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Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       04-15-2012, 4:08 AM Reply   
So last time we went out it got really windy and we had some problems with our regular side surf corner sac. We pretty much got things working by the time Frank surfed and the wind had died down. I didn't feel like we got a good test, though. It seemed like the regular side was more finicky or different than the goofy side and that has not been the case with any of our other Tiges. They always are the same on both sides. We are heading up to Wakemakers in Oregon next week to install a special system into the boat, but before we did I wanted to make sure that simply adding plug and play sacs in this boat was all that would be needed to create a great competition level wakesurf wake on both sides. We have worked hard every year to provide a great wake and conditions at the West Coast Wakesurf Open.

The weather was great today, it was only a high of 65 but when the Sun was on you, and the wind was down it felt like the high 70s. The water temp was high 50s and up to 60 in a few places. As soon as we got the Z3 out of the slip we situated the sacs carefully this time. We also bought out a second Jumbo V-Drive sac so that we didn't have to move the one we had from one side to the other, which is what caused the problem last time. Once we got that all done we filled up the 2 440s under the side seats all the way, and then the surf corner jumbo. We also filled up the hard tanks under the surf corner floor (250) on both sides and filled up the front completely (1000 total). The jumbos and the side sacs don't fill all the way up but we figured this is as close as we are going to get to simulating the plug and play sacs. No other weight, lead, mods, etc. Also, we carefully made sure that the corner sacs were both setup the same way, and so when we rode each side we made sure each side was weighted as identically as possible including how we adjusted people all day.

Well, the weather held up except for an occasionally gust here and there. The regular wake was just as impressive as the goofy side. We ran the same speeds, the same TAPS (wake plate), and with the same weight the same list angle of about 8ish degrees side to side.

Before I get to the pictures and videos, a few observations.

  • This boat has tons of power/push. Dennis rides both sides and weighs about 280 or so and moves back and forth in the wake with ease. Dennis is excellent at "walking the board" and adjusting his weight to get farther back than most guys his size, but he is handicapped when riding backside. He can still adjust, but not with the same skill/ease. So when you see him easily ride back far while backside you know the boat is giving him lots of power back there.
  • The Z3 is a$$ heavy and creates a big hole, which has to be where the power is coming from. You really need to ride it, or chase it to see, doesn't come out well in pictures. This also means you have to put a lot of weight up front to compensate for what you put in the back. If you don't put enough weight up front, the boat just digs its butt down and drags and you hear the motor work harder and the wake doesn't work. If you have just a bit too little weight up front, you get more wash. Add some more weight up front and bam, its gorgeous and still tons of power.
  • The Z3 handles the weight very well since it uses less of a list and requires lots up front, it is spread all over, which makes for a comfortable ride and since the boat is so deep, nothing feels remotely extreme. We are not going for a "slammed" wake here, but a great comp wakesurf wake. We still have 4 to 6 inches of room before the water comes to the rub rail.
  • The rollers this thing puts out our meaty. Dennis was comparing the shape of the curl to Chopu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teahupo'o) and if you watch from the chase boat I swear you could surf the second set behind the main wake. At least RJ or Thomas probably could.

Here is the first pic of Rob Harrington, and I slid the camera off the side so you could see how much room we have to the rub rail.



Another great shot of Rob on the regular side.



Dennis riding backside, and still heading way back. Yes, he rides this out, this is not a pic of him falling out. 6'2" and 280lbs.





Jesse got her turn, and first goofy shot of the day.



Thomas was just barely getting air last year, and starting to get back to it.





Maddie doesn't like the cold but braves it to surf.





RJ can ride very far back and recover easily, partly because he has a fast board, and partly because he can pump pretty well.



RJ is starting to edge out more on those bottom turns. This is the 4'8" Fang Tail from Soulcraft and is the best board I have seen him on to date. Fast, fun and forgiving. (We do have a new Shred Stixx chaos custom coming in soon, that should also be fun.)



This is an easy recovery for him, but I have seen Chris Wolter come back from farther.



He really likes the shape and the lip, and he seems to boost off of it really well.



RJ has a hard time full on grabbing the board, but usually gives it a good slap, rub, or tickle.



I think this was my favorite air shot of the day.



This is a good shot of Dennis riding goofy and you can see when he gets down into the trough the wake is about to his waist.



