorn)      Join Date: Dec 2005       12-13-2012, 7:00 AM Reply   
I definitely don't want to arm mall cops. You have to consider what kind of person becomes a mall cop. Its not the sort of thing people plan for its more of a "I suck at everything I try, I guess I'll be a mall cop"

There were a bunch of rapes at an apartment complex my buddy was living at and when they caught the guy it turns out he was the security guy they hired to keep the place safe.

Arming idiots would add to the problem.
Old     (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       12-13-2012, 7:39 AM Reply   
when was the last time you heard on the news or read on the Internet...someone carrying a conceled weapon stopping a shooter
It happens more than you think, however, if a coward pulls a gun, and a citizen defends himself, more often than not the coward never gets off a shot, so technically, he isnt a shooter.

Also, look at the places these cowards apply their trade. Schools, theatres, malls, etc. Places where guns are forbidden by law or at the very least by owner. They want their victims to be defenseless.

Its funny how everyone who does not carry assumes anyone who would must be a Dirty Harry wannabe.
Old     (kenv)      Join Date: May 2002       12-13-2012, 10:33 AM Reply   
Plhorn...i don't think G was saying to arm the mall would be a more specialized training program and a status above a "Mall Cop" I dont' really think it happens more than you think..that is... a person with a concealed gun saving the day.. Show me a headline or a story where that has happened. Not saying it hasn't ...but not on a scale or a big massacre where it has or would have made a difference. I would LOVE to hear a headline where there was a shooter on campus and they got off a few shots but a teacher shot them. No fatalities reported...except for the scum. But that has not happened yet....even with everyone saying they are going to carry. Also, they are not picking malls, schools and theaters because they have "no gun" rules...they are just picking them because of the large amount of people in ONE place. The school shootings are usually done by a student that goes TO that school and has issues...not because students can't carry concealed weapons.
Old     (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       12-13-2012, 11:43 AM Reply

Here's two you can watch in action.
Old     (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       12-13-2012, 11:45 AM Reply   
Who knows how many lifes they saved. It could have been just one or it could have been twenty but they still stop something from happening that could have been real bad.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       12-13-2012, 12:21 PM Reply   
Shouldnt we always error on the side of safety when it comes to human life. It would be hard to argue that having a undercover Trained Armed person close by would at least slow down a gunman set on Mass Murder. Yes if a guy decides he is gonna try and take out a few people its going to be very hard to get or have some one to respond In the time it would take for a crazed Idiot to open fire on a few innocent people. Where I think a secret service style armed gaurd would help out is if a Gunman wanted to set up shop and walk threw the mall and kill a bunch of people. Lets say the 10 mins or so it would take for Swat or local police to arrive. A crazed person with a gun could take a lot of lives in that 10 mins. And as far as not being able to afford it I call BS. The rents Malls charge to the stores is crazy. If mall owners can't suck up this cost I call BS. Have any of you been to the Theater lately. It's $12 to sit down and watch a move. That's with out $7 popcorn! And $5 drink. All I can say is, when people decide they don't want to go to the malls or theaters because of any potential threat and the bottom line is effected THATS when you will see places like this take action. Malls depend on 50 to 70 % of they yearly sales during the Hollidays to make it threw the year I would make sure nothing effects the bottom line durning the busy
Old     (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       12-13-2012, 12:29 PM Reply   
I was going into a gamestop a few months back to buy something or another... standing in line was a guy with a holster on his side, gun clearly in it.... That is when conceal and carry made sense to me....

Had I got in to rob that place I would have certainly thought twice because I knew he had a gun - now given it wasn't concealed I would have just shot that guy first, but the thought anyone in that store could also have been carrying made it click for me.

