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Old    Miguel (migs)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-16-2011, 4:29 PM Reply   
"I will say this about the nautiques I owned, they were very very well put together. On my 230's, every bolt, nut and screw was tight. Every seam matched perfectly. There were no loose threads, mislaid pieces of carpet, or dangling wires. All of the finish pieces fit well together. The glovebox lid is super beefy - much nicer than what is in my 2011 Axis. The boat doesn't squeek, rattle or shake. You can tell when you are in a nautique that, when it was built, the guys at the factory took their time and knew what they were doing. "

My thoughts EXACTLY.
Old    Brad Walker (humboldt9)      Join Date: Jun 2004       08-16-2011, 4:34 PM Reply   
What makes you think the switches will brake? Seems to me like it would be lot easier to change out a fuse or a switch than a touch screen.
Old    Andrew Moreton (andrew_moreton)      Join Date: Feb 2003       08-16-2011, 5:06 PM Reply   
Any photos of the non-Team Edition's analog gauges?
Old    Aaron (aarond0083)      Join Date: Apr 2007       08-16-2011, 5:21 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew_moreton View Post
Any photos of the non-Team Edition's analog gauges?
It will look very close to the dash on my 2009, which is a great dash in it's own right if you want analog gauges. Curious to see if you can't get keyless with standard package. If so, I would assume the old style keypad would be used.

Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       08-16-2011, 5:22 PM Reply   
Now that's the type of dash I like. Computer screens are nice supplements, but don't want them as my only option
Old    Andrew Moreton (andrew_moreton)      Join Date: Feb 2003       08-16-2011, 5:45 PM Reply   
Yep, that's what a dash should look like!
Old    Mark Manzo (tazz3069)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-16-2011, 5:53 PM Reply   
That looks a million times better.
Old    Aaron (aarond0083)      Join Date: Apr 2007       08-16-2011, 7:33 PM Reply   
Glad you guys like it, it's for sale if you really really really like it. haha
Old    Nick Heckerson (kstateskier)      Join Date: May 2002       08-16-2011, 8:40 PM Reply   
Didn't Nautique has some major issues with their first digital guages back in the early 2000s? I'm sure some of you had them on your 210s. From what I remember, most of them had to be replaced. I'm not saying the same thing will happen here, but for those with blind trust that Nautique never makes a mistake, I have to laugh.
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-16-2011, 9:50 PM Reply   
Yes, the CC edash of the early 2000s was a huge blunder. But, those were seperate electronic guages vs a single multi-function display.
Old    Nick Heckerson (kstateskier)      Join Date: May 2002       08-16-2011, 10:25 PM Reply   
GD, I agree, but someone above made it sound like CC would never take anything to market that may fail.
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-16-2011, 10:35 PM Reply   
To CC is about wake quality and build quality. Above the water they have a history of making very strage decisions.
Old    Tdc_worm C (tdc_worm)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-16-2011, 10:44 PM Reply   
the more i think about it, the more i realize how useless a speedo is in our boats. i use PP exclusively when towing, which is about 95% of my boat's operational life. when your speed is set to the nearest 10th of a mph, then that obsoletes a gauge that doesnt have the same accuracy

the other 5% of the time, i use PCMs max sustained cruising rpm of 4k rpm, the conditions, and my general mood to set my speed and almost always forget that i have speedo...

i am okay w/ idiot warning and diagnostic lights and alarms....cars have been using them with success for over a decade. for fuel, voltage, oil pressure, and engine temp, let the computer take my stress away.

ballast gauges, in my opinion, are a waste of space and cash. does anyone not run their ballast completely full or completely empty? i have mine piggy back with sacks, so the ballast gauges just serve to let m know that i need to get up to check my sacks to how full they are.

so that leaves the tach, which i previously said i used on a regular basis...that is the one remaing gauge that i would love to keep.

as for being an MFD...it will continue to evolve and be refined for user friendliness. it already appears to be the standard and is likely here to stay.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-17-2011, 12:16 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by migs View Post
Have you seen it in person? If you did, i doubt youd think that. Looks much better IMO than a piece of tin and a plastic latch.
No, I haven't. At least not inmany years. How could I? The dealer here in Portland went belly-up and nobody has opened up a new one. Nautique literally priced themselves out of our market.

Forgive me for thinking the glove box looks like plastic in the picture. It seriously looks just like the plastic lid used on Moombas. I never said it "feels" cheap. I said it "looks" cheap. Since you brought it up... I think the "tin" lid on the MB's "looks" nicer (solid billet door, hidden hinge, and yes... a gas ram).

Look, I don't want to nitpick on something as trivial as a glove box.... it's a minor detail, right? It's just that these are the type of details people like to point out when they try to defend the inflated price point.

I said it in my first post. I think this 210 looks awesome on the outside. I just don't like the screen and the price. That's it. But CC is a business and not a charity. More power to them if they can command high prices despite the same cost structure of the cheaper boats. Their margins must be great!
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       08-17-2011, 5:44 AM Reply   
" More power to them if they can command high prices despite the same cost structure of the cheaper boats. Their margins must be great! "

Do you realy think they use the same materials and build procedures as the cheaper brands?

With that thinking Cobalt is the same as Bay liner except for price.
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-17-2011, 9:25 AM Reply   
I want to see engine TEMP and OIL pressure as a real time analog expression. I check them regularly as we head out because this is when they would likely show issues. I also want to see SPEED to know where I am at when speed control is off (e.g. blasting down the river or pulling the kids in a tube). Next, a TACH is somewhat desired to see the state of the engine. Those 4 guages I would not want to give up.
Old    Brett B. (Brett_B)      Join Date: Sep 2010       08-17-2011, 9:32 AM Reply   
I think that Malibu really did it right with their dashboard. It's a good combination of analog gauges for getting info at a quick glance and screens for the ballast, speed settings, etc. All without looking too busy with random switches/buttons everywhere.

Still don't like the new steering wheel though, but that's easy enough to change...

Old    CORY MITCHELL (stang_killa_ss)      Join Date: Jan 2010       08-17-2011, 9:56 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfe View Post

Forgive me for thinking the glove box looks like plastic in the picture. It seriously looks just like the plastic lid used on Moombas. I never said it "feels" cheap. I said it "looks" cheap. Since you brought it up... I think the "tin" lid on the MB's "looks" nicer (solid billet door, hidden hinge, and yes... a gas ram).
moomba uses molded fiberglass with color gelcoat just like the x-star and super air nautique. just to clarify
Old    Aaron (aarond0083)      Join Date: Apr 2007       08-17-2011, 11:53 AM Reply   
I'm not going to get in a pissing match over boat brands but the glove box on a Nautique is anything but cheap. It may look cheap to someone in a picture and that's fine.... but it's not plastic, molded fiberglass and gelcoat just like the rest of the boat and has the same type gas spring hinges as the engine and side compartments. Rock solid, super smooth and will not slam shut.
Old    GD (diamonddad)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-17-2011, 12:37 PM Reply   
Question: when pulling a rider, is every desired control available on the default screen?

I certainly would not want the driver having to multi-click down a menu system to understand/adjust the ride while driving.

