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Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       08-08-2014, 11:52 PM Reply   
Not wanting to hijack the tow vehicle thread, I've decided to ask why there are so many Ford faithful people here. I know of four different friend's Fords that were lemon law'd in the past four years. Two were owned by the same guy and he just bought another one!

One of the other guys I mentioned just bought another new one too. A 2014-and he just blew the motor while towing his fifth wheel a few weeks ago! They replaced the motor under warranty of course but now his whole cab squeaks since they had to remove it to remove the motor. Here's my question and reason for posting: What the heck is wrong with Fordies??? Does Ford offer some secret thing that no one else has that is worth the reliability factor? I sure hope they do because otherwise, y'all are fools... Please enlighten me. I'm just a simple guy that owned a 2003 Ram CTD for eleven years with 210K miles and only had to replace a water pump. THAT'S IT. I genuinely want to know what is so special about a Ford that makes it worth the hassle and risk. I understand they have a little more horsepower but it ain't near enough in my mind to mitigate the lack of reliability. Are people just ignorant of the service history of these trucks? Is that why they keep selling so strong? Is it a style issue? Btw, I'm talkin diesel only here. If we're talkin gas, I'm a Chevy man.
Old    Aric Brabec (aricsx15)      Join Date: Jan 2014       08-09-2014, 12:30 AM Reply   
Because every Ford blows up..... lol. My ford hasnt blown a motor, no ford owner I know hasnt blown a motor.
Old    Aric Brabec (aricsx15)      Join Date: Jan 2014       08-09-2014, 1:55 AM Reply   
Has blown*

Every truck has quirks. My old boss has put probably 400k on his last 3 psd's and beats the piss out of them towing huge john deer skid steers, and hasnt had any problems. my buddys 2011 ctd has fried 2 ecms and has left him stranded. I have no brand bias, ive had em all. (Except the non American trucks) and the only one that sucked was the dodge. Worst pos ive ever owned. The dash would crack if you put a quarter on it
Old    Tim (Tims)      Join Date: Feb 2014       08-09-2014, 4:04 AM Reply   
^^^^To the OP. Do you have any data to support your assumptions on reliability regarding Ford trucks? All the brands have potential to blow up.
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-09-2014, 4:49 AM Reply   
I was a Snap On tool dealer on the Motor Mile in Richmond Va for 27 years. At one time I had 2 Ford dealerships,4 GM dealerships,2 Mopar dealerships as well as one of just about every Japanese and European manufacturer. I've seen lots of engine failures in "Every" brand out there. I also saw more transmission failures in GM and Mopar dealers than the other dealers.Ford has had the number 1 selling truck for the past 37 years because that's what the consumers want. GM and Mopar are still trying. Everyone has an opinion on this subject but numbers don't lie. Ford trucks #1 for the last 37 years. The people have spoken.
Old    David Langston (rdlangston13)      Join Date: Feb 2011       08-09-2014, 6:12 AM Reply   
Never heard of a Ford diesel blowing up either. I have heard of oil leaks and such but my buddies cummins went through 2 high pressure fuel pumps so its far from flawless.
Old     (TN_Jeeper)      Join Date: Jun 2014       08-09-2014, 6:37 AM Reply   
I don't know if Ford gives you anything quantifiable the others don't and if Toyota makes a real one ton diesel I might be tempted to give it a shot. I had a last gen Tundra and it was one hell of a 1/2 ton truck.

That said I have had 6 Ford Diesels over the years. 2 7.3's, 2 6.0's, 1 6.4, and now a 6.7.

In over 800,000 total miles I never had any major problems with any of the trucks. Some spent a lot of time hauling, some just had highway miles. They have all been great which certainly makes me lean towards Ford when it comes time for a new one.

However, it really comes down to looks, features, comfort, etc. I am not brand loyal and really believe that all the big 3 diesel trucks are a quality products, but every time I spend more than a few minutes in one, I always end up liking the Ford best.

I am not going to argue "my friend had this problem" or "I know somebody who had this happen" about any of the brands. Like every boat brand on here there are people in each one who have horror stories and many,many more who never have issues. When you say "service history" what are you referring to? Go on any of the major brand forums and you will hear horror stories but that doesn't mean anything in real numbers.

Last edited by TN_Jeeper; 08-09-2014 at 6:44 AM. Reason: edit
Old    Brian (Ewok01)      Join Date: Apr 2013       08-09-2014, 7:08 AM Reply   
I like Ford for no other reason than they didn't need or take a govt bailout.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       08-09-2014, 7:36 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewok01 View Post
I like Ford for no other reason than they didn't need or take a govt bailout.
Ford Motor Credit sure relied on a lot of $$$ from the Fed tho. http://dailyreckoning.com/the-half-t...he-half-truth/

One wonders if GM would've needed a bailout if it had access to similar credit.

Doesn't matter now, it's water under the bridge.
Old    August (augie_09)      Join Date: Mar 2011       08-09-2014, 7:40 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewok01 View Post
I like Ford for no other reason than they didn't need or take a govt bailout.

Agreed.

I know all vehicles now days are assembled in the us, and parts can come from anywhere, but our f150 was made in our home town. I like the stamp on the dash that says 'made in Kansas City'.

