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Old    Travis Q (motogod77)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-30-2011, 1:07 PM Reply   
I'm not trying to open a can of worms here, but out of the CA boat builders how would you guys rate them . . . . Wake, Surf Wake, Price Quality, Durability, Etc.

Just curious what ya'll think

Centurion, Sanger, Supreme, MB, Calabria, Malibu, Epic (I think that's all of them)
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       08-30-2011, 1:17 PM Reply   
Malibu doesn't build in ca anymore.
Old    Travis Q (motogod77)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-30-2011, 1:23 PM Reply   
I was curious about that - I heard rumors, but nothing for sure - OK leave Mali out then, I think that levels out the playing field quite a bit anyway.
Old    Dave H (masterDraft)      Join Date: Jan 2011       08-30-2011, 1:33 PM Reply   
almost certain that epics are now built in louisiana
Old     (moto817)      Join Date: Jan 2011       08-30-2011, 1:43 PM Reply   
Go test drive an MB it will do the talking for me. I dont think you can get a better quality boat for the price.
Old    Dave Kiehl (dave27)      Join Date: May 2005       08-30-2011, 1:59 PM Reply   
I own a Sanger (and Love It) but I am really curious about the MB boats. They seem really super cool except the big RV graphics and vinyl. Centurion turned me off 8 years ago and I have never looked back, same with Supreme. I know nothing about the Calabria. Good luck.
Old    Jay T. (wakebrdjay)      Join Date: Apr 2008       08-30-2011, 2:37 PM Reply   
For what I paid for my Fineline built Supreme,I have zero complaints.The wake surf wave is great on both sides and the wakeboard wake is more than sufficient for my 49 year old body.I have a 2007 V 212 and love it.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       08-30-2011, 3:05 PM Reply   
Not sure you can just take the entire boat line and compare like that. You need to compare individual models. That being said the MB 21's and 23's seem to be really good/above average in every aspect except skiing. I would rank like this.

MB
Centurion
Sanger
Calabria(do they actually have any dealers and make boats still)
Supreme
Old    Travis Q (motogod77)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-30-2011, 3:13 PM Reply   
I understand model comparison from one line to the next or one model vs another - but overall who is building the best boats in Cali these days. From most of the prices I've seem minus maybe the new Enzo 244 a lot of these boats are priced pretty close to one another if the options are similar, they are bulit within a few hours of eack other (or minutes for that matter) so who is going to be the top dog going into 2012?
Old    Dustin Lacefield (DustyL)      Join Date: Aug 2011       08-30-2011, 3:56 PM Reply   
Calabria went out of business.
Old    Eric Silva (getssum)      Join Date: Jul 2005       08-30-2011, 4:04 PM Reply   
Calabria is no longer building "Calabria" boats, but is now building Supreme's.

Supreme's were built in Centurion's (Fineline) factory up until a few years ago, so their quality is almost exactly the same on the older models.

MB and Centurion have both really stepped up the last few years, Centurion trying to become one of the Big Three (Mastercraft, Malibu, Nautique)

Both MB and Centurion are incorporating the PureVert ballast system Mike Murphy designed, and Calabria used to be the only one who had it. Say what you will, but until you see it in action, you don't get it! MB and Centurion both use PCM marine engines, which their owners rave about. Centurion used to use Mercruiser, which was fine, but it seems like Mercruiser is behind the times in the towboat world with their max engine topping out at 340HP.

Sanger is a step behind MB IMHO as they've been slower to introduce new features that people are begging for. A new top deck on the V210 would alleviate MANY fears that people have regarding the low freeboard of their boats. Their platform seat add on thingy for the V-215 seemed very odd, however functional, to most. Their V237 is a gorgeous boat, excellent fit and finish, retractable vinyl seat in back is a great idea as well. From what I can tell the V230 is pretty much dead now as the price difference between it and a V237 wasn't much. So their V-drive lineup is V210, V215, and V237. I've ridden the v215, and thought it was nice. V210 owners love their boats as well, and so do V237 owners.

Supreme (and I'm a Supreme owner) has been producing the same boats for a while, except for the V226. I really like my V220, the narrow beam definitely keeps the fuel prices down, and the boat throws a great wake at 21mph with no extra ballast. The additional freeboard/deeper seating is what made me choose this boat instead of a V210 for the same money or a V215 for a little more money.