Safety trumps every other consideration.
Old    Tdc_worm C (tdc_worm)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-17-2011, 12:39 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by diamonddad View Post
I want to see engine TEMP and OIL pressure as a real time analog expression. I check them regularly as we head out because this is when they would likely show issues. I also want to see SPEED to know where I am at when speed control is off (e.g. blasting down the river or pulling the kids in a tube). Next, a TACH is somewhat desired to see the state of the engine. Those 4 guages I would not want to give up.
if you like the way gauges look, i wont argue with you on that...some like blondes, some like brunettes. if you believe their diagnostic capability is superior to that of a an MFD, i would assert that to not be true. i guess i have two points to this:

1) your gauges, although having needles that sweep in an analog motion, are electrically controlled. there is no tube from you temperature sensor to the back of the temp gauge and no speedometer drive cable/gear from your transmission output shaft to your speedo that actually provide a true, mechanically driven signal. electricity is routed from the sensor to a processor in the brain or the gauge itself that tells the needle where to sweep to.

2) given that you, i presume, place a greater priority on monitoring the route in front of you than monitoring each of the diagnostic gauges 100% of the time, i suspect you spend more time looking forward than looking at the gauges. the sensor and the processor spend their entire lives watching their one diagnostic responsibility for you, and set off an alarm to warn you of an issue during those moments that you are watching the waterway ahead of you or checking your aft via the spotters mirror. with my electronically driven gauges on my 2007 CC, there still is a digital read out that often warns me (both auditory and visually) of issues when i am not looking at the gauges.

whatever, not trying to split hairs, i just suspect there are some misconceptions about how analog readouts and diagnostic systems function...
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-17-2011, 11:04 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhunter View Post
Do you realy think they use the same materials and build procedures as the cheaper brands?
Yes, I know they do.
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       08-18-2011, 6:47 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfe View Post
Yes, I know they do.
How do you know they do? Please elaborate.
Old    Adam R (wakecumberland)      Join Date: Oct 2007       08-18-2011, 7:25 AM Reply   
Take a few plant tours Michael.
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       08-18-2011, 7:56 AM Reply   
So your expertise is from plant tours ? Please tell me more.
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       08-18-2011, 8:25 AM Reply   
Quote:
So your expertise is from plant tours ? Please tell me more.
you over paid and are upset now aren't you?....

+1 for the manufacturing processes being pretty similar. I've seen a handful of different companies facilities (Wanted to work for one with my degree - Manufacturing Engineering) but decided the ski/wake boat industry probably isn't the best "recession proof" career path.

... anyways, 90% is the same... the only company I can say is differenent enough to take note is Epic and their hulls.... the only other big variables I see are:
Vinyl weight (oz)
Carpet - snap in/fixed/ none


... I highly doubt you're going to find a different grade of bolt on a MC compared to a Moomba, or some space-age fiberglass curing method.

I just bought a Lexus... I could just as easily say, I just bought an expensive Toyota, because thats what it is.... different shell and interior layout, but other than that its a Toyota, I know I paid for the name.... oh well.
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       08-18-2011, 8:32 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidekicknicholas View Post
you over paid and are upset now aren't you?....

+1 for the manufacturing processes being pretty similar. I've seen a handful of different companies facilities (Wanted to work for one with my degree - Manufacturing Engineering) but decided the ski/wake boat industry probably isn't the best "recession proof" career path.

... anyways, 90% is the same... the only company I can say is differenent enough to take note is Epic and their hulls.... the only other big variables I see are:
Vinyl weight (oz)
Carpet - snap in/fixed/ none


... I highly doubt you're going to find a different grade of bolt on a MC compared to a Moomba, or some space-age fiberglass curing method.

I just bought a Lexus... I could just as easily say, I just bought an expensive Toyota, because thats what it is.... different shell and interior layout, but other than that its a Toyota, I know I paid for the name.... oh well.
How would you compare your Lexus to say a KIA. They are both built using similar methods and similar materials? So does Lexus just jack up the price to make more profit?
Old    Ian Brown (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       08-18-2011, 8:56 AM Reply   
Just out of curiosity, Michael can you tell us how the more expensive boat brands do things better than the rest of the bunch? What is your point of reference?
Old    Sean (05sante)      Join Date: Jun 2011       08-18-2011, 8:56 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidekicknicholas View Post
you over paid and are upset now aren't you?....

+1 for the manufacturing processes being pretty similar. I've seen a handful of different companies facilities (Wanted to work for one with my degree - Manufacturing Engineering) but decided the ski/wake boat industry probably isn't the best "recession proof" career path.

... anyways, 90% is the same... the only company I can say is differenent enough to take note is Epic and their hulls.... the only other big variables I see are:
Vinyl weight (oz)
Carpet - snap in/fixed/ none


... I highly doubt you're going to find a different grade of bolt on a MC compared to a Moomba, or some space-age fiberglass curing method.

I just bought a Lexus... I could just as easily say, I just bought an expensive Toyota, because thats what it is.... different shell and interior layout, but other than that its a Toyota, I know I paid for the name.... oh well.

No you didn't. You being an mfg engineer I would expect you to understand product engineering more. Better suspension components, sound insulation, bushings, engine, interior materials, etc. Drive your Lexus then drive its Toyota counterpart and you should notice the difference immediately.

Just because the manufacturing process is the same doesn't mean the materials and engineering behind it are the same. Your Lexus has more R&D time behind it ensuring a smoother, quieter ride. The higher grade materials and engineering time cost money.

There are several different grades of fiberglass, several different orientations of weaves, fiber thickness, etc. Measure the hull thickness between say a Bayliner and a Cobalt or just take a ride in both. There is a huge difference, I've been in Bayliners before and it amazed me how much the boat creaked and flexed going over chop compared to a Cobalt. There are also several different grades of resins. There are more expensive resins that are more resistant to water intrusion to help prevent blistering, etc. Higher grade resins are also more UV resistant and will last longer in the sun. These things cost money.

To the average bubba looking at two brand new boats its understandable that he would have a hard time telling where the extra money is going but you should know better. If there truly was no difference between high end and low end cars/boats, then don't you think all manufacturers would go out of business except the cheapest one?
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       08-18-2011, 8:56 AM Reply   
Quote:
They are both built using similar methods and similar materials? So does Lexus just jack up the price to make more profit?
I would say a "high end" Kia and a Lexus are 75% the exact once you get down to the guts level. I doubt my steel is any better, I doubt my glass is any better, I doubt my transmission is any better, I doubt my plastics are any better, I doubt my "wood grain" is any better.

You price increase is coming from what I assume are:
Bigger better engine (boats you pay extra for that too).
Leather over cloth (Boat Vinyl weights vary like I mentioned)
Lexus has a name behind it - a name that says "fancy" .... Kia has a name that ways - uggg (I think their new cars look great - I was strongly looking at the new Optima when I was shopping)
AND HERE is where the big 3 boat companys/Luxury car companys get their money:
EXTRA CRAP YOU WILL NEVER NEED!!!! .... So many things on the car I will never ever ever ever use, but I couldn't get it without them and guess what, I still have to pay for them.

If I had the option to take the shell of the car I bought (loved the look) .... and pick and choose each and every little detail/option only selecting what I wanted, that would be great.... but from a manufacturing you can't allow that to happen - or you "LEXUS IS LINE" that was one nice lean flow is now an ugly mess full of custom crap.

