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Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       02-19-2017, 11:30 AM Reply   
75 years ago today President Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066 which forced 80,000 American citizens (and 40,000 more immigrants) out of their homes (losing their businesses and most if not all they owned) and into concentration camps with appalling and inhumane conditions including being forced to live in horse stables. Roughly ONE THIRD of those forced into the concentration camps were school age children.

Before Rod comes rumbling in with his revisionist history saying they "weren't concentration camps" that term is exactly what FDR used himself: "What arrangements and plans have been made relative to concentration camps in the Hawaiian Islands for dangerous of undesirable aliens of citizens in the event of national emergency?"

At the Lordsburg facility where prisoners were forced to build war machinery, physically disabled prisoners who were incapable of running were shot in the back by a guard who claimed they were trying to escape - he was pronounced not guilty by an army court-martial board.

Timely reminder of what paranoia and populism can do.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-19-2017, 11:52 AM Reply   
...and if you go back a little more than 75 years before that, democrats were pushing hard to retain the right to own their slaves. Wes, you need to stop hyperventilating.
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-19-2017, 12:33 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by markj View Post
...and if you go back a little more than 75 years before that, democrats were pushing hard to retain the right to own their slaves. Wes, you need to stop hyperventilating.
And we know now that was wrong and have hopefully learnt from it. History is a great teacher but you have to pay attention to it and recognise danger when you see it.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       02-19-2017, 12:35 PM Reply   
Exactly. Important for the rest of us to remember history so the pieces of chit like Mark that are working to destroy our education system don't repeat it.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-19-2017, 1:02 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph View Post
And we know now that was wrong and have hopefully learnt from it. History is a great teacher but you have to pay attention to it and recognise danger when you see it.
Uh, people knew it was wrong back then too. Thank God for the republicans that fought for freedom from slavery.
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-19-2017, 1:02 PM Reply   
Also, just shows the mindset where Mark assumes Wes is playing the left/right game because the example he used was a Republican president so he immediately fires back with an example of the left being bigots. No, that's not the point Wes was making, Roosevelt was a man of his time, as a people we have come a long way, let's show it when the new attack on immigrants comes.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-19-2017, 1:04 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by pesos View Post
Exactly. Important for the rest of us to remember history so the pieces of chit like Mark that are working to destroy our education system don't repeat it.
Newsflash: That system has ALREADY been ruined by liberal propaganda being part of the ciriculum as well as teacher's unions.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-19-2017, 1:07 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph View Post
Also, just shows the mindset where Mark assumes Wes is playing the left/right game because the example he used was a Republican president so he immediately fires back with an example of the left being bigots. No, that's not the point Wes was making, Roosevelt was a man of his time, as a people we have come a long way, let's show it when the new attack on immigrants comes.
I thought you were smarter than that. I guess you don't have the ability to read between the lines of what Wes said.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       02-19-2017, 1:11 PM Reply   
One of the internment camps, Manzanar, is operated by the US Park Service as an historical site. South of Lone Pine between LA and Mammoth. Well worth the stop if you are ever in the area. There's a movie that plays every 20 minutes or so and a very well done museum. If you've driven by but never stopped because you weren't sure it'd be worth it -- it's definitely worth an hour of your time.
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-19-2017, 1:15 PM Reply   
Why are the LIBERALS torturing themselves with such hyperbole. Nobody is going to be put into camps. Legal immigration will continue.

Why not judge Trump on what he does? OK. Yes, his first travel ban was released poorly and imperfectly. Would have been better if he had his cabinet in place.

Other than this, where's the beef?

Last edited by diamonddad; 02-19-2017 at 1:17 PM. Reason: xxsss
Old     (TheWakeIsReal)      Join Date: Jun 2016       02-19-2017, 1:30 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by markj View Post
...and if you go back a little more than 75 years before that, democrats were pushing hard to retain the right to own their slaves. Wes, you need to stop hyperventilating.
Again Mark, you need to read a history book. In slave times were democrats for small government or big government? Answer me that and we can continue.
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-19-2017, 1:36 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by diamonddad View Post
Why are the LIBERALS torturing themselves with such hyperbole. Nobody is going to be put into camps. Legal immigration will continue.

Why not judge Trump on what he does? OK. Yes, his first travel ban was released poorly and imperfectly. Would have been better if he had his cabinet in place.