6 friends and myself have had f150's, no blown engines, lol
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       08-09-2014, 7:44 AM Reply   
Aric- I didn't say every Ford blows up. In fact, I only know of that one I mentioned. Tim- no data. Just my observations of friends and others with them. Robert- I'm well aware of Ford's popularity. No one can touch them. TN-"service history" meant their (in my mind) history of issues with multiple injector problems, lift pump problems etc. The list goes on. I thought everyone knew this. Maybe it's just in my world...
Old    August (augie_09)      Join Date: Mar 2011       08-09-2014, 7:45 AM Reply   
I do remember when I decided to buy an f150 vs other options. We towed 2 malibu's, both 21ft sv23 hulls, same hilly road trip, one behind a Chevy and one behind ford, comparable years and models. By end of trip, the Chevy transmission smelled like burning, ford did not. I bought a ford few months later, been happy since, 5 years and a 100k miles later.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       08-09-2014, 7:49 AM Reply   
August- actually, the heavy duty Rams are hecho en Mexico and like I said In the original post, I'm only talkin about diesels.
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-09-2014, 8:25 AM Reply   
I worked for Ford for several years at the number one truck dealer in our state. We sold loads of diesels. I personally sold over a couple hundred. I didn't have one customer lemon law their truck. Were they all flawless? Nope, the 6.0 and 6.4 have well documented issues but I never heard of one just blowing up and again no lemon Laws from my customers. To be fair I did see a few through the dealership over the 7 years I worked there. If you have 4 friends that have Lemon Lawed their rigs you have the most unlucky friends on the planet.
Old    Chase Griggers (Griggs24)      Join Date: Oct 2013       08-09-2014, 8:27 AM Reply   
I have put 180K hard miles on my 08 6.4 with minimal issues. Power stealing gear box went out but the motor, trans, & transfer case still pull great. I also average 15 MPH towing. No oil leaks! Guess I just got lucky because I know a lot of 6.4's that didn't make it 80K before the head studs stretched and started blowing oil.
Old    Ryan K (FastR3DN3K)      Join Date: Jun 2013       08-09-2014, 10:39 AM Reply   
I guess I'll be the first to speak from experience. I've owned or driven 1/2 ton and HD trucks from all three. Personally owned a 95 F-150 5.0, 96 F-250 7.3, 05 Chevy 1500 Z-71 5.3, 08 Dodge 1500 4.7, and now a 12 Dodge 3500 CTD. Also had company trucks that were a 2003 6.0, 2008 6.4, and 2011 6.7 Ford PSD, and a 2008 6.6 Duramax. Of all those trucks, the Dodges were the most reliable and comfortable.

The Fords were OK because they were cheap in their fleet truck setup, but you couldn't keep a motor in them that wouldn't burn up, especially once they went to the DPF systems. The 7.3 was fantastic, only ever had to replace a water pump and a universal joint on the driveshaft. It was a workhorse for our family business and never missed a beat. I sold that truck to a buddy of mine in 2004 with 375K miles on it and it's still going strong to this day with close to 500K on it. Only thing I know of that needs replacing on it is a new drivers seat because there is literally no cushioning left in it. The 6.0 was a gutless POS that didn't have enough power and could barely get out of it's own way. The 6.4 I had was the worst of all of them, nearly burning a car next to me down in the WalMart parking lot because the exhaust was so hot from the DPF cycle (it ended up melting the paint off their rear quarter panel, my company had to pay for the repair, and replaced the truck with the Chevy). And the 6.7 started out great, was strong and quiet. But once I got around 20-25,000 miles on it, it sounded like someone had poured a box of gravel and hammers into the motor it was so damn noisy, and as the miles added up it quickly lost a lot of it's power. Also had a ton of issues with the throttle position sensors and the DPF/DEF system in it. It had 55,000 miles on it when I got rid of it and it had been in the shop 7 times to have the exhaust/emission garbage worked on.

The Duramax was probably the most comfortable interior of all of them, but it lack serious towing power and squatted hard under heavy loads. Also had a lot of issues with the 4wd system in it since it was all electronic. It would either pop fuses or throw ECM codes every time I used it. The 1500 I had was just as bad when it came to towing, bottoming out on the axle constantly, but it had the manual 4wd shifter, so no issue there. But I couldn't keep knock sensors from going bad in it constantly, new ones usually lasted until the first hard rain or first wash, and would crap out as soon as water got into the engine compartment (even with the hood closed). Put a new set in and had the codes cleared for 24 hours and decided to sell it because it was such a piece of junk.

The Dodges I had were perfect. Bought the 08 1500 brand new in January 09, put 50,000 trouble free miles on it. Averaged 23 mpg out of it, 19 if I was hauling my motorcycle in the back. I drove from Austin, TX to Bossier City, LA and back every other week and never once had a single issue. Only problem with the truck when I sold it was a cracked windshield (my fault). No cracked dash, no transmission issues, no computer issues, nothing. I loved it so much that after I sold it and went through a couple other vehicles, I decided that another Dodge was the only way to go. Picked up my 3500 CTD MC in June 2012 and have had zero issues other than the tie rod recall.

