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Old    Nauti 210 (brett33)      Join Date: Apr 2011       09-10-2013, 12:49 PM Reply   
I know this is thread could get off track fast... Let me begin by saying, I am in the market for a new boat and it's no secret to any of my friends that I am a Nautique guy. I was having a conversation with a buddy about getting into a newer (2012+) 230 and he just could not get passed what kind of money I was looking at spending. He loves Epics and is planning on buying a 23v this winter. I admit I don't know much about Epics, so I am reaching out to WW for some clarification.

Here are some statements that were made in our exchange..

Him: I bet that 23v will produce a bigger surf wave than the 230 and it is a lighter boat and half the money.

Me: To 95% of the tow boat population the 230 and 23v are not even in the same league.

Him: That's bc everyone is up Nautiques a** because they are part of the big 3. The technology Epic has put into their hull surpasses any other boat builder. Nautique is still roto-molding and hand laying fiberglass.

Me: How many industry awards has Epic ever won? This year Nautique won..
1. Manufacture of the year (2nd year in a row)
2. Buzz brand of the year (won the last 2 out of 3 years)
3. Boat of the year
4. Innovation of the year
5. Nautique rider Mike Dowdy won trick of the year

I'm not trying to dog on either of the brands, I just would want some real world feedback from 230 and 23v owners.

pics, statistics, whatever..

sorry for the long post.
Old    Dan (hco)      Join Date: Jun 2006       09-10-2013, 1:06 PM Reply   
Once you have driven both you will make your own decision. This thread is worthless.
Old    Nauti 210 (brett33)      Join Date: Apr 2011       09-10-2013, 1:14 PM Reply   
Agreed. It was hard to even post this, knowing I would be ripped for it. I just want some input on the validity of these statements.

FWIW I'm not looking at buying an Epic.

Last edited by brett33; 09-10-2013 at 1:18 PM.
Old    Supreme Device (rullery)      Join Date: Jul 2012       09-10-2013, 1:17 PM Reply   
Here we go. Epic sucks! But why are you even considering a Nautique when Mastercraft Exists? But if it were me I would go with a VLX, but I'm a Malibu guy. All the way. Screw Epic. Also, MB makes a great boat, but Axis puts out the best wakeboard wake for the money hands down, NO COMPARISON. Also, Tige, Supra, and Supreme are things. Nothing compares to a G23 though. X Star. Moomba. Wakesetter. blah blah
Old    J (Jmorlan)      Join Date: May 2013       09-10-2013, 1:21 PM Reply   
Find most expensive boat, take 15yr note, lose back to bank in 3yrs.

Repeat.
Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       09-10-2013, 3:02 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmorlan View Post
Find most expensive boat, take 15yr note, lose back to bank in 3yrs.

Repeat.
This is almost like jumping the wake at 95' with stock ballast.
http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=799734
Old    RB (boardman74)      Join Date: Jul 2012       09-10-2013, 3:18 PM Reply   
Oh I remember that thread!!!! It was that one guy trying to be 2 different people!!! Arguing with himself.......
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-10-2013, 4:39 PM Reply   
Quote:
Him: I bet that 23v will produce a bigger surf wave than the 230 and it is a lighter boat and half the money. Lighter is relative. However, the EPIC is rock solid.

Me: To 95% of the tow boat population the 230 and 23v are not even in the same league. I bet 99% of the wakeboat population has not been in or ridden behind both.

Him: That's bc everyone is up Nautiques a** because they are part of the big 3. The technology Epic has put into their hull surpasses any other boat builder. Nautique is still roto-molding and hand laying fiberglass. Bagging technology is certainly more advanced. However, in a boat does it matter much? It would in an aerospace application

Me: How many industry awards has Epic ever won? This year Nautique won..
1. Manufacture of the year (2nd year in a row) This would only go to a larger manufacturer. Who is the jury and what are the criteria?
2. Buzz brand of the year (won the last 2 out of 3 years) Buzz buzz buzz, even from wannabes. Just like Mastercraft it has the "who was I from 30 years ago legend.
3. Boat of the year G23 perhaps. What was the selection criteria?
4. Innovation of the year NSS is certainly is unique.
5. Nautique rider Mike Dowdy won trick of the year Is the rider part of the boat?

