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Old    Boardjunky (hookedonboardin)      Join Date: Oct 2006       09-22-2011, 2:01 PM Reply   
So looking at possibly upgrading my tower speakers this winter. I was looking at some of the new Wetsounds and Exile stuff

My concern is this........... I have 3 kids and an awesome wife who all love the boat. We have some Krypt audio 6.5HLCD's from a group buy on here about 2 yrs ago maybe more. While I can hear them while I am riding I am looking for just a bit more. I am worried the newer, bigger, higher quality tower speakers will be blasting them out of the boat. They are already pretty loud as it is with just the (2) 6.5 HLCD's.

I am curious to see how people relate the sound in the boat with the bigger higher quality gear. If you think it is going to be much more noticeable, or if there is a speaker that projects more than another to prevent the noise in the boat.

I have a Pac LC1 controller for fade and both my amps are on seperate relays so I will only be using the towers not running the inboats as well. 90% of the time. I haven't been in a boat with some high qauality tower speakers in about 5 years other than a few of my buddys boats with the factory JL gear up there. My last aftermarket tower speaker experience was in a friends Nauti with NVS speakers and that think cranked. So again just looking for some input on the upgrade. I know I am kind of asking for a lot here due to the fact of trying to get the tunes out at 75ft, but just curious as to what others think that know way more about the stereo gear than me .

Last edited by hookedonboardin; 09-22-2011 at 2:10 PM.
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       09-22-2011, 4:29 PM Reply   
hooked,
You have small 6.5" HLCDs which are mostly treble. They are certainly loud enough to project over distance but the midbass and lower midrange seriously lag behind. After the horn throat passes through the center of the midbass cone there is actually very little cone surface area remaining. The main emphasis of that speaker (and to a lessor degree many other 6.5" HLCDs) is treble that peaks exactly at a point that is most aggrevating to your senses. It doesn't take much volume for fingers on a chaulkboard to unnerve you.
So, a larger, warmer and even louder tower speaker is going to be preceived very differently. Once you hear a more balanced speaker on your tower it will immediately calm your concerns and will actually play much louder without irritating the in-boat passengers.
Look at a single pair of Exile XM9 8-inch HLCDs, a single pair of Wetsounds REV8 8-inch HLCDs or a single pair of Wetsounds REV10 10-inch HLCDs. The bigger the more 'linear' (as in smooth, balanced) the sound of the speaker will be and the more low frequency extension you will have.

David
Earmark Marine
Old    Boardjunky (hookedonboardin)      Join Date: Oct 2006       09-22-2011, 5:13 PM Reply   
Thanks for the reply David. Makes sense. Those are actually the two speakers I was considering.

I was also thinking this ....me again not much stereo guru............I plan on running a Wetsounds 420. I was thinking maybe if it was too harsh in cockpit area I would be able to turn down the mid a bit to maybe tone down the volume inside. Sure I would sacrifice the warmness at 75ft but from what I am coming from it would still be better.ut

Last edited by hookedonboardin; 09-22-2011 at 5:17 PM.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       09-22-2011, 5:17 PM Reply   
Is the XM9 not a 9" speaker? It's something like 9.12...
Old    Ron (Nordicron)      Join Date: Aug 2011       09-22-2011, 5:45 PM Reply   
I've got 2 WS 485's powered with 2 rockford t-600's and can tell you that for me to hear them "good and loud" at the end of the line going wake speed the passengers in the back of the boat GET BLASTED!! Don't let anyone tell you otherwise, for the rider to be able to hear them good and loud the people in the boat will go deaf unless they ride in the bow.
Old    Tallredrider (talltigeguy)      Join Date: Sep 2003       09-22-2011, 8:07 PM Reply   
I can tell you that people sit in the back seat of my 247 with the speakers on my Titan tower blasting and they do not mind. Every boat has a little bit of bow rise, so I think it is important to tilt the speakers slightly upward so that while riding, the speaker projects back parallel to the surface of the water. That also helps the people in the back of the boat.

