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Old    Da MOOSE (da_moose)      Join Date: Feb 2004       03-11-2011, 7:30 PM Reply   
Now every body tells me solars too much??? Well im sending $80 a week on gas ,,,thats over $4000 a year on gas x's 10 years at todays price (carlsbad tody $4.19 for reg.????}thats over $40,000 +in the next 10 years
how much does it cost to solarise a house ??? Not $40,000 & clean energy for 25 years + or simple "solor farm"{saw one off da 5 on the north bound side in san claminte just past pico.
If we cut are oil by just 5% or more ,,,that will blow there minds {and we need a new industry} jobs
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       03-12-2011, 5:25 AM Reply   
Maybe we can start by shutting down some more oil well drilling . This country has enough oil to last for hundreds of years but the libs have blocked it. You haven't seen anything yet if cap and trade gets passed. Welcome to the Obama nation.
Old    Big D (bigdtx)      Join Date: Feb 2005       03-12-2011, 5:47 AM Reply   
So Obama caused gas prices to jump by 60 cents a gallon in the last 30 days? Genius.
Old    Justin Ward (JDubs)      Join Date: Mar 2010       03-12-2011, 7:07 AM Reply   
HaHa....Big that's exactly what the left said about Bush the last time gas was this high. But for some reason everyone is just shocked if you say something is Obama's fault. Remember, it use to be funny and cool to make fun of Bush. If anyone blames anything on Obama they are an idiot and a racist. I don't know its just sad and at the same time funny to me.
Old    Cory D (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       03-12-2011, 7:48 AM Reply   
Obama and his tree-hugging cronies will keep prices high by not allowing companies to build more refineries. We need more refining capacity first, and after that we need to allowing drilling on US soil and off our coasts. It's profitable, the oil companies pay for permits, they get taxed, and production is closer to home + more production means lower prices for all of us.

Obama and his cronies do have an affect on the current price spike. It's called an interventionist foreign policy. They carried on just like the neocons. Now it's hurting us once again. The flip side is all the taxes we have to pay, make it harder for people to afford the high fuel prices. The taxes to support our interventionist foreign policy, the taxes to support the unconstitutional TSA, the taxes to support all the entitlement programs, etc. Tax me less and fuel costs affect me less. Pretty simple.

At the end of the day if you want to use less fuel get a job closer to home, or move closer to work. If that's not financially possible, get a small motorcycle and enjoy 50+ MPG. Ride whenever there's not snow or ice on the ground. Turn your heat down to 55*-60* in the winter. If your electricity comes from oil fired plants, always turn devices off when not in use, don't buy big screen TVs and monster sound systems, don't use lights when not necessary, etc.

Fact is most Americans don't want to do these things as they're seen as inconvenient or uncomfortable. That's fine, everyone pays for what they can afford and budgets as they see fit. That's how a free market works. At the end of the day we're all some of the worst offenders. We all burn hundreds (thousands?) of gallons a year for no good reason. If you really want to stick it to them, stop using your boats. Not a popular option, eh? I'll just keep doing what I do since everything I enjoy doing involves burning gas.
Old    Da MOOSE (da_moose)      Join Date: Feb 2004       03-12-2011, 8:40 AM Reply   
how coool would it be if there were a fat solar farm right on the "White House Lawn" that will show them,Where doing something about it ,instead of just taking it .
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       03-12-2011, 8:46 AM Reply   
To think that more oil drilling on US soil is going to result in lower prices is asinine.

Michael, where is your evidence that the "US has enough oil to last hundreds of years"?

Cory, billions of our tax dollars also go to subsidies for...The Oil Companies!!! How comforting to know that companies that are making record profits need subsidies from the US govt.

The US has this attitude, "Let's not work towards an alternative to a gasoline engine, let's just keep drilling wells". What's wrong with some American innovation?
Old    Cory D (cadunkle)      Join Date: Jul 2009       03-12-2011, 9:52 AM Reply   
Jeremy, those subisides definitely need to stop. As do the subsidies on corn growing, and distilling it into ethanol. The regulations requiring ehtanol blend and other special blend fuels need to stop too.