I look at the list of stuff I would never need or want that is "standard" and hate that I have to pay for it.... on a boat here are some examples:
Cover - I don't need one.... always store indoors and/or on a lift. I don't need it
Cleats - live on the lake, have the hoist and nice sand bottom, don't need cleats
stereo - rather do it myself... don't want anything
Ballast - odds are I'll be changing it out anyway
****ty prop - odds are a new one is coming when the ballast does
snap out carpet - don't want any
stainless cupholders everywhere - plastic is fine for me beer
Lights in storage areas - I don't need that
The coolers that come with boats now - no thanks, I have my own
X-stars have a standard tower camera - No thanks

... maybe I am old fashioned, but give me a no frills boat with only the following:
Solid hull
Good reliable engine
Assloads of stock ballast + prop to push it
Nice looking tower
- thats it, anything else I can add myself later.


.... Back to the 2012 Nautique - so glad they haven't gone pickle fork - the boat (minus the bird) looks so classy
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-18-2011, 10:16 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhunter View Post
How would you compare your Lexus to say a KIA. They are both built using similar methods and similar materials? So does Lexus just jack up the price to make more profit?
Will you stop comparing boats to cars? It's not the same and you know it.

Boats are fiberglass tubs filled with vinyl, carpet, glass, and an engine. They are infiitely simpler than a car, which has brakes, suspensions, wheels & tires, 10x more electronics and safety features, climate control, etc. etc. Each car company designs and manufactures their own engines. Boat companies all outsource from one of three or four manufacturers.

Building a boat is not rocket science. How exactly do you think they are so different?

Let's compare Nautique with say... MB, the boat I have. But we could just as easily compair it with Moomba, Axis, Sanger, etc.

You realize they have the same engine and transmission, right? So right off the bat the most important componants are exactly the same, and yet one boat costs almost 2x the other. Hmmm...

That means all that extra cost you think Nautique is paying must be in.... what??? The fiberglass? Does Nautique use more fiberglass? Better fiberglass? They must, right? Wrong. The old fiberglass salesman trick is the biggest lie in the industry. Fiberglass is what makes a boat heavy, right? If Nautique's fiberglass is so thick and so much better, how come the 210 weighs 100 lbs. less than a TWB or F21?

What does that leave? Carpet and vinyl? You might be able to claim thicker carpet and vinyl than some of the price point boats, but not MB who uses 40 oz. carpet and 52 oz. vinyl. What does Nautique use??? It better be leather for the price they charge. But how much do you think thicker vinyl and carpet costs, anyway? A boat has less than 100 sq. ft. of carpet. Even the best carpet only costs a few bucks a sq. ft. So any extra cost paid by Nautique here is marginal. Same can be said for vinyl. But again, since I decided to compare to MB, I submit to you there is no difference.

What about trailers? Is that the difference? Hard to say, but since the trailer industry is riddled with many competitors (Extreme, Ryan, Boatmate, CTW, and others), my guess is they are all very competitive on pricing to the boat manufacturers.

All that leaves is misc. odds and ends... windshield, handles, cupholders, decals (oh wait, MB uses no decals), gas tanks, towers, pumps (oh... there again MB uses no pumps), misc. nuts and bolts. These are all commodity items readily available to any manufacturer through various suppliers.

Finally there is the screen. MB doesn't have a miniature TV in their boats. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that this drives extra cost. But how much??? Enough to make up the $40K difference in price?

One final thought. The Big 3 fans are quick to point out that they make 10x as many boats as the smaller guys. Okay then, why don't they enjoy any economies of scale? If your argument is that Nautique's product costs are high, I have to wonder why? They have 10x the scale of an MB. Which means they should be paying LESS for that same PCM EX343, and LESS for the resin, and LESS to the same windshield supplier, trailer, etc. etc. Even if their vinyl is superior (which it's not) they should get their "superior" vinly for LESS since they are buying it in bulk, right? Same argument applies to their manufacturing process. It should be cheaper with 10x the volume... more automation, JIT arrangments with suppliers, same overhead spread across more boats, etc, etc.

Sorry, your higher cost argument holds no water.

And since you are all hell bent on using a car analogy... yes, I can immediatley tell the difference between my BMW 335i and a Kia. The problem is, I've been in many many Big 3 boats on the water (demos, friends boats, etc.), and I'm sorry, I can't tell the difference between those and my MB. Acceleration, handling, wake, hull strength, etc. Maybe there used to be a good reason to spend 2x on an Nautique. Those days are over, unless you like video screens and vinyl griffins. If so, then spend away.
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       08-18-2011, 10:40 AM Reply   
Quote:
The Big 3 fans are quick to point out that they make 10x as many boats as the smaller guys. Okay then, why don't they enjoy any economies of scale? If your argument is that Nautique's product costs are high, I have to wonder why? They have 10x the scale of an MB. Which means they should be paying LESS for that same PCM EX343, and LESS for the resin, and LESS to the same windshield supplier, trailer, etc. etc.
Amen... take off the names and put five people two have never seen a wakeboard boat in a CC/MC/BU vs. MB/Moomba/Supreme and my guess is that all 5 will say, they're the same.

95% of all boats are the same (or so dang close you might as well call it the same). The fact the big guys are selling/making far more boats should mean they're far cheaper... look at wal-mart, they sell a **** load and can price stuff a tiny tiny bit cheaper than the next "Big Box" store... because of sheer bulk and numbers.

I have a Nautique, I love it... would I ever buy one new - No way in hell.... used and for a deal, sure.
If I HAD to buy a brand new boat my choices before a test drive would be:
MB Tomcat
Moomba XLV
Axis
Supreme 226
.... When I could buy a new boat and truck to pull it for the price of just the boat from one of the Big 3 -- the choice is easy.
Old    Miguel (migs)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-18-2011, 10:42 AM Reply   
If you go sit in a new 210 or 230, you will see the difference. When you drive one, you will feel the difference guaranteed.
The thickness of the vinyl is not the only difference between the 2. Pull your MB next to a Nautique, jump in yours, rub your hands accross your vinyl, then jump in the nautique and do the same. MUCH DIFFERENT. I was able to do this when i purchased mine as my dealer sells Malibus & Nautiques. Even better is if you can see the swatches of the vinyl, the backing of each - you can see the BIG difference.
Check out the latches, the stitching used in Nautiques - MUCH different.
Dont get me wrong, I love MB's, I spend half my time on the water in a V23 and a F21 tomcat, but there is a Difference. When you drive my 210, the only thing that makes any noice is the clasps on bindings hitting the board when we hit waves. Even in the roughest water, you hear nothing. No rattles, no slams, no slaps, nothing, My boards dont even hit each other.
Old    Tdc_worm C (tdc_worm)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-18-2011, 10:59 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by migs View Post
If you go sit in a new 210 or 230, you will see the difference. When you drive one, you will feel the difference guaranteed.
The thickness of the vinyl is not the only difference between the 2. Pull your MB next to a Nautique, jump in yours, rub your hands accross your vinyl, then jump in the nautique and do the same. MUCH DIFFERENT. I was able to do this when i purchased mine as my dealer sells Malibus & Nautiques. Even better is if you can see the swatches of the vinyl, the backing of each - you can see the BIG difference.
Check out the latches, the stitching used in Nautiques - MUCH different.
Dont get me wrong, I love MB's, I spend half my time on the water in a V23 and a F21 tomcat, but there is a Difference. When you drive my 210, the only thing that makes any noice is the clasps on bindings hitting the board when we hit waves. Even in the roughest water, you hear nothing. No rattles, no slams, no slaps, nothing, My boards dont even hit each other.
uses of the word difference (or a variation) --- 7 times
uses of the word superior (or a variation) --- 0 times

of course they are all different, but you have failed to give anything other than opinion to prove superiority. its cool that you like on more than the other because of the "difference", but your claims are unsubstantiated...and this comes from a person that owns a CC....
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       08-18-2011, 11:28 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfe View Post
Will you stop comparing boats to cars? It's not the same and you know it.