This weekend I will be comparing my 2 pair of REV 10's with 2 pair of XM9's. Now that is going to get interesting.
Old    Bruizza (bruizza)      Join Date: May 2009       09-23-2011, 11:49 AM Reply   
Tilting them up is key. You only get blasted by ours if you are on the sunpad which isn't really a concern when someone is riding just in party cove.
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       09-23-2011, 1:32 PM Reply   
Quote:
This weekend I will be comparing my 2 pair of REV 10's with 2 pair of XM9's. Now that is going to get interesting.
Yeah that should be a nice little test though being objective may be difficult
Old    Tallredrider (talltigeguy)      Join Date: Sep 2003       09-24-2011, 9:45 PM Reply   
Got a chance to listen to the XM9's back to back with my REV 10's. Now I understand why people in the boat just don't complain about my tower speakers. The full sound from the REV 10's is simply not that annoying shriek that most other tower speakers have. The XM9's seem to make a person cringe when standing on the swimstep, and the REV 10's don't. And that is not to be confused with volume. The volumes were equal. Both are very loud.

There certainly are reasons to worry about objectivity here, but the owner of the XM9's thought the REV 10's sounded better also. And I have owned 2 types of NVS speakers with this being my first Wetsounds tower setup. So I have no special allegiance, just want loud music back to the rider that has a quality feel to it without making the folks in the boat cringe.
Old    Duane (nvsairwarrior)      Join Date: Aug 2003       09-26-2011, 12:13 AM Reply   
This is a very interesting post/question. It has received a lot of attention in the last several years, especially since the Illusion tower came out. When you have a tower that requires your speakers to be above the driver/observer (more forward) and less than 6 feet off the floor, the people in the back seat are going to get BLASTED!
Newer tower designs i.e. swoop style or simply taller/more rearward, will give the peeps in the back some reprieve. The bottom line here is the direction the speaker is aimed, the Off Axis Response of the given speaker, and has been noted above the smoothness/harshness of the speaker will have imlpact.
I’m going to take this opportunity to note 3 things;
1) HLCD’s with smaller than 10” mid bass drivers are going to be very “Bright” or very inefficient relative to larger Mid Bass driver products. This is a simple fact of the Compression Driver (the High Frequency Device) being so efficient that mid bass drivers less then 10” require the compression driver to be attenuated so much that energy is wasted simply Quieting the Compression driver. If this is not done, the result is a VERY bright sound that can be irritating to painful to listen to.
2) The OP has expressed concern with children in the back seat of his ride with loud tower speakers. I applaud you concern and offer (in addition to the above conditions to consider) the concept of Axial Response. A measured characteristic of speakers is to determine the efficiency of it’s Off Axis Response. In simple terms, this is how much energy is propelled from the central line of the driver axis. Some call this Dispersion, or how wide of an angle will the sound be transmitted/dispersed. From an Engineering perspective, this is generally displayed in a graph providing energy values in SPL in a Radial plot. Factors that influence the dispersion include the angles of the Cone, shape and size of the Dust cap, and shape of a horn/wave guide if applicable.
3) Lastly, simple volume control of the frequencies. I say “of the frequencies” because most systems (even rider based systems) will be tuned in a static environment, i.e. on a trailer or parked at a dock or? Not moving is the key here. NVS has from the beginning promoted “Rider Based Systems” which learning from experience has shown that a smoother Mid Bass response (if not a heavy mid bass response) is mandatory in order to have Fidelity to the rider at 20+ mph. Our early systems were quite bright as has been all other early HLCD products…yes ALL. Since NVS has been doing HLCD longer then all/any other tower speaker manufactures, the result is that we’ve had the luxury of having more time to refine the response. So successfully to the point that we are again being copied/followed in our tower speaker designs….which is fine as new NVS designs are ready and have been waiting for the rest of the industry to catch up.
Back to the OP, I suspect that you are not after the latest and greatest Tower speaker product, simply full spectrum at the rider without having to blast out the peeps (your family) in the back seat. While angling Upwards the speakers will certainly help in this endeavor, Low dispersion speakers is as or more significant in achieving the desired result.
If you’d like to know more on this subject please feel free to contact me at contact@nvs1.net
Duane
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       09-26-2011, 6:28 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvsairwarrior View Post
which is fine as new NVS designs are ready and have been waiting for the rest of the industry to catch up.
thats a pretty bold statement. but for 2k a pair and that kind of claim they better the best damn speakers ive ever heard at whatever length i ride at 3 feet or 300 feet.
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       09-26-2011, 8:30 AM Reply   
I welcome anyone to come demo our NVS system on the CIE Boat if you want to hear a perfectly tuned instance of NVS' product. The new stuff is amazing. In the boat, in the back seat, 80+ feet back, parked at the beach, houseboating, or wherever. Our tower sounds amazing; you never get the bright, ear-piercing annoyance. Our dealer, Chucktronics of Lodi, CA also has the tuning and Amp. formula down after years of experience. It's dialed.
Old    Eric Silva (getssum)      Join Date: Jul 2005       09-26-2011, 9:44 AM Reply   
NVS is #1 to me too. Everyone on my boat can't believe the midbass attack!
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       09-26-2011, 10:00 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplej View Post
thats a pretty bold statement. but for 2k a pair and that kind of claim they better the best damn speakers ive ever heard at whatever length i ride at 3 feet or 300 feet.
Put it into context. What is the price difference between these and 2 WS 485's? Same speaker design.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       09-26-2011, 1:24 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by 05mobiuslsv View Post
Put it into context. What is the price difference between these and 2 WS 485's? Same speaker design.
mis read initially didnt realize that for the 2k for the the pair of 2 speakers

