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Old    Chris Bucklin (chrisbucklin)      Join Date: Mar 2012       03-26-2012, 2:41 PM Reply   
what u think? buy a 2012 nautique 230,or a supra 242? my local dealer got me into the nautique and now is no longer a dealer,but they picked up supra. they r tryin to get me into a supra...not sure what i want to do,i have a 210 nautique which im sellin to buy a biggger boat. thats eather a 230 or 242??? lookin for opinions????thank u
Old    Travis (gotwake133)      Join Date: May 2010       03-26-2012, 6:02 PM Reply   
The 242 wake is good.... but IMHO does not compare to the 230. Same goes for the fit and finish of the boat. If you plan on keeping the boat for an extended period of time, the Nautique should be a no brainer. Get in both and see which one fits you best, (assuming thats an option).
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       03-26-2012, 8:00 PM Reply   
Might want to wait till the end of the month and see Nautiques new boat.
Old    RPenner (pennery)      Join Date: Jul 2006       03-26-2012, 8:04 PM Reply   
230 for sure..
Old    Diggs (pdxWAKE) (tyler97217)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-26-2012, 8:22 PM Reply   
Save some money and get the supra. Much more bang for the buck. Also the fit and finish on the 242 is way better than the nautique. The new supra interior is way above previous models. Just my opinion. Nautique is an awesome boat but not really known for the interiors and I bet you save a bunch of money between the two. I don't know much about either wake but have heard they are both great.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       03-27-2012, 6:50 AM Reply   
Please lord demo both boats. Not just with factory ballast, but with an extra 2k at least in both boats and see which you like better. I don't know anything about he supra, so I can't compare the two. Biggest mistake people make when demoing a boat is they don't take weight with them. Unless you plan on riding factory ballast your whole life, bring bags with you so you know how the boats will perform weighted.
Old    Diggs (pdxWAKE) (tyler97217)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-27-2012, 6:56 AM Reply   
Yeah to stress what Chatt said. Demo the boats and see what fits you. Everyone has different tastes. Also, dealer is a huge part in making a purchase decision. Make sure you have trust in the dealer you choose and like to work with them.
Old    - (Txjole)      Join Date: Dec 2011       03-27-2012, 7:03 AM Reply   
This one really shouldn't be a debate at all.
Old    Drew Richardson (surffresh)      Join Date: Jun 2010       03-27-2012, 7:08 AM Reply   
+1 on Chatt above, the same goes for surfing, every manufactor / dealer / sales person says their boat is the best for surfing and they are somewhat right that they all can surf, but ones with deeper Vs in the transom have a clear advantage
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       03-27-2012, 9:28 AM Reply   
+2 on Chatt above
Next week 3/31/12 Nautique is launching a totally new wake boat . I cant say anything yet but it will definitely be worth the wait.
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-27-2012, 3:34 PM Reply   
+3 on chatts comment.

Do not listen to the guys who seem annoyed that you are even considering buying a supra over a nautique... most of them are confused and think that they own some stock in Correct Craft, they do not.** They are just owners, or future owners, that decided to go to the theater for the first time and ended up seeing "Nautique Mystique". Not to spoil it for you, but a quick summary of the story line is.... There is no other boat than a Nautique, and if you think otherwise, you are dumb.

I imagine you can get a loaded supra 242 for less than a moderately equipped 230, and its a bigger boat. The supra's wake is really nice, and if you like the carpeted interior, then you will like the supra. definitely get the carpet saver so that you can pull it out, clean it and let it dry. That boat cabin noise is considerably quieter than boats with the fiberglass tub with snap in carpet. the 230 is really nice and the wake has become well known for being awesome. All the nautique pros (not including wakeskating) seem to be in the 230, so that is saying something.

You have a great dilemma on your hands... post pics of whatever you get.

**some of the posters may be dealers or reps and although they do not own actual stock in correct craft, obviously they would like to see nautique succeed so that they can keep their job.