With all that being said, 99% of the time it comes down to the owner and how they take care of their vehicles. I baby every vehicle I own, including my work trucks. None of my diesels ever got past 5000 miles without getting an oil change, 3000 in my 1/2 tons. New air filters every other service, and a transmission flush/service every 20,000 because of all the towing I do. I did not do any major power adders either, only flowmasters on my 1/2 tons, and K&N replacement filters on all of them. Even with my meticulous maintenance and care, the Dodges have been the most reliable bar none. The Fords have been the absolute worst, and are not getting any better. Regardless of bailouts or financial situations, you couldn't pay me to take another Ford no matter how nice it is. My wife owns a Tahoe right now and has been a Chevy girl all of her life, but with the problems that all of her Chevys have had, even she is looking at the Ram 1500 EcoDiesel or the Jeep Grand Cherokee EcoDiesel.

Last edited by FastR3DN3K; 08-09-2014 at 10:43 AM.
Old    J (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       08-09-2014, 10:44 AM Reply   
Every truck has it's quirks. Pick your poison.
At least if you stick with the same truck/brand, you have knowledge and know what you're in for.
Vs flopping around brand to brand, starting the learning process over.
I'm assuming that's a similar reason as to why people stick with the same brand of boats?
Old    Ryan K (FastR3DN3K)      Join Date: Jun 2013       08-09-2014, 10:53 AM Reply   
And for whoever said they had never seen a Ford "blow up", I have. My father-in-law (consensus is that he's a raging alcoholic, *******, and idiot) blew up his 07 PSD. His dumb ass added a Banks tuner and didn't do any motor bulletproofing, and kept the tuner on the highest setting. He got drunk one night and decided to show out, ended up stretching the head studs and cracking the heads, and blew out the turbo completely. It was and absolute mess. Replaced the head studs (didn't bother with fixing the heads), put a salvage turbo on, and pulled the tuner, and then sold the truck the next week to some retard who actually believed that the truck had been "babied" by a "responsible adult", despite sounding like crap when he fired it up. That is the main reason I will not buy a used diesel anymore, especially a Ford.
Old    Tony (retoxtony)      Join Date: Apr 2012       08-09-2014, 1:26 PM Reply   
It usually does seem like there is a huge pro Ford bias on this forum and specifically for the ecoboost. Ford does make a decent truck but the reality is they all make a pretty nice truck that is more than capable enough for what most of us will ever throw at them. They all make a few lemons too. I had the misfortune of getting a lemon when I had my 2011 ecoboost. That POS spent a lot of time in the shop and Ford treated me like crap the entire time. I'll never own another ford in my life but it has less to do with the actual vehicles than the way Ford treated me when I was trying to get my issues resolved. I ended up taking a beating on that truck just to get rid of it. Picked up a 09 Duramax and couldn't be happier.
Old    J (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       08-09-2014, 2:20 PM Reply   
Ford is doing a lot of new innovating for one. So you Prius truck drivers should have understood that when you bought your cute lil Eco trucks.
Also. The 6.7 is a motor being built and designed entirely by ford. Something no one else is doing diesel wise.

Also, ford outsells the **** out of every other truck. I'll find the numbers and post them.
It was something to the tune of
17:1 powerstrokes to cummins sold.
12:1 powerstrokes to duramax.

So, technically, you should in theory hear about 17 powerstrokes with issues, to every 1 cummins.
By sheer volume there will naturally be more problems heard about by ford.

And btw, I'm not a "ford guy"
I have a silverado half ton, and do happen to have a 6.0 ford, because they are cheap and plentiful. But I am not a die hard either way.
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       08-09-2014, 4:45 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmorlan View Post
Ford is doing a lot of new innovating for one. So you Prius truck drivers should have understood that when you bought your cute lil Eco trucks.
Also. The 6.7 is a motor being built and designed entirely by ford. Something no one else is doing diesel wise.

Also, ford outsells the **** out of every other truck. I'll find the numbers and post them.
It was something to the tune of
17:1 powerstrokes to cummins sold.
12:1 powerstrokes to duramax.

So, technically, you should in theory hear about 17 powerstrokes with issues, to every 1 cummins.
By sheer volume there will naturally be more problems heard about by ford.

And btw, I'm not a "ford guy"
I have a silverado half ton, and do happen to have a 6.0 ford, because they are cheap and plentiful. But I am not a die hard either way.
Link to the data? Those are some big numbers considering Ford doesn't sell 17 times more trucks than Ram nor does it sell 12 times more than Chevy.
http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2014/08...july-2014.html

Last edited by timmyb; 08-09-2014 at 4:47 PM.
Old    J (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       08-09-2014, 4:46 PM Reply   
I'm still looking for it. It was posted on another forum is how I ran across it. It was a few months back. I'll find it though.
It was a chart showing a span of 2004-present I believe. The last 10yrs of data.
But here is a chart from 2013 sales, showing ford 2:1 in pickups in general over the completion of dodge and gm

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2014/01...mber-2013.html

Last edited by Jmorlan; 08-09-2014 at 4:50 PM.
Old    J (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       08-09-2014, 4:51 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by timmyb View Post
Link to the data? Those are some big numbers considering Ford doesn't sell 17 times more trucks than Ram nor does it sell 12 times more than Chevy.
http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2014/08...july-2014.html