Other than this, where's the beef?
His constant demonization of immigrants as thieves, rapists and terrorists stokes the fires of bigoted behavior. The muslim ban is the exact opposite of the ideals the land of the free used to hold itself to. And build the wall is a retarded waste of money but sends a message to the bigots we are on this side of the wall, they are on the other. Them and us. Confrontation. War.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-19-2017, 1:47 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph View Post
His constant demonization of immigrants as thieves, rapists and terrorists stokes the fires of bigoted behavior. The muslim ban is the exact opposite of the ideals the land of the free used to hold itself to. And build the wall is a retarded waste of money but sends a message to the bigots we are on this side of the wall, they are on the other. Them and us. Confrontation. War.
Oh pluhlease! Get a grip, man. You libbies are the only ones who look at everything through the prism of race. All you want to do is separate and draw ficticious lines of demarcation in the sand so you can go report back to your troops and get em more riled up if something isn't done as you would do it. Then the violence starts. Well guess what, we had 8 years of your version and it went down like a lead balloon. Now it's our turn.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-19-2017, 1:49 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWakeIsReal View Post
Again Mark, you need to read a history book. In slave times were democrats for small government or big government? Answer me that and we can continue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BODSCrj9FHQ
Old     (TheWakeIsReal)      Join Date: Jun 2016       02-19-2017, 1:54 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by markj View Post
Again you prove you have absolutely no clue about the history of your party. You can't even answer a simple question that a middle schooler would be able to answer.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-19-2017, 1:55 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph View Post
His constant demonization of immigrants as thieves, rapists and terrorists stokes the fires of bigoted behavior. The muslim ban is the exact opposite of the ideals the land of the free used to hold itself to. And build the wall is a retarded waste of money but sends a message to the bigots we are on this side of the wall, they are on the other. Them and us. Confrontation. War.
Did it ever occur to to you that all he's doing is upholding the EXISTING laws of our country like he promised (and should) -which every other recent POTUS has only paid lip service to and lied about? (that includes repubs as well as dems)

Last edited by markj; 02-19-2017 at 1:58 PM.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-19-2017, 1:56 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWakeIsReal View Post
Again you prove you have absolutely no clue about the history of your party. You can't even answer a simple question that a middle schooler would be able to answer.
Blah blah blah blah....
Old     (TheWakeIsReal)      Join Date: Jun 2016       02-19-2017, 2:01 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by markj View Post
Blah blah blah blah....
Your opinion would hold more merit if you would just simply answer a question like that. I won't hold it against you that you were wrong.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       02-19-2017, 2:03 PM Reply   
You can't have a rational discussion with a fool like Mark. Stick to sane republicans like Dane.

Speaking of Dane, how could you possibly expect his cabinet to be in place five days after taking office, which was when that ridiculously broken EO was issued?
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-19-2017, 2:11 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by pesos View Post
Timely reminder of what paranoia and populism can do.
I've spent enough time putting the stick in your spokes so, I'll be serious now. First off, the only paranoia being displayed is by the left when they hear Trump is following the laws of our nation. For you to bring up the Japanese internments and trying to parallel them with Trump following the law, well, that's just sad, weak and pathetic. Second, to sum up Trump deporting criminal illegals as being populist, that just shows you have no grip on the situation. It's one of the main reasons he won. Seriously, man... You're gonna give yourself a heart attack if you keep all this hate up. It's gotta be wearing you down.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-19-2017, 2:13 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by pesos View Post
You can't have a rational discussion with a fool like Mark. Stick to sane republicans like Dane.

Speaking of Dane, how could you possibly expect his cabinet to be in place five days after taking office, which was when that ridiculously broken EO was issued?
Big kisses. I love you too, schmoopsie!
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-19-2017, 2:18 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by markj View Post
You libbies are the only ones who look at everything through the prism of race.
I'm not Libral, I don't prescribe to left/right or identify with having a "side". Anyway do you recognise you view everything through the left/right prism?


Quote:
Originally Posted by markj View Post
Did it ever occur to to you that all he's doing is upholding the EXISTING laws of our country like he promised (and should) -which every other recent POTUS has only paid lip service to and lied about? (that includes repubs as well as dems)
Seems quite a few judges disagree with you.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-19-2017, 2:22 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph View Post
I'm not Libral, I don't prescribe to left/right or identify with having a "side". Anyway do you recognise you view everything through the left/right prism?