Boats are fiberglass tubs filled with vinyl, carpet, glass, and an engine. They are infiitely simpler than a car, which has brakes, suspensions, wheels & tires, 10x more electronics and safety features, climate control, etc. etc. Each car company designs and manufactures their own engines. Boat companies all outsource from one of three or four manufacturers.

Building a boat is not rocket science. How exactly do you think they are so different?

Let's compare Nautique with say... MB, the boat I have. But we could just as easily compair it with Moomba, Axis, Sanger, etc.

You realize they have the same engine and transmission, right? So right off the bat the most important componants are exactly the same, and yet one boat costs almost 2x the other. Hmmm...

That means all that extra cost you think Nautique is paying must be in.... what??? The fiberglass? Does Nautique use more fiberglass? Better fiberglass? They must, right? Wrong. The old fiberglass salesman trick is the biggest lie in the industry. Fiberglass is what makes a boat heavy, right? If Nautique's fiberglass is so thick and so much better, how come the 210 weighs 100 lbs. less than a TWB or F21?

What does that leave? Carpet and vinyl? You might be able to claim thicker carpet and vinyl than some of the price point boats, but not MB who uses 40 oz. carpet and 52 oz. vinyl. What does Nautique use??? It better be leather for the price they charge. But how much do you think thicker vinyl and carpet costs, anyway? A boat has less than 100 sq. ft. of carpet. Even the best carpet only costs a few bucks a sq. ft. So any extra cost paid by Nautique here is marginal. Same can be said for vinyl. But again, since I decided to compare to MB, I submit to you there is no difference.

What about trailers? Is that the difference? Hard to say, but since the trailer industry is riddled with many competitors (Extreme, Ryan, Boatmate, CTW, and others), my guess is they are all very competitive on pricing to the boat manufacturers.

All that leaves is misc. odds and ends... windshield, handles, cupholders, decals (oh wait, MB uses no decals), gas tanks, towers, pumps (oh... there again MB uses no pumps), misc. nuts and bolts. These are all commodity items readily available to any manufacturer through various suppliers.

Finally there is the screen. MB doesn't have a miniature TV in their boats. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that this drives extra cost. But how much??? Enough to make up the $40K difference in price?

One final thought. The Big 3 fans are quick to point out that they make 10x as many boats as the smaller guys. Okay then, why don't they enjoy any economies of scale? If your argument is that Nautique's product costs are high, I have to wonder why? They have 10x the scale of an MB. Which means they should be paying LESS for that same PCM EX343, and LESS for the resin, and LESS to the same windshield supplier, trailer, etc. etc. Even if their vinyl is superior (which it's not) they should get their "superior" vinly for LESS since they are buying it in bulk, right? Same argument applies to their manufacturing process. It should be cheaper with 10x the volume... more automation, JIT arrangments with suppliers, same overhead spread across more boats, etc, etc.

Sorry, your higher cost argument holds no water.

And since you are all hell bent on using a car analogy... yes, I can immediatley tell the difference between my BMW 335i and a Kia. The problem is, I've been in many many Big 3 boats on the water (demos, friends boats, etc.), and I'm sorry, I can't tell the difference between those and my MB. Acceleration, handling, wake, hull strength, etc. Maybe there used to be a good reason to spend 2x on an Nautique. Those days are over, unless you like video screens and vinyl griffins. If so, then spend away.


I like this. It all comes down to the boats are very similar. There might be little things that one brand does better then another or slightly better materials then another but overall it can't be more then a few thousand in difference. Some of the reason that Malibu, Nautique and Mastercraft can charge more is because they put more stupid crap in the boat that doesn't make it any better, just fancier. They can also charge more because they can. I am sure the manufacturer's make higher margins and I know the dealers make higher margins on the big 3. I brought it up in another thread, there is absolutely no way you can say an X15, SAN210, VLX have 30-40 thousand more in materials, features, etc... then a TWB21. ISFE brings up a good point. The big three should have lower material costs because they are buying far more then a small company like MB. I think the problem is they are constantly focused on how to add more value by adding stupid little trinkets in the boats while not looking at how to reduce costs so they can hold their price. I really hope MB and the other less expensive brands screw the big 3 and bring them back to earth.
Old    Sean (05sante)      Join Date: Jun 2011       08-18-2011, 11:35 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfe View Post
That means all that extra cost you think Nautique is paying must be in.... what??? The fiberglass? Does Nautique use more fiberglass? Better fiberglass? They must, right? Wrong. The old fiberglass salesman trick is the biggest lie in the industry. Fiberglass is what makes a boat heavy, right? If Nautique's fiberglass is so thick and so much better, how come the 210 weighs 100 lbs. less than a TWB or F21?
Nautique uses only AME 5000 and 1000 resins in their boats which is touted as being half the weight and more than twice as strong as the traditional polyester resin IIRC. In addition, they offer superior blister resistance. Your argument of other boats weighing more therefore they must be the same quality hull doesn't make sense. You have to look deeper into the quality of the materials used.

A lot of times its what you can't see is what makes the difference between a good boat and a higher quality boat. I'm only saying there is a difference in materials used that warrants a higher price tag. Whether or not these things warrant the price Nautique charges I doubt.

Last edited by 05sante; 08-18-2011 at 11:38 AM.
Old    Miguel (migs)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-18-2011, 11:51 AM Reply   
"of course they are all different, but you have failed to give anything other than opinion to prove superiority. its cool that you like on more than the other because of the "difference", but your claims are unsubstantiated...and this comes from a person that owns a CC.... "

Oh, my bad. Ill make sure to spell it out next time.
Old    Aaron (aarond0083)      Join Date: Apr 2007       08-18-2011, 12:02 PM Reply   
I have no experience with MB as there are none in my area that I know of. The fact that they use PCM makes them okay in my book.

Comparing a Moomba and a Nautique is just foolish and I am not knocking Moomba at all by saying that. Nautiques cost more because of the way they are built. and operate Go use a 21' Moomba for a day and then go use a 210 for a day. If you can't tell the difference then good for you, buy a Moomba and have fun on the lake. I can tell a difference and I choose to spend my money on the boat I want. That's what is great about options b/c every boat isn't for everyone.

