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Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       07-07-2012, 7:04 PM Reply   
Just wondering what propellers EPIC 23v owners and previous owners are using for props.

My OJ 14.25x14 had a vibration under acceleration about 3,000+ RPM. I recently hit the bottom and had it repaired, but the vibration is worse. While I was waiting for the prop repair I purchased a 14x20 Michigan Wheel Ambush. The latter prop is no stump-puller, but is smooth as silk and performs reasonably well for both surfing and wakeboarding. The top-end speed is way too fast for the hull design, so I will probably keep this prop as the back-up. i just purchased an ACME 1239 (14x15.5) and I hope it will be as smooth as the Ambush. I am sure it will have enough jam to pull our normal load of about 3-4K since the 14x20 can doing it with a bit of struggle.

Has anyone noticed vibration or noise when changing to larger propellers like the Acme 1235?

Does your trailer have clearance to run a larger prop? The Zieman has barely enough room for the 14". You can tell where one of the previous owners had hit the steel running it on to the trailer!
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       07-07-2012, 7:39 PM Reply   
Who repaired the prop for you? I had a local shop repair mine and heard that they don't balance them after they fix em...next time i damaged it I sent it directly to ACME......NIGHT AND DAY DIFFERENCE. The prop from ACME was super smooth, I hadn't realized how bad the vibration was on the prop when it was repaired locally....

ACME was great to deal with, give them a call!
Old    Serge Thibault (silverthunder)      Join Date: Sep 2007       07-08-2012, 6:10 AM Reply   
Hi Frank!

Your experience is very interesting... I knew the Epic with the 8.1l was running not enough pitch on the prop. The RPM is way high at 3800-4000 with +- 2500lb at 23.5 mph and it is waisting a lot of fuel.

I was looking at putting a 14x16 prop to try to lower the RPM and increase the fuel economy.

What was you drop in RPM at around 23mph and did you notice a difference in fuel economy with the 14x20?

And please keep us posted with your results (14x15.5)
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       07-08-2012, 7:42 AM Reply   
Serge,

You are right; a lot of other boats were sold with 17.5 pitch props with smaller motors. Of course, they did not have the ballast we have either.

Wakeboard RPM with front 3/4 full, left 1/4 and right 1/8 was between 2600-3000 depending on trim at 20 mph. 3 people in the boat and one on the hook. You could hear the engine pulling back when lowering the trim toward 70%. I wasn't to concerned about the wake shape, but as the trim was about 25% - 40% the lips were reasonably clean. Having 2 riders out at the same time (spray games) made no difference in performance or feel. A few weeks ago I had 8 in the boat and another 3k in the ballast. That was my comment about it struggling a bit.

Surf RPM was lower as well. I believe the 14 pitch was about 3100 rpm once stabilized. The 20 pitch was about 2800. 11 mph. Rear surf side full, front full, opposite 1/8-1/4 (as you know, it is hard to tell unless you fill by time).

Due to family commitments, I won't get a chance to report back on the new prop for a couple of weeks.

Yes, fuel economy did improve. Now if I could only spend less on the fuel getting to the lake!

Last edited by Iceberg; 07-08-2012 at 7:46 AM.
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       07-10-2012, 7:25 AM Reply   
Here is a shot of the wake, PP and trim. 21.5 mph and 750 lbs of ballast 14x20 prop. I need a photo monkey to lay on the deck to show the depth of the wake. Obviously much larger with more weight, but more speed required.



Last edited by Iceberg; 07-10-2012 at 7:30 AM. Reason: forgot prop size
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       07-10-2012, 3:17 PM Reply   
I just got an email back from Eric at OJ Props. He suggest the 14.75 X 15.5 LC 1 1/8" XMP EDGE 4-blade for the Epic 23V with the 8.1l. I guess I will have to measure to see if that one would fit. I thought 14.25 - 14.5 diameter would be the max from my crude first measurement. I was a bit surprised he did not recommend the 5 blade. I guess those must work better for the higher revving 5.7l engines.

Last edited by Iceberg; 07-10-2012 at 3:23 PM. Reason: sp
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       07-10-2012, 4:01 PM Reply   
Make sure your shaft is aligned properly too. If you hit something hard enough to take out the prop, you may have an alignment issue that is causing the vibration.
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       07-10-2012, 5:39 PM Reply   
Timmy, the vibration was cured with a new prop. I have about 10 hours on it . I put the old one on for about 2 hours again last week just to confirm the vibration was unacceptable. On my boat, the space between the prop and the strut is just over 1/8"; the strut would have bent before the shaft was damaged. I believe the newer Epics have a slightly longer shaft. None of these stick out as far as other boats.