Last edited by johnny_defacto; 03-27-2012 at 3:39 PM. Reason: spelling
Old    TN22            03-27-2012, 4:23 PM Reply   
Definitely demo both, that's the only way to know which one you like more. Supra's will be priced lower, but Nautique makes a great boat as well. I agree with Diggs, you will get a more loaded boat in the Supra for less money than a Nautique equipped the same way. Just depends what you're looking for. I have heard the new Nautique that's coming out is going to be pretty expensive though, and by that I mean new X-Star range.
Old    Chris Bucklin (chrisbucklin)      Join Date: Mar 2012       03-28-2012, 2:21 AM Reply   
well i dont think there is much of a price differance. i need to go to the dealer and get a stone price but over the phone he said the bas eprice starts at 80...well i can get a great 230 for 85 on ebay,2012 and i love it..so maybe a no brainer, if i dont save atleast 10gs im never leavin nautique! my heart goes for the 230..but needed opinions. thanks much
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       03-28-2012, 5:10 AM Reply   
I read the posts here every day and I have had some pretty heated words with some of the members through it all the only thing people have against Nautique is price. I rarely read about gel cracks , tower problems, engine issues, warranty complaints etc.etc with Nautique . That is one of the reasons I bought one. If the best thing you can say about a boat is its just as good for less money you are only fooling yourself. Better cost more I have made costly mistakes in the past by buying price before quality you will never regret stepping up.

This post in no way is a slam of Supra they are a fine boat like Toyota is a fine car but just not a Lexus.Its your decision you only have to please yourself.
PS I own a Supra also.
Old    Jay (ironj32)      Join Date: Jan 2007       03-28-2012, 5:54 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisbucklin View Post
my heart goes for the 230..but needed opinions. thanks much
Sounds like you are familiar with the 230 and love it....my opinion would be to stick with it. Also, it appears that your getting a decent price on it, so the depreciation should not be significantly higher than what the Supra would be (however, I don't know what kind of price you can get on the Supra).
Old    Diggs (pdxWAKE) (tyler97217)      Join Date: Aug 2004       03-28-2012, 7:19 AM Reply   
I am definitely not saying the only benefit to go with a Supra is price. What I am saying is there should be a delta here on price. When there is a delta on price you start to weigh the positives and negatives of each and compared to that price point. If both prices were the same price point (which I highly doubt) then you can compare the boats head to head and of course go with which boat and dealer you like better. When you bring in the price difference of the two boats then you compare your likes and dislikes of each boat, dealer and compare it to the price you are going to pay. I have absolutely nothing against Nautique at all. They make a great proven and solid boat. I just really doubt that the price point for a 230 and a 242 are the same. If they are compare the boats and dealer head to head and you should be able to make your own decision. Maybe money is no object for the OP??????? I am just saying Supra makes an awesome proven boat as well and for my money I chose Supra cause I get as good of a boat for less money. Again this just just my opinion and I am a Supra owner. I try not to wear ownership goggles and I really do explore all brand boats pretty thoroughly and have had or been around all brands. So bottom line is my suggestion is to get a bottom line price on both boats and then your comparison should be easier. But again, if money is no object then just compare away like you are without a specific price determined. Either way you can't really go wrong. Those are both sweet boats and look forward to seeing what you get.
Old    NAW (ripr)      Join Date: Mar 2002       03-28-2012, 7:50 AM Reply   
Diggs post needs a 'like' button. lol.

I wish I was in the position of the original poster, one bad ass boat vs. another bad ass boat. I don't think you can really go wrong with either.

That being said, If I were the buyer in this pickle (if you wanna call it that) I'd write down the 5 most important aspects of my inboard boating/owning experience, then rank each model (preferably after test driving/riding/surfing/whatever the OP does behind the boat). These guys on here that say you need to load the boat up with 2K lbs on top of factory ballast are assuming you're at the level that needs that kind of wake, or that you even wakeboard more than surf, ski, tube, whatever. Believe it or not, I've sold a bunch of boats to buyers who don't care about how this wake performs against that wake. They know that if they fill the ballast, set the speed and have the right rope length, the wake will be fine for their ability level. Each buyer has his or her own set of needs and expectations out of their boat.