Yes, no tricks, he surfed this back in.





Great day but I know some of the pictures you don't quite get a good perspective, and especially the ones with Dennis riding way in the back may seem like shots of him falling out, so I threw together some quick raw footage. No slow mo or music, just raw GoPro2 at 720P60 mounted on the gunwale halfway from from the rear seat to the back corner.



We are off to Oregon in a week to visit wakemakers.com and I now feel confident we are ready. We are having way too much fun so early in the season.

Last edited by ragboy; 04-15-2012 at 4:13 AM.
Old    Harold Hemming (h20king)      Join Date: Dec 2009       04-15-2012, 6:05 AM Reply   
Robert are you coming all the way up here to Portland to get ballast installed?? If so what days are you going to be here??
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       04-15-2012, 8:13 AM Reply   
Coming to Bend Oregon, wakemakers has moved, I believe, this past weekend. The plan is that we are driving down to be there after lunch on Friday, and doing install that should be finished late friday. Then to hit the lake on Saturday to test. As long as you understand that this is the "plan" and there could be a hiccup, we are totally up for meeting a couple people on the lake to help us test and get a good ride. I don't even know what lake we are going to at this point, I will have to ask Jason.

From our tests, especially yesterday, the plug and play sacs are going to be all this boat needs.
Old    Frank Wolter (wofrankwo)      Join Date: Jul 2009       04-15-2012, 8:37 AM Reply   
What a great day you all had!! Sweet pics of RJ going Big!! Missed everybody ..... smog and taxes kicked our a$$'$!!
Old    Harold Hemming (h20king)      Join Date: Dec 2009       04-15-2012, 8:59 AM Reply   
Robert if wakemakers moved to bend more than likely it will be lake Billy Chinook.Make sure to bring your dry suits the water here is still freezing cold
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       04-15-2012, 2:39 PM Reply   
ok, what is the water temp there?
Old    Harold Hemming (h20king)      Join Date: Dec 2009       04-15-2012, 2:53 PM Reply   
Water temp is in the high forty's low fifties.It has been a colder than average spring here in Oregon so I wanted to give you a heads up.I would love to come check out your new ride but think ill just wait till next month and see it in sunny California.Thanks for all the work you put in to set up the west coast open we are looking foreword to the event.
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       04-15-2012, 3:13 PM Reply   
Thanks for the heads up, Dennis will probably be with us. Let us know if you change your mind, you don't have to get in, you can just sit in and make fun of Dennis and RJ with me. ;-)
Old    John James (johnboyy7)      Join Date: Apr 2011       04-16-2012, 2:32 PM Reply   
robert.... what percentage is the weight from front to back?
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       04-16-2012, 5:18 PM Reply   
Somewhere between 60/40 and 70/30 back/front. That is normally what I have seen for wake boarding, but at least on the tiges and sangers and a few other boats we have waited, they required much higher % in the back corner. Not counting people we were at:

Surf corner - 1400 - 46%
Opposite Corner - 600 - 20%
Front - 1000 - 33%
Total of 3k

Oh, and I totally forgot to mention....

I finally had to fill up the tank, it took 40 gallons on the nose. I took the boat home and filled it up with 1 hour on the dash, and filled it up at 10 hours. That's 4.45 GPH! Its not even broken in yet, I am guessing it will be right around 4 GPH.

I know many hear that and say "if you have to worry about gas than you shouldn't be buying this type of boat", yet at the same time I have heard the argument that the Z3 costs about $10k more than say an Enzo 244. I am not sure if that is about right or not, but figure the savings on gas if you do 150 hours a year, we do about 200 a year. Several friends/owners of enzos, but also malibus and such, say their boats use about 8 GPH. So in one year you save $2400 on gas more with a boat that uses 8GPH. That is also a savings of $200 a month. Thats a chunk of change.

150 hours @ $4/gallon at 4 GPH = $2400
150 hours @ $4/gallon at 8 GPH = $4800

Now, my boat is in a slip at the marina, and I pay about $1/gallon premium which is pretty reasonable. That means I am saving $3k/year at $5/gallon. That's a chunk of change. I guess if you don't use your boat much, you don't save as much. This is definitely one of those "sell the wife" points if you know what I mean.

