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Old    Slfxm (slfxm)      Join Date: Jul 2006       08-18-2011, 7:08 PM Reply   
I'm looking at getting a newer boat. I'm very impressed with the MB's and I really like the pure-vert ballast system. However, I'm surprised they're not NMMA certified. NMMA is a non-profit organization and their fees for certification are listed on nmma.org and seem very reasonable.

Anyone have any idea why MB boats aren't certified? I'm also considering Moombas and older Nautiques, Malibus and Mastercrafts. All of those boats are certified.

MB owner's--what do you think? How reliable have your boats been? Have you had any significant issues?
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-18-2011, 7:54 PM Reply   
I don't know what NMMA even is. Does it really matter?

Here is what I do know: Mike Brendell has been building boats for 30+ years. I'm on my second MB boat and the quality has been great. In my research/opinion there is no better boat for the money.
Old    A-dub (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-18-2011, 8:12 PM Reply   
I looked up NMMA. What would be the point in a company joining/not joining having anything to do with the purchasing decision. It's a trade organization. Waste of money for most of the companies you listed, other than going international.
Old    Len (lenmann)      Join Date: Mar 2005       08-18-2011, 8:19 PM Reply   
A good example of MB keeping operating costs low and passing the value on to customers.
Old    Bu Coo (brett564)      Join Date: Jul 2006       08-18-2011, 8:56 PM Reply   
+1 A-dub

Who cares...
Old    Grant (grkero)      Join Date: Dec 2010       08-18-2011, 9:27 PM Reply   
Len said it best.
Old    Baitkiller (baitkiller)      Join Date: Jan 2010       08-19-2011, 4:55 AM Reply   
I could care less about NMMA and i an in the business of inspecting boats. Do you know if they are built to ABYC standards? That is a rating worth it's effort and something of importance in my view.
Old    Shawn B (ShawnB)      Join Date: Oct 2010       08-19-2011, 5:11 AM Reply   
Certification looks great on a marketing brochure and that's about it.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       08-19-2011, 5:16 AM Reply   
Nah, Grant, LON said it best "I don't want no freakin boat wit no crappa and one engine, even if it's NMMA certified yo!"
Old    J D (jeff_mn)      Join Date: Jul 2009       08-19-2011, 6:19 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by lenmann View Post
A good example of MB keeping operating costs low and passing the value on to customers.
bingo
Old    Dave (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       08-19-2011, 9:26 AM Reply   
That's like not dealing with a company because they are not part of the better business bereau. The better business bereau is a farse. You pay to be part of it...doesn't mean your a better company then others.
Old    Hate2party (slipknot)      Join Date: Aug 2001       08-19-2011, 10:37 AM Reply   
if that is your questions regarding MB Boats than maybe you should not be an owner of one
Old    Eric Silva (getssum)      Join Date: Jul 2005       08-19-2011, 1:35 PM Reply   
NMMA gets you a worthless placard on the inside of your boat. That's it. Whoooopeeee!

Seriously, if you think NMMA is worth something, and wouldn't buy a boat because someone didn't certify it FOR A FEE, then wouldn't you think that there would be a LOT of complaints about the boats "breaking/failing/etc" on the forums?

It's my experience that people who are pissed off because of broken boats are MUCH more vocal than those that are happy!

MB Builds a solid boat and has been doing so for years. And now they have less flames! :-)
Old    Slfxm (slfxm)      Join Date: Jul 2006       08-19-2011, 1:38 PM Reply   
Not working in the boating industry, it's difficult for me to say how effective NMMA certification is. According to the NMMA site, certified boats must meet certain safety and manufacturing guidelines to be certified. Many of these are ABYC standards. Here is a link to the pdf that shows which ABYC standards must be met to be NMMA certified.

The costs for certification are here and seem pretty minimal but they are hourly rates and I have no idea how much time is involved in an inspection.

I work in an industry where there are numerous certifications and I understand some of them are virtually meaningless. Some of them, however, are useful.

As a consumer I want to make sure I get a boat that's well-made and safe. I always inspect boats before I buy them, but it's not possible for me to have the same experience and knowledge as someone who has worked in the industry for numerous years.

I like MB sports boats' style and features. I was hoping someone with industry experience might elaborate on NMMA certification and / or why MB sports might not be certified.

