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Old    alan plotz (alanp)      Join Date: Apr 2001       03-24-2008, 5:39 PM Reply   
(off topic)i started a off axis 360 thread a couple years ago. since then i have added tips for various other tricks. throughout the summer i found myself printing off various sections of that thread to take on the boat to help me try and learn tricks. soooooo

having been on here a few years now i know many people are gonna want tips on backrolls so im gonna run thru some of the threads and cut and paste tips here. im also gonna do one for raleys, tantrums and 360s.
Old    alan plotz (alanp)      Join Date: Apr 2001       03-24-2008, 5:46 PM Reply   
CUT AND PASTED FROM ANOTHER LINK.

You really don't need huge edge for this trick. Just edge more slowly, but progressively and keep your edge and line tension all the way through the wake. Keep the handle at your lead hip. Stand very tall at the very top of the wake. Really exaggerate the last two steps. Think jumping high, not far out. Then initiate the rotation by looking over your lead shoulder. So: 1) mellow, but progressive cut 2) really stand tall at the very top of the wake 3) initiate rotation by looking over your lead shoulder and up 4) bend your knees for a soft landing - almost as if you had never left the water
Old    Cliff (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       03-24-2008, 8:42 PM Reply   
you make it sound easy alan
is there a downside to not clearing the wakes?
do you slow the boat down when learning or shorten the rope?
Old    alan plotz (alanp)      Join Date: Apr 2001       03-25-2008, 7:28 AM Reply   
CUT AND PASTED FROM ANOTHER LINK

So to start off, cut out about the same distance you would for a normal wake jump. Take a mellow edge into the wake, then once you have almost reached the wake really load the line, which means put alot of pressure on your edge at the wake. You will need to keep the handle in close to your body, so try to touch your elbows to your sides. Make sure to edge all the way through the wake, and also make sure to stand tall at the top of the wake. This doesnt mean stop edging, keep that strong edge through the wake while you stand tall. Then once you are leaving the wake look over you lead shoulder, and your rotation will start. Also again make sure to never let the handle away from you body while doing the rotation, if you let the handle out during the rotation you will come up short. When you keep the handle in close it speeds up the rotation, so make sure to do this. When you spot the water over your lead shoulder get ready to land. It is definitely better to over rotate this trick than it is to under rotate, but if you do find yourself over rotating it, when you spot the water slowly let the handle out again. Also to prevent yourself from going to revert let the handle out towards the flats when you land. Remember, do not try to throw this trick off of the wake. It is a load and release invert, so the boat should do most of the work for you as long as you do what I said above. Hope this helps.


Cliff the downside to not clearing the wakes is a harder landing. It's easier to land in the transition of the wake. For some tricks i did slow the boat down and shorten the rope but i dont recall doing it for the backroll.
Old    alan plotz (alanp)      Join Date: Apr 2001       03-25-2008, 7:30 AM Reply   
CUT AND PASTED FROM ANOTHER LINK

Starting out dont cut out to hard for this trick. You want to have a hard edge when you hit the wake. The key to the backroll is to keep the handle close into you hip this will keep your rotation moving. So cris just focus on keeping the handle towards you front hip. Ride all the way up the wake! a big mistake people make is to rush this trick and then they dont get the rotation. When you hit the wake look towards your lead shoulder. Where ever you look is where u are going flip. Hope this helps keep me posted it will take time so dont get frustrated.
Old    Robert A. Rodriguez (robertr720)      Join Date: Aug 2007       03-25-2008, 7:38 AM Reply   
That is a great idea alan, thanks for the work you will have to put in and hopefully others will contribute too and there won't be a million threads on the same thing this year.
Old    alan plotz (alanp)      Join Date: Apr 2001       03-25-2008, 8:11 AM Reply   
thanks robert that is exactly what im trying to avoid.

CUT AND PASTED FROM ANOTHER LINK

I think that most people who are just learning the back roll have more success with a harder cut. I would say that it looks like you arnt quite getting the pop at the wake. If you watch the video, you cant even tell from your speed when you hit the wake. You want to kind of stand tall right before you intiate the roll. I know that sounds crazy, hard to explain in words, but I think if you will do that, it should allow you to take the roll alot higher, and you should have plenty of carry from your cut to clear both wakes and easily get the full rotation..
Old    alan plotz (alanp)      Join Date: Apr 2001       03-25-2008, 8:13 AM Reply   
CUT AND PASTED FROM ANOTHER LINK

Yes! You only look over your lead shoulder to spot your landing. That's the last thing you should be doing before your land. To initiate a backroll, just tuck your ear to your back shoulder.