Anyway, if you love your wake better than all else and your boat uses 8 GPH or so, it shouldn't matter, you want that wake, so you pay it. I just think its a cool benefit that can go a long way, especially when gas is like this. I just am very surprised I am able to get that with such a big/deep/heavy 24 foot boat and 409 HP. My Waverunner VXs do about 4GPH and with only 16 gallon tanks I get about 4 hours and have to refuel. I almost never have to refuel when wakesurfing all day. I can go at least 10 hours unless I shuttle around the lake at high speed. Anyway, just food for thought, because it boggles me how my low end yamaha vx (2007) wave runners get the same fuel economy as my weighted Tiges wakesurfing all day.
Old    Mitch (wakemitch)      Join Date: Jun 2005       04-16-2012, 5:39 PM Reply   
That wake looks great, but the GPHs look AWESOME!!
Old    Andrew Taft (taft)      Join Date: Jul 2006       04-16-2012, 11:50 PM Reply   
Robert,

I see you were putting weight in the back opposite corner. What do you find this does for the wave? I have tried putting some in there in my Sanger, but I wasn't sure if it was helping or making things worse.
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       04-17-2012, 12:51 AM Reply   
It depends on the boat really. The sangers I have been around, mainly the 215 and 237 seemed to be very similar to the RZ2 as far as how to weight. Everything in the surf corner, not much or at all in the opposite corner. On the RZ2 is I started to put weight in the opposite corner I would either get more wash or it would start to destroy the lip and wasn't as good as far as shape goes.

This Z3 is just totally different than that. It likes that 8 degree or so list, so you have to weight both sides to keep that, too far one way or the other and the shape messes up, there is a balance where the curl is up and back and the lip is well defined. I am pretty sure Dennis doesn't put any wake in the opposite corner on his sanger and he has a mean wave. I am sure he can post some pics.
Old    Andrew Taft (taft)      Join Date: Jul 2006       04-17-2012, 3:22 AM Reply   
Yea as I said, I didn't think it helped. I don't run with weight back there, but I'm always interested to hear why others are doing certain things. Weighting boats seems like a never-ending experiment. But so long as you've got some warm sunshine, and time, it's a fun game.
Old    Dennis Costa (dejoeco)      Join Date: Apr 2003       04-17-2012, 7:52 AM Reply   
I have constantly tweek my weight. My wake is pretty good for a direct drive. My boat is an '02 Tige 22IR. What I have found is addiing weight, say on the opposite rear corner, might not increase the size or length, but will increase push and push is really the most important factor for me. Tige does like the stern heavy and I put a fair amount of wieght on both sides.
Old    JS (dreamer)      Join Date: Nov 2008       04-17-2012, 8:13 AM Reply   
That GPH is pretty impressive. I will have to keep track of my boat for a tank and see what it uses. I bet it is more than your Tige.

By the way, along with the 3k of water ballast how much people weight is in your boat for those pics?
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       04-17-2012, 12:04 PM Reply   
About 1200 lbs of people or so. Needed all the kids up front to help with the front weight.
Old    JS (dreamer)      Join Date: Nov 2008       04-17-2012, 1:25 PM Reply   
Wow, 4200#'s total weight in your boat. What is it rated for? I think the most I put in my Enzo was my 2200#'s of ballast and about 700#'s of people and the wake was a monster (to us rookies anyway).

What rpm is your engine revving at when surfing? It must have a nice torque curve to push all that weight along and not use much fuel.
Old    Anthonyv911 (tonyv420)      Join Date: Jul 2007       04-17-2012, 1:56 PM Reply   
Great pics, especially the one where RJ "tickles" the board LOL!
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       04-18-2012, 4:30 AM Reply   
Sorry, wasn't avoiding your question. We have received a lot of requests to test the Z3 with just the stock system, not the competition wake. We have been quite crazed to make sure we had a competition ready wake in time for the West Coast Wakesurf Open that we kinda past that over. Well now that our comp wake testing is done, we did a test with just me and the kids and we left the extra sacs on the pontoon boat. No extra lead, water, nothing but us and the Pro Stock system. Not even a cooler or ice.