Disclaimer: I sell boats on the side for a dealer. We sell Nautiques, Supra and Moomba. For what I do with my boat, the 242 would be my choice. I prefer the handling, styling and cockpit over the 230.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       03-30-2012, 1:03 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhunter View Post
I read the posts here every day and I have had some pretty heated words with some of the members through it all the only thing people have against Nautique is price. I rarely read about gel cracks , tower problems, engine issues, warranty complaints etc.etc with Nautique . That is one of the reasons I bought one. If the best thing you can say about a boat is its just as good for less money you are only fooling yourself. Better cost more I have made costly mistakes in the past by buying price before quality you will never regret stepping up.

This post in no way is a slam of Supra they are a fine boat like Toyota is a fine car but just not a Lexus.Its your decision you only have to please yourself.
PS I own a Supra also.
If it costs more, it must be better, right mhunter?

In all seriousness that's how the above post sounds. I don't know about the rest of you, but that sales tactic has always struck me as insulting to my intelligence.

I wish you'd just say you picked Nautique because you think it looks cool and you like the brand image. Or you love the wake. Or you got a great deal. Or you love PCM. Or whatever. But instead you do the ole Toyota / Lexus routine. It's misleading.

As far as typical Nautique complaints, your comment about price being the ONLY beef folks have is not completely true... Much of the Nautique complaints come from the interior style/layout. It's a love it or hate it sort of deal. Some love it. Others hate it. But it comes up in virtually ever Nautique thread.

Other common complaints are dashboard style, drivers footwell, shallow interior, smallish interior, weird towers, temperamental wake, and lack of storage. These also come up frequently. In fact they all came up just last week! Have you been on vacation?
Old    Chris Bucklin (chrisbucklin)      Join Date: Mar 2012       03-30-2012, 2:20 AM Reply   
thank u all for ur comments. im new to this sight and found it very usefull so far. i like to here the opinion on thngs from ppl like me who use the boats and equiptment..not someone tryin to sell me somethin. im not sure what im goin to do yet. i need to get a stone price for the supra. the nautique i no i love and like the one on ebay in florida. but i will have many more questions in the future and want to thank u all for ur input! whats ppls opinion on rope length and boat speed for a 200lb person wakeboarding?
Old    Jay (ironj32)      Join Date: Jan 2007       03-30-2012, 4:00 AM Reply   
We ride the 230 at 90ft at 26.5 mph. This is with about 5000 lbs of ballast. Wake is sick! Perfect transition with the perfect kick at the top.
Attached Images
  
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       03-30-2012, 6:37 AM Reply   
If I was in your shoes, I'd want to know what the G23 is going to cost so I could consider what impact, if any, the G23 will have on the resale value of the 230. Also, I'd want to know if the 230 is being discontinued.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       03-30-2012, 7:35 AM Reply   
if it is being discontinues thatll drive the price down further i suppose

try em both, get the wake you like best because money is clearly no option. I will say that the nauti has a better interior but that supra is still a great boat. have fun shopping!
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       03-30-2012, 10:00 AM Reply   
DBC
''If it costs more, it must be better, right mhunter? '' You got it backwards anything that is made better will cost more right?

''but that sales tactic has always struck me as insulting to my intelligence.'' Your what?


''I wish you'd just say you picked Nautique because you think it looks cool and you like the brand image. Or you love the wake. Or you got a great deal. Or you love PCM.''

All of the above is true but the thing that sold me was the test drive I was going the buy a X15 until we drove the 210.

I think its clear you have a hate relationship with Nautique witch is fine I dont think you would fit in the Nautique family anyway. Ill make you a deal Ill never post anything bad about your previous brand or the new Malibu you have if you show the same respect for my boats.
Old    Brandon Zubke (bzubke1)      Join Date: Feb 2010       03-30-2012, 10:31 AM Reply   
These are two very different boat visually. I personally don't like the lines of the nautique 230 as much as the supra 242 but I'm sure there are just as many people that feel the opposite. The 230 is a sweet boat I just prefer the 242 in looks alone.
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-30-2012, 12:57 PM Reply   
hunter says "better costs more..." to validate the nautique price. Well, I would rather buy a 2012 ford explorer than pay twice as much for a 2012 range rover. The range rover is a pos, a nice looking and driving and feeling pos, but a "not built better " pos nonetheless.