What almost all of these brands lack is Nationwide marketing. Sanger and Supreme are the worst at this. Sanger was using the same brochure for like 4 years. Supreme's website hasn't been updated majorly since the V226 came out. MB is growing into new areas, and with their less polarizing graphics, new features, and most importantly VALUE they are quickly becoming a much bigger player. Centurion seems to be doing the best, they've got a great website, iphone app, etc.

It's always fun to use Google maps to see what these factories look like.

MB - 280 Airpark Road, Atwater, CA

http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-8...ed=0CBYQ8gEwAA

Centurion/Fineline Industries -

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&cl...ed=0CBkQ8gEwAA

All the orange things you see are boat molds! And it looks like their lake has gone dry!

Sanger boats - 3316 Annadale ave, Fresno, CA

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=3316+E...ed=0CBkQ8gEwAA

Ski Supreme / Calabria / International Inboard Marine

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=2556+W...ed=0CBoQ8gEwAA

And just for fun, here's Malibu's CA location, the one that's no longer building boats.

http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-8...e&ved=0CAQQ_BI



I'm of the idea that there is NO perfect boat for everyone. If you bought a boat from ANY of the above companies you're be buying a quality product. It comes down to features you want, price you want to pay, and other criteria to help you make your decision.
Old    Dave H (masterDraft)      Join Date: Jan 2011       08-30-2011, 4:45 PM Reply   
to give you some perspective from the midwest, i can honestly say that 90% of all beginner to mid-level wakeboarders in indiana & ohio have never heard of supreme, sanger, & mb. centurion on the other hand is a well known brand, behind cc, mc, & malibu. though i can't say nationwide popularity is correlated to business success/viability, i believe it can't hurt a company to have dealers in all regions. just food for thought.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       08-30-2011, 4:49 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by masterDraft View Post
to give you some perspective from the midwest, i can honestly say that 90% of all beginner to mid-level wakeboarders in indiana & ohio have never heard of supreme, sanger, & mb. centurion on the other hand is a well known brand, behind cc, mc, & malibu. though i can't say nationwide popularity is correlated to business success/viability, i believe it can't hurt a company to have dealers in all regions. just food for thought.
and to put THAT in perspective, I was told that MB was the #2 boat sold in CA last year.
Old    Jeff Moore (jeff359)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-30-2011, 5:10 PM Reply   
I drove passed the Calabria factory about 2 weeks ago, didn't look like much of anything being built.
Old    Jay T. (wakebrdjay)      Join Date: Apr 2008       08-30-2011, 5:51 PM Reply   
That's one thing I like about my Supreme,I haven't seen another one anywhere with the same color scheme(all black w/white stripe) or another V 212 around on lakes I've been on.Through 4 seasons now with it and the hull only has 1 small stress crack and it's under the end of the bow grab rail where it mounts to the top cap.The tower is rock solid no shaking or noise and no gel cracks anywhere around the mounting points.I use it on Lake Erie in the Cleveland area so it has seen its share of rough chop and plenty of 40'+boat wakes.
Old     (moto817)      Join Date: Jan 2011       08-30-2011, 6:09 PM Reply   
Yes last year Malibu was #1 and MB was #2 for sales in CA So if that means anything to ya =-)
Old    Jason Buffalow (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-30-2011, 7:16 PM Reply   
One of the great things that always impresses me with MB, is that you can go down to the factory shake hands with Mike and Dustin and Shane and look them in the eye. You can see boats being built every step of the way and join in the experience of your boat being built. You can see that like 90% of the boat is hand made at the factory and it is normal for Mike, Shane or Dustin climbing in the boat doing quality control along the way. Bottom line is they take your boat PERSONALLY. It is not just another boat to them. When you build 250-350 boats a year, you will have almost that many stories from the people that bought them. I am not sure if I have ever heard of an MB client that did not greatly enjoy their boat and that experience. This is no knock on the other boats companies as I have said many times, go test drive one and the quality and value will sell our boats.
Old    Vince Dinatale (supratweaked)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-30-2011, 9:03 PM Reply   
To ad to Jason's post. I went down to the MB Factory to talk to Mike about another boat and he could even remember the trailer that my current boat is sitting on. Now that is personal!
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       08-31-2011, 12:02 AM Reply   
Centurion in front of Sanger? You've got to be joking!
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       08-31-2011, 9:14 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake_upppp View Post
Centurion in front of Sanger? You've got to be joking!
It has to do with the added features on the boat, their models offered, perceived quality, etc. Centurion seems to be really improving their boats, coming out with a new model here and there, adding features the upper level manufacturers are adding, etc.. No offense to Sanger, but besides coming out with the V237 a few years ago have they changed a single thing on their boats? They are still low profile(too low profile for the weight people throw in boats now), don't have under floor ballast, don't have snap out carpet, even though I wouldn't want it no LCD screen option, etc.. The V210 hasn't been redesigned other then dash and seating since 1997. And yes, I know it is a proven hull but the fact is, it is just too low profile to be a popular boat anymore. The V215 hasn't changed at really since 04 when it came out. I don't think the V230 has changed hardly at all either. Don't get me wrong, they are still nice boats and the used prices are awesome. If I was buying a used boat I would definately consider a V215. I just think Centurion has passed them in a lot of ways.
Old    Jay Wedsted (jbird)      Join Date: Jun 2011       08-31-2011, 9:15 AM Reply   
Also Wakecraft, in Atwater!
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       08-31-2011, 9:19 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbird View Post
Also Wakecraft, in Atwater!
Dan Dulong, is that you?