Before I get to the pics and video, the answer to your question has a lot to do with the way this boat is weighted. When we do a comp wake, we may use lead but we try to build the wake with just water, and I personally want to see a boat build a comp wake with nothing but water, all hidden away, and all plumbed or easily plumbable. The RZ2 for instances was like that, everything was built around the L-Shaped custom sacs put in the corner. So each custom sac probably held about 1200 lbs or so (maybe less in reality) and then a 250lb hard tank under the corners and 2 400 lb tanks up front on either side. (the Pro System) The thing is, with the RZ2 you filled one corner with 1200 and the 250, nothing on the other side and then only a single front tank on surf side. So you end up with a comp/weekend warrior weighting of about 1850 lbs plus people. The rub rail is on the water at this weight, but it felt reasonable safe and it put out a great wake. Of course sometimes we weighted it more or had more people or whatever, but that was basically our daily weight. You couldn't add weight to the other side or more to the front for the best wake.

The same went for the RZ2 Pro Stock weighting. You filled up the rear corner and then that was it, very little if any up front to have decent push with the smaller weight, but it still was a great stock wake.

So ballast weight of RZ2 comp weight: 1850
ballast weight of RZ2 pro stock weight: 650

Now the Z3 you start with the SAME L-Shaped custom sac. Even though we don't have ours yet, that is why we used a Jumbo and a 440 on the corner and side to simulate the L-Shaped sac. About 1100 in the surf corner plus the 250 hard tank. But the Z3 wants weight all over so you have to add weight to match the corner weight, so you end up with 1000 lbs up front and then 600 or so on the opposite side plus people. That is how you end up close to 3k on the Z3 for comp weight plus people, yet the rub rail is still 4 inches off of the water and you are only listed 8 degrees. It doesn't feel that heavily loaded at all and the motor is working about 3k RPM like it does on all our other Tiges.

Same goes for the stock system on the Z3. Because of the way the boat likes to be weighted for the optimum wake, you end up using 650 in the surf corner, ~325 in the opposite corner, 500 front surf corner, and then ~250 opposite surf corner. So the Pro Stock system on the Z3 for best wake you are using 1725 lbs!

So ballast weight of Z3 comp weight: ~2900
ballast weight of Z3 pro stock weight: ~1725

I say all of that first, because when you see the pictures and video of the stock weighting, it doesn't look like what you would get from a stock wakesurf boat with 650 total in the corner. In the RZ2 you are using 33% of the total ballast to make the wakesurf wake, and then in the Z3 you are using 75% of the total ballast. And from the beginning, Rick and Danny from Tige told me this is what they were going for.

So here is the setup. It was quick because after playing and learning the boat with more weight, I was able to quickly figure what it should be stock, and we nailed it quick. This thing/likes needs that weight up front. I filled up surf side 100% front and back, then I did front 50% on opposite. Then I setup my clinometer and with people situated filled opposite rear corner until I got about 8 degrees. That was rear about 50% also.



Jesse was first.



Thomas was cold, but having fun. The wake was about as long, especially cuz the curl was smaller.





Trying to get air.



Maddie can't pump, and can't recover well, but she seemed to do just as well with the stock wake.



RJ was very shocked, he did ride it stock in Texas, along with Dennis, and they both said it had tremendous push. But conditions were bad, now they were cold, but great conditions. He said it had great length, and tons of push, about as much as before, he said he couldn't really tell the difference. The wake was not as tall, and he said the lip is better on the comp wake, but other than that, if this is all he had to surf on he would be more than content.



He liked the lip good enough.





So he rode backside, and he can't pump almost at all, Dennis rides much better backside than he does, but he got way back and rode back in several times.







So now for some raw video. I filmed in 1080P this time for the highest resolution, so feel free to hit full screen on this one. I also thought about it ahead of time and took the time to try to take identical on the water shots from both sides and compare at the end of the video. People argue with me all the time that EVERY boat will make a better wake on one side due to prop rotation. Watch the video all the way through, and tell me again. ;-) The wakes are not only the same on both sides but each side reacts the same to speed and taps. Both sides are setup in the video EXACTLY the same, except for maybe a bit off when compensating for driver, but Maddie is driving. TAPS is at 5 in all of this. My only complaint is that when comp weighted, you can go taps from 3-6, taps at 1 and 2 are dirty. At stock its dirty all the way to 3 or so, and 5 really cleans it up. Anyway, here is the video.