It was strictly based on diesel pickups from the last 10yrs. It's floating around somewhere, and it was a few months back so my figures may not be "exactly" correct. But I'm 98% positive they are pretty darn ball park.
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       08-09-2014, 4:51 PM Reply   
Here's some 2012 data: http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2013/02...s-in-2012.html
17:1? Seems far-fetched when you look at those numbers, especially on the 3500 trucks.
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       08-09-2014, 4:53 PM Reply   
This one has 3/4 ton data in it: http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2014/04...s-in-2013.html
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       08-09-2014, 4:55 PM Reply   
Oh and look at that, GM sold more half ton trucks than Ford did! HAHAHAHA!
Old    Ryan K (FastR3DN3K)      Join Date: Jun 2013       08-09-2014, 6:08 PM Reply   
The only reason that Ford sells as many trucks as they do is because they sell more fleet trucks than anyone. They have the market cornered on that aspect and Chevy and Dodge will never be able to compete with them. Without it, Ford would be completely out of the truck game altogether. Go look at what your local water department, road department, electrical service company, oil field workers, large construction companies, etc. are driving. I guarantee majority of them will be Ford just because they build the fleet trucks as cheaply as possible and sell them just as cheap. My last company truck was bare bones F350 PSD with no power anything (not even a CD player), vinyl seats, no tow hitch, basic steel bumpers, etc. The only upgrade it had was manual 4wd w/ the FX4 suspension package, and when I picked it up it still had the sticker on it showing it's retail price of $46,000. But because my company buys so many of them they get them even cheaper than that. Chevy and Dodge aren't going to touch that market while Ford is selling them that cheap.

But on the flip side, go down to your local rodeo or hot shot trucking yard and tell me what truck you see the most. I'd be willing to bet majority of them are Dodge. I know last year at the Ft. Worth Stock Show Rodeo I walk out behind the arena to where all the cowboys parked their rigs, and I counted roughly 40 Dodge CTDs, 4 Chevy D-maxs, and 2 Ford PSDs. There were a couple of guys there in Tundras too, but they weren't towing nearly as large of a rig as most of the other cowboys.

Last edited by FastR3DN3K; 08-09-2014 at 6:11 PM.
Old    Mike (Salister)      Join Date: Nov 2013       08-09-2014, 11:46 PM Reply   
as some one looking at trucks right now and literally looking at everything that could tow my boat... this makes my head hurt. My 98 dodge 5.2 5 speed is decent but Ive been putting alot of money in it lately, mostly preventive maintenance, then of course the throwout bearing goes, so need a new clutch etc... I really wanted a tundra but then the Titans were appealing to me, then i fell for some fords i was liking, now I dunno, I love the look of the new dodges but cant aford one. Im afraid of another dodge cause Ive had some issuses, but the biggest is its rotting apart. My budget is around 15k and you cant get anything under 100k miles for less then 20k dollars... I found a sweet avalanche but I have no Idea. Might just sell the boat so I dont have to worry about towing it anymore. lol jk.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       08-09-2014, 11:56 PM Reply   
Wow. I really appreciate the relative civility this thread has progressed with and the information within. I didn't start this to bash Ford at all and I'm thankful it never morphed into a dong wagging contest. Hey!....... WW can be a nice place after all! Kumbaya!
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-10-2014, 4:16 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by FastR3DN3K View Post
The only reason that Ford sells as many trucks as they do is because they sell more fleet trucks than anyone. They have the market cornered on that aspect and Chevy and Dodge will never be able to compete with them. Without it, Ford would be completely out of the truck game altogether. Go look at what your local water department, road department, electrical service company, oil field workers, large construction companies, etc. are driving. I guarantee majority of them will be Ford just because they build the fleet trucks as cheaply as possible and sell them just as cheap. My last company truck was bare bones F350 PSD with no power anything (not even a CD player), vinyl seats, no tow hitch, basic steel bumpers, etc. The only upgrade it had was manual 4wd w/ the FX4 suspension package, and when I picked it up it still had the sticker on it showing it's retail price of $46,000. But because my company buys so many of them they get them even cheaper than that. Chevy and Dodge aren't going to touch that market while Ford is selling them that cheap.

But on the flip side, go down to your local rodeo or hot shot trucking yard and tell me what truck you see the most. I'd be willing to bet majority of them are Dodge. I know last year at the Ft. Worth Stock Show Rodeo I walk out behind the arena to where all the cowboys parked their rigs, and I counted roughly 40 Dodge CTDs, 4 Chevy D-maxs, and 2 Ford PSDs. There were a couple of guys there in Tundras too, but they weren't towing nearly as large of a rig as most of the other cowboys.
You pointed out why Ford is the best selling truck.Price and value. Price is what you pay for it initially. Value is what you get for what you pay compared to other like items. There are a lot of horse people here in VA . And most of them are driving Fords. I guess the difference is one truck owner is riding horses and the other is getting thrown off horses and landing on their head a little too often.JK
Old    Ryan K (FastR3DN3K)      Join Date: Jun 2013       08-10-2014, 10:25 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb4me View Post
You pointed out why Ford is the best selling truck.Price and value. Price is what you pay for it initially. Value is what you get for what you pay compared to other like items. There are a lot of horse people here in VA . And most of them are driving Fords. I guess the difference is one truck owner is riding horses and the other is getting thrown off horses and landing on their head a little too often.JK
And there goes civility out the window....lol j/k

Actually I think it has less to do with the "Price vs. Value" argument, and more to do with the "bottom line" factor. Any large business that has a fleet of trucks is always going to buy/lease whatever is the absolute cheapest truck in order to protect the bottom line and keep profits high. It's the same reason you don't see UPS delivering your packages in Mercedes vans, because it's not cost effective in the bigger picture.