Nautique has earned it's reputation over the years by building the highest quality ski/wakeboats on the water (in my opinion of course). Do they charge too much? Sure they do and this is coming from someone who has a 2012 being built as I type this. They charge what the market will pay and are maintaining margins based on volume. I bet if they were building 12-13 boats a day during production instead of 5-6 the prices would be a little lower. Every 210 out there isn't 80K new so I don't know where that is coming from.
Old    Matt (MattieK27)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-18-2011, 1:29 PM Reply   
I think there are two items that need to be seperated in this "arguement."

1. Nautiques are built better

2. Nautiques are worth the price

Now, admittedly I am a Nautique fan, but I will have an educated arguement with anyone that Nautiques are one of the best built tow boats out there. There are areas that just dont get considered, like ergonomics, trim pieces that actually hold up, and details like channels under the back hatches that divert water around and not into the engine compartment. Those are just a few areas. As an engineer, I can tell you some of the materials Nautique uses are superior to other boat bouilders, but not as good as the materials they USED to use. (Resin is one such area)

Which brings me to #2, are they worth the price. In my eyes, they are definately not worth the insane prices. Unfortunately, most of these boats arent. Two years ago, Axis delivered a good pricepoint boat for 39.9. Two years later, good luck finding one for under 50, and thats for the 20' version. They increased the price because they can. If you owned a business, and you would sell the same number of boats whether you priced them at 40k or 50k, what would you do? This might come as a shock to most, but CC, Mastercraft, Malibu, SC, etc are not in business to make boats. They are in business to make money.

Nautique and the other premium builders are chasing the high end market, mainly because regardless of the economy those are the people that always have money. So they will continue to load boats up with every gimmic and gadget to help "justify" that increase. Nautiques price increase this year is 10%. To me, it has gotten past ridiculous.

And for the people that honestly think the screen is a better option, now that is just plain humorous. Cycle through the options trying to find your boats vitals while trying to turn the radio down and adjust PP, and tell me having seperate gauages and controls for each is not the way to go...
Old    Tdc_worm C (tdc_worm)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-18-2011, 1:44 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by migs View Post
"of course they are all different, but you have failed to give anything other than opinion to prove superiority. its cool that you like on more than the other because of the "difference", but your claims are unsubstantiated...and this comes from a person that owns a CC.... "

Oh, my bad. Ill make sure to spell it out next time.

dont get butt hurt. a difference is just that, a difference. blondes are different looking than brunettes, F150s drive different than Silverados, and Ruth's Chris filets taste different than Sullivans. i am not on your back about your opinion.

over the past 7 years, i have owned a Moomba Mobius (@ 400 hours), a Calabria Pro V (@ 450 hours), a CC Super Air 220 (@ 510 hours), and now a CC Super Air 230 (@307 hours). guess which ones were the least maintenance intensive? the Moomba and the Calabria. Guess which two had zero upholstery issues? the Moomba and the Calabria. Guess which two had zero warranty issues? the Moomba and the Calabria. Guess which ones I have had the most amount of fun on? they were all the same.
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       08-18-2011, 5:49 PM Reply   
Most of your questions/arguments have all ready been addressed . I have 2 questions.

1- What is the average cost of a 21' wake boat [Not the list price] ?
Nautique
Master Craft
Malibu
MB
Supra
Moomba
Stanger
Axis
Tige
If I left any out please add.

2- How many boats did each manufacturer build in 2010?
Old    McGavin (Shooter)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-18-2011, 6:10 PM Reply   
Regarding cc resin..cut & paste from another site


REDUCED USE OF AME 5000 RESIN
For more than 17 years, Correct Craft has touted the exclusive use of AME 5000 resin
throughout our boats. Recently we changed production to include AME 1000 for our
bulk resin while continuing to use AME 5000 in the skin coat.
As you know, both resins are extremely similar in composition in that they are both vinyl
ester/DCPD blends. Both provide excellent resistance to blistering, cracking and
crazing. However, these issues are isolated to the first layer of fiberglass. For that
reason, we continue to use AME 5000 in the skin coat because of the superior
elongation characteristics afforded by its higher vinyl ester resin content. However, that
level of protection is unnecessary in other applications and serves to elevate the cost of
the product without providing any additional benefit.
Accordingly, reduction in our use of AME 5000 resin has not led to any degradation of
quality, strength or appearance of our boats.

I'm calling BS on the last sentence.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-18-2011, 6:30 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattieK27 View Post
This might come as a shock to most, but CC, Mastercraft, Malibu, SC, etc are not in business to make boats. They are in business to make money.
Bingo. This is all I was trying to say when I wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfe View Post
I said it in my first post. I think this 210 looks awesome on the outside. I just don't like the screen and the price. That's it. But CC is a business and not a charity. More power to them if they can command high prices despite the same cost structure of the cheaper boats. Their margins must be great!

There is nothing wrong with charging a premium for a well established brand. If the market will bear it, they'd be foolish not to. Especially if their factory is at full production.

Last edited by ixfe; 08-18-2011 at 6:39 PM.
Old    McGavin (Shooter)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-18-2011, 6:42 PM Reply   
Long-term Vs Short-term..CC quality and dealer service has gone down while their prices have gone up. They have started falling behind the other brands in innovation and are cashing in on thier reputation. The devoted educated customers are slowly jumping ship and the followers (rich that want the coolest boat) will follow.

This is not the early 90's where CC is pulling the pro tour and are one of 2 or 3 wakeboat options out there. There is a lot of quality competition for much cheaper.

CC should make as much money as they can. I hope it lasts!
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       08-18-2011, 7:07 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooter View Post
Long-term Vs Short-term..CC quality and dealer service has gone down while their prices have gone up. They have started falling behind the other brands in innovation and are cashing in on thier reputation. The devoted educated customers are slowly jumping ship and the followers (rich that want the coolest boat) will follow.

This is not the early 90's where CC is pulling the pro tour and are one of 2 or 3 wakeboat options out there. There is a lot of quality competition for much cheaper.

CC should make as much money as they can. I hope it lasts!
Have you seen ,driven or ridden a 200 and 200 sport?
What are the quality cheaper brands? How much are they?
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-18-2011, 7:36 PM Reply   
This thread is turning into a can of worms.
Old    Matt (MattieK27)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-18-2011, 7:43 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhunter View Post
Have you seen ,driven or ridden a 200 and 200 sport?
What are the quality cheaper brands? How much are they?
I'm unsure what brands he was refering to, but I can tell you about the 200 Sport.

Nice boat, I really liked it except for the giant rear end. I prefer the way they did the transom on the current 210, 220, and current 230. When I priced a 200v out, after a 15% discount from the dealer I was at 76,000 before tax. Keep in mind the boat was far from loaded, with only the basic color scheme and standard black tower. (Every color tower you see is an $800 option, supposedly Nautique has to strip all the black ones they get and repaint them...)

Don't forget to add 10% for the new model year. I will let everyone form their own opinions on that price, but needless to say I did not pull the trigger...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwb4me View Post
This thread is turning into a can of worms.
Yep, better post up a pic of that blue Tige to settle things down...