Nautique is not a pos, and not sure about your statement to DBC that he would not "fit in the nautique family anyway". THAT right there is why so many people can't stand nautique owners. Most of us Love nautiques, just can't stand the owners. Nautique is the best is the "nautique mystique" that most people can not stand.

Nautiques have problems just like all the boat companies. Most nautique issues are subjective... interior layout/design, interior comfort, drivers helm, seating height, towers, wake shape. There are some complaints that are objective (my only real complaint of the 230 that keeps me away) is the finicky wake.

Supras fit your definition of a great boat, and the reason you bought your SAN: "the only thing people have against Nautique is price. I rarely read about gel cracks , tower problems, engine issues, warranty complaints etc.etc with Nautique" This has not been my experience, but even if it was, then Supra would be a the better choice. Search WW and you will rarely find any complaints with Supra's. Off the top of my head some complain that the low sloping bow looks funny or looks like it will take on water (no more than an xstar in my experience), the sacks instead of hard tanks, and the carpet seat bases... all subjective. No complaints of performance, wake, price, gel problems or cracks, tower issues, seating design or comfort...

OP is looking at 2 beautiful boats, but some of you act as if he is a lunatic for even thinking of not going with the 230, even though the 242 is bigger and probably cheaper, with more stock ballast available. different boats, not equal, but equally great

Last edited by johnny_defacto; 03-30-2012 at 1:01 PM. Reason: mis speak
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       03-30-2012, 1:18 PM Reply   
If prices were equal I would choose the 242 probably. With the 242 likely being cheaper there is no way I would choose the Nautique. I don't even think the 2 boats can really be compared to each other. The 242 is friggen huge while the 230 is only big. I much, much prefer the seating of the 242 although that is completely subjective. I am not a huge fan of just bags that are in the Supra but Nautique's ballast system isn't exactly a "game changer" like Epic or MB. I do like the cheapness and ease of upgrading bags in the Supra's. I also like that the 242 will have a trim tab. The nautique has the hydro gate but I don't think it is as beneficial as a trim tab. The hydrogate doesn't allow you to make the wake anymore mellow then with nothing on the transom, it does nothing to help keep the bow down for rough water ride or to help get on plane quicker/easier. I do prefer that the Nautique has the option of not having an LCD screen while it appears that the Surpa comes with it no matter what. I would prefer not ot spend the money on what I consider an unproven feature. I also like that the Supra jsut has a huge solid sunpad from the transom all the way up to the rear seat backs vs the Nautique with the huge walkthrough and weird seats and levels on the back. For me the wake performance of either would be way above what I would need although from the way people talk abotu the 230 not being able to get a clean wake at slower speeds would piss me off. If I had to ride with no ballast or at above 23 mph I would not enjoy the wake at all nor does it sound like most beginners would. Now, I have no idea if the Supra's wake can stay clean at slower speeds but at least with the wakeplate there is a good chance of it and a good way to mellow it way out for beginners.

By the way, what is the price difference between a comparably equipped 242 and 230?

Last edited by polarbill; 03-30-2012 at 1:21 PM.
Old    Miguel (migs)      Join Date: Aug 2006       03-30-2012, 1:42 PM Reply   
polarbill - the gate actually does those things. Mellows the wake or adds a steep lip - or blend of both. Also allows for easier getting on plane when heavily sacked. When im fully sacked out - i have to have my gate up , then once on plane drop it for the steep wake. And also keeps the bow down for rough ride(pushed down)
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       03-30-2012, 2:13 PM Reply   
Unless I have no idea how the hydrogate works it can't do anything to make the wake more mellow or help the boat get on plane then having nothing on the transom. I thought it was just a scoop/plate that picks up water when deployed to pull the rear of the boat down? Is there actually some way that the gate pushes the transom up/nose down?

Ok, I did some more internet research and see what you mean Miguel. I always though it was the channel piece that angled back that changed the wake but now see that it is just the plate that is flat against the transom. In the raised position it is like having nothing on the hull(letting the transom sit deeper) and when you drop the plate it create's a lip/hook(their older hulls had this lip/hook pushed the transom up/nose down making it better for skiing or making the wake flatter). So now I see it is basically a different way of creating the same effect as a trim tab although it seems a little weird it it just drops a plate which creates an abrupt lip that lifts the transom. I think I like the idea of the trim tab a little better.