Think of it as a cartwheel. If you're standing still about to do a cartwheel, the first thing you do is drop your ear to a shoulder to get momentum and then you put your hand on the ground followed by your other hand, etc etc. They are the same pretty much except for the fact that a backroll is kind of a reverse cartwheel. They move in the opposite direction. Don't worry about that though. The initiation is the same.
Old    alan plotz (alanp)      Join Date: Apr 2001       03-25-2008, 8:14 AM Reply   
CUT AND PASTED FROM ANOTHER LINK

It took me forever to figure it out, but now that I finally got it a few times it feels right. My skill level isn't anywhere as close to many of the guys and girls on this site, but Ill try to explain it to you.

I took a medium to short (5-10 feet out) progressive edge. And then right before I hit the wake I rock a little weight on my back foot, pull the rope in as close to my front hip/pelvic area as possible. Then rock/crunch my head to my back shoulder (like a backward cartwheel-as someone said earlier in this post). After you try it a few times it will feel comfortable. The hardest part I was having was holding onto the handle, but once I had the correct rotation everything felt right. I then had time to spot my landing, bend my knees, hold onto the rope tight, actually land, and ride away.

All of this has been said many times before, but really concentrate on initiating it with the "backwards cartwheel" movement. Thats what helped me.
Old    alan plotz (alanp)      Join Date: Apr 2001       03-25-2008, 8:20 AM Reply   
this is from wakeboard singapore(awesome site with alot of tricks explained and sequence photos of the tricks)

Link:

http://www.wakeboard.com.sg/index.php?showtopic=88

Text:

The HS Backroll is one of the first few inverts you should attempt. If you you can clear both wakes comfortably then this trick should be farliy easy to learn.

First of all, you need to remember is that you can't throw the rotation for the roll. What creates the rotation is actually a tight line. Therefore, take a progressive cut into the wake, gradually loading the line, while keeping your handle low and close to your hip.

As you ride up the wake, continue to keep the handle close to you and edge your board up and away from the boat while looking over your forward shoulder. Remember, don't flatten out or you'll get a slack line and lose all your momentum. You really want to keep the line taut.

After you have left the wake and starting to rotate. Keep you handle locked in. You'll realize that you are actually rotating around the handle. If you let you handle out, your center of gravity becomes higher and therefore harder to rotate. Meanwhile continue to look over your front shoulder and try to spot the landing.

Common problems:
If you don't get air, remember to try to pop too hard or throw your board too hard. This tends to make you flatten your board at the wake, thus losing all you momentum.

If you have the height but still end up eating the wake, then you're probably letting your handle out as you rotate. Just keep it in.

If you are over-rotating, you're probably throwing the trick to hard. If you know you're getting a lot of air, just tug the handle in a little as you come down and that would help stop the rotation a little. Either that, or you've got to much weight on your back foot and slide out a lot on landing. You want to take off with even weight on your board.

Tips by David Ngiam
Old    alan plotz (alanp)      Join Date: Apr 2001       03-25-2008, 5:34 PM Reply   
from wakeboarder.com

Cut outside of the wake about 10-15 feet and wait for the boat to start to naturally pull you back towards the wake. When this happens, bend your knees a bit, put the board on the heelside edge slowly, keep the rope in tight, and lean away from the boat. As you approach the wake, your edge should be getting harder and harder. This is very important for this trick.

As you hit the wake, you should still be edging hard with the rope in tight, but you now should be standing tall like the rider in this photo. Also, people tend to leave early when learning a backroll, keep edging hard and standing tall and the wake will kick you up into the roll without you having to do much work. As you take off, look over your front shoulder and up to initiate the rotation.

While in the air, you can control your rotation speed by your rope position. If you're underrotating, keep the rope in tighter, if you're going to overrotate, then let the rope out a little bit as you spot your landing like the rider in the photo is doing here.

You can usually see the water pretty early on this trick, so get your head up and spot your landing. Some people find it easier to let go with their back hand to make sure they don't do a roll to revert.
Old    Steve - O (misteve)      Join Date: Aug 2007       03-26-2008, 12:19 PM Reply   
Thanks, Alan I plan on trying some when I get out next.

Huge fan of these threads, VERY HELPFUL!

Muchas Gracias!
Old    Greg (greg_sa)      Join Date: Jan 2006       03-27-2008, 12:04 AM Reply   
I'm busy learning back rolls - I'm getting the rotation all the way round, but I'm messing up the landing. Sometimes I'm not thinking, and let go, other times, the handle gets jerked out my hand.