I suppose it's possible that MB is just trying to cut operating costs but the prices on the website certainly don't appear to be cost prohibitive.
Old    A-dub (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-19-2011, 1:41 PM Reply   
They're cost prohibitive and a waste of time if 99% of the purchasers didn't care, let alone know, what the NMMA is.
Old    Dave (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       08-19-2011, 3:54 PM Reply   
I have a 2000 MB B-52 DD. I have put 400 hrs on it in 5 years I have owned it. My boat has never been in a shop. I do all the fluid changes and winterizing myself. I have changed out the spark plugs, replaced the cap and had my alternator worked on. Besides that I have never had an issue with the boats mechanical side of things. I have fixed /replaced some other minor things on the boat that I would say would be normal for any boat that is 11 years old otherwise. Even though the closeset MB dealer is south of the boarder in Seattle I would love to purchase a 23TWB one day over my local dealers.
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       08-20-2011, 5:09 AM Reply   
Is MB the only boat not certified? I have hear nothing but good things about MB but I have never seen one.
Not having this certification would raise a red flag to investigate further but it would not necessarily stop a sale. If this certification is the industry standard and the other brands all have it I wonder why MB would choose to not certify.
Old    Tallredrider (talltigeguy)      Join Date: Sep 2003       08-21-2011, 4:34 PM Reply   
I would like to hear from MB on this. IF they are not up to standards of the industry for safety, then I want to know about it. Do they vent the gas tank properly, is the vinyl extremely flammable, etc?

I want a decent explanation of if they could not comply, or why they chose not to do it.

Although organizations like these are prone to making up rules to justify their own existence, most of the things that they check seem pretty legitimate.
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       08-21-2011, 4:50 PM Reply   
Someone email MB and ask them! then let us all know
Old    Mattt (motorcitymatt)      Join Date: Feb 2007       08-21-2011, 4:56 PM Reply   
Maybe MB should do their own certification and see if the rest of the manufacturers can live up to their standards?????
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-21-2011, 5:11 PM Reply   
Quote:
I want a decent explanation
If you want it so bad, call them up and ask them.
Old    Dan (hco)      Join Date: Jun 2006       08-21-2011, 8:19 PM Reply   
NMMA certification and safety standards are what make other brands sacrifice wakeboarding characteristics and add bull**** to a boat just so they have to pay and pass the costs onto you.

There is a reason why MC and Nautique only have 500-1000 lbs. stock in their boats, NMMA certification prevents them from having a ridiculous amount of stock ballast because of safety standards.

Also, on MC, Nautique, Malibu, you need handles at certain points of entry/near ladders, which is why on NMMA boats you sometimes see random handles near the transom. It's not their for aesthetics and you have probably never used them, it's just another instance of a safety standard.
Old    A-dub (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-21-2011, 8:30 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by talltigeguy View Post
I would like to hear from MB on this. IF they are not up to standards of the industry for safety, then I want to know about it. Do they vent the gas tank properly, is the vinyl extremely flammable, etc?

I want a decent explanation of if they could not comply, or why they chose not to do it.