Last edited by polarbill; 03-30-2012 at 2:22 PM.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       03-30-2012, 2:28 PM Reply   
I had a messed up sentence in the parentheses. I meant to say that the older hulls or at least the ski hulls had this lip/hook built into the fiberglass. later they removed that lip/hook in where the keel and transom meet and added teh hydro-gate to basically give you a wake hull that you can drop the plate to make the ski hull or something close to the ski hull. I always though the hydrogate made the wake bigger but in fact it's purpose is to make the wake smaller in ski mode.
Old    Chris Walker (redsupralaunch)      Join Date: Aug 2002       03-30-2012, 5:34 PM Reply   
Have you noticed how many parts the Supra and CC have in common now days? Roswell Towers, Murphy LCD dashes, ballast systems, Polk Audio Maybe they are in cahoots? Just kidding. My best advise is support you local dealer.

Your situation reminds me of my first Skier's Choice Boat. In 98 I was looking at a new MasterCraft ski boat and my wife said I could buy it. So we packed up the kids and wife and headed to the boat show knowing I was going to put a deposit on the 30K MC Duvall. My friend told me to check out the Moomba Outback. I spent 3 hours tearing that boat apart trying to figure out why in the hell it was 10K cheaper. SO THE WIFE already said I could spend 30K right? (Man those were the days) I custom ordered every stupid option on that Moomba and only spent 27K - Best motor, matching upolstered Igloo cooler, heater, shower, 2 tops bimini and convertible, every stupid option. My point is I bet you can order the 242 Worlds Edition with the supercharged caddy engine and all the ballast and bling you want and still spend less. Im just saying.

They are both very fine boats. You decide what values you, but what ever you do POST UP YOUR PICS OF YOUR NEW RIDE. Not enough people are buying new boats today.
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       03-31-2012, 10:27 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny_defacto View Post
hunter says "better costs more..." to validate the nautique price. Well, I would rather buy a 2012 ford explorer than pay twice as much for a 2012 range rover. The range rover is a pos, a nice looking and driving and feeling pos, but a "not built better " pos nonetheless.

Nautique is not a pos, and not sure about your statement to DBC that he would not "fit in the nautique family anyway". THAT right there is why so many people can't stand nautique owners. Most of us Love nautiques, just can't stand the owners. Nautique is the best is the "nautique mystique" that most people can not stand.

Nautiques have problems just like all the boat companies. Most nautique issues are subjective... interior layout/design, interior comfort, drivers helm, seating height, towers, wake shape. There are some complaints that are objective (my only real complaint of the 230 that keeps me away) is the finicky wake.

Supras fit your definition of a great boat, and the reason you bought your SAN: "the only thing people have against Nautique is price. I rarely read about gel cracks , tower problems, engine issues, warranty complaints etc.etc with Nautique" This has not been my experience, but even if it was, then Supra would be a the better choice. Search WW and you will rarely find any complaints with Supra's. Off the top of my head some complain that the low sloping bow looks funny or looks like it will take on water (no more than an xstar in my experience), the sacks instead of hard tanks, and the carpet seat bases... all subjective. No complaints of performance, wake, price, gel problems or cracks, tower issues, seating design or comfort...

OP is looking at 2 beautiful boats, but some of you act as if he is a lunatic for even thinking of not going with the 230, even though the 242 is bigger and probably cheaper, with more stock ballast available. different boats, not equal, but equally great
Johnny
This has been an ongoing thing between myself and DBC for some time now rest assured it has nothing to do with Supra or Nautique . Of course I think Nautique builds the best if I didn't I wouldn't own one . That docent mean other builders are bad you get what you pay for Aluminun in place of plastic, stainless in place of aluminum, thicker fiberglass, better warranty etc etc and so on. Keep in mind its not me bashing other boats. I just get tired of he endless stream of misinformation and put downs about Nautiques. Buy what you like and enjoy it It . I dont sell boats I dont care what you have .