My fear would be (in lets say a movie theater) you have 100 people watching a movie. Lets say 10% have guns and are trained to use them and carry them legally. One guy in there is planning to open fire on the theater. Leaving 89 other unarmed people. Maniac with a gun stands up and starts blasting, suppose all 10 people with guns want to stop him, so they start shooting, but see others shooting.... so they have a choice, shoot the other people shooting too assuming they're in on the attack, or assume they're helping too. So now instead of a gun flying around you have 11 guns all not knowing who is who, which to me means there is that much more chance of someone else getting shot/killed on accident.
Old     (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       12-13-2012, 12:47 PM Reply   
Nick: That's a good question and Interesting scenario, and with out trying to over simplify it and sound like a jerk,

If you canít tell who opened fire first and is shooting innocent people and canít decide who to shoot then you maybe shouldn't be carrying a gun.

But I see your point, in a dark theater especially in a movie where there might be a gun shooting seen I see your point, There is a high chance of confusion. Where did the shot come from was it from the movie or a real person? I get it. Even with that scenario I would still take my chances with more people CCW permits

Thanksgiving weekend a local Prison Guard walked into a Theater in Sonora, It was legal for him to carry
He had a side arm. Before he sat down he adjusted his gun on his side and it went off. It shot into an arm rest of a seat. Whoopís this was before the movie started. He announced who he was and what had happened and walked out. The cops showed up and "Took His Gun" in the voice of Homer Simpson DíOH!

link to story
Old     (lugwrench)      Join Date: Jul 2002       12-13-2012, 2:37 PM Reply   
I go back and forth on this one Grant. I think a movie theater is an outlier in terms of shooting like this. Unless you've had extensive CQB training with your weapon, I would bet that 99% of CPL holders would be useless in the movie theater scenario. In fact, I think more people would end up getting hurt. That turd who shot up the movie theater couldn't have picked a better (or worse) place. Dark with occasional flashing light, uneven ground, packs of people, and the worst part, your mind isn't in your surroundings, it's in Gotham city, or whatever movie you so pick. It would take time for your senses to kick in and get acclimated to your new dangerous environment, by that time, people are up running around a screaming. So unless the CPL holder has trained in these complex exercises, no amount of Die Hard marathons will prepare him/her.

Which brings up another point, how many CPL holders do you know that actually regularly practice? I know several that never shot a hand gun before the class, got their license and ever since have never practiced, or they've done stationary 7 yard targets for about 20 rounds. Out of 10 or so CPL holder that I know, I would bet only 3 have fired a round in the past 3 months. You put 10 CPL holders in a movie theater when a loon starts shooting, and I bet there would be a pile of spent brass all of the floor and nothing but movie screen hit or worse, other civilians.

Last edited by lugwrench; 12-13-2012 at 2:38 PM. Reason: spelling
Old     (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       12-14-2012, 10:55 AM Reply   
Another example today....

but today's is much different, an elementary school!? All the conceal and carry in the world wouldn't have helped this unless the teachers were packing heat (which is unlikely).

Zero guns (which is an impossible anyway) on the other hand would have just meant the ******** who did this pipe bombs the school.

I think today is a great example of one thing.... all the laws in the world cannot protect from stupid/*******s.

Last edited by sidekicknicholas; 12-14-2012 at 10:57 AM.
Old     (Gotmods)      Join Date: Nov 2012       12-16-2012, 8:27 AM Reply
Old     (rubin)      Join Date: May 2006       12-18-2012, 12:00 PM Reply   
Originally Posted by kenv View Post
but when was the last time you heard on the news or read on the Internet...someone carrying a conceled weapon stopping a shooter...not just a house break-in but a major public shooter???
You just dont hear about it. A ccw quite possibly stopped the Portland mall shooting.
Old     (rubin)      Join Date: May 2006       12-18-2012, 12:05 PM Reply   
Mass Killings Stopped by Armed Citizens

There are several documented cases where armed citizens have stopped mass attacks by gunmen. Let me list a few: The Pearl, Mississippi school shooting was stopped by the vice principal Joel Myrick with a Colt .45, The Appalachian School shooting was stopped by two students with handguns. Both of the above incidents were stopped by the armed citizens threatening the shooter without firing.