Seems quite a few judges disagree with you.
Yeah... Liberal judges who are KNOWN, bench legislators. Come on!
Old     (TheWakeIsReal)      Join Date: Jun 2016       02-19-2017, 2:25 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by markj View Post
Big kisses. I love you too, schmoopsie!
Just remember Mark, and repeat after me, in slave times the republicans were what you would refer to as the large government supporters, and the democrats were the small conservative government type. So just don't you forget now that it were really your ideologies that were fighting to keep slavery. You look at parties like they're sports teams. Ideologies are what you should look at.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-19-2017, 2:27 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph View Post
I'm not Libral, I don't prescribe to left/right or identify with having a "side". Anyway do you recognise you view everything through the left/right prism?




Seems quite a few judges disagree with you.
It's safe to say that most of what you put down here is from the left. As for the left/right prism thing, it depends on the subject. I'm largely silent on a few topics because I disagree with both sides, but I don't go around claiming to be some "free thinker" which is so trendy right now.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-19-2017, 2:34 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWakeIsReal View Post
Just remember Mark, and repeat after me, in slave times the republicans were what you would refer to as the large government supporters, and the democrats were the small conservative government type. So just don't you forget now that it were really your ideologies that were fighting to keep slavery. You look at parties like they're sports teams. Ideologies are what you should look at.
I can tell you're gonna start crying if I don't capitulate here so, yes. I know you're right in spirit. I'm just technically right. I was just having fun and giving you guys an opportunity to show that you have no senses of humor. Some things will never change. Here's a bet. I bet you guys rarely smile. I bet your family photos look like they were taken in the 1800's. No smiles allowed.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       02-19-2017, 2:43 PM Reply   
Lol yeah, W picked them because hey we're known liberals. You lie almost as often as Trump.

Next you're gonna say Justice Roberts is a known liberal bench legislator lol.

To Mark these words all just mean "they're not giving me my way" just like trump
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-19-2017, 2:45 PM Reply   
From the left: Wes and his wife, Darren and his wife and thewakeisreal with his shack-up girlfriend. http://www.fotocommunity.com/photo/1...e-vida/8730714
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-19-2017, 2:53 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by markj View Post
From the left: Wes and his wife, Darren and his wife and thewakeisreal with his shack-up girlfriend. http://www.fotocommunity.com/photo/1...e-vida/8730714
You got to admit I've got a pretty gangster beard
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       02-19-2017, 4:18 PM Reply   
Speaking of photos, look at what those crazy libs put together to make it falsely seem like there was racism involved
Attached Images
     
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-19-2017, 7:26 PM Reply   
^^^What happened to the Japanese was deplorable and so unfair. (not in the Hillary context, much worse) How is that in any way, shape, or form relevant to deporting people who have snuck into our country illegally? BTW, when did any Mexicans attack our country like Pearl Harbor? You are totally BAKED. Like way out in left field. Like, "where's my car, man"?......
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       02-19-2017, 7:30 PM Reply   
First of all, this did not happen to "the Japanese." This happened to American citizens. And where at any point did I say anything about deporting people in any way shape or form? Point it out please. I have no problem with deporting people - especially violent criminals. Heck I'm all for a citizenship test that includes grammar and spelling. Half the rubes on this board can head out with the violent illegals.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-19-2017, 7:39 PM Reply   
Split hairs much? "paranoia and populism" It was in your original post. I took it to mean you're trying to draw a parrallel line between the treatment of Japanese/Americans from yesteryear and current illegal Mexicans about to be deported. Otherwise, what's the point of even starting this stupid thread?
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       02-19-2017, 7:43 PM Reply   
I think the 75th anniversary of pretty much the worst thing we've done to our own citizens stands on its own. No one drew any parallels to the ice raids but you. I do think there are parallels with what Trump did to permanent residents that could be drawn though, if that makes you feel better.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-19-2017, 9:11 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by pesos View Post
I think the 75th anniversary of pretty much the worst thing we've done to our own citizens stands on its own. No one drew any parallels to the ice raids but you. I do think there are parallels with what Trump did to permanent residents that could be drawn though, if that makes you feel better.
Come on man. You're like a wolf in sheep's clothing. It was plain to see what you were attempting. I was just the only one bored enough to take the bait and call you out on it.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       02-19-2017, 9:16 PM Reply   
You really do think you know everything, don't you? Your ego is quite a thing (although surprisingly fragile). Do you know people who were forced into the concentration camps? I do. One at the age of four.
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-19-2017, 9:41 PM Reply   
I am only a fiscal conservative. A lover of regulated capitalism and law-order. I am registered republican but I have ZERO interest in their social desires. And, before Trump, I was horribly angry with their fiscal moves. GWB was my most hated POTUS ever even though I think he is a decent god fearing simpleton. Trump, while difficult to defend, is appealing from a standpoint of trade, economy and security. I love all races and most cultures. Religions and cultures are a different story and IMO open to criticism since they are just ideas. Religions and cultures that are in conflict with our freedoms should be heavily scrutinized.
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-19-2017, 10:06 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by diamonddad View Post
I am only a fiscal conservative. A lover of regulated capitalism and law-order. I am registered republican but I have ZERO interest in their social desires. And, before Trump, I was horribly angry with their fiscal moves. GWB was my most hated POTUS ever even though I think he is a decent god fearing simpleton. Trump, while difficult to defend, is appealing from a standpoint of trade, economy and security. I love all races and most cultures. Religions and cultures are a different story and IMO open to criticism since they are just ideas. Religions and cultures that are in conflict with our freedoms should be heavily scrutinized.
I share very similar ideals to you. I liked Obama for his charm, silky smooth demeanor and inclusive nature but you have to be able to balance the books before anything else.