Although organizations like these are prone to making up rules to justify their own existence, most of the things that they check seem pretty legitimate.
Do you have an X45? If so, I think you should concern yourself more with MC and their standards.......
Old    Len (lenmann)      Join Date: Mar 2005       08-21-2011, 9:06 PM Reply   
How'd that NMMA certification and stringent safety standards help MC in their latest product liability litigation?
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-21-2011, 11:25 PM Reply   
I wonder if this thread is more about MB's current/huge momentum.
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-22-2011, 12:21 AM Reply   
Sanger doesn't have NMMA cert either. Means you can't get an over weight ticket, bonus!
Old    Ian Brown (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       08-22-2011, 6:32 AM Reply   
agree GD, let's try to poke some holes shall we? Go get in an MB, it will not disappoint.
Old    puckhead (jcollinge)      Join Date: Apr 2004       08-22-2011, 6:46 AM Reply   
You'll care about the NNMA if and when the local municipal gov't wants to limit your freedoms on the waterways. Issues such as wake enhancement device limits and so on. They have a presence in lobbying for your rights at the national level. Additionally, they help local groups fight off bad legislation proposals.
Old    Trent (MBfoo)      Join Date: Jun 2011       08-22-2011, 8:43 AM Reply   
I can't stand Danger Rangers...
Old    puckhead (jcollinge)      Join Date: Apr 2004       08-22-2011, 9:16 AM Reply   
They were more than willing to help us here in Austin last fall. It's a real issue here in Centex. Consider yourself lucky numb nuts...
Old    Sean (slax303)      Join Date: Oct 2005       08-22-2011, 9:18 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcollinge View Post
You'll care about the NNMA if and when the local municipal gov't wants to limit your freedoms on the waterways. Issues such as wake enhancement device limits and so on. They have a presence in lobbying for your rights at the national level. Additionally, they help local groups fight off bad legislation proposals.
If thats the case, they sure didn't help much in Portland
Old    Jason Buffalow (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-22-2011, 9:36 AM Reply   
On my 6th MB (as a team "rider/photographer") and can tell you hands down the 2012 23' TWB FAR exceeds all of the previous boats. The finish work is amazing, the wake is fantastic and finally a surf wake that my big butt can ride on without a handle and actually do some tricks. I don't know about NNMA, but just check this forum and you will see a large amount of MB boat owners that are crazy happy. We at MB don't care at what the other boat guys are doing so you will not hear us bashing other boats or tell you that we are superior. Most people that get in my boat are blown away with everything in the boat. That speaks way louder than me telling you why the other boat companies aren't as good. Go test drive them all and we believe are product and value will stand for itself.
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-22-2011, 9:45 AM Reply   
Jason, that what I did and I was blown away. The wake, function, style and build quality are top notch. And, the value/price is almost unbelievable.
Old    SS (illini88)      Join Date: Oct 2007       08-22-2011, 12:00 PM Reply   
I'm not sure what all the NMMA focuses on, but I'd assume a great deal is safety and quality manufacturing processes. For the most part, as a group, wakeboarders (i include myself in this) are not big into following all safety suggestions. Ie., we load our boats to the max, put all weight to one side to make it lean like crazy for surfing, etc. As such, the NMMA safety piece I personally wouldn't be overly worried about. As for quality processes, MB is a relatively small shop that does not appear to be interested in maximizing volume. As such, their boats (the 6-7 I've been around) seem, to me, to be well built and well thought out. I don't think the lack of certification would make me think twice about buying one.
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       08-22-2011, 3:42 PM Reply   
Jayson
It sounds like you are closely affiliated with MB can you find out why they are not certified?
Is it built to the required standards but MB chooses to not bother with the NMMA?
If it wont pass where is the deficiency. I have heard a lot of good things about MB I like the PCM drive trains. Unforchantly I have never seen one on the water or show so I cant comment about quality.
Old    A-dub (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-22-2011, 9:22 PM Reply   
It seems the likely main answer has already been hinted to. There is no reason to dig any deeper, and this can only stir stuff up. Epic isn't NMMA either. They have the most on board, factory ballast on the market. Deduce what you want from that.
Old    Tallredrider (talltigeguy)      Join Date: Sep 2003       08-22-2011, 9:43 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by behindtheboat View Post
Do you have an X45? If so, I think you should concern yourself more with MC and their standards.......
That doesn't make any sense. I can concern myself with whatever boat I want to. The simple question I ask is what does and NMMA certified boat like MC have that MB does not have?

FWIW, I noticed just today that MC wrote in their appeal of the 30 million dollar, 12 people in the bow, lawsuit that their boats are safe and are certified by this and that, including the NMMA.

I think the thread is not considering the things that are looked at by the NMMA. They look at the wiring, the gas venting etc, which are some things we should actually care about. Is everything properly fused? I suspect that NMMA requires a boat to have a blower...I am sure MB boats have a blower, but what don't they have?

I can see this as a negative sales tactic coming back to haunt MB. Can't any of you hear the Centurion dealer pointing out that MB is not certified to the potential buyer?
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-23-2011, 12:44 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by talltigeguy View Post
I can concern myself with whatever boat I want to. The simple question I ask is what does and NMMA certified boat like MC have that MB does not have?
Easy... higher price, uglier tower, and less standard features.


Quote:
Originally Posted by talltigeguy View Post
I think the thread is not considering the things that are looked at by the NMMA. They look at the wiring, the gas venting etc, which are some things we should actually care about. Is everything properly fused? I suspect that NMMA requires a boat to have a blower...I am sure MB boats have a blower, but what don't they have?
You are joking, right?

Here is the thing this thread is not considering... the NMMA is not a gov't regulatory body, like the FDA, FTC, or the NHTSA. It is a freeking trade organization!! They have zero jurisdiction over MB Sports or any other boat manufacturer. What they say about building boats means nothing. Their suggestions on boat building carry no more weight than yours or mine.

NMMA certification is no stronger than the one I may decide to invent tomorrow... the IXFE Boat Builders official stamp of approval! Hahaha! Maybe I'll invent some prestigous boat of the year awards to go with it.

From NMMA's own website....

"Keeping your business healthy is your focus; keeping the recreational boating industry vital is our focus. As the industry’s largest trade association, NMMA leverages the strength of its membership to provide a strong voice of leadership for the industry, representing recreational boating to policymakers, the media and the public.

