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Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       02-17-2011, 9:37 AM Reply   
Last night Ginny (my wife) and I talked to our tenants and heard one of the most depressing accounts of the disgusting actions our govt inflicts on good people...

Our tenants Mel and his wife have been married for 20 years and have two children aged 13 and 16. Mel was brought to the US from Turkey at the age of 6 by his parents. In the mid 80's when Mel was 17 he stole a car. Mel was handled by the legal system and he paid the price. In 1996 a law was passed that an immigrant charged with a felony would be deported. I'm not familiar with the details of this law, but I believe it's called the IIRAIRA.

Unfortunately, immigration decided to pursue action against Mel for this past crime. Mel appeared before a judge and the immigration attorney and the judge ruled that Mel should stay in the US. The immigration attorney filed an appeal and another judge ruled against Mel and overruled the first judge's decision without ever having to look Mel in the face or hear his story.

It's appalling that a person who has never know a country other than the US, should ever be deported. But in this case the devastation goes further. Mel has an American wife and 2 American children who will be thrust in abject poverty along with losing their husband and father. The mental anguish that will be suffered by this family could be argued to be worse than if he were murdered.

As if all of this wasn't enough he and his family also will lose any rights to the SS and medicare payments he earned for his many years of working and supporting his family. In other words, after destroying his and his family's life they will rob him of his retirement, then send his family to depend on the govt welfare system.

You would have thought that the immigration attorney would have been relieved to not have to destroy good people's lives as a requirement to fulfill her duty. But I can only imagine the evil that must exist in one's heart to have taken it upon them self to appeal the judges decision.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       02-17-2011, 10:09 AM Reply   
That's a very sad story, especially considering that illegal aliens are arrested and released back into the community every day!! And I don't understand how they can pass laws and make them retroactive, so that, in effect, he's being deported for violating a law that didn't exist at the time that he committed the crime. I'm assuming Mel is a legal immigrant. Is that the case? If so, what is his status? Is he a citizen?
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       02-17-2011, 10:20 AM Reply   
Mel is a legal immigrant with a green card. He regrets not going forth and getting his citizenship, but his status is legal. And he has been working at the same job with a large software firm for the three years I've known him.

I've written a letter to the local newspaper columnist who tackles these sorts of social injustices on a regular basis. He has responded to me with an initial inquiry. I also sent an email to my representative. And I figured, what the heck and sent a letter to the White House.

He is going to file an appeal of the appeal but his current status is such that immigration can grab him and send him back to Turkey at anytime. The guy can barely even speak the native Turkish language as you can imagine. It would nice if Turkey told the US that he's a US citizen and they wouldn't take him. But that's a pipedream. I even wonder if some large public spectacle like a petition drive might make things worse for him.
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       02-17-2011, 11:53 AM Reply   
Thats usually what happens with poorly written laws. They have harsh unintended consequences. It would be nice if people could use a little common sense.

Mel got lucky you are his landlord. I am sure you will fight hard for him. Good luck.
Old    Brett W (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       02-17-2011, 12:44 PM Reply   
Why would the immigration attorney appeal and push for this? Do they get paid per win or something? He's an example of why so many people hate attorneys.

It sucks to see laws like this applied with no common sense. It obviously wasn't written very thoughtfully, taking these kinds of circumstances into account.

On the other side, you're right it's too bad the guy didn't become a citizen. That was just plain stupid, especially after all these years.

I hope things work out for him. That really sucks.
Old    E Double U (three6ty)      Join Date: Feb 2004       02-17-2011, 1:28 PM Reply   
I assume he got married int he USA. I don't know the laws all that great but doesn't that make him a US Citizen by marrying a US Citizen.
What are the laws around marrying a US citizen in the USA.

I hope it all works out for him.

I am also a little confused as to why the immigration attorney would go thru the trouble to seek a new hearing with a different judge to get him booted. Is there something else going on that you may not know?
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       02-17-2011, 1:40 PM Reply   
That's what I was thinking. I wonder if there is more to this. Our Immigration Service is obviously stretched really thin. I find it odd that this person has enough time on her hands to go after this guy in the first place, but to then appeal a ruling while millions are sneaking into the country illegally from all directions. Something isn't adding up. That being said, it is a government-run organization and things seldom "add up" when it comes to operating in an efficient manner.
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       02-17-2011, 1:58 PM Reply   
It seriously disgusts me what our govt wastes their time on, meanwhile the real problems fester out of control. Fiddling while Rome burns...

But anyway, how is that homeless guy with the Golden Voice doing these days??