Pearl High School Link

Appalacian Law School Link

Plans to slay everyone in the Muskegon, Michigan, store and steal enough cash and jewelry to feed their “gnawing hunger for crack cocaine” fell apart for a band of would-be killers after one of their victims fought back.

Muskegon Shooting Link

The mass church shooting in Colorado Springs was stopped by the shooter being shot by a church member with a CCW permit.

New Life Church Link

The Santa Clara gunshop shooting in 1999 was stopped by an armed citizen after the shooter declared that he was going to kill everyone. Police found a list of intended victims in his car. Only the perpetrator, Richard Gable Stevens was shot.

Santa Clara Gunshop Link

The December, 1991, Aniston, Alabama defense where a CCW holder stopped armed robbers who were herding employees, customers, and his wife into a cooler. He shot both robbers, killing one.

Aniston Shoney’s Shooting Link

July 13, 2009, in Virginia at the Golden Food Market: The gunman tried to shoot several people, was stopped by a CCW carrier.

Golden Food Market Shooting Link

Just recently, in Early Texas, armed citizen Vic Stacy shot and stopped a deranged man who had just murdered two neighbors and was firing at police with a rifle. Stacy made a very long shot with his revolver, three times as far as the perpetrator was from the police officer, who had an AR-15 type rifle.

Early Texas Peach House Shooting Link

That sounds like a very good story… but it never made the national news.

I wonder who made the decision to spike that story.

Of course, when a mass shooting is stopped by an armed citizen, there are not as many victims. This leads to the charge that it would not really have been a “mass shooting”.
Old     (plhorn)      Join Date: Dec 2005       12-19-2012, 3:23 PM Reply   
In all the case of "mass killings stopped by armed citizens" cited above there would have been less deaths if there weren't any guns in the first place.
Old     (kenv)      Join Date: May 2002       12-20-2012, 10:55 AM Reply   
Yeah...I guess it is kinda of a catch 22....if someone stops a's not going to make big news....If a shooter does kill a bunch....we will hear about. answer G's original question.....YES....I would feel a whole lot safer if there was some type of armed "Movie Marshall"...or "Mall Marshall" present.
Old     (rubin)      Join Date: May 2006       12-20-2012, 11:03 AM Reply   
Originally Posted by plhorn View Post
In all the case of "mass killings stopped by armed citizens" cited above there would have been less deaths if there weren't any guns in the first place.
Pretty sure no one got drunk during prohibition either
Old     (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       12-20-2012, 2:04 PM Reply   
Problem with everyone who is all for more guns and conceal and carry is this:

* Argument is made that criminals will have guns no matter what, so don't stop LAW ABIDING CITIZENS FROM HAVING THEM, let these good people stop the bad guys

* Malls, theaters, bars, restaurants, etc etc etc almost ALWAYS ban weapons from their property, they have the right to do this..... so a good LAW ABIDING CITIZEN would NOT bring their gun there anyway. This means when the bad guys show up breaking the law, no one will still legally have a gun in that given place.
Old     (westsidarider)      Join Date: Feb 2003       12-20-2012, 3:33 PM Reply   
^true but if said ccw individual left their gun in the car, obeying the law, I'm sure no one would have a problem if that individual ran out to fetch the weapon and brought it back in to make an attempt to stop the criminal while waiting for the proper authorities to arrive
Old     (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       12-21-2012, 6:07 AM Reply   
^true but if said ccw individual left their gun in the car, obeying the law, I'm sure no one would have a problem if that individual ran out to fetch the weapon and brought it back in
Doesn't that sort of negate the purpose of having it on you to stop a baddie in a hurry?
... maybe it is just me, but if I escape the mall to my car while a shooter is going crazy, it is very doubtful I'm running my ass back in there.


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