As for oil in the States... There's plenty to last hundreds of years... But most of that is nasty oil shale that you can't just pump out of the ground. With current extraction technology it's not profitable to go after it unless prices go way up. If prices get above $5/gal and stay there, you might see come oil companies going after oil shale and trying to make extracting that oil profitable.

As for American innovation to reduce oil use in transportation... Look at all the foreign cars Americans are buying. There's no innovation if there's no demand for it. Americans aren't buying a lot of American cars, so the American car companies don't have a lot of profit to spend on R&D into alternatives to gasoline powered vehicles. Look at GM and Mopar... Subsidized by government (you and me) and rewarded for failure. Ford was punished for doing what they had to do in order to not go under. Rewarding bad management results in more of it.

That being said, these electric prototypes and such seem to be getting attention lately. The problem is, Obama is his tree hugging cronies are fighting against coal power. We have plenty of coal in this country, and in my opinion we should be building a lot more nuclear plants. Fighting coal and nuclear just makes electric vehicles make less sense if they ever do become viable and cost effective. Natural gas is another option as this country is fairly rich in natural gas.
Old    Big D (bigdtx)      Join Date: Feb 2005       03-12-2011, 3:48 PM Reply   
This is a great scam - to be a conservative you need to be against all government intervention in the free market. And you also need to be against unions.

However the largest and most profitable corporations in this country are the most subsidized and benefit the most from tax breaks and government contracts.

They turn you against yourself and watch you fight it out while they eliminate your job and buy another poitician.
Old    Matt (duramat)      Join Date: Feb 2008       03-12-2011, 6:51 PM Reply   
Id rather get my oil from ANWAR than Maracaibo, just me.

I say drill it.
Old    Jo Shmoe (joeshmoe)      Join Date: Jan 2003       03-12-2011, 8:20 PM Reply   
"are the most subsidized and benefit the most from tax breaks and government contracts"
I believe you can add to this cost the billions and billions(more like trillions) We pay to have our military "protect" our oil interests in the middle east.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       03-13-2011, 10:13 AM Reply   
The military is no where near the big money as the liberal social contract programs. Two programs alone are almost 60% of the US budget. Those two are social security and medicare. Don't even try to talk about the military money. Besides, that is one of the actual things the military is supposed to do. That is provide for our national defense.

Tell you what, if you don't want to be part of the military protecting our "interests" then you are more than welcome to stop using oil right now.

On the businesses getting tax breaks, you do realize that many states try and attract businesses to come to their states by offering tax breaks right? You also realize that the federal tax structure rewards businesses with lower taxes if they invest their money into equipment or other investments. All of these things you are complaining about are actually done to provide YOU with a job.

On the unions, there are good unions and bad unions. Unions are usually formed to give the workers a share in the company profits or to be able to withstand political winds (police/ fire). Unfortunately, many unions are not willing to be flexible enough when times are down. If you want to share in the profits then you have to be willing to share in the company failure. You can also substitute company failure with government failure. You can not keep getting pay increases when the tax base is failing. I just don't understand peoples lack of understanding of cause and effect. Less money coming in = less money for employees.
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       03-13-2011, 10:35 AM Reply   
Now what? $5.00 of course. Welcome to the rest of the world.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       03-13-2011, 11:42 AM Reply   
rest of the world has tax built into their gas. It costs the same no matter where you go for the oil. The tax structures are completely different.
Old    Jo Shmoe (joeshmoe)      Join Date: Jan 2003       03-13-2011, 11:58 AM Reply   
newsflash, Someone else, the military is a social program. It is the biggest employer in the United States, just think of it as Workfare, sorta like welfare, but someone actually gets a set of job duties and collects a paycheck(you know, share the wealth)
Tell you what, America can protect our interests, a lot cheaper without going in and trying to overthrow governments. Everyone has been taking pay cuts these last several years Except the military, they have continued to get pay increases when everybody else has been cutting back and doing more with less. Not the military, they have been doing more with more, and they have a salary scale, where they don't even have to do anything extra and they get paid more. They get paid more money for doing the same exact job they did the year before, why should they get paid more for doing the exact job a younger person does? You don't even have to graduate from college, all you have to do is go in the military, work 28 years and you will get paid about $60,000(not bad for not ever graduating from a university).
Social security and medicare are two systems that people pay into their entire lives they should get the money, heck, if you cut anyone out that has not paid into the programs, it probably would become solvent.
your words delta"You can not keep getting pay increases when the tax base is failing" yet the military has received a pay raise for the last four years, why is that? I just don't understand peoples lack of understanding of cause and effect. Less money coming in = less money for employees.
And now that the economy is on the rebound-The republicans want to kill the unions? There is nothing dumber than a poor republican!
Ain't going to be much wakeboarding if this crap keeps up! hahahahahahahahaha
Old    Da MOOSE (da_moose)      Join Date: Feb 2004       03-13-2011, 5:15 PM Reply   
Just think when thay put a solar farm ,out on the "White House " lawn,,,It can be called "Da Green House"
Hey Easter egg hunt under the solar farm,,,Welcome to "Farm Town"
Old    Jason G (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       03-14-2011, 5:34 AM Reply   
We are a convienence driven society. Business and government will ALWAYS take advantage of that. Do you really think that some "ALTERNATIVE" power source is gonna make things cheaper? Why would someone sell a product cheaper to a society willing to pay a premium? If you could power your car on rainbows, someone would figure out how to charge you $4\gal for them!