If Trump reforms the US tax system for the better it "might" offset his other stupidity imo. I'll still ridicule his narsassim and bigotry daily tho.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-19-2017, 10:32 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by pesos View Post
You really do think you know everything, don't you? Your ego is quite a thing (although surprisingly fragile). Do you know people who were forced into the concentration camps? I do. One at the age of four.
Well, tell your mystery person that I'm truly sorry for what he/she and/or their family endured. It wasn't right and it's something our country should feel ashamed of. Having said that, you should feel ashamed that you're minimizing their trauma by equating it to our current illegal immigration problem that Trump is in the process of working through. It doesn't even compare. No wonder liberals lost the election.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       02-19-2017, 10:35 PM Reply   
Again, since your peabrain seems to have trouble reading, no one said anything about illegal immigration. I did mention legal permanent residents. Read it again - slowly.

And the concentration camp survivors themselves are the ones drawing the parallels and speaking out against Trump, if you care to actually look into it.
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       02-19-2017, 11:52 PM Reply   
If they polled USA citizens, I wonder how many would say the internment was a bad move. I would bet very high 90s.

Obviously, this has nothing to do with slowing/stopping illegal immigration from Mexico and slowing/stopping dangerous immigration from radical Islamic countries with poor vetting databases.
Old    Markj (markj)      Join Date: Apr 2005       02-20-2017, 12:15 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by pesos View Post
Again, since your peabrain seems to have trouble reading, no one said anything about illegal immigration. I did mention legal permanent residents. Read it again - slowly.

And the concentration camp survivors themselves are the ones drawing the parallels and speaking out against Trump, if you care to actually look into it.
Bite me.You are an offensive tool of a person now. You created a stupid, Captain Obvious thread in the first place like you were so profound in your thoughts. Please..... Oh, and you still have no sense of humor and you take yourself way too seriously. Can't forget this too: Trump is still your president. Suck on that, pal. Night night, schmoopsie. Mwa.
Old     (simplej)      Join Date: Sep 2011       02-20-2017, 6:38 AM Reply   
https://youtu.be/auZRVqrCLY8?t=13s

Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       02-20-2017, 8:55 AM Reply   
ugh. typical
Old    D C (DCross)      Join Date: Jul 2016       02-20-2017, 10:15 AM Reply   
I thought this was a wakeboarding website/forum?
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       02-20-2017, 10:24 AM Reply   
For the third time, this is the non-wakeboarding section.
Old    Brett W (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       02-20-2017, 12:42 PM Reply   
Here's a story on this I just came across:

https://www.good.is/features/a-day-i...3c354c456e1db2
Old    Hey, You scratched my anchor! (bftskir)      Join Date: Jan 2004       02-20-2017, 1:51 PM Reply   
Saw an interview with a guy who was 12 when sent to Manzanar. He said that for kids it was like a vacation. They had no chores. They played everyday. For adults it was a different experience.

Any of you historians know anything about Mountain Meadows Massacre? Those Mormons can be terrorists too. Religion killed innocent Americans ...A massacre...Men women children...All killed unarmed by liars who assured them safe passage. Truly evil.
Old    Danny Simon (wakerider42)      Join Date: May 2002       05-22-2017, 1:51 PM Reply   
Definitely interesting and important to reflect on this topic. I run into many people who have never heard of this, so itís a good history lesson and / or reminder.