the wet sounds are just under 1800
200 more dollars i can spend on an amp

regardless still a bold claim stating that everyone else is behind...

Last edited by simplej; 09-26-2011 at 1:31 PM.
Old    Duane (nvsairwarrior)      Join Date: Aug 2003       09-26-2011, 10:02 PM Reply   
OK, maybe a bit over the top but to leave it at “Same speaker design” may not even set well with Tim. I understand the basis for the statement but many differences exist between the 485 and Prodigy. Some may not be important to some, yet others may feel differently.
Going down this path, let’s hear from YOU the consumer what factors/characteristics are important in a top performing tower speaker! I’ll not even try to slant this by making suggestions, it’s all you, I assure you all the top manufacturers are listening/reading this thread!
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       09-26-2011, 11:07 PM Reply   
Same speaker design as in two midbass drivers and a compression driver in a pod, thought it was an apples to apples comparison when talking about hardware vs price. Meant nothing more and nothing less by the statement.
Old    Boardjunky (hookedonboardin)      Join Date: Oct 2006       09-26-2011, 11:39 PM Reply   
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Please disregard my post above this as it is a little choppy and hard to read. I went to tidy it up a bit as it was getting late and I had long day, but must have taken too long to revise it and was timed out. Sent the mods a note but if the read this before the note can you guys please delete my above post.

Again my apologies, but I felt compelled to chime in as the op of the post in response to the interest and clarify a few things before it started up again.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ok so here we go.........

I have talked w Duane a little and here is where I am at. For me, my concerns are probably a bit different than most. I want to be able to hear the music at 75ft clearly. I am not too concerned with how much mid/high equality there is as the end of the line so much as I am with the sound levels that arise inside the boat from wanting to hear the music. My concerns are for the driver and observer seat passengers more so than those on the rear bench. I am not concerned that much with the rear bench as I completely understand you will get "smoked" as you are in the direct path of sound. So my sound level concerns are coming from being a foot in front of the pods or more with them above you.

From the research I have done on my own it seems the top mfg's are trying to get the most "true" sound in and around the boat at the close levels as true as it is out to 75ft so to speak. Working on getting the horns and sound not so "sharp" However to do that it seems we are gaining much higher noise levels inside the boat from the bigger speakers. I have had some help here from my local shop and was taken out on a demo and here is what I was able to come away with after the demo.

Ran pair of Pro 60's off a Syn 2 and ran a pair of Rev 8's off a Syn 4 all dialed in by the stereo guy not me.

While I understand if you go bigger you will indeed get more noise inside. The difference between a pair of Pro 60's and the Rev 8 noise levels inside the boat are 10 fold. The best way to put it is you go from being able to have a conversation with the passenger to only being able to yell ear to ear. This is with the pods mounted roughly a foot behind the driver's seat. However the sound level volume wise at 75ft is about the same. Don't get me wrong..........in no way am I saying the Rev 8's don't put way more out there than the 60's. I am just saying at apprx the same sound levels behind the boat the people inside in front of/under the cans are hearing a ton more sound. The sq (ie mids highs and overall true sound) at the end of rope is obviously way different, but for me I just wanted a little more volume not necessarily a more true sound. We then pushed each to its max and I can tell you those Rev 8' s sounded awesome behind the boat. Sounded like I was sitting inside a movie theater compared to the 60's sq wise. However u needed earplugs as a driver.