The things I learned that are mentioned above are:

* Stand VERY tall (most important part). You won't rotate properly if you don't.
* Keep the handle close to your hip (I do the entire cut towards the wake with the handle very close to my hip).
Old    alan plotz (alanp)      Join Date: Apr 2001       03-27-2008, 11:15 AM Reply   
to add to what greg is saying. i do two variations of the backroll the mexican and the end over end or reverse cartwheel type.

for the mexican i keep the rope close to my front hip.

for the traditional backroll i keep the center of the handle about 8"-10" from my belly button.

you can use the rope to slow down the rotation by letting it away from your body in the air and you can speed it up by pulling it closer.
Old    Steve O. (wink_vlx)      Join Date: Jun 2006       03-27-2008, 2:48 PM Reply   
Any suggestions for Backroll to blown Ab!
Old    Keith (hawaiianstiln)      Join Date: Oct 2004       03-28-2008, 3:46 PM Reply   
landing these I have no problem, but grabbing them I do. What's the tip to grab them.
Old    alan plotz (alanp)      Join Date: Apr 2001       03-28-2008, 5:11 PM Reply   
keith are u throwing them mexican or regular. let me know and ill try to point you in the right direction
Old    Robert A. Rodriguez (robertr720)      Join Date: Aug 2007       03-29-2008, 9:48 AM Reply   
Hey Alan, not to discredit from what you are doing, but you seem to be in to the trick tips and any info that can make a learning process more simple. I just wanted to point out this website to you, http://www.learnwake.com/ , the site is hosted by Kyle Schmidt and Mike McLin, the makers of the book and they are trying to put something together where the more specific questions are answered and they will be doing segments on things that are helpful like grabing inverts, spins, and how to stay in control on things too. They also have some very effective drills and the best part is that you can ask them anything about the trick that you are working and they will try to help you out which is fantastic, cause those two are an endless dictionary of trick info. Sorry for the hijack just thought that you should know, check it out while it is still free. Later,

Robert R.
Old    Keith (hawaiianstiln)      Join Date: Oct 2004       03-29-2008, 2:53 PM Reply   
regular backroll consistantly
Old    alan plotz (alanp)      Join Date: Apr 2001       04-03-2008, 8:49 PM Reply   
i grab my regular backrolls melan and nose. its far easier to grab melan so ill try to post a couple of tips. i dont keep the rope in super close b/c when grabbing the board it seems to speed up the rotation. i take off a little more squatted than a normal roll. as soon as i begin to get inverted i bring the board back like i would for a method grab. bend the knees. you should be able to see the board and reach for the board. keep the rope centered because if you let it to far out it will slow your rotation down and you'll end up on ur butt. if you can get the board the rest of the trick is the same. just release and land. when i was learning to grab i remember that it wanted to throw me to revert. in hindsight i wish i had learned that trick now im trying to get a grab on my r2r. good luck
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       04-09-2008, 10:04 AM Reply   
So you look over your lead shoulder to time and spot the landing. And put your ear to back shoulder to start the rotation. Sounds like timing is everything.
Old    Keith (hawaiianstiln)      Join Date: Oct 2004       04-09-2008, 11:26 AM Reply   
I don't even think about all that. I just go about 5 feet outside the wake with a progressive edge back in. At the last minute, I edge away from the boat really hard, standing fairly tall and it pops me right around. I let go with the back hand as I come out of the trick so that I don't go to revert.
Old    Frankie Cramer (troutpac)      Join Date: Feb 2008       05-26-2008, 5:26 AM Reply   
I took a lesson with Kyle (the book) and I tried some air rolls out in the flats.I kept the rope in,my legs straight,and bounced against the boat and then released it.It was sick,I couldnt believe how you get thrown into it.
I was close to landing one and he said this is what it should feel like when you take it to the wake.My question is: When you stand tall, in order to keep that edge, do you stand tall pushing away from the pull of the boat and then release at the top to get thrown into the roll.? Should you be leaning away from the boat on edge through the entire trick like I did with the air roll.It just seems like I will not get much height but I guess I wont know until I man up and take it to the wake.
Old    Seth (rourker)      Join Date: Jun 2006       05-28-2008, 2:50 PM Reply   
Focus on the pop of a loaded line leading with your lead shoulder and chest. This will help you stand tall. You will feel the release when you leave the wake. Just make sure to take the trick up, first, before you roll, and keep the handle at your hip. You will get around and with plenty of time to spot the landing
Old    Frankie Cramer (troutpac)      Join Date: Feb 2008       05-30-2008, 3:43 PM Reply   
Ok On an air roll it feels like the board goes up , then behind , and then forward to land. Is this correct and should it feel the same at the wake.?
Old    SJ (jixxxer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       06-05-2008, 7:10 AM Reply   
Im guessing its not possible to do a backroll on the water if I cant (or never tried) a back flip on a trampoline. I have a trampoline but am scared to try a backflip! Can someone coach on doing a backflip on the trampoline. (I have kids,job,mortages;;;cant afford to break neck). lol
Old    Cole (wakeboarder46)      Join Date: Jun 2007       06-08-2008, 2:28 PM Reply   
i have a ? to of what Poorboy wakeboader (jixxxer) said