NMMA membership keeps you connected to issues vital to your business and provides information, resources, programs and services to help grow your business and keep your competitive edge."


Sounds like a sales brochure to me. Here's what's really going on: NMMA begs boat companies to join so that NMMA itself can be vital. They do this by using big words and selling false hope that they will keep the industry vital by representing boaters to policymakers. Yeah, right. Do you really believe that? If so, here's a case study for you.

Here in Oregon the Marine Board is taking away recreational boating rights little by little every year for the past five. There is an official group who's only focus is to fight the local policymakers and save boaters' rights. Guess who is NOT part of this fight...? You guessed it. Go and try to find one mention of NMMA's involvement in the fight. http://saveboatersrights.com/ How many Oregon State Marine Board meetings has NMMA attended?

For you to come on here and act as though MB's lack of membership in this sham is some sort of conspiracy (e.g. alleging blatant safety violations like gas venting and blowers) is both ludicrous and irresponsible.

Finally an analogy for you. Ever heard of the organization "Tread Lightly?" Same as NMMA, they too have a mission statement about promoting responsible outdoor recreation, blah, blah, blah. Guess who is a member... Jeep. Guess who is not... Ford. Isn't that an outrage!! I will never buy another Ford truck again! Or a Land Rover for that matter (also not a member). Clearly Fords and Land Rovers must never been driven off the pavement or gas fumes might spew into the vehicle!!

Give it a rest guys. MB can choose how to run their business and how to design their boats. You can choose to buy them or not based on your own knowledge and a thorough evaluation of the product. They are under no obligation to build to some made up standard. And if you need a made up standard for you to know if a boat is well built, then you are an idiot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by talltigeguy View Post
Can't any of you hear the Centurion dealer pointing out that MB is not certified to the potential buyer?
No, I can't hear that because Centurion is not a member of the NMMA either. Gasp!! No wonder those boats are always sinking and their owners are breathing gas fumes.
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-23-2011, 1:22 AM Reply   
Quote:
I think the thread is not considering the things that are looked at by the NMMA. They look at the wiring, the gas venting etc, which are some things we should actually care about. Is everything properly fused? I suspect that NMMA requires a boat to have a blower...I am sure MB boats have a blower, but what don't they have?
Totally irresponsible internet dribble.

I am sure the only thing missing is the NMMA sticker and the pumps/hoses/bags/mold/headache associated with far inferior ballast systems.
Old    Nauti 210 (brett33)      Join Date: Apr 2011       08-23-2011, 5:39 AM Reply   
Man, this is a thread i would have expected Cipher to be all over!
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       08-23-2011, 6:03 AM Reply   
Once again like the 100k 210 SANTE this thread is full of opinion and NO facts . I dont see anybody saying MB or any other non NMMA certified boat is substandard. Does ANYBODY know for a fact what the NMMA requires for certification and why some builders choose not to participate ? If you are going to guess ,ridicule or give your opinion dont answer this post. If you know for a fact what the NMMA requires please chime in.
Old    Tallredrider (talltigeguy)      Join Date: Sep 2003       08-23-2011, 7:05 AM Reply   
At about post 14, SLXM posted a link to what NMMA requires. I will post it in longhand so that someone might actually look at it.

http://nmma.net/assets/cabinets/Cabi...ok%20Index.pdf

Notice that NMMA requires you to meet standards set forth by the ABYC. The ABYC is a body that is only interested in boat safety, and is not a trade or lobbying organization like the NMMA is. http://www.abycinc.org/

I have not once said that MB sports is lacking in safety, but it does beg the question as to why you would not want to be certified to prove the construction is sound. It is not the fees, those are minimal. Maybe it simply boils down to the ABYC does not like big ballast systems and any boat with big ballast is not going to qualify. But no one knowledgeable enough in these organizations has piped up to say so.

The NMMA and ABYC might require some ridiculous things...But anyone with knowledge of this has not said a word. Instead people accuse me of internet dribble and don't support themselves with an ounce of fact. Maybe it is the NMMA that required these totally useless grab bars in my X45...



If reasons like that are why MB does not want NMMA certification, then fine, just say so. My local dealer carries Supreme, and that is it. They do not seem to fit my needs. They have toyed with the idea of picking up MB, and if they did, I would probably have one in a heartbeat. I simply ask what is the difference between NMMA certified and not....and everyone gets their panties in a bunch. Rant over.
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       08-23-2011, 7:14 AM Reply   
Does MB and the others have the ABYC certification?
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-23-2011, 8:27 AM Reply   
Tall,

Panties not in a bunch... I actually did look at that .pdf you posted. It's worthless... only one page long. Seems the "standards" that you refer to are nowhere to be found. But I still don't see why it matters. You need jurisdiction to enforce standards. NMMA has none.