Last edited by trace; 02-17-2011 at 2:05 PM.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       02-17-2011, 2:24 PM Reply   
When you see something where the govt is treating people like we live in a third world country, I think it's natural to think there must be more to it. I also think Brett might be on to something with the comment about them "being paid to win". Prosecutors value win vs loss numbers like athletes value trophies.

I can't tell you his past with any kind of absolute certainty. But his character in dealing with me for the last 3 years has led to no doubts in my mind about him being a honest good hearted person and a responsible family man. In telling me his story he stated that this one incident was the only time he had been in trouble with the law.

He had traveled to Turkey to visit relatives once before and after the 1996 law. The first time he went through immigration with no incident. The second time there was a red flag raised regarding his status but nothing was done. It appears that the red flag precipitated something in the system that ultimately got immigration interested in him. If it turns out that I can help him in any significant way I will get more history. I think I was just a bit stunned in listening to his story and didn't really feel the need to quiz him.

EDouble U, marrying a US citizen does make it easier to get a green card and ultimately your citizenship, but it doesn't offer much more protection than that.

Paul, thanks for the kind words.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-17-2011, 4:13 PM Reply   
I've been to Turkey a couple of times, a real crap hole, IMO.
Old    Cory D (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       02-17-2011, 5:01 PM Reply   
This is why we need less laws. Roll things back and follow the Constitution along with some common sense. This guy sounds like a productive member of society. We works, pays taxes, supports his family, pays rent to you, who pays taxes, etc.

In my experience knowing friends who have got caught up in "the system" for stupid things done when younger our government will never let anything go. It's all about keeping people down. One mistake and you're done. Your life is ruined. They slap tax after tax on you, take away more of your freedoms than they do the rest of us, keep you out of work, poor, and unable to better yourself. This is why I dislike out government. Seems like most people in government have an "us vs. them" mentality. Bottom line is they need to leave people alone.
Old    McGavin (Shooter)      Join Date: Apr 2010       02-17-2011, 5:53 PM Reply   
I agree that this story sound fishy, maybe your once car thief tenant is not being 100% truthful. I have seen people deported for much less, but it is normally immediately after they are released from custody. I'm not one of those people that hate illegal immigrant, but I think ANY illegal immigrant that commits a crime, especially a felony should be booted.
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-17-2011, 7:13 PM Reply   
I bet there's more to the story.
Old    SamIngram            02-18-2011, 7:22 AM Reply   
Questions...

How do you get and maintain a greencard with a felony of any kind?

Who in their right mind would go through the process of getting a green card, them become eligible for citizenship and not follow through?
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       02-18-2011, 7:31 AM Reply   
I bet he is just trying to get out of paying you rent.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       02-18-2011, 7:42 AM Reply   
This really boils down to... "are the facts simply as stated" and not so much "why get a green card and not become a citizen". My personal feeling is that anyone brought here as a child should not be treated as an alien, illegal or not as an adult. It strikes me as some kind of retroactive child abuse.

Shooter, your statement is curious. So you don't think illegal aliens should be booted unless they commit a crime? And yet you don't believe that children who only know America should have any special protections? That IMO is an odd mix of both left and right thinking.

And lastly I don't have any reason to believe he's ever been an illegal alien. His story about being brought here as a child also seems pausible as his speech and characteristics that one would judge someone are consistant with him being an American. If I end up being able to help him I'm going to read the judge's summary, which will lay to rest all the questions regarding the whole story.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       02-18-2011, 7:49 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by psudy View Post
I bet he is just trying to get out of paying you rent.
Anything is possible. After three years of being reliable tenants it doesn't point to that. When they met with us it was to tell us they were moving out into a cheaper apartmentand explain the situation. We told them to stay and to pay us the same as the apartment until there was some resolution. At no time was there any request from them on reducing the rent. There were just giving us notice.

And the story isn't out of the blue. I was aware of their problems with immigration in 2009 when they were preparing for the hearing before the judge that they ended up winning.
Old    Adam Curtis (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       02-18-2011, 7:57 AM Reply   
I'm gonna have to agree with , the whole story sounds fishy. I would bet money your tenant is not being 100% honest with you. The whole thing seems very random to me...first trying to deport a guy who commited a felony so long ago, then the re-trial???
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       02-18-2011, 8:00 AM Reply   
I was actually joking with that statement. Seems like a big story just to get out of rent.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       02-18-2011, 8:25 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by acurtis_ttu View Post
I would bet money your tenant is not being 100% honest with you. The whole thing seems very random to me...first trying to deport a guy who commited a felony so long ago, then the re-trial???
100% honesty is pretty rare. I would be willing to bet he's not 100% forthcoming. For example, he may be not telling me about ignoring filing requirements or due dates wrt paperwork. I wouldn't be surprised if he just assumed they would never go after someone here since the age of 6.