do you have to be able to do a backflip on a trampoline before you try a backroll on the water?
Old    alan plotz (alanp)      Join Date: Apr 2001       06-10-2008, 8:26 PM Reply   
cut and paste from another site

I guess the reason people didn't respond is because there are about 12,000 backroll attempt threads on here - I'm not trying to be arsy - just saying it is worth doing a search and looking through some of them. Lots of them have video to help out.

The rotation for a BR is surprisingly easy - it really is just a question of looking over your lead shoulder (I don't understand how there can be any confusion over what the 'lead' shoulder is - the one at the front in the direction of travel - as Nooga says "the one connected to the lead arm" ) . But this results in your hips rotating, which is where the rotation really comes from.

Try this just to give you an idea of it.

Sit in a chair (preferably) a rotating office chair. Hold your hands out in front gripping an imaginary handle. Imagine the boat in front of you, and the wake away to your left (assuming you are regular).
Now look high up the wall directly behind you over your left shoulder (again, assuming you are regular). Feel your side stretch and your hips try and swing?

That is what creates the rotation.

You can do the same thing standing up.

It is also worth rythmically going from the "looking forward" position to the "looking over your shoulder behind you" position, and you will start to feel the way the rotation works.

When you get it to the water, just remember that same swing.

Try and think of it as a HS jump, not as an invert. I know that seems weird, but given that (I assume) it is your first invert, and on the basis of your post, you are probably going to worry about the rotation. Don't. Worry about your pop. If you pop right, the rotation is easy. If you think about "throwing" it aggressively, then you'll lose your pop and you'll try and throw it off the wake.

I think the hardest thing about BR's is leaving them late enough, and not throwing them as you go up the wake. If you see a video of your riding, you should not be able to tell even as you go up the wake whether you are about to do a HSw2w or a BR. You see loads of footage of people leaning right back even at the bottom of the wake (I did this for ages) in anticipation. If you do that, you can't get pop.

If you have jumped normally off the wake, and only then initiated with your head, you will feel that you have left it way too late, you are going to crash horribly, and you ought to bail out. That is the first one you'll land on your board. After that the more you look for your landing, the easier it gets.
Old    Keith (hawaiianstiln)      Join Date: Oct 2004       06-10-2008, 11:53 PM Reply   
hats off on the office chair tip. I don't even really think about anything anymore when I throw them and ride away. BUT, i figured to try the office chair tip and was amazed at how much it does feel the same when I go into the wake on these.
Old    SJ (jixxxer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       06-11-2008, 2:24 PM Reply   
So has anyone learned a backroll yet since posting your ? on here.
Old    Clint (lffreak)      Join Date: Jan 2008       06-13-2008, 1:19 PM Reply   
I am going to start to try backrolls and was just wondering if it is easier to start trying them and regular speed or slowing the boat down to reduce hard falls. How did all you try your 1st one?
Old    alan plotz (alanp)      Join Date: Apr 2001       06-13-2008, 2:57 PM Reply   
clint i would start at regular speed and learned them at regular speed. you can slow the boat down depending on your wake to 19 or so but you'll probably have to shorten the rope a bit which should reduce the impact.
Old    Clint (lffreak)      Join Date: Jan 2008       06-13-2008, 3:00 PM Reply   
Thanks alan im not really sure how fast i do ride because my speedometer is broken but i will just try them the speed i normally go
Old    jamie Nicol (jamien)      Join Date: Jun 2008       06-15-2008, 5:27 AM Reply   
Landed my first backroll last week
I find that If you take a medium progressive cut but just before you hit the wake edge a little bit harder than usual. This builds alot of line tension and throws the board back. if you then let your back shoulder drop it puts you into a back roll. then just relax until you spot the water.
Old    steve dazzla (bobby_dazzla)      Join Date: Jun 2008       06-15-2008, 5:57 PM Reply   
Hey guys I tried a few backrolls on the weekend and posted one of my attempts here for you guys to have a look at.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujnCG-eoqdE

From looking at that video I think i maybe need to keep the handle in a little closer to spin a bit quicker and maybe a bit more height?
This is my first invert attempts so I was pretty happy I got this far! Next time out I hope to land it!