I just think this is a silly thread. You are right, none of us know ALL the facts about NMMA. I think those of us who don't know the facts made it abundantly clear that we don't care. We only care about the quality, functionality, and yes safety of our boats. We don't need a mysterious trade organization to prove to us what we already know and can see with our own eyes.

Since you and Mr. Hunter seem to be MB shopping and this thing is hanging you up... you can easily get an answer. Just call the good folks down at MB Sports and ask. Believe it or not, they don't sit around reading WakeWorld all day. But I will tell you what they are likely to do... talk directly to customers and answer questions from those who are considering a boat purchase.

http://mbsports.net/contact.asp
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       08-23-2011, 9:05 AM Reply   
What did say to make you believe I am looking for an MB? As I previously posted I have never even seen one. That being said I would like to know more about the NMMA and why some builders choose not to certify with them. I have sent MB an email as per your suggestion I will post their reply when I get it.
Old    Eric Silva (getssum)      Join Date: Jul 2005       08-23-2011, 10:12 AM Reply   
Wow those grab bars look like a great place to bash an ankle!
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-23-2011, 10:13 AM Reply   
Wow, yes, some idiotic committee must be responsible for those grab bars to the X45! Eck!
Old    Mik (norcalrider)      Join Date: Jun 2002       08-23-2011, 1:06 PM Reply   
And ABYC standards are supplemental to the USCG standards which set forth all the information needed for safe wiring, venting, weighting, ect... NMMA is a trade organization that represents their membership when USCG or other bodies are looking to modify codes, regulations or statutes that affect their membership. This can be anything from employment, workers safety, environmental, and so on. NMMA has a CA lobbyist on retainer for what appears to be >$30K/yr though it looks like the financials of that retainer are down this year from previous years. And that's only one state...

If the boat meets USCG standards it is probably safe, ABYC will make it easier to get insurance (bringing an old houseboat up to these standards to lower my insuarnce), and NMMA helps inform/influence these standards based on best available practices and available technologies.

I'm certain NMMA was there to help in CA when the legislature looked at banning wakesurfing a number of years back. That being said it isn't any more of a selling point than say a certification from the Better Business Bureau. IMHO

Last edited by norcalrider; 08-23-2011 at 1:11 PM.
Old    Jason Buffalow (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-23-2011, 1:16 PM Reply   
Any press is good press right? Had two Long time Malibu guys on my boat this morning giving me grief about not doing up fat sacks in my 23' TWB. By the end of the day they were asking me about prices/color/folding tower etc. They are just blown away that you could show up, hit two switches and be riding a huge wake in 60 seconds. I have no clue about all the above, I just know the boat kicks arse. The people I take out that have never seen one are always dumbfound that this boat Is not seen all over the delta, but when you only make like 300 a year nationwide, it takes time. There is a reason the factory has a back log of boats and the largest and oldest dealers are now picking up the brand.
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-23-2011, 1:34 PM Reply   
Jason, are you running stock ballast only in your 23'WB?
Also, how does the 23'WB stock wake compare to the 21'WB? Size? Shape?
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-23-2011, 5:02 PM Reply   
For the record, MB Sports is USCG certified. I confirmed that fact this morning. Unlike NMMA, the USCG is in fact a govt agency with real regulations and real authority. MB is in compliance, so everybody can sleep well tonight.

Hunter, if you are not actively shopping MB, why the sudden interest in this particular thread?
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       08-23-2011, 5:45 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhunter View Post
What did say to make you believe I am looking for an MB? As I previously posted I have never even seen one. That being said I would like to know more about the NMMA and why some builders choose not to certify with them. I have sent MB an email as per your suggestion I will post their reply when I get it.
I think this post explains my motive. I hope to see an MB some day they sound nice.
Old    Jason Buffalow (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-24-2011, 7:19 AM Reply   
GD - I know it is crazy, but running stock ballast. Everybody that has ever rode with me knows I load my boats. It is so good by itself I just have not felt the need. I am not saying it is the size of a heavily loaded Xstar, but it is bigger than any other stock boat and a good chunk of loaded boats.