I'm 1/4 Japanese - my grandmother was the child of first generation Japanese immigrants who came over in the late 1890ís. Her entire family was interned at various camps. She was at Manzanar with her mom and a couple siblings. She was a youngster at the time, I think in her teens. Her mother died at Manzanar. Their family farms were taken and they basically lost everything they had when they were forced into the camps. They did what they could to maintain some semblance of normal life, maintaining gardens and such, trying to stay active in sports and learning. But obviously living there was not a choice they would make on their own.

My grandmother ended up meeting my military grandfather in US-occupied Japan while she was there post-WWII returning her mother's ashes. That's an interesting story - I'm sure some stigma came along with "dating the enemy"... Unfortunately, my grandfather died when he was 61 (donít drink and smoke, folks!) when I was about 7, so I never got to talk to him about things as an adult. I would have loved to hear information and stories from him.

Grandma is 90 now, we're definitely starting to lose those pieces of knowledge and history. I try to learn from her every time we visit - it's pretty interesting / enlightening. At a recent gathering, we learned about how she had an older brother who she never met, because he was sent to Japan for some schooling and WWII broke out while he was there; he was subsequently forced to fight for the Japanese army even though he was technically an American citizen (he died abroad).

My wife and I stopped by Manzanar fairly recently, and it was a very good experience. I echo the comment from Shawndoggy that it's worth your time to check it out. It was sobering to see my grandma's name written in the log books on display there.

I'm not looking at this post politically per se, but do see some parallels with regard to the sentiment around certain backgrounds, especially those of middle-eastern descent. I have friends and co-workers from various places such as Afghanistan and Palestine, etc. and you see and hear of things that are not that far off from the "This is a white town, Japs move on" rhetoric. Will history repeat itself? Probably not to the same magnitude as the Japanese-American internment during WWII, but I know there is a certain aspect of this floating around out there.
Old    plhorn (plhorn)      Join Date: Dec 2005       05-30-2017, 2:15 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by markj View Post
I don't go around claiming to be some "free thinker" which is so trendy right now.
GOD knows NO-ONE would accuse you of being a "free thinker", an unfree thinker, or any other kind of thinker for that matter.
Old    Alex Brown (AlexBrown)      Join Date: May 2017       05-30-2017, 10:51 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bftskir View Post
Saw an interview with a guy who was 12 when sent to Manzanar. He said that for kids it was like a vacation. They had no chores. They played everyday. For adults it was a different experience.

Any of you historians know anything about Mountain Meadows Massacre? Those Mormons can be terrorists too. Religion killed innocent Americans ...A massacre...Men women children...All killed unarmed by liars who assured them safe passage. Truly evil.
This was really really devastating.
Fairfax Towing
Old    Cliff (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       06-03-2017, 8:52 AM Reply   
my wife is Japanese. Her family lived on Oahu during the war. There is a little known place up in the mountains where the locals were "herded" right after the attack. One of the cousins took us up there once. It was kinda spooky, but interesting.

In the long run, the Hawaiian Japanese locals were not treated poorly. I know that it was different for some of the extended family on the west coast of the main land

I did have the privilege of interviewing the great uncles. They were working the cane fields when the Zeros flew directly above them. They were flying so low, that they could see the faces as the pilots looked down at them.

I need to dig around in my film/picture box and rewatch that.

I'm sure that it is glaringly amateurish. I wish that I could have just produced it and let someone with real interviewing skills do the interaction.

to late now :-(
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       06-03-2017, 12:17 PM Reply   
Cliff, "not treated poorly" is an incorrect characterization. Thousands of people were put in concentration camps here on Oahu including hundreds of American citizens.
Old     (TheWakeIsReal)      Join Date: Jun 2016       06-03-2017, 12:30 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by pesos View Post
Cliff, "not treated poorly" is an incorrect characterization. Thousands of people were put in concentration camps here on Oahu including hundreds of American citizens.
People in the holocaust "weren't treated poorly" either.
Old    Cliff (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       06-03-2017, 2:04 PM Reply   
thanks
all I know is what the great uncles told me. Apparently, they and their friends helped with the cleanup, and were not part of a concentration camp. I apologize if that doesn't represent others. I certainly wasn't trying to diminish the atrocities of the time.

and thanks Wake, your perspective is always interesting reading

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