Diesel fuel was ALWAYS cheaper than gas my entire life. I can remember times when it was almost 50% less. However, as soon as the engine tech becomes truly usable for the masses (not loud and slow) the fuel cost goes up. Yes, I know it has more to do with dereg to MX but the point is that there is no free lunch and never will be.

If we all go to electric cars, guess whats going to happen to the cost of electricity?

The ONLY way to stop paying is to stop using, or stay one step ahead of the man by being early adopters\inventors of the next big thing.
Old    Adam R (wakecumberland)      Join Date: Oct 2007       03-14-2011, 6:25 AM Reply   
Da Moose, how does solarizing your house save you on gas?
Old    Dave (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-14-2011, 9:10 AM Reply   
Yep gas is over $4 ,now what???

Nothing, your now paying close to what everyone else in the world pays!
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       03-14-2011, 9:39 AM Reply   
So that makes it ok? Look up the average commute in Europe compared to the US.

and now what?? We are going to feel it a lot more places than the gas pump. Better start saving for Milk.
Old    Dave (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-14-2011, 9:57 AM Reply   
Didn't say it makes it ok. The majority of the Oil that goes to the US is from Canada yet because the US has the refineraries we pay more for our own fuel when it comes back across the line....that ain't right. Your now paying close to what we have always paid.

A high number of European vehicles are diesel due to the fact that they get better mileage yet North America still keeps pushing gas gusling motors so as a consumer you use more gas.
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       03-14-2011, 10:09 AM Reply   
You need to thank your government for that. About 1/3 of your fuel cost is tax. You didn't think free health care was....free, did you?
Old    SamIngram            03-14-2011, 11:38 AM Reply   
President Carter, oops, I mean Obama's Secretary of Energy has said numerous times that we have to get gas prices here as high as they are in Europe.

STEVEN CHU: “Somehow We Have To Figure Out How To Boost The Price Of Gasoline To The Levels In Europe.” (“Times Tough For Energy Overhaul,” The Wall Street Journal, 12/12/08)

Also see the Heritage Article on Carter's, I mean Obama's energy policy...

I think this guy had the real answer..



and this crazy genius had the MPG answer, 51 mpg and 0-60 in less than 6 Seconds!

Old    Chris Butler (xistential)      Join Date: Jul 2007       03-14-2011, 11:49 AM Reply   
"A high number of European vehicles are diesel due to the fact that they get better mileage"

So?? As somebody pointed out Diesel has ALWAYS been cheaper. Not anymore. More people going for diesel cars so diesel now cost more than gas. Europe is no different. It is about $8 a gallon for gas and about $8.50 for diesel in the UK and if EVERYBODY had to switch to Diesel tomorrow that would probably rise to about $12. And about 80% of the price in the UK is tax. They will screw us every which way they can. If everybody could, and did, ditch their cars tomorrow and start cycling they would find a way to tax the hell out of that as well.