I don't think they make boats anymore do they?
Old    Travis Q (motogod77)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-31-2011, 9:54 AM Reply   
I agree with Brett on that one - innovation has a lot to do with progression. I'm a Supreme guy - I have owned three and been happy with everyone of them - now with the v226 in line I wish they would continue to change things up and progress. Like Sanger, the other main three boats - the 232, 208, and 220 have been basically the same boat since 2004 - the 212 was introduced back in late 05' and is a great boat, but they have basically discontinued it. The quality and fit/finish of a Supreme boat has jumped 10 fold since they moved into international inboard - every boat is lake tested by the production manager and since they are building their own boats (instead of somebody else building them) the quality control is much better.

Why not continue and make a v246 as well - talk a tsunami machine! They should also re-do the 208/232 with cab forward design, glass liner, make a cast tower optional, and since internation inboard is where they are being built WHY can't we have "Pure Vert" ballast?
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       08-31-2011, 10:42 AM Reply   
I also forgot that Centurion has switched to PCM which I would consider a nice upgrade over Mercruiser.
Old    Andy Graham (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       08-31-2011, 10:56 AM Reply   
What's wrong with lower profile? I weigh my boat plenty. You just have to know how to drive. I like the look and being "different". Sanger could market that angle.
Old    Brad Walker (humboldt9)      Join Date: Jun 2004       08-31-2011, 11:09 AM Reply   
Brett I couldn't disagree with you more. To each his own I guess...
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       08-31-2011, 11:14 AM Reply   
Not sure where you are at Brett but all I see out here everywhere I go is V210's and 215's. I think the low profile look of Sangers is sexy. These tall sided boats look like battleships on the water. MY opinion of coarse.
Old    Travis Q (motogod77)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-31-2011, 11:26 AM Reply   
I would much rather have a Merc than PCM - and the new auto launch cruise control is by far the best speed control out there. Plus since it all Merc is covered with a three year warranty!
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       08-31-2011, 11:41 AM Reply   
I am not saying I dislike like the lower profile although I would want a safe boat that can handle the weight if I was buying a new boat. Don't get your panties in a bunch guys. I like Sangers, I really do but how many boats are they selling these days? My guess is almost nill. All the boats you see are pre 2008. How many new V210's are you seeing out there? How many new V215's? I know there are lots of 04-07's of them but not many new boats. There boats are just outdated. I actually like that they dont' have LCD screens but it isn't keeping up with the other manufacturers. I would be interested in how much their current model boats are selling for. They shouldn't have any R and D expense since they haven't come out with anything new in years, they have no marketing expense either. A V215 shouldn't sell for a penny over 50k with PP, heater, tower, triple ballast, trim tab, custom cover, bimini, tandem trailer, SS package and a few other things. A v210 shouldn't sell for a penny over 40k completely 100% loaded. The other thing that hurts them is you have to compare their boats to samller boats of most brands. There is no boat on the market as small as teh V210 anymore, the V215 is smaller then most boats 20-21 boats and so on. If they want to stay in business they either have to keep their price really low compared to other boats or constantly evolve their product to warrant extra costs and keep up with others.

Last edited by polarbill; 08-31-2011 at 11:44 AM.
Old     (HighVoltage)      Join Date: Aug 2010       08-31-2011, 11:41 AM Reply   
Epic is manufacturing out of Louisiana but their Corporate is in San Diego still.