By the way as I said before I ALSO OWN A SUPRA.
Old    mojo            03-31-2012, 10:39 AM Reply   
How can ANYONE. Complain about a nautique interior? It's the same wrap around as every other manufacturer, but you can flip the rear seat around flip up one to allow everyone to look at the rider without craning their necks. And they use nice materials. Either boat will be fine. While I'm a nautique owner for life, I'd honestly go with the dealer who treats you best. And PCM has a better overall maintenance history. As for the explorer/ range rover comparison, it does not work. That's like saying I'll buy a turbo sonata bc it's cheaper and will be just as nice as a 911. Higher prices usually mean nicer leathers, more complex car systems, and things like that.

Last edited by mojo; 03-31-2012 at 10:46 AM.
Old    Miguel (migs)      Join Date: Aug 2006       03-31-2012, 11:19 AM Reply   
Go find out what material Nautique uses as the stitching in their interiors and what others use in their stitching. Which is superior? You tell me? Let's start with that . Since we're talking Nautique interiors once again.

Last edited by migs; 03-31-2012 at 11:26 AM.
Old    Luke B (pureblue)      Join Date: Jun 2002       03-31-2012, 11:39 AM Reply   
I am sure the nautique interiors are made with the utmost quality. As far as the interiors not being for everyone. I would take that to be in reference to the straight edge design that they use. When I saw the interior at a boat show this year, it started to grow on me. However, in the past the design never really appealed to my taste.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       03-31-2012, 6:51 PM Reply   
To the OP... sorry for how this thread got sidetracked. You should really drive both boats and pick the one you like... the one you can't stop thinking about when you go to bed at night (sorta like a teenage crush). Making wakeboats is not rocket science. They are fiberglass tubs with engines in the back. Picking one is like picking a 1911 pistol (for those who are into that sort of thing). Lots of different companies with different interpretations of a classic, yet basic concept. But at their core, all 1911's are the basically the same, and they all shoot straight. Spending $1,400 on a Kimber Tactical Entry II (as I recently did) does not make me a better shooter than if I'd bought a $500 Springfield GI model. I bought the Kimber because I liked how it looked, that it was made in the USA, and I'm a sucker for the little details that really mean nothing in the grand scheme of things (e.g. When I showed my dad all the "checkering" on the gun and explained that it was an upgrade and a differentiator among other 1911's, he looked at me as if to say, "you are joking, right?"). Same applies to wakeboats. They are all good. The question is really which one is best for you and your family. Whatever you pick, your wife, kids, and friends will be impressed because they don't understand "checkering" either, or why you would pay more for it.

mhunter is right about one thing... my beef has less to do with Nautique than it does with his posts. He just comes across as a bit of a sell out for his chosen brand. And I don't like how he uses put downs and insults of other brands to solidify the "elite" status he believes he's achieved in life by owning a boat made my CC (his words, not mine). Not sure why he's so narrow minded. Is he one of those who is bought and paid for by his brand of choice...? Or does he just feel the need to justify his own purchase...? I'm sure we'll never know. But he appears to be here on WW with a clear agenda... push CC to anybody who will listen, and defend their honor against would-be bullies like me. What he doesn't understand is that his antics actually drive people away from his brand. When I'm shopping for my next boat in 2-3 years, I imagine I'll have a hard time looking closely at CC because of the bad taste he's left in my mouth. For better or worse, I now associate Nautique with mhunter. I'd like to think I can look past it, but I'm human and emotional just like everybody else.

I come to WW for completely different reasons. I was one of those kids who had subscriptions to all the major car magazines by the age of 12. I learned to love cars, regardless of brand and had fun forming opinions of different styles, features, etc. In my adult years that passion has switched to boats, and the magazine subscriptions have given way to countless hours on WW (probably the bigest time waster in my life). I see the good and bad in all the brands, and I'm a total sucker for a hot looking wakeboat. I'm not a sell out for any particular brand. I don't owe anybody anything. If you've paid attention over the years I like to talk about and post pics of lots of different boats. I've posted pics of hawt MC's, Bu's, Nautiques, Supras, MB's, etc. etc. I'm hear because I love wakeboats and I like to read and share experiences/opinions. I've owned MB, now Malibu, and who knows in the future... could just as easily be Supra, Tige, MC, or even Nautique (as much as mhunter wants to paint me as a CC hater). I'm what you might call a boat sucker... I like them all and want to own them all.