I'm not trying to dog on either of the brands, I just would want some real world feedback from 230 and 23v owners.
Being I have ridden and driven both boats (part of the 1% that may have), they boat are nice boats and you would be happy with either. As you know there are lots of factors to consider including emotional ones. As suggested, try both and come up with your own plan. Better still, try a number of other boats and don't be shy with your testing. There are lots of good and less than ideal points to a number of boats, regardless of the price tag.

If you are comparing fit and finish I would suggest you look at boats that have been used. That will show you how good each one works after a few years off the show-room floor. The newer Nautiques have smoother lines in the storage areas, if that matters.

The surf wave on the port side is less steep on the 230 than the 23V. The Epic starboard wave is spectacular. No extra ballast is required for anything on the Epic.

The wake-board wake is about the same, depending on how big you want it.

I would take the transom audio over the cage speakers any day of the week.

The Epic cuts through waves better than most boats and has more freeboard. Can you suffer spray? Yes, but compared to a loaded (pick the brand), it does quite well. You have a better chance of taking a roller over the bow with the Nautique. Some have complained about the seating/floor being to high with the Epic. Yes, you sit about 2-3 inches higher than in some other boats. However, all the storage space can still be used, you don't fall over bags on the floor or loose space with bags on the seats or in the rear hatches.

The steering is somewhat easier on the Nautique due to shaft position on the rudder. They both share poor steering going in reverse and in beam winds in reverse and very slow forward speeds. I feel the Epic tracks better at surf and wake-board speed.

With the Nautique, the clique crowd will want to be seen with you! With the Epic, you either love the stub nose, it grows on you (anchor box), or you loath it. So far most people want to get in my Epic to compare how it rides. Most leave with a smile (sometimes hidden) on their face!

Now for the money comment, all 2 cents of it. Go try a number of boats, surf and wake-board them. Load all your gear in and on them. You might be surprised what you finally decide to buy.

Last edited by Iceberg; 09-10-2013 at 4:48 PM. Reason: either vs both
Old    Nauti 210 (brett33)      Join Date: Apr 2011       09-11-2013, 6:55 AM Reply   
1. This thread took off exactly how I thought it would.

2. Rullery- I laughed. Well done.

Iceberg- Thank you. I have been in a few 230s, but never had the chance to get in and explore an Epic. We set up a demo, and I am looking forward to it. It seems that people who have been in and around these boats have a lot of good things to say about them, and I am excited to see what what it will do.

Quote:
No extra ballast is required for anything on the Epic.
That is a big plus. I love that Epic has all of their weight under the floor, but what's the deal with people only riding these things 1/2 to 3/4 full? Does the wake plateau with a certain amount of weight? Does anyone plumb surf sacs along the port and starboard sides to list the boat further or do the Surf Tabs take care of that?

Quote:
I would take the transom audio over the cage speakers any day of the week
While I have mixed feelings about the performance of 8 component speakers vs HLCDs, I do agree that having the extra headroom would be nice.

Quote:
The steering is somewhat easier on the Nautique due to shaft position on the rudder.
This is interesting, I have heard from other Epic owners that the "Vector Steering" associated with the dual rudder made quite a difference in the steering, as well as in reverse.

Quote:
Go try a number of boats, surf and wake-board them. Load all your gear in and on them. You might be surprised what you finally decide to buy.
I've been in and around a number of boats over the years and can tell you i've been impressed by "underdogs" more times that not. The situation is, my buddy and Gary the owner of Epic Boats are personal friends, so he is inclined to stick with Epic since he feels he's getting a deal and the added reassurance of knowing he can make it right or work with him, if something were to happen. On the other hand, I am more inclined to stay with Nautique as I bought my boat from the same dealer for over 10 years ago and have been doing business with them since. We both feel like we are getting treated right and that's really all we care about. We'll just credit the bantering between us to our lake being dry, we cant ride and both of us are ready for our new rides.

Post some pics of your Epic and the wake/wave. Is it a 21 or 23v?
Old    Sean Vadnais (Epic21v)      Join Date: Jul 2013       09-11-2013, 7:58 AM Reply   
No pics but video of the wake and wave behind my epic 21v

wake: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us3aR1v9Mc0 (ballast 3/4 full 22mph @ 70ft)

wave: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDQE6jEHfRk ( usual ballast setup is starboard side full with an extra 750 lbs bag in rear storage, port 1/3, front full 11.5 mph)
Old    Rance Taylor (DatTexasBoy)      Join Date: Aug 2012       09-11-2013, 8:29 AM Reply   
That wake seems super narrow to me. I've ridden behind one. Pretty hard to keep clean too. Just my experience.
Old    D Hill (dhill)      Join Date: Aug 2010       09-11-2013, 11:31 AM Reply   
i strongly considered an new 2011 epic 23v before eventually buying my 2008 230. i only rode behind a newer 2010 23v one time, but had been in several 230's. i really liked the 23v....price, storage, build, smart tow, etc., but chose the 230 based on four key opinions....