The fact is that we can speculate just about anything. What's significant is that there is universal disbelief that the govt would do this if there isn't more to the story. So the real issue is... would they?
Old    Brett W (brettw)      Join Date: Jul 2007       02-18-2011, 8:44 AM Reply   
Rather than not getting the whole story, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised that this is just about some a-hole attorney who doesn't want to lose a case. It wouldn't be the 1st time some attorney has absolutely no common sense or compassion and can only see 'the law' and it being a strictly black or white issue.
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       02-18-2011, 8:54 AM Reply   
Unfortunately, it seems that most prosecutors, cops, forensics labs, etc view convictions as feathers in their hats, regardless of merit. Most lawyers are totally devoid of compassion anyway.
Old    A. P. (bigdad)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-18-2011, 9:13 AM Reply   
All crimes committed as a juvenile are sealed and inadmissible once they turn 18. Only exception is if they were tried as an adult - stealing a car... I highly doubt he was charged as an adult.

There is more to the story he isn't telling you.
Old    McGavin (Shooter)      Join Date: Apr 2010       02-18-2011, 10:28 AM Reply   
I feel compelled to give my unusual perspective on immigration. I'm a cop for a city in California that has a very high illegal population (1/8 illegal hispanic would be my guess). During my career, our politicians have declared us a "rule of law city" causing a lot of unnecessary tension from both sides. On one side, I see many hard working law-abiding respectful illegals just trying to live a better life. During hard economic times, it is easy to unfairly portray these immigrants as the enemy. On the other side, I see a population that has technically violated US law just by being here. Although many of them work hard doing jobs Americans do not want to do, they do not pay taxes on their income and some (emphasize some) are a drain on society.

In a nut shell, I do not feel the government should be searching for illegals like some form of Gestapo. I do feel we need to securer our boarders and must deport ANY non-citizen (illegal or not) who wrongfully takes advantage of the opportunity given to live in our country. I also feel we should not supply any finically support to any non-citizen.

So lets come back to your friend....given the sketchy information I have, I do feel sorry for his wife and kids, but don't feel any compassion for him. This is a 40 year-old man who was given the privilege of living in America most of his life. He committed a somewhat serious crime as a juvenile and never cared enough for this country or his family to bother becoming a citizen. I think he has been given multiple chances. What do you think they do to car thieves in Turkey?

Although cops do have some discretion, (we call it letter of the law vs. spirit of the law) laws must be somewhat black and white or you could find a excuse to commit any wrong doing. Should we not deport illegals who have committed a crime, but are "turning their life around"? What if they are married? What about any illegal with kids? Who gets a pass, who takes advantage of the system and where do you draw the line?

I don't know this man or all the facts, but my guess is that he committed a crime in 2009 and his Green Card is being revoked. The only reason he wasn't kicked immediately is because we have too much compassion. Trace, my compassion has been taken advantage of too many time. Don't pretend to understand what we do until you have given CPR on a dead baby, interviewed and arrested a child molester or had to strap on a gun every day knowing you may kill or be killed at some point in your carer.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       02-18-2011, 10:58 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooter View Post
So lets come back to your friend....given the sketchy information I have, I do feel sorry for his wife and kids, but don't feel any compassion for him. This is a 40 year-old man who was given the privilege of living in America most of his life. He committed a somewhat serious crime as a juvenile and never cared enough for this country or his family to bother becoming a citizen.
There is no logical distinction between being forced/privileged to be an American either by birth or being brought here by your parents as a child. It strikes me as immoral to treat a child raised in America as a foreigner with no more rights than someone who came here as an adult.

Lots of juveniles commit serious crimes and don't think about this country or their parents. Why shouldn't those born in America get the same punishment? This sounds like an empty argument to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooter View Post
I think he has been given multiple chances. What do you think they do to car thieves in Turkey?
Maybe he hasn't been given multiple chances. It seems like your disbelief that the story is close to face value causes you to deny the posibility that the truth may be the US govt is simply commiting an atrocity.

And what about car thieves in Turkey? Are you suggesting that we should punish them the same here? Are you seriously suggesting I should consider this as an argument? Do you beat your prisoners in private and tell them it's not as bad as they would get in Turkey? Or is this simply something that you would hold over the head of a child brought here from Turkey to make sure he understood he was less a person than a real American?