So now to put it different way. The sound level being equal inside the boat the 60's were able to sound louder at the end of the rope. However u def don't get that "true" sound.

So that's what I am in search of. While I understand it means a little more noise in the boat to be louder at the end of the line.........I didn't think it would be as much of a difference as it was. I assume I am in the minority in that respect, and understand people probably think I am crazy trying to get more sound in back, but complaining about more in the boat........................................but that is what I am
after. So possibly maybe another set of 6.5 hlcds would be the ticket instead of jumping up to something bigger. Again I am no stereo guru and will never claim to have a kickass system. I am just a guy looking for a little more tunes while riding at the least cost to those in the boat.

Last edited by hookedonboardin; 09-26-2011 at 11:45 PM.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       09-27-2011, 10:07 AM Reply   
In comparing the 60s to the rev8s, did you try comparing them at equal levels in the boat to see what the experience was at the end of the rope? It sounds like the more powerful rev8 setup sounded louder in the boat (as you'd expect for a more powerful system), but I'm curious whether you are also saying that the rev8s don't throw as far as the 60s when volume is equal?

Interesting discussion. I went from two pairs of bullet hollowpoints on an illusion tower to two pair of Rev10s on an MB tower. Say what you will about the illusion tower, but one thing is for sure... that tower SUCKS for tower speakers. The mounting points are very low, very forward, and you have no ability to tilt the speakers to compensate for bow rise. Consequently anyone behind the driver or observer were literally BLASTED with HLCD sound... the lower speakers are actually right at head level. On the MB tower, on the other hand, the mounting point is nearly as far back as the rear seats, it's much higher, and the speakers can be tilted a bit. As far as the experience in the boat goes, it's my take that the speakers' physical location in relation to the cabin is the biggest factor.

Experience tells me I'm right too. In the Malibu, I could never hear the stereo behind the boat, even though it could get loud enough. Why not? Because my wife refused to turn it up loud enough to hear. In the MB I've got no problem hearing the stereo at the end of the rope. Two factors here... one, the high and back mounting point as mentioned above, and second, the Revs sound a lot better than the bullets, so the increased volume isn't as noticeable to my wife because there isn't a direct correlation between volume level and the feeling that someone is trying to split the passengers' skulls open with a chisel.
Old    Boardjunky (hookedonboardin)      Join Date: Oct 2006       09-27-2011, 12:46 PM Reply   
Shawn by no means am I saying that. We tested the speakers 4 different ways. At the same level on the head unit the Rev8's def had way more sound down the line. This was also no shock to me as you have way more surface area with a bigger driver/tweeter and way more wattage with the Rev 8's. What I am saying is that when the volume levels inside the cockpit were the same the Pro 60's had more sound down the line. I guess what is really the big thing that sticks out for me is that I didn't realize the trade off for a little louder more true sound was going to be so much more different on volume levels inside the cabin area when the passengers are located in front of the pods. The boat we were using was a 2004 X Series which was a 205v/X1 hull with the standard New Dimensions style tower. We had all 4 speakers mounted up and had the two amps mounted to acc switches so we could just switch back and forth. No interiors or the sub on at all. Just straight towers. An upgraded Pioneer head unit with 4v pre amp outputs. Our tests were done by ear with no db readers or sound detection devices. They are purely based our 3 pairs of ears, so i am sure there is some discrepancy there, but thats what we had. We used the song Tomorrow Can Wait by David Gerta. Always heard it was a good song to tune a stereo to as it has nice range of highs/mids/lows. It's little on the higher end, but it was a song we all agreed on to hear on repeat for 5 hours or so

(1) Levels same in boat for the driver/observe passenger, the 60's could be heard much better at the end of the line

(2)Levels same at the end of the line, the observer and driver were definitely feeling the punch on their ears from the Rev 8's

(3)Volume level set at 24 out of 35. The Rev 8's were much more true and loud at the end of the line. However, the Pro 60's weren't that far behind they were crisp and I could hear everything clearly. The difference to the passengers however was much more apparent . The passenger could have a normal level conversation with the driver with the 60's, while when the REV's were powered they had to yell almost ear to ear. To me the volume gain at the end of the line was no where near the ratio of volume gain inside the cabin. While I understand being 8-10ft away from the pods you will have a much more true ratio when raising the dail......the volume gain at the end of the line didn't even seem to be close to the same ratio. Again I understand you are 75ft away from the pod vs 10ft and there is other noise from engine and wind you have to overcome I just wasn't expecting such a huge huge difference for the passengers.