I just checked the spacing. Yup, a 14.75" or 15" diameter would fit. It would make a great hole-shot. However, I would have to modify my trailer bed height because the larger prop would definitely hit the steel guard. Remember mine is a 2007 set-up.
Old    Joe Sellhausen (joesell)      Join Date: Apr 2001       07-30-2012, 4:29 PM Reply   
Did you ever get that new prop? How does it work?
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       07-30-2012, 5:19 PM Reply   
Yes, I put it on and it looks pretty. I was suppose to get out on the past weekend, but the best laid plans can get screwed up - I sold my truck! My newer one (2007 F-250 diesel) should show up on Wednesday or Thursday. We plan on getting out later this week. My wife says the look of the new boat and truck together will be "sweet". Report to follow.

Old    Michael Catalano (roadrunner71)      Join Date: Mar 2012       08-29-2012, 8:37 AM Reply   
How well does that 14.75 prop fit? How is the speed with the 15.5 pitch? I was thinking of trying the same prop if it works out for you. I have an 09' that I bought and it currently has a 13.5x19 but it feels like it is slipping in the water a lot. I borrowed my buddy Eppie's 14.25x14 stock prop and it pulled a lot better but I would like a couple more mph for cruising.
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       08-29-2012, 8:42 PM Reply   
I finally got back out...

Due to the trailer clearance, I can not run the larger propeller, but I did put the 14x15.5 on for today's runs. The pics are below. You can run up to max RPM at just over 36mph but it will porpoise without at least 50% trim. As expected, the RPM was higher than the 20 pitch prop. The hole-shot was better with heavier ballast for wakeboarding. The most noticeable thing was the trim to clean up the wake with no ballast (4 people in the boat) at 75%.

No real difference was noted while surfing, except the surf wave was not as good today, small pocket and the wave had less push.
______________
No ballast - 22 mph - 75% trim. RPM 3130



Ballast about 50% in all 3. Trim just under 50%

Old    Tyler Smith (smitty1258)      Join Date: Jun 2009       09-01-2012, 8:29 PM Reply   
Frank give 65% in driver and 40-45% in pass a try, with nothing in the nose and trim plate just over half, curious to see if you get the same results as me.

For some reason Ive always put ballast in the nose, which makes my wake more sensitive, this past week we tried only the the sides, and its turned out to be MONEY! Ill get some photos as well
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-05-2012, 7:12 AM Reply   
I'll give it a try next time out. We went out on Monday, but like the day of the pic above, a bit windy so we surfed most of the day. Same set-up as usual, front almost full and surf-side full, off-side empty, but the wave was very good with a fairly long pocket with the trim at about 60%. A friend took some pics and video. When I get a copy I will post a link. The rollers we create are huge! When we turn back for a pic-up you have to wait for the wave to pass or you might get a few gallons over the nose.

FYI, for the lurkers wondering about rear speakers, when we cut to idle, the wash does not hit the speakers. Rather than driving, I was sitting on the back helping a surfer and watching the water come over the platform when we would stop, but it always stayed below the speakers by an inch or 2. They did they get a bit wet, but no rush of water hitting them.

The FAE is a superb system to keep the fumes down. You never notice the exhaust unless you sit for a while in one spot with the engine running.

Outside of the mods made by the previous owner, the next project would be to make the seats open on a cantalever hinge. As well, the center hatch really needs a drain plug for the odd-roller that comes over the bow.
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-11-2012, 8:09 AM Reply   
Thought I would add the starboard surf wave picture. The surfable area was quite long. As expected, if you turn it gets very tall and more powerful. The port side remained very steep with curl.

Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       09-11-2012, 8:35 AM Reply   
Frank, your boat does have a drain plug below the bow center hatch - problem is that it drains into the front ballast tank so if you have water in there already - you can't leave it open. I'm still wondering about the prop issue though - my rpm is at 3700 at 22mph and the boat is using a lot of gas (and I mean a LOT).

I'll take some pictures tonight so we can somewhat compare ...
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-11-2012, 9:46 AM Reply   
The bilge water always creeps into the cooler hatch from fore and aft. I need to lay down some new silicone to seal it if I want to use it as a cooler. I believe most of the water comes from the aft; any wave over the bow (I try to avoid those) always flows at great speed to the driver's feet and rear floor. The bow water only happens at full front ballast, with people in the bow and turning too quickly back into the wake on the low side. Stop, wait, turn! There is no risk of submarining like most of the other big brand boats.

RPM. As you know, there is little requirement to go heavy all the time when wakeboarding with the EPIC. Drop the weight and the RPM improves. I believe the highest RPM once stable at 50-50-50 ballast was around 3400 with the trim 60-70%. Based on what I am seeing now for boat response, a 15.5 or 16 pitch is probably the best size for this boat with the 8.1l engine's torque, especially if you want to run heavier ballast while boarding. I will not be going back to a 14 pitch prop. As I said before, for lighter weights, an even courser prop (17-18) works fine, running at lower rpm with less fuel consumption. The 20 pitch was a bit of a dog with heavy ballast, but performed well for less ballast wakeboarding and very well for surfing with heavy ballast.