They used to have their boats made at Fineline but switched.
Old     (moto817)      Join Date: Jan 2011       08-31-2011, 11:41 AM Reply   
PCM is three year also
Old    Andy Graham (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       08-31-2011, 12:05 PM Reply   
Quote:
I would want a safe boat that can handle the weight if I was buying a new boat.
What the heck does that mean?

Just your opinion, I guess, but mine's completely different. I want a boat that is well built but reasonably economical. I want it to do what it does well, but don't need bling - just good quality. I need a boat that fits in my garage (23' won't). I don't want an LCD screen and could care less about the brand status that this feature might imply. I don't want mega boat payments (actually, I have none.) I'm sure I'm not the only one with these tastes. That's who Sanger markets to.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       08-31-2011, 12:19 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ottog1979 View Post
What the heck does that mean?

Just your opinion, I guess, but mine's completely different. I want a boat that is well built but reasonably economical. I want it to do what it does well, but don't need bling - just good quality. I need a boat that fits in my garage (23' won't). I don't want an LCD screen and could care less about the brand status that this feature might imply. I don't want mega boat payments (actually, I have none.) I'm sure I'm not the only one with these tastes. That's who Sanger markets to.
Maybe I am not conveying my point clearly and/or you are not understanding me but I agree with everything you just said. I just think as a whole Sanger is behind Centurion and MB in a some of the aspects of a boat. Mainly selling boats. I haven't heard of a single person on wakeworld buying a new Sanger. The dealer in the Seattle area can't sell a single boat it doesn't look like although there are other reasons besides just the boat I am sure, It doesn't look like a long time Sanger dealer who really knows the brand in The Team Proshop(half hour north of Portland) is stockign or selling hardly any boats, etc.. Boats like MB and Axis have came in and absolutely taken any market share Sanger has. Then again, maybe the California Dealers are selling tons of boats and I don't know about it because I am in Seattle. I doubt that though. I am for doing what you know, and doing it well but at some point everything becomes out dated. They aren't going to stay in business by building the same exact boats for ever. They also screwed up on some of things they did try and push the envelope with. The whale tale and surf tabs seem to have been huge failures although the surf tabs probably aren't a big deal because if was jsut attaching something on the boat that has been around for decades. They actually had to put some thought into the whale tale and they uber failed at that. Another thing that bugs me is the decade outdated graphics. MB finally figured this out with their newest design and it looks like they have hit a homerun. Simple, clean gelcoat schemes win time after time against flames, checkerboards, slashes, etc...
Old    Travis Q (motogod77)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-31-2011, 12:35 PM Reply   
not the engine warranty -

the speed control with the new Merc Scorpions are all covered under the 3-year Merc warranty - instead of like zero off and perfect pass only having a one year warranty was my point with that.
Old     (moto817)      Join Date: Jan 2011       08-31-2011, 1:26 PM Reply   
Right on Motogod , I read it wrong
Old    Paul (paublo)      Join Date: Jul 2002       08-31-2011, 2:13 PM Reply   
Motogod
I am not anti Merc, but unless things have changed in the past couple of years, their reputation regarding warranty work was less than stellar. Tige dropped them for mostly that reason and when Marine Power stumbled, they went to PCM. In doesn't matter how long the warranty is if they ignore or deny the claim.

I can also speak from experience from being our houseboat manager. We put in 2 new engines and the crank failed in the first year on one. We had to pay to ship it to them, wait 5 months, then only get $1200 towards the new engine we had to buy to keep us going. We had to pay for removal and replacement and to tear down and reinstall all of the other stuff on a new short block we had to buy. Talk to people in the business and they will tell you that Merc is the least customer friendly.
Old    Travis Q (motogod77)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-31-2011, 3:48 PM Reply   
Paul - I'm in the industry and have been for 12 years - the store has been with Merc now for over 20 years and my experience is just the opposite. Mercury has always been great covering any warranty - whether I/O / Outboard / Inboard.

With that being said I honestly don't beleive that one engine is better than the next - they're all just small block chevys (for the most part - some big blocks out there) but I do like the fact that I can get pretty much anything from Merc in one day and that the engine warranty covers everything from the gauges back to the engine, etc - including a lot of things that are only covered by a one year warranty with the others - depth gauges, speed control, gps, etc since they are all part of Mercs newer engine packages.