(4)We maxed out the stereo at 30 of the 35max on the read out. This is where the REv's kicked in huge. HOLY #$%^ were they cranking and did I feltl like I was on stage at the concert. And this was only with the 8's. I can't even imagine the 10's up there. We kind of knew the 60's would get destroyed here. Again tho you could still hear the 60's clearly back there, but definitely left you wanting a little more volume imo. In the boat however......you could still have a conversation with the 60's. but you def needed earplugs and no possibility of talking at all. Had everyone in the boat plugging up with the 8's powered up.

We didn't get to try and put a bimini in between the pods and the passengers to see how that worked out as the boat we were on had a custom over the top one on it. So it would have did us no good.

We also checked them out sitting still in a chill/party cove environment and surfing environment. To me this is where the Rev 8 beats on the 60's the most. Inside and around the boat the Rev 8's sounded so true and had so much more volume WITH LESS cockpit noise while swimming. The sound was also so true. It truly made a huge impression on us all. The 60's couldn't even come close. Same goes for surfing. The Rev 8's gave much more of a true sound and sounded louder at the end of the surf rope with about the same amount of cockpit noise as the 60's.

Again by no means am I expecting to keep the same volume level in the boat and expecting to get more at the end of the line. I am also not expecting to be sitting in front of the business/output end and expecting not to get blasted.......you cant get sound 75ft out with out driving it hard. I am just surprised at how much the volume level has to change inside the boat for the driver and passenger area which is in front of the pod with the bigger speakers and the difference it correlates to at the end of the line. It such a huge difference to me and something my wife and kids I am sure would definitely not appreciate for the minimal gain at the end of the line. Again this is all just my opinion based on purely ear level listening with zero electronic tools or readers.

Last edited by hookedonboardin; 09-27-2011 at 12:51 PM.
Old    Tallredrider (talltigeguy)      Join Date: Sep 2003       09-30-2011, 7:11 AM Reply   
Hooked,

Congrats on doing what everyone wishes they could do, actually go out and listen to them. Then you made the decision that is right for you. That is exactly the right way to do it. And props to your dealer for allowing you to do that and having a setup that allows that.

I can't help that comment that the results are surprising, more like shocking, really. Anyone reading this in the future should be aware that at least for me, I came to an opposite conclusion, and I have heard them both. To paraphrase in fewer words what you have said:

For people in the boat, the pro 60's were easier on the ears than REV 8's when they were turned up to equal volumes for the rider.

If I am misunderstanding, please clarify.
Old    Ron (Nordicron)      Join Date: Aug 2011       09-30-2011, 6:05 PM Reply   
I'm willing to bet that really the only true sound that a person really hears while being towed on the wake board is the sound coming from the HLCD horns and the woofers are really just a bunch of wasted noise inside the boat that never really gets to the rider.

Another cool test would be actually taking a pair of revs or 485's or really any HLCD and disabling the horns and seeing if you could actually hear the speakers at the end of the rope.


i'm starting to think a less obnoxious and better sounding system for the rider might just be waterproof headphones and a waterproof ipod case! cheaper too
Old    Boardjunky (hookedonboardin)      Join Date: Oct 2006       09-30-2011, 7:33 PM Reply   
Tall,


Not sure what u mean? You found that the 8's had less noise in the cabin when at the same volume out at 75ft than the 60's?

Last edited by hookedonboardin; 09-30-2011 at 7:41 PM.
Old     (pprior)      Join Date: Jan 2012       01-28-2012, 9:34 AM Reply   
Any further discussion on this? I'm getting ready to upgrade my stock 4 can system (roswell /pheonix gold) and was planning on either REV8 or Rev10 (one pair instead of 2 to start). My goal is better sound and volume back on the rope, but I do not want to make it worse/louder/harsher for the people on the boat.

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