Ford is willing to sell the most basic stripped out trucks for less than anyone else and they make up for the lower margins on each fleet truck with sheer volume. Would you prefer to sell 10 moderately equipped trucks with (just an example) a $4000 profit on each, or 100 stripped fleet trucks with a $1500 margin?
Old    J (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       08-10-2014, 10:26 AM Reply   
http://youtu.be/2eZLBKrHE_E
Old    Matt H (rockballer)      Join Date: Jun 2014       08-10-2014, 1:52 PM Reply   
Owned a 2012 ford edge. Complete piece of shat. The synce operating system was a complete joke. Froze every 3 days. The front end needed to be rebuilt and fixed only after 12000 ks on it. No accidents on the vehicle it was just a complete piece of crap. The engine ticked like a steam train. Complained since day one of purchase. Will never buy another ford again. Well new one anyways.
Old    J (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       08-10-2014, 3:04 PM Reply   
Only ford product I'll ever purchase is a super duty diesel.
Zero desire for any other ford product.

Maybe a raptor one day for ****s and gigs if I ever become one of the wakeworld elite.
Just a little somethin to leave at my lake house, with my Ferrari and G25
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       08-10-2014, 5:35 PM Reply   
^^^ it's the super duty diesels that I've heard such bad things about. Mainly the 6.0's.
Old    J (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       08-10-2014, 5:36 PM Reply   
I'm on my 3rd one. Never had a problem. But yes, they are temperamental.
The 6.0 is also the #1 selling diesel pickup to date.
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-10-2014, 6:21 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by FastR3DN3K View Post
And there goes civility out the window....lol j/k

Actually I think it has less to do with the "Price vs. Value" argument, and more to do with the "bottom line" factor. Any large business that has a fleet of trucks is always going to buy/lease whatever is the absolute cheapest truck in order to protect the bottom line and keep profits high. It's the same reason you don't see UPS delivering your packages in Mercedes vans, because it's not cost effective in the bigger picture.

Ford is willing to sell the most basic stripped out trucks for less than anyone else and they make up for the lower margins on each fleet truck with sheer volume. Would you prefer to sell 10 moderately equipped trucks with (just an example) a $4000 profit on each, or 100 stripped fleet trucks with a $1500 margin?
You missed my point. Value includes operating cost. So if Ford is as unreliable as you say they wouldn't be #1 in fleet sales. They are #1 because of the overall value[cost plus cost to operate] .Remember you said it's a bottom line business.
Old    J (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       08-10-2014, 6:23 PM Reply   
Id rather do 10x the volume at a lower margin, with a higher profit as a result.
With the option to have 10x the amount of recurring customers to do business with.
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       08-11-2014, 7:28 AM Reply   
If you want a 2500 gasser, it looks like Ram is your winner!
http://special-reports.pickuptrucks....winner-is.html
Old    Ryan K (FastR3DN3K)      Join Date: Jun 2013       08-11-2014, 8:00 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb4me View Post
You missed my point. Value includes operating cost. So if Ford is as unreliable as you say they wouldn't be #1 in fleet sales. They are #1 because of the overall value[cost plus cost to operate] .Remember you said it's a bottom line business.
While I'm not disagreeing that I said that, you have to remember that no business is going to know what the long-term operating costs outside of fuel and general maintenance (oil, filter, tires, etc) are going to be before they buy a fleet of trucks. They have no way of knowing that motors are going to be crap down the road.

I say this as a guy who works for the 2nd largest oil field services company in the world. Just in my district we have somewhere between 300-400 (not exaggerating) F-series trucks, Crown Vics, and E-series vans in our fleet (extrapolate that to our worldwide operations and we are well into the 5 digits). All of them range from gas burner light duties to a mix of the 6.0, 6.4, and 6.7 diesels. My company keeps going to them because they are getting them insanely cheaper compared to Chevy and Dodge. Then they end up spending a ton of money on the diesels, compared to the others, just to keep them on the road. We (the guys who drive them) complain about their reliability to management constantly. Our mechanics (who do majority of the work on them) complain about the man hours it takes to fix them. But management keeps buying them because they are getting them dirt cheap every year with the promise from Ford that "we fixed that issue on these new ones". This cycle has been going on for 10+ years now.

Once these vehicles get to the point where they are costing too much to fix constantly, we send them off to our reclamation dept. (i.e.- the guys who sell them at auction). They sell them to the general public to try and recoup some of the money we wasted on them. So for those of you who go and buy old fleet trucks from auction: good luck with that and I hope you never get one of our old trucks.
Old    Cory D (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       08-11-2014, 8:42 AM Reply   
I am loyal to Ford mainly because they are simple and reliable but also because I like the body and interior styles. Cars I stick with 60s. Trucks I've always had '80-'86, though the truck is essentially the same up through '97 which speaks a lot for the design that they sold well for 17 years with only minor changes and are still everywhere. These Fords are cheap and easy to maintain and just plain work, never leave you stranded. I've always had Fords except one POS GM and one POS Honda, neither worked well and were both money pits. Easier to stick with Ford because it's what I know and there are so many similarities across the years in how they did things.