The people that were so instrumental in leading us to the abyss should not be the ones we look to to lead us back from it.
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       03-14-2011, 11:54 AM Reply   
^ full article from the Fiero
http://www.circletrack.com/enginetec...ine/index.html
Old    SamIngram            03-14-2011, 12:06 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidekicknicholas View Post
I wonder if Crane Cams still plans to introduce the retrofit kit... I would buy one...
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       03-14-2011, 12:20 PM Reply   
"Mr. Obama said Sunday that a heightened gas tax would be a "mistake" because it would put "additional burdens on American families right now.""

My god. He actually did something smart.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       03-15-2011, 10:24 AM Reply   
Jo, you don't even know what you are talking about. First, that old line about nothing dumber than a poor Republican line is pretty funny coming from a leftist. What that line tells me the leftist are only in it for themselves regardless of the consequences. Sometimes people have to understand the way things really work and realize the place they carved out. Leftist always call out for others to give except when they are the ones not doing it. It is not Republicans are wanting to bust the union. It is someone is stepping up and seeing the parts that are bull crap and finally doing something about it. If the ends don't meet, then something needs to happen. It is simple math. Just like with Bush, the leftist are only bitching because a Republican is doing something. Don't hear you and others bitching about Democrats doing the same thing in Colorado and what Jerry Brown is getting ready to do in California. That tells me and others, yet again that it is only about the politics and not about being honest. Being intellectually honest does not seem to be a leftists trait.

On the military. The military will not take just everyone. You can actually to be to stupid and lazy to get in the military. The military is one of the only things the federal government should have. Arguing that it is welfare is pretty lame. I would love to see people on welfare work one tenth as hard as anyone in the military. They would be off of it in a heart beat. You complain about pay raises for them. If you want a pay raise, you too can go live in the middle east and get shot at and you too can collect combat pay. A few years ago leftists were arguing that military had many service people living in poverty and now you are telling me that they make too much money? Which is it. Again I tell you that you don't know what you are talking about because a person in the military for 28 years is not doing the same thing as a "young" person. If you don't have what it takes to make rank, you are retired. Period. In California, you make $60,000 a year and you are just past that point where you get letters from the state saying you are eligible for assistance as a family.
Old    SamIngram            03-15-2011, 10:31 AM Reply   
Nothing to do with gas prices, but more with the above post:

Ludwig von Mises to Ayn Rand, "Atlas Shrugged is not merely a novel. It is also (or may I say: first of all) a cogent analysis of the evils that plague our society, a substantiated rejection of the ideology of our self-styled "intellectuals" and a pitiless unmasking of the insincerity of the policies adopted by governments and political parties... You have the courage to tell the masses what no politician told them: you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the efforts of men who are better than you."
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       03-15-2011, 10:35 AM Reply   
Quote:
I would love to see people on welfare work one tenth as hard as anyone in the military.
Amen. I would love to see a program for welfare/unemployment where someone who until now gets $XXX for doing next to nothing (usually - not always) - would get 1/2 that for just "looking for jobs" and being "a bum" but could receive the full $XXX doing odd jobs/whatever work for a local/state/federal government.

They wouldn't have to be special jobs - just stuff that could use being done but no one has the time/wants to pay someone -- the work they did during the depression to get people going on something - cleaning up parks, litter pickup, etc etc etc
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       03-15-2011, 12:28 PM Reply   
Quote:
You have the courage to tell the masses what no politician told them
Who doesn't have the courage to tell the masses what a politician won't.
Old    Jo Shmoe (joeshmoe)      Join Date: Jan 2003       03-15-2011, 4:09 PM Reply   
Someone Else, you don't know what you are talking about, its not about being left, right, conservative or liberal, its about an attack on working class America. Making the middle class pay for wall streets bailouts and then paying million dollar bonuses to the rich! Cut down the middle class and you cut down America. Get your head out of the sand and quit drinking the cool-aid, being intellectually dishonest is a republican trait, not a democratic attribute.

"You can actually to be to stupid and lazy to get in the military" wtf?