1) nautiques are very popular in the indiana market, whereas there was only one epic within 150 miles (at the time). i thought resale would just be easier with the nautique.
2) though i'd heard several great things about epic customer service, there simply wasn't anyone in the area familiar with epic boats. i had owned a mastercraft x10 prior and appreciated the local dealer support.
3) epic was moving manufacturing to LA and i was worried about possible "new model quality" problems
4) the wake on the 230 at times can be finicky, but it was very tough to keep the wake clean on the 23v. may have been experience of the owner since it was his first summer with the epic, but one side was always washed out. again, likely solved with experience, but i went with the known over unknown.

all opinions, not bashing epic boats in any way.
Old    Frank Berg (Iceberg)      Join Date: Dec 2011       09-11-2013, 12:17 PM Reply   
Quote:
No pics but video of the wake and wave behind my epic 21v

wake: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us3aR1v9Mc0 (ballast 3/4 full 22mph @ 70ft)

wave: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDQE6jEHfRk ( usual ballast setup is starboard side full with an extra 750 lbs bag in rear storage, port 1/3, front full 11.5 mph)
Nice videos!

-----------
These are a 23V. Pretty similar results.

Starboard surf wave. No extra ballast and 3 in the boat. Not the greatest picture but it shows the wave nicely.





Port side.

I don't have any surf pic port since we don't use it much. However, here is a curl shot. It is fairly steep but not dialed in at the time of the photo.

If you add people or ballast, the wave gets longer and more mellow. Most of the time we only have 2 or 3 adults and one or 2 kids on board.



Wakeboard at 22 mph about 1900 lbs ballast (50% 50% and 40%) in windy conditions..



Here is the old man (me at 55) going W-W with no ballast at 65' at 21.3. The telephoto makes the wake seem very narrow. I wish it was! As you can see, we needed a body or 2 on the port side.


Last edited by Iceberg; 09-11-2013 at 12:26 PM.
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       09-12-2013, 7:51 AM Reply   
And to somewhat answer/destroy a myth about the speakers being washed over - they don't ... At least not from the boat's wake. The video below shows it during surfing - it's the same/less with boarding
https://vimeo.com/74330186
However they do get washed over if a mo.ron drives by you too close creating a wake while you sit idle - the last time it was the sheriff himself ...
Old    Delta Force (wakebordr11)      Join Date: May 2001       09-12-2013, 10:20 AM Reply   
Did the camera not get wet in that video, or am I missing something? Maybe not "washed over", but splashed...?
Old    Kronos (kronoss)      Join Date: Oct 2010       09-12-2013, 11:55 AM Reply   
I would get a Tige instead. Best of both worlds.

I been on a Epic, and i can say that the wake is superb, but wakesurf is not as good as other boats.
Old    Nicolas Kohler (monkey_butt)      Join Date: Sep 2011       09-12-2013, 4:44 PM Reply   
Yep boat is almost sinking ... Darn I really worry about those speakers
Old    Nic (_vitty_)      Join Date: Jul 2009       09-12-2013, 8:08 PM Reply   
speakers getting wet are not a problem. I've had my wet sounds back there getting wet for 4 seasons and they are still rockin. They seem to handle the water with ease. The transom audio is such a killer design. Clutter free tower and nobody's ears in the boat get blasted by the tower speakers. The sound really travels well over the top of the water too. Always gets comments at the cove as well
Old    Nauti 210 (brett33)      Join Date: Apr 2011       09-12-2013, 8:33 PM Reply   
Some good looking waves for sure. Nick, I know you did a gate install on yours, mind sharing some pics or info on the boat in general?

Wakeboard wake looks great, interesting to hear they are tough to keep clean. I know the 230 can be tricky as well. Just gotta ride/drive the 23v now.

Guaranteed some 5 star wally can swamp that rear end. Has anyone heard of people having to replace transom speakers from this? I have not.

Where are the 230 pics?

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