For gas engines small blocks are cheap reliable and get parts anywhere off the shelf. 385 series are gobs power and torque for cheap. I'm on my first diesel now, a 6.9, and while the power and torque totally suck it is a good simple reliable and cheap to maintain engine. The only issue I've ever had with my Ford trucks so far as breaking things and unreliability is the damn German ZF5 transmission. I've cracked cases, ripped the mounts off the tail housings, broken shifters, bearing failures, and generally broken them in every way you can break a transmission. I blame it on the aluminum case flexing. For a while I was just accepting annual transmission replacements and figured eventually I'd ditch the German junk and get a NV4500. My other common failure was NP208 transfer cases. Kind of silly to run an NP208 behind a big block putting out over 500 ft/lbs so I can't fault Ford for that as the solution is either a BW1356 or a NP205.

Personally I don't want to deal with reliability issues or expensive and time consuming repairs so avoid anything with EFI or emissions equipment. Before even expense or reliability issues the thing that turned me off from EFI the first time I drove one was that when you release the throttle the engines will continue to rev up. I don't like the funky driving characteristics of EFI, which is of course mandated by the government. Quality aftermarket EFI systems will drive properly like a carb, though I prefer cheap/simple/reliable so never messed with them.
Old    Ryan K (FastR3DN3K)      Join Date: Jun 2013       08-11-2014, 9:11 AM Reply   
Here's a good article that proves my point about fleet sales.

http://www.tundraheadquarters.com/bl...et-sales-grow/

Although it's from 2012, it's still accurate. If you were to go back to the early to mid 2000s though, I imagine that the Ford number would be considerably higher than in 2012. This is due in part to the terrible motors that Ford has turned out in the last decade, and also to a lot of other manufacturers getting in on the fleet game. This especially hold true since Dodge began pushing hard into the market when they came out with the new body styles in 09, which is why you see an uptick in their sales numbers on that chart.
Old    J (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       08-11-2014, 11:25 AM Reply   
Also. The king ranch super duty poo poo's on the Denali duramax.
Old    Kevin Skonnord (kskonn)      Join Date: Mar 2011       08-12-2014, 7:28 AM Reply   
I have owned a dodge, a 3 chevy's and 5 fords. Honestly I enjoyed all of them. The dodge had some issues, it was when they had a number of known transmission problems. Once I fixed the initial issue the truck has run for close to 15 years.

The chevy's were great, except one of them had the dash peeling issue. My fords have been really good also, the 7.3 diesel I had ran up to 400k and then I sold it to a buddy who is still driving it now. My current ford is a 6.7 deisel, I am 7 months in with 36,000 miles. so far so good. Truck tows great. I bought that one because I did not want to buy the GM product the year before a model change and they came highly recommended from a couple of my diesel mechanic buddies who said that the new power train on the Fords was very solid.

In addition, I have a great ford dealer 3 miles from my house who have always been a pleasure to work with, that means a lot to me.
Old    James Jackson (jamespjackson95)      Join Date: Jul 2012       08-18-2014, 6:03 AM Reply   
My 2007 6.0 has almost rolled in 200k miles... I had arp head studs, oem head gaskets, remote oil cooler, new oem cyclinder heads..... Drives like a new truck now. I love it!
Old    Eric (DenverRider)      Join Date: Feb 2013       08-18-2014, 6:56 AM Reply   
For the price of all of those modifications, couldn't you have just sold the truck and bought a new one? Bullet proofing that 6.0 is expensive as hell. I bought my 05 cheap as hell but I've already got 4000 into it. My head gaskets were still good but I had to do the oil cooler and egr cooler and right after that the high pressure oil pump shredded which was the only part I didn't do myself. Even after all of that I still need to pull the valve covers to replace dummy plugs, replace the fuel pressure regulator with the updated blue spring, and finally, replace the transfer case shift motor which has quit working. It was my first diesel and I'll never buy another Ford again.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       08-18-2014, 9:42 PM Reply   
^^^This is exactly why I started this post. I know so many people who have and keep putting money into repairing their diesel Fords. Especially the 6.0 motors. Again, I sold my Ram with 210K miles and only changed the water pump at 120K. How many diesel motors have they tried out in the last ten years? They keep saying they got it all worked out now every year... I don't want to offend anyone's choice but I think Ford is messed up and has been for a long time. It's not fair to their loyal customers.
Old     (Froggy)      Join Date: Nov 2013       08-19-2014, 5:24 AM Reply   
Ford owns Cummings but dosn't use them in their truck?
Old    Tim C (lifetimewarranty)      Join Date: Oct 2008       08-19-2014, 8:27 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Froggy View Post
Ford owns Cummings but dosn't use them in their truck?
Ford does not own cummins.


...and I'd seriously question why anyone would or could be "loyal" to a company so willing to screw their customers time after time...