Regardless, the full story may be available to me soon as he is going to send me a copy of both the original judge's decision and the appeal court decision.
Old    McGavin (Shooter)      Join Date: Apr 2010       02-18-2011, 11:27 AM Reply   
First off, let me say that I should have proofread my post better (just incase there're any grammar police out there).

"There is no logical distinction between being forced/privileged to be an American either by birth or being brought here by your parents as a child. It strikes me as immoral to treat a child raised in America as a foreigner with no more rights than someone who came here as an adult."

Do we give every child brought to the US citizenship? What age will be the cut off? That is for the US law maker and voter to decide.

"and what about car thieves in Turkey? Are you suggesting that we should punish them the same here?"

My point here is that we live in a cruel world. Our US legal system has much more compassion than the rest of the world.

You sound like a good guy John and I wish I had the same view of the world as you. This guy's family probably deserve another chance. Unfortunately I have seen many people take advantage of chances.

Just curious, how will you view this if you find out he has lied and is now taking advantage of your extreme generosity?
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       02-18-2011, 11:51 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooter View Post
Do we give every child brought to the US citizenship? What age will be the cut off? That is for the US law maker and voter to decide.
That's an extremely important question and very difficult to answer. However, I'm firmly on the side of saying that being here since six years old fits squarely in the column of giving them giving them citizenship, or at the minimum extra consideration.

There actually is/was a current debate over a bill to give kids brought here better opportunity to an easier path to citizenship. I'm not sure what's going on because the issue seemed to have disappeared from the media lately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooter View Post
Just curious, how will you view this if you find out he has lied and is now taking advantage of your extreme generosity?
I will feel good that I tried to help and sorry for his family. It will need to be something more significant than a lapse of responsibility of filing paperwork for me to be disappointed.

And the bottom line is that my generosity is not entirely altruistic. Because of my job I don't have the time to work on the house preparing it for rental right now. Because they take very good care of it and it will still be generating income, I don't really consider it to be that generous. I have a couple friends that rent out houses and the horror stories of people not paying and trashing the home make me feel lucky that my tenants have been so reliable for the last 3 years.
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       02-18-2011, 11:59 AM Reply   
I have no doubt that being a cop is a hard job at times. The cops I know get paid pretty well, though, and there are considerably worse jobs that pay a lot less. I actually said lawyers have no compassion, but if you want to include cops too, I guess you would know better than I.

Do you disagree that cops and prosecutors often have a tendency to focus on "winning" a conviction, versus focusing on finding the truth?
Old    McGavin (Shooter)      Join Date: Apr 2010       02-18-2011, 1:40 PM Reply   
Trace,

I do agree that our legal system is flawed and I will admit that there are a few bad cops out there. Many times the "focus on winning" means many good cases don't get prosecuted due to the fear of losing. I honestly feel very few innocent people go to jail or in this case are deported. I personally don't want to see anyone punished for a crime they didn't commit. First a cop has to have enough evidence to justify an arrest and then a prosecutor has to show beyond a reasonable doubt that person is guilty. Throw in limited staffing, shady tactics often used by defense attorneys and jail overcrowding and its pretty hard to lock up even the guilty ones. Even when you get a conviction, it is normally a very mild sentence including Parole, Probation or fines.

This scenario is especially scary when you get into violent crimes like murder & rape. You don't need to go further than Jaycee Dugard or OJ Simpson to see how our legal system has failed and can be too "compassionate".

My job does pay well and it can be rewarding. I feel very luck to do what I do. I will tell you that I have had other jobs and being a officer is the most difficult work I have done. I feel I earn my pay check and will quit the day the politicians take my pay & pension. I normally don't like telling people I'm a cop off-duty because they think I'm out to bust them or they tell me about the time they got a ticket. Writing tickets is just a small part of the job.
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       02-18-2011, 2:48 PM Reply   
That is very insightful, and you make a good point regarding the converse problem of "fear of losing".

I too believe the truth of this situation is not exactly as our benevolent friend John has been told.
Old    Train (ttrigo)      Join Date: Dec 2004       02-18-2011, 4:30 PM Reply   
he has had 22 years or so to become a citizen. I consider myself a procrastinator, but that is a quite a while to put off doing something.
I do feel our govt spends too much time and money deporting the wrong kind of "criminals" in our country. take your friend here. he was pretty much a contributing member of society, and does not seem to be a burden on any of us whatsoever. yet he is going to be deported because of a crime he committed 20 years ago? and then the case of the illegal alien ahole who murdered Chandra Levy. he had been arrested multiple times, and yet was never deported. now he gets to spend the rest of his life behind bars, getting better healtcare than most american citizens. its BS big time.