I believe the rooster-tail you see is from the FAE. I might take it off just to see if it changes things, but for now it is just a thought.

Last edited by Iceberg; 09-11-2012 at 9:51 AM. Reason: typo
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       09-11-2012, 1:21 PM Reply   
there's actually an easier way to turn it around - after rider falls - go into neutral and turn the steering the opposite way (assuming that you're always going in a slight circle). The wave coming from behind pushes now the boat around and then you idle back to pick the rider up. That protects the low side from being washed over and helps turning as it really turns lousy - that hasn't improved at all from 2007 to 2011 ;-) The water still flows immediately into the driver area if you take some on - so shop vac is the only solution afterwards.

Not going heavy - too scared ;-) but the RPM is still pretty high compared to what you show on your dash - I'll take pictures tonight so I can compare. I tried to get a hold of OJ props - sent them a PM via wakeworld but never got a response. Was actually thinking about getting the 5 blade prop everybody was raving about but w/o input from OJ I"m not getting anywhere.

Rooster tail is common for all Epics - others will confirm - some were guessing because of the dual rudder system but I don't know - it just has it - with or w/o the FAE
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       09-12-2012, 9:48 AM Reply   
will have to post video link somewhere else from yesterday - was very windy but confirmed a few things: With the standard prop I'm running 3350 to 3480 at 22mph (tail vs. head wind conditions) with minimal ballast (front empty, right almost empty, left about 30% full), tab at about 25%. So lowering the RPM would help ...
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-13-2012, 8:18 AM Reply   
Eric at OJ returned my email in late June, his recommendation was to go to a 14.75" x 15.5 pitch 4 blade (see above). We have the torque and HP at a lower RPM, so no advantage to a 5 blade. The trailer limited me in diameter. As well, I got a nearly new Acme 1939 - 14 x 15.5 for $300 on the Bu site.

Turns quicker (albeit slow) to the right. No water ever over the rails if you let the 2 waves pass before turning greater than 90 degrees. If you ever look way off to the side on a reverse the double ups can be huge. It's like watching rollers break in the ocean at the reef! The real-tubers and ex-tubers are drooling every time.

Last edited by Iceberg; 09-13-2012 at 8:20 AM. Reason: typo
Old    Fred (olmoomba)      Join Date: Apr 2010       09-18-2012, 2:30 PM Reply   
time for me to chime in. The set up I've had, I've had since the beginning. Sept 07.

OJ 14 x 14.25 1 1/8". I never had an issue with fuel consumption or the rpms run with this set up.

I have recently changed to the Acme 1433 which is the same 14 x 14.25.
The major differences noticed were:
no vibration, ever
Quicker hole shot
Steady speed with Perfect Pass/Nautic Logic.

Now I haven't gone and turned this into a science project...yet. But I will take some notes this week when I ride after work, one of these days. I will try to give you some RPM's and the parameters I took them. I took note of them this past weekend, I just didn't record the parameters.

As for your photo monkey - get a gopro with a seat post mount and mount it to the grab bar.

This was 1/4 rear, 1/4 front, 0% trim, 11.0 mph and 400lbs/500lbs people, the rider is 13 and stands at around 5'4"
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-18-2012, 4:42 PM Reply   
The grab bar certainly has a front /rear row seat! What I would like to do with this wave is to get it larger, with less break at the top. If it is warm enough this week-end (was 32 last night) we were going to add a fat sack to the rear locker and see what we get.
Old    Fred (olmoomba)      Join Date: Apr 2010       09-19-2012, 6:41 AM Reply   
If you put another sack in the rear, be sure to put more weight up front to offset all the rear weight. I've played with the trim tab and higher in % (lower the plate) the more washy it gets, so I leave it at less than 15% to basically 0.

Good luck.

We plan to spend our entire sat doing nothing but surf, so I will get to play with it again. I used to have pretty dialed in but got away from surfing, now my old bones love it again.
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-30-2012, 6:40 PM Reply   
It might be the last time out before the over-night temperatures force us to winterize the boat. We have frost nearly ever night now!

We went out today and after 2 weeks of cold weather, the water temp was cold!. We only surfed today, but we added a fat-sac to the surf side and played a bit with the ballast.

Set-up: Surf-side full plus about 4-500. Offside nearly empty. Front about 2/3 full. 11.5mph. Trim 75-100%. 3130 rpm. 2 in the boat (driver and a child) and one on the wave. Straight-line wave was great. With more people in the boat there would be no reason to add the extra ballast. I got the first 180 down, now all I have to do is get part 2.

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