Last edited by MattieK27; 08-18-2011 at 7:45 PM.
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       08-18-2011, 7:55 PM Reply   
Finally a price. Looks to be a lot less than 100k. Now what other brand builds a true Ski, wake and surf boat that even comes close to a Nautique 200 sport? If there is one how much does it cost?
Old    Matt (MattieK27)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-18-2011, 8:11 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhunter View Post
Finally a price. Looks to be a lot less than 100k. Now what other brand builds a true Ski, wake and surf boat that even comes close to a Nautique 200 sport? If there is one how much does it cost?
A lot less than 100k? That makes the cost ok? Really? For a 20' crossover? Close to 90k after taxes for a 2012?

Again, I want to clarify I am a huge Nautique fan, and even I can't swallow or justify that price.

Last edited by MattieK27; 08-18-2011 at 8:16 PM.
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-18-2011, 8:15 PM Reply   
Yep, better post up a pic of that blue Tige to settle things down... [/QUOTE]

I don't dare ring that COWBELL again.LOL
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       08-18-2011, 8:48 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattieK27 View Post
A lot less than 100k? That makes the cost ok? Really? For a 20' crossover? Close to 90k after taxes for a 2012?

Again, I want to clarify I am a huge Nautique fan, and even I can't swallow or justify that price.
You must work for the government with your fuzzy adding.
76000
+ 5320.00 7% tax
Sounds more like 81320.00 out the door. Where did you get 90k. No wonder you think they are too high.
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       08-18-2011, 8:52 PM Reply   
What other true crossover that does what it does is there ? How much does it go for? Its easy to say the Nautique is overpriced but where are the comps?
Old    McGavin (Shooter)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-18-2011, 8:52 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhunter View Post
Have you seen ,driven or ridden a 200 and 200 sport?
What are the quality cheaper brands? How much are they?
Really? You're come back is the way over priced 200? I have not rode behind a 200 and nor do I want to wakeboard behind a crossover ski boat.

As for the quality brands...I like the Axis, MB, Epic, Supra and even Tige. All these boats have a lot to offer with some innovative ideas and sharp looks. Each still overprice but well over 20k cheaper. If you want to be the big dawg and charge what CC charges, you better act like it. We have not seen any real changes to their wake line since 2008!

Btw, I own a 2003 SANTE and love it!
Old    LR3w8kbrdr            08-18-2011, 8:57 PM Reply   
Ud be suprised then with the wakeboard wake behind the new sport 200. Place I ride have their 2011 SANTE sitting on shore on its trailer and the new 200 in the water for wakeboarders and wakeskaters.
Old    McGavin (Shooter)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-18-2011, 8:59 PM Reply   
81k for a 20ft boat sounds reasonable? Is that without trailer?
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       08-18-2011, 9:05 PM Reply   
So you are saying the Axis,MB, Epic,Supra and Tige are absolutely equal in every way to the Nautique?
If you load each one with identical options how much would they go for?
Lets compare to a 210 sante since there is nothing like the 200 sport out there.

You realy should demo a 200 sport its amazing.
Old    Matt (MattieK27)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-18-2011, 9:07 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhunter View Post
You must work for the government with your fuzzy adding.
76000
+ 5320.00 7% tax
Sounds more like 81320.00 out the door. Where did you get 90k. No wonder you think they are too high.
I said a 2012.

Quote:
A lot less than 100k? That makes the cost ok? Really? For a 20' crossover? Close to 90k after taxes for a 2012?
Quote:
Don't forget to add 10% for the new model year. I will let everyone form their own opinions on that price, but needless to say I did not pull the trigger...
76,000 + 10% increase equals 83,600. (Assuming that 15% discount still can be had) 7.5% sales tax equals 89,870. Thanks though for checking the math and throwing an insult.

Quote:
81k for a 20ft boat sounds reasonable? Is that without trailer?
Apparently some people think so. That is with the basic single axle trailer.
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       08-18-2011, 9:08 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooter View Post
81k for a 20ft boat sounds reasonable? Is that without trailer?
Maybe not but a far cry from 90k. How much does a MC X14 Vdrive go for?
Old    McGavin (Shooter)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-18-2011, 9:12 PM Reply   
I'm not saying the above are equal to CC...I'm saying CC is not worth the large added price...I have a friend with a loaded Axis and know for a fact that it was close to 30k cheaper than a new loaded 210..if CC cut the crap and made a simple old-hull 210 for even close to what a Axis is going for, they would dominate the wake market.
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       08-18-2011, 9:14 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattieK27 View Post
I'm unsure what brands he was refering to, but I can tell you about the 200 Sport.

Nice boat, I really liked it except for the giant rear end. I prefer the way they did the transom on the current 210, 220, and current 230. When I priced a 200v out, after a 15% discount from the dealer I was at 76,000 before tax. Keep in mind the boat was far from loaded, with only the basic color scheme and standard black tower. (Every color tower you see is an $800 option, supposedly Nautique has to strip all the black ones they get and repaint them...)

Don't forget to add 10% for the new model year. I will let everyone form their own opinions on that price, but needless to say I did not pull the trigger...



Yep, better post up a pic of that blue Tige to settle things down...
I didn't price out a 200 sport ask mat he said it goes for 76k plus tax. From 100k to 90k to 81k what are the rel numbers?
Old    Matt (MattieK27)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-18-2011, 9:20 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhunter View Post
I didn't price out a 200 sport ask mat he said it goes for 76k plus tax. From 100k to 90k to 81k what are the rel numbers?
I dont get where this crappy attitude is coming from. Where was it 100k? I think i was fairly clear about 90k referring to a 2012.

You want to be technical, lets go off the list price of 82,539 for a 2011 I was given. Add in 3900 for the trailer, 1500 for destination and prep, and tax, you still end up over 90k. Would it be easier for you if I just scanned the quote in? Or would you find issues with that as well?
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       08-18-2011, 9:24 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooter View Post
I'm not saying the above are equal to CC...I'm saying CC is not worth the large added price...I have a friend with a loaded Axis and know for a fact that it was close to 30k cheaper than a new loaded 210..if CC cut the crap and made a simple old-hull 210 for even close to what a Axis is going for, they would dominate the wake market.
I call BS no way you can compare a Nautique with an Axis. I heard that the 20' is at least 50k and the 22' is over 55k. Without the bild quility , accessories power train and warranty the 210 comes with. Why dont you compare to a top of the line MC,BU,Tigeor Supra?
Old    Aaron (aarond0083)      Join Date: Apr 2007       08-18-2011, 9:30 PM Reply   
A 200 isn't 81K. If it that's what someone is being quoted I question the dealer.
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       08-18-2011, 9:30 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattieK27 View Post
I dont get where this crappy attitude is coming from. Where was it 100k? I think i was fairly clear about 90k referring to a 2012.

You want to be technical, lets go off the list price of 82,539 for a 2011 I was given. Add in 3900 for the trailer, 1500 for destination and prep, and tax, you still end up over 90k. Would it be easier for you if I just scanned the quote in? Or would you find issues with that as well?
No attitude here I just want to be clear. If you are going to quote a list price for one boat and a negotiated out the door price for another boat I get confused. If you read the entire thread 100k has been quoted more than once.
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       08-18-2011, 9:32 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by aarond0083 View Post
A 200 isn't 81K. If it that's what someone is being quoted I question the dealer.
200 Sport Vdrive.
Old    Matt (MattieK27)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-18-2011, 9:35 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhunter View Post
No attitude here I just want to be clear. If you are going to quote a list price for one boat and a negotiated out the door price for another boat I get confused. If you read the entire thread 100k has been quoted more than once.
It wasnt me who said 100k, and I believe all those comments were in reference to the 210 not the 200 we are now talking about.
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       08-18-2011, 10:03 PM Reply   
210s are not 100k either.