I think the wake is very similar, but seems like the 23' has a longer transition than the 21', but still has that great quick. It does seem to plan a little quickier, which is probably just do to the length. I do not have the wake plate on mine, but it rips out of the water.
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-24-2011, 8:04 AM Reply   
Awesome. That all makes sense. Thanks!
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       08-29-2011, 11:40 AM Reply   
Well.... I did have my first WTF moment with our new MB when I was digging around in the engine compartment on Saturday trying to figure out how and where I'm going to mount a flush-pro. There's no ball valve on the main water inlet?!?! A very odd place to cheap out.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       08-29-2011, 12:17 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawndoggy View Post
Well.... I did have my first WTF moment with our new MB when I was digging around in the engine compartment on Saturday trying to figure out how and where I'm going to mount a flush-pro. There's no ball valve on the main water inlet?!?! A very odd place to cheap out.
Boy I would say so. Isn't it also against coast guard regs to not have a ball valve in all through hull fittings?
Old    Samuel Sosa (unclesam)      Join Date: Nov 2005       08-29-2011, 12:54 PM Reply   
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       08-29-2011, 1:56 PM Reply   
Congrats to Skiers Choice and Supra they are putting out some great looking products its good to see them back what they build.
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       08-29-2011, 1:59 PM Reply   
I sent an email to MB concerning the NMMA certification. I never got a reply .
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       09-05-2011, 5:20 AM Reply   
I still never got a reply from MB concerning the NMMA and why they choose not to participate.

Nautique just received the NMMA CSI award for the sixth time in a row . This award is given after the new owners are surveyed about their experience and satisfaction with their new boat during the first year .

Congratulations to the Nautique,Tige,Supra and Moomba teams for another great year of building great boats and putting custermer service first..

Last edited by mhunter; 09-05-2011 at 5:30 AM.
Old    pip (pip9ball)      Join Date: Sep 2009       09-05-2011, 6:49 AM Reply   
Who gives a crap about NMMA certification? It doesn't mean a damn thing except extra money out of mfgr's pockets.
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       09-05-2011, 7:33 AM Reply   
I would think it doesn't mean a crap to those who dont participate or dont receive any awards. For those who do participate its just another feather in their cap regarding quality and customer service.
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       09-05-2011, 9:26 AM Reply   
Michael, maybe you should change your user name to NMMAGUY to reflect the importance you put on that paid-for certification.
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       09-05-2011, 3:02 PM Reply   
Nautique has also won the JD Powers award 7 years in a row not that that's important to me.
But just saying?
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       09-05-2011, 3:33 PM Reply   
Micheal,

Thanks for finally revealing your true colors. I always suspected your motive was not legit in this thread. You are not interested in MB at all. You just camer here to sling mud. You got your panties so tied up in a wad over the $100K Nautique thread that you had to come here and hate on MB. You can deny it all you want. We all know that's where this started.

Look, I'm sorry your boat costs so much more than MB that has the exact same powerplant. I really do feel sorry for you.

I'll tell you what. You keep your NMMA awards and fancy certifications. They obviously mean a lot to you. Try to forget about the fact that they were all bought and paid for by Correct Craft. If that sh*t makes you feel better about your overpriced boat, great. I, on the other hand, will keep my $30K in savings.

That's right... for $30K less I got thicker vinyl and carpet, better gel coat, twice as much ballast, better looking tower, bigger bimini, Wetsounds, etc. etc.... all with the same engine as your precious Nautique.

And for the record, I already posted MB's response to your hate motivated inquiry... That's right... I called them and they actually took my call. I didn't hide behind my keyboard, like you did. MB said they are not members of the NMMA because they don't have to be. Pure and simple. It is not a required certification. However, they are in full compliance with all US Coast Guard safety specs. If that is not enough for you, then go on hating and throwing you mud. I'm sure it makes you feel good every time you sit in that transformer interior of yours with the 100% verticle seat backs and hideous affliction styled carpet. I bet you just count all the special awards CC has paid the NMMA to give them.

What a troll you are...
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       09-05-2011, 5:12 PM Reply   
WQW so much to respond to?

1-Not interested in MB ? No as I have already stated I HAVE NEVER SEEN ONE I dont know anything about them. As I have also stated every thing I have read about them has been positive Do you think that is hating on MB?

2-Can you show me where I threw mud at MB?

3-The awards received by Nautique and other brands are given by OWNERS surveys conducted by an independent organisation . Of coarse if you dont join the organization you wont be included. Are there any credits, certificates or awards that mean anything to you?

4-Is it really true about the thicker carpet ,vinyl,Ballast, Wetsounds ,Tower etc.etc for 30k less ?Sounds nice you must be proud . Can you post some pics.

5-Is that all you got with your Nautique hating [Read your last paragraph] I dont think I will convince you to buy a Nautique soon. Do you think your ranting makes me seek out an MB ? Do all MB owners have your attitude ?