It is not hard to get into the military. Don't try the justify their pay by saying it's difficult to get into. The military could easily cut their budget in half, while maintaining safety on our borders. I didn't say it was welfare, I said it was WORKFARE, they have to be assigned a duty, you know, dig a hole and fill it up, as long as they're working on something, they get paid. It is not hard to climb the ranks in the military either, all you have to do is follow the rules. I never argued that military pay was poverty a few years ago, what I said was that the military has gotten a raise every year for the last four years when you said "You can not keep getting pay increases when the tax base is failing" when, in fact the military has gotten pay raises every year. you know, less money coming in, less money for employees,( not the military), less money coming, spend more is their motto.
The military gets paid more money for doing the same exact job they did the year before, why should they get paid more for doing the exact job a younger person in the military does? You don't even have to graduate from college, all you have to do is go in the military, work 28 years and you will get paid about $60,000(not bad for not ever graduating from a university).

OK, Delta, let me slow down for you so you understand, a military person who has been working for 26 years gets $56,880 for a level E-7(this is without a college education) A younger military person who is an E-7 (no college) only gets only $31,648 This is for the same exact job at the same exact rank.
Now this pay might not seem outlandish, but keep in mind they get free room and board and free Health Care. Great socialistic program!

"I would love to see people on welfare work one tenth as hard as anyone in the military", I would like to see people on welfare do anything.
Old    SamIngram            03-15-2011, 4:36 PM Reply   
jo shmoe,
Have you been fired at while walking to work? Have you ever been fired at while sitting on the toilet? Have you ever tried to follow the rules, it isn't always easy. Have you ever been away from your family for two years or more? Have you ever had a co-worker die in your arms? Have you ever been forced to make a life or death decision in five seconds? seen someone die as as a result? and then be judged by someone who wasn't even there? based strictly on a book? and be held accountable for the decision you made? Have you ever smelled burning human flesh for a week and couldn't get the smell out of your skin for what seemed like months? Have you ever been sent to do a job and not be given any tools to do it with? your boss just says find the stuff you need when you get there?

I have done some of these things and my dad did them all. He still wakes up in cold sweat sometimes and can't sleep again for days. When he got home he was welcomed with picket signs and people calling him baby killer. All for $42K, the entire time he was there.
Old    SamIngram            03-15-2011, 4:51 PM Reply   
Back to the original topic:

In another thread I think Da Moose said this;


Quote:
Originally Posted by da_moose View Post
hey man i went to school to be a solar engineer 29 years ago {but iv been making boards for 36 years yeah i live da dream }, nobody talks about heating water ,do you know how much energy it takes to heat water????

electricity is the motor of your $500,000+ house

so whats the problem ??? its to much ? it don't work ?

$20,000 these days doesn't even get you a killer truck.

how about a big solar farm in "DEATH VALLY " ?
and now this thread. He obviously believes in solar energy. Did anyone else read this article?

Wahsington, DC reneges on committment to reimburse residents for solar panels

If I was one of those home owners and was counting on the reimbursement I would be very upset!

The truth is that we need to develop alternate forms of energy, Tesla new this a hundred years ago, but we also need to use our own natural resources. If we stopped buying our oil from overseas and relied strictly on our own supply it would boost the economy to a huge degree. It would also take away the majority of leverage the entire middle east has over us. At the current price levels we could easily use our own natural resources and get them in an environmentally friendly way. I wouldn't mind payin $4/gallon if the money went to American companies, American workers, and spent in the American economy. We could get out of the middle east too!
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       03-15-2011, 5:46 PM Reply   
^Same thing happened in FL, where people were to be reimbursed for installing energy efficient A/C.

http://www.gainesville.com/article/2...CLES/101119364
Old    Justin Ward (JDubs)      Join Date: Mar 2010       03-15-2011, 7:11 PM Reply   
Bottom line is, we can all talk about it till we are blue in the face, but at the end of the day we just have to pay whatever the price of gas is and deal with it.
Old    SamIngram            03-15-2011, 8:05 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDubs View Post
Bottom line is, we can all talk about it till we are blue in the face, but at the end of the day we just have to pay whatever the price of gas is and deal with it.
BS! That is not what my father's generation did and it is not what the greatest generation did either.