Steve
Old    Ray Markham (wakeborder5)      Join Date: Jun 2002       06-16-2008, 10:09 AM Reply   
Steve,
I think you are starting your approach too far out from the wake and not using enough of a progressive edge and kind of cruising towards the wake instead of accelerating towards and, most importantly, just before and up the wake.}
Old    Frankie Cramer (troutpac)      Join Date: Feb 2008       06-20-2008, 5:09 AM Reply   
Hey-I am having trouble with the landings on a HS Backroll. I cut out wide let the boat pull me in for the first half then load hard at the wake. Most I am landing past the second wake but the landing is hard to see and when the board hits the water its really smacking down. Also, Im a little too far back on the landings to hold on(or too far on my back foot).But I dont know if its because Im coming up little short.Maybe if I had more height would my legs just fall to the water instead of smacking down? Do you guys really have to hold on tight on the landings? And is this a trick you can really spot the landing early? Should I just concentrate and dont let go.? Im so close!!!!! and all the tips on this thread helped a ton.Thanks Alan. Im at 21MPH 65 feet rope.The wake is not huge but decent.
Old    alan plotz (alanp)      Join Date: Apr 2001       10-29-2008, 11:18 PM Reply   
just bumping this up for the long winter!!
Old    Ryan (soonerwake85)      Join Date: Jun 2007       11-05-2008, 11:51 AM Reply   
Been trying backrolls most of the summer and finally landed my first one last sunday. I can land tantrums and ts frontrolls consistently but had the hardest time with this invert. Was super stoked to finally land it before the season was over!
Old    Keith (hawaiianstiln)      Join Date: Oct 2004       11-05-2008, 2:38 PM Reply   
awesome way to go Ryan! It must be the "sooner" in you rather than the later. (i'm an OU alum)
Old    Donna F (dfrost733)      Join Date: Mar 2009       05-18-2009, 5:09 PM Reply   
Here is Chandler's 1st backroll attempt. Any advice?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKtiGUD5RDg
Old    Dan Vargas (wakemandan)      Join Date: Feb 2003       05-18-2009, 7:05 PM Reply   
I'd tell him to hold the handle close to his hips with both hands for the whole trick.
Old    Keith (hawaiianstiln)      Join Date: Oct 2004       05-18-2009, 7:25 PM Reply   
yep, handle close to his hips, but you have to edge away from the boat right at the last minute to get the initial rotation started on this trick. It's not a "Huck it" type trick. It's basically a trick where you work with the wake to let it flip you. If you look at the video around 18 seconds into it, you will notice he's going straight into the wake. Going straight into the wake will make you try and huck it just to get around all the way.

I like to edge out about 35% all the way out, then progressively edge back in. At the bottom of the wake, I start edging away from the boat and I jam both hands straight down and at my hip. As I go up the wake and away from the boat, I slightly look over my right shoulder (i'm goofy). So he needs to look over his left shoulder
Old    Donna F (dfrost733)      Join Date: Mar 2009       05-19-2009, 3:25 AM Reply   
THanks, I will tell him and he can work on it this weekend. Maybe he will do better behind our new xlv this weekend!
Old    Anthony Ciardelli (liquidforcefan)      Join Date: Aug 2007       05-23-2009, 4:38 PM Reply   
I have a question, I have a backroll dialed on a smaller wake and shorter rope, I want to try it on a bigger wake and a longer rope but I spin really fast, any tips on how to slow my rotation?
Old    Keith (hawaiianstiln)      Join Date: Oct 2004       05-23-2009, 5:17 PM Reply   
yes, I have your fix. Rope/handle control is your best friend in this case. If you start spinning too fast, you have to let the handle out a little to slow it down. If you spin to slow, then pull the handle in closer
Old    Anthony Ciardelli (liquidforcefan)      Join Date: Aug 2007       05-24-2009, 7:02 PM Reply   
cool thanks for that gonna try it tomorrow.
Old    Frankie Cramer (troutpac)      Join Date: Feb 2008       06-05-2009, 6:02 AM Reply   
ok-good advice alan-I am rotating late now and landing on my board. It happens so fast though and I cant prepare for landing. any tricks of where to look while in the air so I can spot landing earlier? or with more tries will it get easier to see? I am also working on landing on the down slope of the wake to get a softer landing. when I land on the flat its like hitting cement and board slides out. Im getting there.
Old    Jeff (jeffg)      Join Date: Jun 2009       06-05-2009, 8:18 AM Reply   
Sorry this is long - I'm an old guy (50 and a grandpa)! 4 years ago I bought a boat and my family started wakeboarding. I feel I have good pop on my heel and toeside W2W jumps, I've landed a 360, but I'm struggling with the Back Roll and I want to land an invert badly!!!