Bottom line I an a proud Nautique/Supra owner do I think they are the best ? I wouldn't have bought them if I didn't think so. Both have more than lived up to my expectations . You are a proud MB owner I am glad you are happy with it. I have read a lot about MB hopefully they will open a dealer here and I can see if they live up to all the hype? If you think this is bashing MB than so be it.
Old    Bryce (brycejb328)      Join Date: Aug 2009       09-05-2011, 5:20 PM Reply   
has this forum really came to associating peoples attitudes with boat brands?
Old    Tdc_worm C (tdc_worm)      Join Date: Sep 2002       09-05-2011, 5:31 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfe View Post
Micheal,Try to forget about the fact that they were all bought and paid for by Correct Craft. If that sh*t makes you feel better about your overpriced boat, great.
this i can confirm. i know that my local CC dealer offers the equivalent of a gift coin contingent upon how a boat owner completes a survey. if all categories are top rated then the boat owner gets "free" stuff from the dealer via the gift coin. is that practice isolated to CC? i suspect not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfe View Post
I'm sure it makes you feel good every time you sit in that transformer interior of yours with the 100% verticle seat backs and hideous affliction styled carpet.
this i can confirm as false. having had several CCs, there is no seat back that is near 100% vertical. if you would like me to go throw angle finder on one, i will be more than happy to. now, if you are talking about the coaming pads attached the gunnels, they are vertical...much like the arm of a theater seat would be if you had to look over your left or right shoulder to see the screen. the point? my 230 has 6 aft facing seats that have seat backs for watching the action. if you prefer to use your boat as floating party pad rather and look towards the center rather than a tool to ride and look towards the wake, then by way of the transformer you detest, all of the rear facing seating can be removed and stowed or left at home in seconds.

the new CCs give you more options for seating than any other boat, fact, not opinion. are they overpriced? yup. do they have their shortcomings? yep. whatever.....

Last edited by tdc_worm; 09-05-2011 at 5:40 PM.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       09-05-2011, 5:54 PM Reply   
Maybe you guys just don't understand the essence of MB Sports. They keep it simple and stick to basics. Building boats is all they do. They are a low volume custom boat builders who allow their owners to get personally involved in the build process. They don't print fancy brochures, film hi-end DVDs, or participate in optional orgs such as NMMA. They just build boats. That's it. Stop looking for more. It's a different type of business model. Low overhead. If you built 300 boats a year I suspect you'd take a similar approach.

If you want a boat company that shoots fancy DVDs, stockpiles fancy awards, has a stable of PWT team riders on the payrole, and puts needless bling in the boat, MB is not the boat for you. It's that simple.

BTW, I have no issue with the big companies who tame this approach. I quite like Malibu, Mastercraft, and even Nautique. All super nice machines.

What I don't like are trolls who stir up crap and sling mud (no matter how subtle their methods).

I'm not going to post MB pics. I assume if Mr. Hunter was genuinely interested he'd use the search button, seek out the MB forum, or read any one of the several "new MB" threads right here on WakeWorld.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       09-05-2011, 6:05 PM Reply   
Wow this thread just keeps getting better and better .
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       09-05-2011, 11:50 PM Reply   
You know the competition is desperate when they resort to highlighting PAID-FOR certificates to differentiate themselves.
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       09-06-2011, 6:52 AM Reply   
" I'm sure it makes you feel good every time you sit in that transformer interior of yours with the 100% verticle seat backs and hideous affliction styled carpet. I bet you just count all the special awards CC has paid the NMMA to give them."

Here you go with the mudslinging again now its subtle. READ what YOU said above and tell me who is mud slinging . And then you go on say you like Nautique? You still have not shown where I have bashed MB ?
I did a search and saw the pics of your MB although I dont care for pickle fork boats [ all of them no mud thrown at MB] its a sweet looking rig. I can see why you are so proud of it.
I also checked the MB website and your boat lists for 63995. without trailer . It looks to me that a 50k MB is just as false as a 100k Nautique . Can you tell me how much a boat like yours would cost with all the accessories and trailer?
If it is true that I can buy a boat like yours for 50k as you have stated I will travel to Tennessee to check them out.

Last edited by mhunter; 09-06-2011 at 6:55 AM.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       09-06-2011, 8:05 AM Reply   
I never said a Nautique costs $100K. I was just referring to that thread. All I have ever maintained on pricing is that Nautique costs aprox. $30k more than MB.