The boat builders switch from one engine to the next all for the same reason - bottom dollar. Whether they are reducing the cost of the boat and passing it on to the dealer, or reducing their true cost and raising their bottom line. This was the case when Tige switched almost 10 years ago and again the same when Centurion switched a year ago - I'm all for it - as long as the boat buyer is getting a lower price - or more power so the same money.
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-31-2011, 7:13 PM Reply   
Yeah but Sanger has a forum now so they have really caught up. To the 2000's.....
Old    Jay Wedsted (jbird)      Join Date: Jun 2011       08-31-2011, 7:44 PM Reply   
Caught up to what? Sanger has been building boats for how long? For price, quality, and durability, I rate them at the top!
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-31-2011, 7:45 PM Reply   
Since 1954, it says so on my back seat. I rate them top too.
Old    JR Smith (wakintime)      Join Date: Jul 2011       08-31-2011, 8:45 PM Reply   
Sanger has always made a great boat. I love everything about them. I' have had a 210 and 215. Top notch made boats with a great wake. They have been around for years and will continue to be. Just my 2 cents.
Old    Mark (Giddyup)      Join Date: Aug 2011       08-31-2011, 9:19 PM Reply   
What happened to Calabria. I thought they made a good boat. I read several reviews in 09 that listed the fit and finish as excellent. Are they still producing boats?
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       09-01-2011, 12:20 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakintime View Post
I' have had a 210 and 215. T
How do you compare the two, any regrets on moving to the 215? Sorry I tried to PM but it never works for me....
Old    Jarod Craig (wake26)      Join Date: Mar 2009       09-01-2011, 7:25 AM Reply   
Calabria is still around I talked to Bob Jensen just the other day. They have only made a couple of boats this year. For some reason they are not trying to push there boats at all. and from the sounds of it they don't have any plans to in the future. It's a shame I think they make a great boat. I think that it would do them good to freshen up there line of boats and start getting there name out there again.
Old    JR Smith (wakintime)      Join Date: Jul 2011       09-01-2011, 8:59 PM Reply   
Darren,
There was no regret going from the 210 to the 215. I have always been a big Sanger fan. I loved the wake on my 210! Needed more room and got a 215. I loved the wake on that as well. People think they are low profile and they are but I felt as safe in those boats as any. They have the best gelcoat in the industry imo . I had the triple ballast in the 215 and loved it. I traded in my malibu VLX for the 215 and had no regrets. Ithink Sanger is very underrated. Sure loved that 215 but had to sell it in 2009 because of layoff. If I ever find a Sanger dealer near by I would not hesitate to buy any of their boats.
Old    Detox (bass10after)      Join Date: Feb 2010       09-02-2011, 11:33 AM Reply   
I like calabria too. I really would like to see what the inside of a true 23' pro v boat would look like. Ive talked to owners who don't know that the pro v is a 23'6" boat including 30" platform aka a 21' boat in disguise as a 23 footer. the pro v has a big interior, but a 23' pro v would be pretty awesome!
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       09-02-2011, 11:53 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass10after View Post
I like calabria too. I really would like to see what the inside of a true 23' pro v boat would look like. Ive talked to owners who don't know that the pro v is a 23'6" boat including 30" platform aka a 21' boat in disguise as a 23 footer. the pro v has a big interior, but a 23' pro v would be pretty awesome!
I agree. For a 21.5' boat it has the roomiest interior in the business. It is like a living room. A true 23' boat desinged like that would be crazy. I would love to see a 23' version with a little more space in the bow and increasing the freeboard 6" to a foot. If they made them a foot and a half longer, move the floor up 3-6" and make the seat bases 6" taller it would feel like a much deeper boat and be more comfortable. They would also be able to fit 1500-2000 in ballast under the floor. Lastly, even though I like the looks of the tower they use it is way too low. They need to redesign it to be about a foot taller.
Old    Dbdan (dbdan)      Join Date: Jun 2009       09-03-2011, 8:31 AM Reply   
I stopped by Calabria yesterday to talk to Bob about my bimini that I've been waiting for...in addition to the few Supremes that were in various stages, they actually had a couple new Calabrias being built. There was a ProV II that looked like it was getting close to being done. So they're still hanging on...
Old    Detox (bass10after)      Join Date: Feb 2010       09-03-2011, 10:02 AM Reply   
Thats good news.. I'm sure had the world not collapsed we probably would have seen some upgrades to that old mold by now. Im curious if they took the leap of faith and actually did make a 23' with the improvements yates mentioned if they could get a sliver of the market. If you can pass a 21 footer off as a 23' and people that own them don't even know it, maybe they can build a 23 and say its 25' with swim platform lol Hopefully they can hang in there, a 23' boat seems to be a necessity in the line up these days and i'm sure the interior would be huge.

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