Look guys the point of all of this is not to call anyone out . I just get tired of the never ending bashing of Nautique. Not the boat but the price . There are a ton of misquotes and incorrect facts out there. Just read this thread its full of them. Nautique doesn't build inexpensive boats . They dont want to build low end stripped models using hulls from the past. Nautique is a brand you move up into . They compete with other top brands. They are not for everyone. When I was shopping I looked at MC,BU,Supra,Tige and Nautiqe. The only one that was cheaper than the Nauti was the Supra and not by much. If you buy without looking at all of them and getting real pricing you may not be getting the best boat for the money. Just because somebody says a brand is overpriced doesn't make it so.
There is an a$$ for every seat and my a$$ is very happy to be in the seat of a Nautique.
Old    Matt (MattieK27)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-18-2011, 10:14 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhunter View Post
210s are not 100k either.

Look guys the point of all of this is not to call anyone out . I just get tired of the never ending bashing of Nautique. Not the boat but the price . There are a ton of misquotes and incorrect facts out there. Just read this thread its full of them. Nautique doesn't build inexpensive boats . They dont want to build low end stripped models using hulls from the past. Nautique is a brand you move up into . They compete with other top brands. They are not for everyone. When I was shopping I looked at MC,BU,Supra,Tige and Nautiqe. The only one that was cheaper than the Nauti was the Supra and not by much. If you buy without looking at all of them and getting real pricing you may not be getting the best boat for the money. Just because somebody says a brand is overpriced doesn't make it so.
There is an a$$ for every seat and my a$$ is very happy to be in the seat of a Nautique.
As long as there are people that feel the same way as you, and those people are actually buying new boats, then Nautique will be fine. My fear, as a Nautique fan, is that less and less people feel the same way. Factory output is optimized for 12 boats a day, they are between 5 and 6 right now.

Dont feel Nautiques are overpriced? You have an 08' SANTE 210 right? Just for laughs, go price out a new 2012 210 (which is basically the same boat you have) and compare the MSRP to your boat.
Old    McGavin (Shooter)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-18-2011, 10:17 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhunter View Post
I call BS no way you can compare a Nautique with an Axis. I heard that the 20' is at least 50k and the 22' is over 55k. Without the bild quility , accessories power train and warranty the 210 comes with. Why dont you compare to a top of the line MC,BU,Tigeor Supra?
So let's go with what you just said...55k-60k for a loaded 22ft Axis with tandem trailer...chillax seating, plug & play ballast, Wedge, indmar engine and 3 year warranty.

85k-90k for a 21ft Nautique with stadium seating, PCM engine and 5 year warrant (part & labor 3 year)

I'm not trying to sell a Axis and I do think the build quality of the nauti is superior. I just think the Axis is better looking, has a decent wake with some cool features for a price that is close to reasonable. At what point does price out weight the difference in quality?
Old    Dave H (masterDraft)      Join Date: Jan 2011       08-18-2011, 10:31 PM Reply   
all - wakeworld is a minority. i am assuming most on this site are hardcore wakeboarders (skaters). does an cheap-ss axis boat compare to a nautique in looks??? hell no!!! not in the opinion of most. does it fit chattwake's needs (hardcore), absolutely yes. nautique's target market is much different than axis' (what doctor/millionare that lives on the butler chain-of-lakes in orlando views vandall as a spokeman????). so on this site, does axis get creed, yes.... but remember, this is a small community (though a great one) that looks for specifics in a boat (great wake, tower, etc.). i know there are multiple engineers, etc. on this site, but now let the marketing people should speak up. the doctor living on a lake that takes his kids/grandkids wakeboarding once a month is buying a nautique, not an axis.
Old    McGavin (Shooter)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-18-2011, 10:31 PM Reply   
Masterdraft,

The Dr You speak of wants a Nautique partly because the core wakeboarder that tells him the wake and boat is the best. He wants the ladies to think he is a hardcore wakeboarder and money is no object.....fast forward to a time where the hardcore boarders are now riding behind other boats primarily because Nautique no longer markets to them..do you think the Dr will still want a Nauti?

I also saw a 21ft loaded MB at the boat show for under 60k. PCM engine, under floor gravity ballast and 3 year warranty. I have not driven one, but it looked like a quality boat.

Btw: CC has lost me when it comes to looks...I don't like the new tower or graphics. I think the boat looks over done and too busy... I prefer the looks of Axis, Tige or Supra and I know I'm not the only one.
Old    A-dub (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-18-2011, 10:41 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhunter View Post
210s are not 100k either.

Look guys the point of all of this is not to call anyone out . I just get tired of the never ending bashing of Nautique. Not the boat but the price . There are a ton of misquotes and incorrect facts out there. Just read this thread its full of them. Nautique doesn't build inexpensive boats . They dont want to build low end stripped models using hulls from the past. Nautique is a brand you move up into . They compete with other top brands. They are not for everyone. When I was shopping I looked at MC,BU,Supra,Tige and Nautiqe. The only one that was cheaper than the Nauti was the Supra and not by much. If you buy without looking at all of them and getting real pricing you may not be getting the best boat for the money. Just because somebody says a brand is overpriced doesn't make it so.
There is an a$$ for every seat and my a$$ is very happy to be in the seat of a Nautique.
Man, that's some good Kool-aid ain't it!?!!?
Old    Matt (MattieK27)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-18-2011, 10:48 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by masterDraft View Post
all - wakeworld is a minority. i am assuming most on this site are hardcore wakeboarders (skaters). does an cheap-ss axis boat compare to a nautique in looks??? hell no!!! not in the opinion of most. does it fit chattwake's needs (hardcore), absolutely yes. nautique's target market is much different than axis' (what doctor/millionare that lives on the butler chain-of-lakes in orlando views vandall as a spokeman????). so on this site, does axis get creed, yes.... but remember, this is a small community (though a great one) that looks for specifics in a boat (great wake, tower, etc.). i know there are multiple engineers, etc. on this site, but now let the marketing people should speak up. the doctor living on a lake that takes his kids/grandkids wakeboarding once a month is buying a nautique, not an axis.
You're right, I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattiek27
Nautique and the other premium builders are chasing the high end market, mainly because regardless of the economy those are the people that always have money. So they will continue to load boats up with every gimmic and gadget to help "justify" that increase.
The problem is what you said does not mean the boat is worth the extra cost. It simply means it has been priced for a luxury market.
Old    A-dub (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-18-2011, 10:49 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by masterDraft View Post
all - wakeworld is a minority. i am assuming most on this site are hardcore wakeboarders (skaters). does an cheap-ss axis boat compare to a nautique in looks??? hell no!!! not in the opinion of most. does it fit chattwake's needs (hardcore), absolutely yes. nautique's target market is much different than axis' (what doctor/millionare that lives on the butler chain-of-lakes in orlando views vandall as a spokeman????). so on this site, does axis get creed, yes.... but remember, this is a small community (though a great one) that looks for specifics in a boat (great wake, tower, etc.). i know there are multiple engineers, etc. on this site, but now let the marketing people should speak up. the doctor living on a lake that takes his kids/grandkids wakeboarding once a month is buying a nautique, not an axis.
That Dr takes the initial depreciation hit, the grandkids get bored of the lake and boarding very quickly (who are we kidding, they're really just tubing behind that $100k boat), and then said Dr. tries to sell it for way too much because "It's a Nautique"..... all the while, Nautique continues to build fewer boats per year, thus raising the price even more, which does help re-sale because there are still people like Mr Hunter, however fewer of them, and the majority of the wake market who continues to buy and support the industry has moved on to the not as expensive brands. So, said Dr. is a great option to market to for the time being. I'd also project more and more of said Dr.'s are moving to the newly marketed wake I/O's, because they like to get good deals too. Most Dr.'s show off with their car, house, etc, not so much the boat anymore.
Old    Nick Heckerson (kstateskier)      Join Date: May 2002       08-18-2011, 11:10 PM Reply   
I just think that it's funny that everyone is so used to the price of these boats that we are arguing how good $60,000 "price point" boats are. I will look at the sticker on a new Escalade at $78,000 and I can't believe it, but walking through the boat show and seeing "Boat Show Price, $90,000" doesn't even make me flinch.