The MB pricing you are referring to is MSRP. Nobody pays that. Dealers don't even ask for it. Is it possible to get the MSRP of an MB up into the $60's? Yes, but that's like saying it's possible to get he MSRP of a Nautique up to $100K. We all know it's possible. But only a fool claims they actually cost that much.

Street price of a well equipped 2011 MB is about $50K with trailer.

The 2012's are about $55K.


I do like Nautique, just not the interior. I thought I made that clear in the other post (sans mud). But I didn't realize they had so many spiffy awards. That has me reconsidering my position.
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       09-06-2011, 9:50 AM Reply   
I demoed BU/CC/MB for my purchase. I really like the current Nautique wake. It's actually very similar to the MB wake in steepness and size if you pull out the CC tanks and sack it down to give it proper ballast. Like the MB wake, the current SAN wake strikes a perfect ballance between not being rampy (BU) and not being too steep (old SAN). CC == excellent build quality & excellent wake. CC lacks in the interior. They have always had trouble here. Today, their interior is functional and utilitarian.

Here's a side-by-side interior picture of my buddies CC and my MB.
Attached Images
 
Old    Dustin Lacefield (DustyL)      Join Date: Aug 2011       09-06-2011, 12:39 PM Reply   
Just to clear something up that I know about NMMA CSI awards. 41 boat and engine manufactures won the award this year. tige, natique, and supra/moomba were the only wake boat manufactures to win the award. along with everything else, you must also have at least a 90% satisfaction rating among new boat customers. that doesn't mean those three necessarily make a better boat than others, but it does say that over 90% of their customers are happy with what they bought.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       09-06-2011, 3:30 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdc_worm View Post
this i can confirm. i know that my local CC dealer offers the equivalent of a gift coin contingent upon how a boat owner completes a survey. if all categories are top rated then the boat owner gets "free" stuff from the dealer via the gift coin. is that practice isolated to CC? i suspect not.
After buying a new wakeboat, it's not hard to believe that 90% would answer they are satisfied. For most people, getting a new wakeboat (or upgrading to a new one) is the fulfillment of a dream. New toys always make us happy.

No matter... the surveys are largely rigged, as was stated above. Car dealerships do the same thing. "Mr. Smith, you are going to get a survey in the mail, and we want to make sure that you mark every single question with 5 stars. Is there anything else we can do today to make sure you had a 5 star experience (hint, hint, hint)?"

Next thing you guys are going to tell me is that you believe the boat reviews in the magazines (also bought and paid for by the manufacturers).

Use your own eyes, do your own demos, and read reviews from real boaters. That's why places like WakeWorld exist. Yeah, it can be harsh sometimes (e.g. I was kind of an a$$ yesterday), but it's 100x more valuable than all the fluff you get from mags, and yes... from the NMMA.
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       09-06-2011, 4:36 PM Reply   
Check the first post that Slfxm wrote . He was concerned about buying a MB because they were not NMMA certified. Although you dont care about this so far the only answer he has been given is ["BECAUSE THEY DONT HAVE TO"] I dont know if it satisfied his concerns. Its clear that at least 1 buyer does care. Maybe MB and the others should rethink their position. A doctor doesn't have to belong to the AMA. A mechanic doesn't have to be ASE certified. A real estate agent doesn't have to join NAR. And no a boat builder doesn't have to join the NMMA . All of these organizations are promoting higher standards in their industry are you bad if you dont precipitate not necessarily but for those who do it shows professionalism and gives reassurance to the public of high standards and quality.

DBC.
This tread has spiked my interest in MB and for the record not joining NMMA alone would NOT stop me from buying one.
The two low priced examples you gave dont list options ,trailer ,shipping ,dealer prep and tax.
Are you saying that you bought your beautiful F21 with all the options , accessories,custom trailer dealer prep and tax for 50k ?
Old     (Shorpy)      Join Date: Aug 2011       09-06-2011, 7:30 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhunter View Post
And no a boat builder doesn't have to join the NMMA . All of these organizations are promoting higher standards in their industry are you bad if you dont precipitate not necessarily but for those who do it shows professionalism and gives reassurance to the public of high standards and quality.
Quoted for naivete/hilarity.

Thanks for that. Great stuff!
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       09-07-2011, 5:22 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shorpy View Post
Quoted for naivete/hilarity.

Thanks for that. Great stuff!
Ignorance is bliss.
Old    Ian Brown (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       09-07-2011, 6:52 AM Reply   
let's just let this thread die.

1. MB is not NMMA certified - some people care, some don't
2. Correct Craft makes great boats
3. MB makes great boats.
4. Different boats have different prices.

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