Last edited by lifetimewarranty; 08-19-2014 at 8:30 AM.
Old    Cory D (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       08-19-2014, 9:05 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by markj View Post
^^^This is exactly why I started this post. I know so many people who have and keep putting money into repairing their diesel Fords. Especially the 6.0 motors. Again, I sold my Ram with 210K miles and only changed the water pump at 120K. How many diesel motors have they tried out in the last ten years? They keep saying they got it all worked out now every year... I don't want to offend anyone's choice but I think Ford is messed up and has been for a long time. It's not fair to their loyal customers.
Sounds like about $3500 worth of work... I believe the issues with these new diesels are mostly head gasket and valve seat/head cracks. Improved heads and studs torqued higher should resolve those issues, if that was the concern. A Ford diesel 4x4 Supercab with suitable gearing and no other options is $46k. I would assume GM and Mopar are in that same ballpark.

$3500 < $46,000. Also add other considerations such as if he prefers to drive a real transmission instead of a slushbox, Ford apparently doesn't offer manual transmissions anymore. Maintaining a vehicle you already own will always be cheaper in the long run than buying a new one. To me saying buy a new truck because your truck popped a head gasket is like saying buy a new boat because you whacked a stump and bent your prop. If the work he did addressed the root cause of the failure (and it sounds like it did) then it's money well spent IMO.
Old    Eric (DenverRider)      Join Date: Feb 2013       08-19-2014, 9:36 AM Reply   
If you sell it before the head gasket is blown, you get to add the value of the truck onto that 3500 when you sell the truck. It's also more like 8000 to bullet proof a ford 6.0 with new heads and hardened valve seats. 3500 only gets you the oil and egr cooler and maybe the high pressure oil pump depending on which oil cooler you get and which shop you use. Assuming that you are doing it pre-emptively as a prevention instead of as a result of already blown head gaskets .... Now you have 20 to 25K out of your 2007 powerstroke that you sold on craigslist plus the 8000 you didn't spend bullet proofing. Up to 33K with the right buyer. You may not get brand new but you can get one hell of a cummins or duramax for that money. Even if it was only 28K.

I made a similar decision with my 1999 Jeep Wrangler Sport with 150,000 miles. I could either spend $5300 plus shipping on upgraded dana 44 axles or I could take that 5300 and add it to the 5500 that I got when I sold the Jeep. Add the 1000 that I didn't have to spend on an upgraded transfer case and now I've got 11,800. Add a few thousand and I got a 2004 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon which already had dana 44 axles with lockers and an upgraded transfer case but only had 29,000 miles.

There is a point where repairing makes more sense but it depends on the cost of the repair and the resale value of what you have. The decision will be made for you if you wait until your head gasket is already blown. It also depends on whether there are enough educated buyers out there that know what you have if you put the money into new heads with ARP studs and are willing to pay a premium for those upgrades. Will you be able to get the money back out of the truck if you go to sell it afterwards?
Old    J (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       08-19-2014, 10:03 AM Reply   
Imo, and the reason I continue to buy 6.0's is because no matter how you look at it, they are still the least expensive route for a "newer" diesel.
Look at a cummins, or a duramax in the 05-07 range with similar options and miles.
Even after you buy a 6.0 and bulletproof it, you still come out less expensive than buying a duramax. And you don't have to worry about tranny problems like you do with a duramax or cummins. The torqshift 5sp is a stout transmission.

My most recent 6.0 was purchased with all the bulletproofing already done, and I couldn't have even purchased the parts pretty much for what I paid for the truck
Old    Tracktor (tracktor)      Join Date: Sep 2005       08-19-2014, 10:17 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmorlan View Post
Imo, and the reason I continue to buy 6.0's is because no matter how you look at it, they are still the least expensive route for a "newer" diesel.
Look at a cummins, or a duramax in the 05-07 range with similar options and miles.
Even after you buy a 6.0 and bulletproof it, you still come out less expensive than buying a duramax. And you don't have to worry about tranny problems like you do with a duramax or cummins. The torqshift 5sp is a stout transmission.

My most recent 6.0 was purchased with all the bulletproofing already done, and I couldn't have even purchased the parts pretty much for what I paid for the truck
Same as for us. I have two 6.0 Fords and love them both. Prior to this I only owned GM for the most part. I went into these purchases eyes open and did my research. I also factored in the cost to bulletproof and still was $5-10k under what a comparable Duramax would be. Plus I prefer straight axles after dealing with ****ty GM IFS for the last 10 years or so. Add to that Ford was the only one making a diesel SUV (full size) narrowed down my choices somewhat.............. I learned something about internet complaints after owning two GM 6.5 turbo diesels and getting 500k out of them with no major issues and a lot of hard miles.............
Old    Eric (DenverRider)      Join Date: Feb 2013       08-19-2014, 10:25 AM Reply   
So someone lost their ass after bulletproofing your last 6.0 Jmorlan? You just proved my point. You got the benefit of the bullet proofing and the previous owner got hosed for doing it.
Old    J (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       08-19-2014, 10:29 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverRider View Post
So someone lost their ass after bulletproofing your last 6.0 Jmorlan? You just proved my point. You got the benefit of the bullet proofing and the previous owner got hosed for doing it.

Not my fault.
But I am most certain the owner did not get hosed. It was a trade in to Elk Grove ford, and I'm sure they paid him accordingly.
It happened to be sent off to a dealer auction, where I bought it as a shot in the dark, I wasn't even present at the auction. So myself. And I'm sure no one else knew it had a new ATS turbo, nor a BPD oil cooler, BPD FICM, or ARP studs.
I've also made money on the past 2 6.0's I've owned. And I never dumped a dime into them. Both were stock, not bulletproofed.