I'm pretty sure I'm rotating too early (that's what me son tells me - he's lands them with ease now). I started trying backrolls two years ago. The first day out I was making good progress until I burst my eardrum on a botched attempt that I didn't commit to. I've tried numerous times since then but now it's just in my head I know I'm trying to just "huck" them too early but just can't seem to stop myself to wait longer and stand taller. I haven't tried one yet this year.

Here's my question: I ride at 24.4 mph with either an 80 or 83 foot rope (depending on the day). Should I try slowing way down to about 19 or 20 mph to give it a try?

Yesterday I had my wife slow down to 19 mph just to see what the speed felt like - I didn't try anything yet. At 19 mph, it feels like I'm going half speed and nothing would hurt. Maybe this would help me get past my mental block and allow me to at least get the feel of it (loading better and standing tall thru the wake) Kyle Schmidt on learnwake.com says this might help to get the feel. Has anyone tried this? At this slow speed I would probably just hit in the middle of the wakes but I'm wondering if it might help to get past my mental block and help teach me to stand tall, load the line and wait to initiate the roll.

Any thoughts would be great - thanks!
Old    Donna F (dfrost733)      Join Date: Mar 2009       06-07-2009, 7:01 PM Reply   
Chandler finally landed his backroll, (mexican style) but it's not consistent. He did get two in a row eventually. There are probably things he needs to do to make it more consistent. Here is the video. Any suggestions welcome!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEypmD_4Phg
Old    Dizzy Jenkins (dizzyj)      Join Date: Jul 2003       06-08-2009, 8:28 PM Reply   
Donna,

looks like a good clean progressive backroll to me. big too!

He probably just needs to get comfortable and learn to stop his rotation.
Old    Robot (k9fxr)      Join Date: Jul 2005       06-10-2009, 3:05 PM Reply   
Yeah looks progressive to me
Old    Frankie Cramer (troutpac)      Join Date: Feb 2008       06-22-2009, 6:22 AM Reply   
Nice backroll-when I saw the second backroll I see thats what all of my backrolls look like!!! If you look at each BR in the air he is in different stages of the trick throughout.The BR he landed,he released sooner than the one he crashed. his positions across the wakes are different.He starts his flip earlier off the wake than the second BR. See on the 1 st BR he rotates and then he kind of falls out of the trick onto the water (very nice) The 2nd BR he is still actually finishing the rotation(later) at landing time.Not enough time to see landing or get into a better landing position. I was told to release a bit earlier like he did in the 1 st BR giving you more time for your board to fall onto the water. Hope this makes sense. And it looks progressive to me. Mexican BR look more front to back.
Old    Donna F (dfrost733)      Join Date: Mar 2009       06-22-2009, 7:30 AM Reply   
yeah he has now got the timing down better for sure. These were the first he landed, so it was a work in progress. You should see him now though! They are almost perfection, huge too. He landed two yesterday in his INT competition. (which he took first :-) He is now working on his toe side front roll, landed one last Friday at the end of his session and can't wait to get back out to try it again. He has a competition this weekend and wants to be landing 3 inverts and a 360!
Old    Rich (digg311)      Join Date: Sep 2007       06-22-2009, 11:24 PM Reply   
Posted this in the main forum too... but since this is a hot topic here, I thought I'd jump in and see what people have to say...

I've tried to throw it about 5 times so far... no luck. Here is a video of me giving it a shot yesterday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seJ3sNkn-Bs

I think I see a few of the issues... but would love some outside feedback.

Thanks!
Old    Keith (hawaiianstiln)      Join Date: Oct 2004       06-23-2009, 7:47 AM Reply   
Well, first I would say that you don't have your rope/hands in the right place. They look a little high. My hands and rope are right at my hip level and they are very close to my body. But also understand that if your handle is close to your body with this trick, it will make you spin faster. When the rope is further away from your body, it will make you spin slower. This is how you slow down or speed up the trick if you need to.