Without arguing brand vs. brand, are the improvements on these boats worth their price increase YoY. When I was younger, I remember my parents buying a new Malibu in '92 loaded for about $18,000 IIRC. I remember they paid about $24,000ish for a new Silverado around the same time. 20 years later, a loaded Response LXI (comparable) is going to cost you about $50,000. You could get about the same Silverado trim (Z71, cloth) for high $20s. Is there that much added value in the new boats? $32,000 increase on the boat, $5k ish on the truck if that?? That '92 was built as well if not better than the current Malibus. They put 1500+ hours on that boat with very few issues. They currently have an '07 that has been at the dealer for a month and a half with a number of issues.

I believe that their are two things that absolutely made the inboard boat market outrageously expensive. First, it was the many people in the early part of the decade using their house as a bank to buy these toys, and we see where that got most people. Second, the ability to finance for 15+ years. Why would you ever finance anything for 15 years that is a depreciating asset? Without the ability to do these two things, the market would have never had the spike it did in the early 2000s and the prices would not have skyrocketed to today's levels.

To me it's all just crazy and even though I love the lake more than anything, I will continue to mooch rides until I am forced to buy because I can't mooch anymore.
Old    A-dub (behindtheboat)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-18-2011, 11:17 PM Reply   
less boats while maintaining same if not higher profit margin. Also, new factories, layoffs, etc. Used to make a few bucks building good boats those days, now they make a lot of bucks building fewer boats. Also, material and manufacturing costs have gone up greatly.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       08-19-2011, 6:46 AM Reply   
I don't want to get sucked into a debate here, but a loaded Axis with the standard motor (335hp), tricked out trailer, wedge, bimini, cover, cruize, chillax, tower mirror bracket, pop up cleats, and stereo pack 2 could be had in the low to mid 50's, depending on the dealer and the color scheme. A comparably equipped 210 is going to run you in the low 80's - coming from my friend who works at a cc dealership. You are talking an almost 30k difference between a 210 and an Axis. I will not debate that the 210 carries more prestige with a broad spectrum of boaters (wakeboarders and non-wakeboarders alike). On reason for this is the cost factor. People associate quality with cost, and associate success with money. The reality is that a 210 is a very well built boat. The standard pcm motor is bullet proof. The 210 wake is absolutely money. The tower is rock solid, although many people hate the look of it. Personally, I'd love to own a 210. It's a little small for me, because I have kids and a bunch of friends, but it's a damn nice boat. However, knowing what other options are out there on the market for substantially less money, and given the fact that I don't have money to burn at this point in my life, I couldn't justify purchasing a 210 at current prices.

While there have been a lot of numbers thrown around out there in this thread, its a simple truth that Correct Craft's prices have risen astronomically since launching the new 210 and redesignating the 230 as a "wakeboat" in 2007. I bought 230's at invoice for 3 years from my local cc dealer and cost went up every year between 7 and 12k (some of that was due to additional options - like the LINC - being made standard on the Team boats and the FCT3 and 5 series towers). I"m sorry, but looking back, there's not a whole lot of SUBSTANTIVE differences between the 230 I had back in '08 and the '12 that's sitting at the local dealer today. Yes, there is now a screen, some snazzy carpet and a new tower - and the pcm zr motor was bumped 19 hp in '09), but that's really about it. No changes have been made to the 210 or 230 hulls, no plug n play, no other new wake enhancing features, etc. For me to go buy a 2012 230 at a deal price would have cost me $25k more than what I paid for my 2008. I love the quality of CC's boats, but I don't see the justification for that much of a price increase in 4 years.

However, all this being said, someone will buy the $95k 2012 230 sitting at my local dealer at some point, in part, simply because it is a nautique, and because the purchaser is not sweating the extra coin. Perhaps that's the market CC's intending to sell boats to now, who knows? Wake boarding has never been a poor man's sport, but it's getting to where MC and CC seem to be catering exclusively to the upper-class purchaser, and turning a blind eye to the middle-class guys. It is what it is. The good news is that for those who can't afford a nautique, there are other quality options available from about 4-5 other manufacturers.
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       08-19-2011, 6:57 AM Reply   
Quote:
However, all this being said, someone will buy the $95k 2012 230 sitting at my local dealer at some point, in part, simply because it is a nautique, and because the purchaser is not sweating the extra coin.
How many of the higher end boats do you think can get written off on people's taxes? My thought is lots of the buyers of these really high-end boats must have a good job or mommy/daddy money... The good job most likely means they have people working under them and/or a client base.... would boat be something one could easily write-off in the sense "employees could use it" or for "use with customers"....

I know my neighbor/uncle did it with his pontoon, he sells real-estate in our area with of homes sold like 60% are waterfront... so he could WOW buyers by showing them homes on the lake, from the lake.
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       08-19-2011, 8:24 AM Reply   
Nicely said Chat. At last some reality instead of opinion. The thing that bothers me is the constant referral to the 100k 210 . Even though its not true its still being quoted. Is the Nautique overpriced absolutely are they ALL overpriced without a doubt. The fact is with the currant geniuses running this country the dollar has lost st least 25% of buying power. Its easy to look back at past years and remember a time when the boats were more reasonable. Its unfortunate that wages have not kept up with prices. Most of my monthly expense goes to fuel,food tax and insurance.
I have always said nobody builds a bad boat buy the one you want. If your happy that's great. I guess I am just a Kool Aid drinker my 210 is the best boat I have ever owned. I hope you feel the same about your boat.
Old    Joel Treiger (spf2275)      Join Date: Mar 2011       08-19-2011, 8:49 AM Reply   
The big 3 figured out that's it's a lot easier to deal with people that are Ok with dropping a 100k on a boat than it is dealing with people who push themselves up to 60k. The guy that drops a 100k is usually easy to please. The guy pushing himself to 60k wants the world because he pushed himself out of his comfort zone. If you read back through all the posts in this thread there is a clear cut example of this fact.

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