Last edited by Jmorlan; 08-19-2014 at 10:32 AM.
Old    Cory D (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       08-19-2014, 3:45 PM Reply   
$3500 was for new heads with hardened seats, studs, gaskets, and oil cooler using prices from a quick Google search. I rounded up to $3500 to account for minor BS costs. What else is required to address the major failure points, I'm sure an EGR delete/cooler/whatever can't cost $4k if we round my estimate up to $4k. I'm no fan of these new electronically controlled engines with all the emissions nonsense but I'm highly doubtful you're looking at $8k to address the common head gasket failure issues. I'm not familiar with them so I could be wrong, but that $3500 should cover all the big ticket items which are just the heads and studs.

Not sure on what $5300 gets you for a D44 these days but at that point I'd drop one tons under it. Is a $5300 D44 stronger than a stock D60 with all new parts for under $1500 with locker of your choice? Maybe throw a few hundred more for better outers and ujoints if you're breaking parts? Rear axle be it D60/Sterling/14 bolt should be doable for under a grand. Granted, some extra cost for various parts and the time to make it work but I'm sure it has been done plenty of times. I'd rather start with one tons than keep throwing money trying to make light duty axles work.

As for resale value of major improvements, why would you buy a $46k truck if you didn't intend to keep it a long time? I can't imagine many people make $46k impulse buys. After $46k it's do what it needs because presumably at that price you're in it for the long haul. Unless you're buying something to fix up and flip, a $3500 repair to ensure it doesn't become an issue again is just maintaining your vehicle and part of TCO. Over another 150k miles that's only $.02/mi for the repair. Fuel costs are around $.25/mi, so what's $.02 more per mile or even $.04/mi more if you only keep it another 75k miles?
Old    J (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       08-19-2014, 3:51 PM Reply   
$8k to bulletproof?
Send it my way. I'll do the BPD air cool oil cooler with remote filter, BPD egr cooler, or delete your choice, dummy plugs, stand pipes, blue spring, hpop update, 58v FICM, head studs, heads with hardened valve seats and a powermax turbo.

Then tell me how bad the 6.0 is.
It'll be a raped ape and you'll not have any problems, maybe injector replacement at ~200k, but what diesel doesn't need them at that mileage? And don't give me any bologna.
Old    James Jackson (jamespjackson95)      Join Date: Jul 2012       08-19-2014, 5:15 PM Reply   

Love my 6.0... I've outran every cummins I've been against on the road
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       08-19-2014, 11:40 PM Reply   
^^^Nice looking truck. I'm sure you have out run many cummins. Especially ones that dont have tuners. That little bit of extra performance comes at a pretty high cost though IMO.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       08-20-2014, 12:08 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmorlan View Post
$8k to bulletproof?
Send it my way. I'll do the BPD air cool oil cooler with remote filter, BPD egr cooler, or delete your choice, dummy plugs, stand pipes, blue spring, hpop update, 58v FICM, head studs, heads with hardened valve seats and a powermax turbo.

Then tell me how bad the 6.0 is.
It'll be a raped ape and you'll not have any problems, maybe injector replacement at ~200k, but what diesel doesn't need them at that mileage? And don't give me any bologna.
.
My injectors on my old Ram were tested/inspected at 204k miles. They said I had plenty of life left. I know three people who have had their Ford injectors replaced twice inside of a year. That doesn't count the droves of people who I talk to at gas stations who tell me their Ford horror stories that go on and on. Btw, Im not a Ford hater-even though it sounds like it.

Here's the thing; I still can't believe all of the talk here saying how you just gotta do this or that and the Ford will be all good. I've heard many friends/people say the same thing for years.

My question is WHY??? Why make excuses and rationalizations for why Ford's diesels are unreliable? It's self defeating. 3-8k to "bulletproof" a truck??? It's retarded! What about your down time when you need your truck and it's stuck in the shop?

Ford regularly pumps their torque/HP up enough every year to beat the competition only to get their butts handed to them when it comes to reliability. Ford has had four different unproven motors in ten years!!! That speaks volumes... I'm pretty sure the 7.3 from the late 90's was a decent motor but that thing was gutless like Dodges were then too.
Old    J (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       08-20-2014, 8:04 AM Reply   
It's very simple, I'll say it again.
Cost of truck + bulletproofing= less than other diesel trucks.
You can purchase the truck, and do the bulletproofing. And have one hell of a stout hp/tq rating, and still come out less than the purchase price of a cummins, or a duramax.


Also. For me it's a pick your poison kind of thing. My f350 is lifted on 22's and 37's.
Every truck I ever get, gets lifted. So if I were to buy a duramax. I'd be in the same boat as my buddies bitching about their ****ty transmissions that cost 7k to build to make able to last towing or on bigger tires.
Or dealing with ifs on big tires/wheels/lift.

The ford has a stout 5sp trans, and a solid axle.
So, where would I rather put my pesos? Into the motor, and come out somewhere around 500hp when finished and be bulletproofed and ride out into the sunset. AND STILL BE LOWER IN COST TO A CUMMINS OR DURAMAX

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