Another thing is that your board looks like it's going straight into the wake. I like to usually tell people to edge away from the boat right at the last minute. This will keep your rope tight and a stronger edge, which is needed for this trick.
Once you get those two things down, you should be able to edge out about 5 feet from the wake and throw a back roll (wake 2 wake). Think of the trick as a pendulum. It's all timing, strong edge at the last minute, rope control.

Oh and to help you keep that rope down close to your hips...Right at the last minute, shove that rope down and try locking your arms straight down.
Old    Keith (hawaiianstiln)      Join Date: Oct 2004       06-23-2009, 7:52 AM Reply   
look where my hands and rope/handle are half way thru this trick

Upload
Old    Rich (digg311)      Join Date: Sep 2007       06-23-2009, 4:57 PM Reply   
Thanks Keith! I worked today on that short (5-6) foot cut... standing tall and trying to get as much pop as I could. Got pretty consistent and started throwing the BR again. Same story as before... making it almost all the way around, but losing my spin because I don't have the handle at my waist. I TOTALLY see it, but so far haven't been able to correct it. I'm riding again Thursday morning, I'll try your tip then... shoving the handle down and locking my arms.

Thanks again!
Rich
Old    Greg Beckman (pipeboarder)      Join Date: Sep 2003       06-23-2009, 6:01 PM Reply   
-rich-
it also looks like you are anticipating it too much. it looks like u start to throw the roll early off the wake, so you kind of slip out off the wake instead of riding all the way through the wake THEN throw the roll. you loose a lot of pop because of this. i used to have this problem with tantrums and it makes a serious difference riding all the way through the wake.
Old    Frankie Cramer (troutpac)      Join Date: Feb 2008       07-06-2009, 6:54 AM Reply   
is the landing on this trick much easier when landing on the downside of the second wake.? I been landing in the flats and the board slips out or the landing is too hard.
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       07-07-2009, 7:46 AM Reply   
Frankie - Absolutely! Most new tricks are easier to learn if you can take them w2w.

If you want to take it to the flats, getting your head around and spotting your landing can help a ton. When you can anticipate your landing, then you will stick tricks more consistently.
Old    Frankie Cramer (troutpac)      Join Date: Feb 2008       07-07-2009, 9:17 AM Reply   
seeing the landing will help. At least now when I land W2W the board lands nice and soft and it seems I can ride away easier.I was trying for a while to go out real wide cut too hard(speed).Now Im using a 10-15 foot harder edge and slower and getting it wake to wake. I was trying it too big.
Thanks for tip




'
Old    Alex (wldstylez)      Join Date: Aug 2007       07-24-2009, 2:03 PM Reply   
Okay, so I've read and watched hours upon hours of backroll tutorials and I feel like none of them really go into any depth for the most part about how to initiate the spin and keep it going. For instance, with a tantrum, after I've squared up with the wake and have extended my legs, I begin to initiate the invert by throwing my head back and pushing my hips through the flip. However, with a backroll I can't picture the spin in my mind at all. When I start to pop off the wake, I try to do as the tutorials say and look over my shoulder but I end up stopping halfway through the trick (it's probably because I'm letting my arms out). Some tutorials say to throw your whole side into the wake, others say to push your hips one way but throw your head in the opposite direction while leaving the board behind you, etc. I read about someone explaining it as if you were sitting in a chair and looking over your shoulder at the wall behind you. That was probably the one the made sense the most to me. Also, I don't quite understand the load/ release of the flip. I went out into the flats and practiced cutting away from the boat to see how the boat would would pull me back, but it didn't seem like a great force or anything. It was just a little more than subtle.

Anyways, I don't have any videos of me trying it yet... Any in depth description about load/release understanding, board and head placement to start the flip and keep it all the way through would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Old    carter alan livingston (ummcarter)      Join Date: Aug 2009       08-20-2009, 1:11 PM Reply   
I have a problem of holding on to the handle for a backroll. There is a point where it seems to yank on my grip really hard at the end of my rotation. I've tried this probably 100 times, i have held on to the rope and rode away only once, but I land it without the rope it probably half the time I try it. Am i doing everything right and i just need to hold on harder?