When I clash with people on WW it's usually not about boats... I am easily annoyed by people who make absolute statements without any data or facts to prove them. Opinions are fine. I have them and share them too. But I get annoyed with people who overposition and lie online. It's a fine line, but some cross it often and it's just a pet peeve of mine. For example, mhunter saying price is the only Nautique complaint you will ever see on WW. That is simply not true, and he knows it. I'm not saying he's a liar; maybe he just forgot or he's overpositioning things (as stated above). The WW archives show there is a long list of Nautique complaints. How many threads have I read about washed out and tempermental wakes on Nautique...? How many times have I read about the limited storage and low seats? Countless. To be fair, those complaints are not shared by all, but they exist nonetheless, and to pretend they don't is silly. When I point that out, I am not saying I agree with those complaints, just that they exist, and perhaps the OP might benefit from knowing them before he makes a BIG investment. There is a list like that for all the other brands as well. Anybody who spends a few hours on this forum can write those lists.

mhunter should take a page from Digg's book... he's clearly a Supra fan and makes no apologies for that. But notice how he never comes on here and behaves poorly, or pushes Supra over other boats. He seems to have an appreciation for the pros and cons of all the brands & models. He'll even point out changes he'd like to see in Supra. Fair and balanced.

A few final comments about cost (what the manufacturer pays) vs. price (what you and I pay). mhunter's statemends would lead you to believe that cost is the only variable to price. I am a finance controller over a product division at a fortune 100 company. I deal with product pricing every day of my life in a professional setting. There are many, many variables to how products are priced. Yes, cost is one. But not all manufacturers have the same cost structures (e.g. some are better at getting quality raw materials for less... this variable alone an is an art not shared equally by manufacturers. Some have more efficient manufacturing processes. Some have special supplier relationships, etc.). Even if you are naive and believe that cost structure is equal among all, then you have to look at gross margin expectations. Not all manufacturers have the same gross margin expectations for a variety of reasons (R&D, S&M, G&A... all companies have different approaches and spending levels to each of those). Finally there is the bottom line... how much do the owners/investors expect to make when all is said an done...? Surely you don't think all these companies have identical operating margin expectations, do you?? To blindly say that Nautique's higher price is 100% correlated to a higher cost structure which is 100% reflective of higher quality is so naive I can't even fathom it. That statement completely ignores the reality of the entire P&L and the complexities underlying each line... or the fact that each of the boat manufacturers have different "Model P&L's." As stated above, mhunter is overpositioning his agenda driven opinions with naive logic... typical logic used by the average consumer... but naive nonetheless.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       03-31-2012, 7:11 PM Reply   
Well said on several points D. I'd like to buy you a beer some day. That's a great post about the passion and the pricing.
Old    Chris C (cboom12)      Join Date: Jul 2004       03-31-2012, 8:12 PM Reply   
Well said DBC. With the new boat there has been a lot of CC threads and I can hardly stand to read them with all the nuthuggery going on.
Old    Miguel (migs)      Join Date: Aug 2006       03-31-2012, 10:34 PM Reply   
Hey DBC - 2 words:

Springfield
Operator
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       04-01-2012, 1:20 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by migs View Post
Hey DBC - 2 words:

Springfield
Operator
Man... you guys keep pulling this thread off course.

Migs, you have no idea how close I came to the Springfield TRP. It was either that or the Kimber TE II. It came down to which one I could find first in stock locally. I didn't want to wait 3 months or whatever. Funny thing... I still want that TRP!

The 4" Operator looks tasty too. Somebody please stop me!!
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       04-01-2012, 5:07 AM Reply   
DBC
Like a press release from a Democratic candidate your novel above is full of half truths. I fail to see why you read my loyalty to one brand as bashing another? Maybe you will own a Nauti someday and then you will know where I'm coming from . I totally understand what you are saying about feeling negative towards a brand I know almost nothing about . After the pounding I took by asking questions about the two letter M boat I feel the same way to the point I will never mention their name here again. Only difference is there was a chance I would have considered one before, after WW I dont care if I ever even see one.

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