Old    JS (dreamer)      Join Date: Nov 2008       04-18-2012, 7:26 AM Reply   
Very impressive! I want one.
Old    N L (drnate)      Join Date: Jul 2006       04-18-2012, 9:01 AM Reply   
Ragboy--

I just wanted to thank you for the write-up, pics, vids, and all of the time put into all of this. I know it has been an effort, and I appreciate it and everything else that you do for the sport.

If anyone was in the market for a great surf boat, Tige would be hard to pass up. Looks good to me, and on both sides. Very impressive!
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       04-18-2012, 9:20 AM Reply   
What speed were you at?
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       04-18-2012, 10:16 AM Reply   
11.4 Taps 5.
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       04-18-2012, 11:56 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by drnate View Post
Ragboy--

I just wanted to thank you for the write-up, pics, vids, and all of the time put into all of this. I know it has been an effort, and I appreciate it and everything else that you do for the sport.

If anyone was in the market for a great surf boat, Tige would be hard to pass up. Looks good to me, and on both sides. Very impressive!
There is effort, but this is just fun. I love playing with a new boat, its a ton of fun and as you can see I do it with my family. Throw in this Z3, which is a kick in the pants. You can see in that video how excited RJ is. He met us at the lake on the way home from School, Maddie bought his wrong trunks, they were falling down, and the sun got buried in the clouds and water was in the high 50s. Yet he was giddy, I was the same way.

I have always taken all the pictures and video anyway, I am a huge geek and posting and sharing just gives me a way to put it together, watch it and enjoy. When I show RJ that a youtube video we did is getting a lot of views, he always asks me "how many of those are you?". Because he knows when I put out a video I will watch it a few times on my iPad and on my computer just for my own enjoyment.

And the geek part, if you realized how easy it is for us to throw up those videos. We spent this winter upgrading and customizing our video/media workflow. Its pretty sick, I am going to have to do a podcast on just that after the West Coast Open.
Old    Rebecca Ort (Becci_)      Join Date: Jun 2010       04-18-2012, 2:41 PM Reply   
I like the pics the wake looks fun. You have a lot of weight in the boat, must have a pretty strong engine. We usually just run the enzo sack (about 1400lbs) a fat buddy sac 150lbs and two people, another 300, ok plus the switchblade and I really really like the wave (Centurion enzo 240). Adding more weight makes it slightly meatier but not worth the gas money. Anyway nice pics.
Old    Mitch (wakemitch)      Join Date: Jun 2005       04-18-2012, 4:12 PM Reply   
Rebecca, the Z3 gets 4 GPH even when weighted like that. That is half the gas most inboards use, even centurions.
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       04-18-2012, 4:14 PM Reply   
Our boat uses the same engines as the enzo, this boat has the PCM 409, and all of the others, even with that weight had the PCM 343 and the MP340. Even weighted down like that, we still get 4 Gallons per Hour.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       04-18-2012, 11:30 PM Reply   
Which board is Dennis riding?
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       04-18-2012, 11:36 PM Reply   
He calls it his "Goofy" board, there is a huge picture of Goofy on the back. Its a Walker Project, I think its Pre-Bazooka. If you were to buy a big guy board now, he would recommend the bazooka usually, which is what Frank rides.
Old    Anthonyv911 (tonyv420)      Join Date: Jul 2007       04-19-2012, 12:42 PM Reply   
Looks pretty closse to identical waves on both sides!
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       04-19-2012, 2:01 PM Reply   
Since my hand is moving, it doesn't always perfectly line up, but I don't think it gets more similar than that! Here is a great screen grab where it lines up well.

If it wasn't for RJ, it looks like I did a horizontal flip of some video, which of course I didn't.



Click on the image to see it full size.
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       04-19-2012, 9:09 PM Reply   
Those last 2 pics really show that it's identical on both sides! Nice!
Old     (newwhit)      Join Date: Mar 2007       04-20-2012, 6:26 PM Reply   
i just want to echo what everyone has said, your dedication is unrivaled. It is so fun to see what you are doing, and I am quite envious. That boat is bangin'.

I think I will be buying one of these boats in 3 years (unfortunately not sooner!).

wakeboarding "magazines" and boat manufacturers should do this type of testing. Especially for surfing, but also for wakeboarding...
Old    John James (johnboyy7)      Join Date: Apr 2011       04-25-2012, 7:12 AM Reply   
how tall is the z3 with tower up and tower down?
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       04-25-2012, 3:24 PM Reply   
Not sure, I will try to find out.

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