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/video/video.php?v=224718145222&subj=1715959915
Old    carter alan livingston (ummcarter)      Join Date: Aug 2009       08-20-2009, 1:36 PM Reply   
Should I be holding on with both hands for the whole trick?
Old    Steve Williams (jsw)      Join Date: Apr 2009       08-20-2009, 3:43 PM Reply   
carter, you dont have to. i dont because i feel i have more control on my landing. with this trick just make 100% sure you edge all the way up the wake, feel the pop, then start the roll by looking over your lead shoulder. if you are not getting all the way around it is solely because you are not waiting in the pop. you cannot throw this trick early off the wake. you will not rotate this trick correctly unless you wait. practice a few progressive wake jumps where you feel the wake really snapping you up into the air. hope this helps.
Old    carter alan livingston (ummcarter)      Join Date: Aug 2009       08-21-2009, 8:03 PM Reply   
okay, i figured out my problem of holding onto the handle. I was over rotating, throwing the roll off of the wake too hard. When I would let go, the rope would stop pulling me and I would land the trick ropeless. I was so frustrating that I would land the trick over half of the time but i could never hold onto the rope. Literally twenty minutes ago when I was out I tried not throwing the trick as hard, and so then I relied on the rope to spin me around. I landed it, finally after 100 plus attempts. I tried it 4 more times after this, and landed it 3 of those times. The feeling was awesome. Hope this can help anybody with holding on to the rope problems! I'll try to get vids up soon.
Old    Rich (digg311)      Join Date: Sep 2007       08-21-2009, 8:34 PM Reply   
Carter!
That's sweet, man. Congrats!!
Old    Paul Pappas (jimmyjoejohnsonn)      Join Date: Feb 2009       11-20-2009, 7:16 AM Reply   
BACKROLL FRUSTRATION! I have not a clue why this trick is not landing. I don't have any video to show me not landing one but I'll try and describe. I honestly feel like I'm edging all the way up the wake (as I'm sure everyone who can't land it does), and I'm rotating all the way around and landing on the board, usually nicely on the opposite wake. My buddy I ride with doesn't backroll and isn't really sure why I'm not riding the trick away.

I have landed it once or twice very smoothly, and thought afterward I had the trick for sure. I've tried one hand and two hands on the rope and I'm not really seeing major differences. The main issue I guess, is when I land it feels like the board is facing the boat and preventing me from riding away cleanly. If I really wanted to I could probably fight each one on my back edge and eventually ride away, but after one of those attempts went really poorly for me (getting pulled over the front of the board and tweeking my knee pretty good) I stopped fighting too hard if the landing doesn't go smooth. As you can tell by this ridiculously long post I'm frustrated, as I thought by the end of this season I'd be landing this trick at least better than 50% rather than 5% of the time. I get out once a month during the winter, so what can I do to try and get this trick consistent?

(Message edited by jimmyjoejohnsonn on November 20, 2009)

(Message edited by jimmyjoejohnsonn on November 20, 2009)
Old    Jacob Krigbaum (kriggs)      Join Date: Nov 2009       11-24-2009, 8:07 AM Reply   
Paul, try holding onto the handle as long as you can and that should help.
Old    CORY MITCHELL (stang_killa_ss)      Join Date: Jan 2010       06-11-2010, 7:16 AM Reply   
What speed should you be attempting these at?
Old    alan plotz (alanp)      Join Date: Apr 2001       06-13-2010, 7:28 AM Reply   
cory your normal riding speed. you can slow down your boat a little if you want but shorten the rope so you still ride on a clean wake
Old    PapaBProductions            07-13-2010, 3:18 PM Reply   
I always thought this was a HS Back Roll but That was before I saw a Mexican Roll. How appropriate cause all this video was taken in Baja Mexico. Watch It: Mexican Roll??
Old    alan plotz (alanp)      Join Date: Apr 2001       07-25-2011, 5:05 PM Reply   
bump
Old    Brody (WssLife)      Join Date: Jul 2011       07-31-2011, 9:23 PM Reply   
After watching some film of me doing backrolls and people successfully doing backrolls I realized that I am not cutting in quite as hard as I should, however another one of my problems that I do not know how to fix is when I attempt the backroll when I get upside down i get scared and throw the handle which kills my chances of ever landing it any tips on how to grow some balls and just do it?
Old    Steve (skidaddy)      Join Date: May 2008       08-02-2011, 6:08 AM Reply   
I am trying to learn these myself, but I think you just answered your own question.
Old    alan plotz (alanp)      Join Date: Apr 2001       08-02-2011, 4:29 PM Reply   
haha yeah. you gotta hold the handle man. thats like saying i wanna go wake to wake but i dont wanna jump. not possible

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