I would look into being a "sponsor" for your friend, if it is not too late.
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       02-19-2011, 10:54 AM Reply   
Yea Kick out a productive working member of America and pay Tax payer money to Keep this one!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHoAuk76fT8
Old    Chris Butler (xistential)      Join Date: Jul 2007       02-20-2011, 3:41 AM Reply   
Interesting story John. I do not want to pass judgement until we hear all the facts but it does seem a bit odd that they are pursuing him over something so old. It seems like maybe he did something that red flagged it?? And I stress, maybe. As far as the citizenship goes when would he have got his green card and how long would he have to wait until he could apply for citizenship?? And as a matter of interest what happened to the parents that brought him to the US initially?It might not be that he has put it off for 22 years. My sister in law and her 2 kids and husband only became eligible to apply 10 years after having their green cards and even then they only did the husbands and the son (the daughter was born in the US). The reason she didn't do hers is because they can't afford it.Simple as that. And if you are struggling and you have a green card,are working,paying taxes and everything is legit maybe you put it off, as putting food on the table and your kids thru college takes preference. For me the citizenship would be the number one priority but people are different..... Who knows? I hope if he is legit it works out for him. Big,bullying,overbearing governments failing us at every turn so instead concentrate on winning little immigration battles to show their loyal subjects that "they take immigration very seriously indeed" Pr!cks.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-04-2011, 12:38 PM Reply   
There is a petition online now for my friend Mel. He is currently in the hands of immigration. The petition answers all the unanswered questions when I originally posted this thread. I've signed it and if any of you are so inclined to help this family please read the petition and consider signing it.

http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/BringMelbackhome/
Old    Chris Butler (xistential)      Join Date: Jul 2007       05-05-2011, 10:25 AM Reply   
John, something to bear in mind. I was told that internet petitions are not really accepted/recognized in the world of "officialdom". I signed it but it is something to bear in mind. They probably expect you to go door to door and obtain them manually?
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-05-2011, 11:02 AM Reply   
Chris, I know what you're saying and I agree. I really don't have high hopes for this avenue, but his wife told me about it and I'm trying to do anything help. I appreciate you taking the time.
Old    Justin (jerasu98)      Join Date: Aug 2005       05-05-2011, 6:56 PM Reply   
The law was passed in the 90's so it shouldn't apply to your friend as he was arrested before the law was passed. Plus that is just one CIMT. Two are required for removal proceedings. LAPR cards ("green cards") have always been meant to be temporary, with the cardholder eventually becoming a citizen. I have friends parents get their citizenship because they were afraid of being removed from the US. I have also dealt with people that have lived here as a permanent residents for 15 plus years get deported. They thought because they had family or because they lived here for so long they were untouchable. Legal residents don't have all the rights that citizens have although they may think they do. That's my take on the information provided to us.
Old    Joe Umali (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       05-06-2011, 2:43 AM Reply   
i haven't read all the posts here but even if he wanted to become a citizen, he would've been denied due to the felony, right? either way, my question is; the felony took place way before the law was passed. they can only apply the law to felons after the law was passed, right?

but yeah, i agree w/ some of the posts above that there has to be more to the story.
Old    McGavin (Shooter)      Join Date: Apr 2010       05-06-2011, 9:19 AM Reply   
It's funny how the petition reads nothing like your original posts. No mention of the auto theft, yet it says he was busted picking up a prostitute and involved in unemployment fraud (felony) only 6 years ago. It makes me wonder what else is being left out. I still don't feel sorry for Melih, but I do feel sorry for his family that he has let down. In the long run my opinion means nothing.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-06-2011, 9:34 AM Reply   
Yes, it doesn't say it but it implies that he did something....

Quote:
When Melih was a young man, he chose to hang with the wrong crowd and did time for it.
I feel sorry for anyone who has no country to call his own.
Old    McGavin (Shooter)      Join Date: Apr 2010       05-06-2011, 10:57 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
I feel sorry for anyone who has no country to call his own.
Then you feel sorry for over 13 million illegal immigrants. Many of them have children who are US citizens and don't commit crime.

http://www.fairus.org/site/News2?pag...s_iv_ctrl=1007
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       05-06-2011, 11:06 AM Reply   
I feel sorry for any child who grows up in this country and has no rights. That would be correct. All you have to do is imagine yourself being in this country from virtually the beginning of your memories and facing the prospect as an adult of being exported and you should IMO feel the same.

If they were to propose legislation to the affect of giving those brought here as small children enhanced rights I would support it. Need any more info on my personal beliefs?

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