BTW, Tesla knew, not new...lol
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       03-15-2011, 9:01 PM Reply   
More diesel vehicles are coming and cheap algae bio diesel (among other bio's) in not far off either. So far there is no bio, only dino gasoline...
Old    Da MOOSE (da_moose)      Join Date: Feb 2004       03-15-2011, 10:39 PM Reply   
you see there Jdubs ~we dont have to take it ~and were taking it now ~~right ~~right...
Gotta Do something ~not tomorrow ~but NoW
like i said SOLARIZE the White House ~make a statement, Da Green House ~that could be done by the end of summer ~Solar so simple too ~not many moving parts ~No MELT DOWNS ~NO smoke ~and the Sun the same price in 2011 as 2039
ooooooh yeah Jobs ~anyone need work??? Or anyone have any real ways to cut our oil, real ways.

solar is sooo simple too,,,, this could be rolling in 30 days ,,,,but what 30 days will it be ????
Old    English (kristian)      Join Date: Nov 2002       03-16-2011, 4:34 AM Reply   
I try to stay away from the Political stuff but there's a lot of people opinions blaming one party in one country...... remember with all the problems in Libya, Egypt and that area that have occured in the past 4-5 months, fuel prices have sky rocketed all over the world. I'm paying close to $10 a gallon here in England. I've been all over the continent and its the same (even Turkey), Bahamas and Cuba were horrendous, headed to Australia in a week and its not much better there. My equipment from Japan (prayers go to them) costs more cause they're having to pay higher fuel prices to ship. Flight costs have shot up too.

Its a Global issue! And with the power fuel companies have now knowing how much we'll pay they'll take their time bringing it back down.

But another question: how come a european Ford Focus with a 2.0 Litre Engine does 48.6MPG where as american version only does 30MPG?
Old    Justin Ward (JDubs)      Join Date: Mar 2010       03-16-2011, 6:53 AM Reply   
Sam, I am a conservative Christian so I agree with MOST of the things you post on here. I also applaud your enthusiasm when it comes to wanting to do something. As I recall a few years ago gas was $4 a gallon. Nothing was done about it. You paid it and dealt with it. Gas prices went back down and then no one cared anymore. Now gas prices are back up and everyone is angry and blaming everyone else. So as we go through this second round of crazy high gas prices tell me what to do and I'll do it. But until someone comes up with a better idea than an over priced slow electric vehicle that doesn't last very long on a charge. I'm gonna just deal with it. Just like everyone else reading this forum.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       03-16-2011, 8:29 AM Reply   
^You could drive less. Make your next vehicle more fuel efficient. Prices go up. People cut back on fuel usage. Prices go down. It's the cycle of life.

Maybe you could reorient your thinking to the fact that gas is and has been really cheap and we've had it too good with being able to consume natural resources with wild abandon. The flip side of what Sam said is that those before us didn't give a crap about consumption or pollution. Now we do. That doesn't mean the end of the world. Just means the end of excess.

Think about it. You get a whole gallon of refined gasoline for $3-$4. That's seems cheap. Less work goes into making a gallon of milk and nobody complains that it's over $3 a gallon.
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       03-16-2011, 8:54 AM Reply   
"Less work goes into making a gallon of milk and nobody complains that it's over $3 a gallon. "

Oh BS! A few years ago when gas prices where high, the inflation in the wholesale markets went way up. Gas prices came back down, but the price at the checkout counter did not. Retailers ran on the assumption that we were used to it so they just maintained the prices. People still paid.
Now gas prices are going back up and its going to start all over again. I feed a family of four, and I already feel the pain in the pocket book.

High gas prices effect a lot more than just peoples driving habits.
Old    SamIngram            03-16-2011, 9:21 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by fly135 View Post
^You could drive less. Make your next vehicle more fuel efficient. Prices go up. People cut back on fuel usage. Prices go down. It's the cycle of life.

Maybe you could reorient your thinking to the fact that gas is and has been really cheap and we've had it too good with being able to consume natural resources with wild abandon. The flip side of what Sam said is that those before us didn't give a crap about consumption or pollution. Now we do. That doesn't mean the end of the world. Just means the end of excess.

Think about it. You get a whole gallon of refined gasoline for $3-$4. That's seems cheap. Less work goes into making a gallon of milk and nobody complains that it's over $3 a gallon.
CRAP, CRAP, and more CRAP!

We have our own supply of natural resources that we can use and not rely on any other country. What is the difference to the environment if we get the oil from under our ground versus the middle east? It's the same world environment. Anyone who thinks that global warming is real is absolutely so full of it, it's not even funny. Mother Nature is a badass and can take care of herself. Hell, the land around chernobyl was suppose to be uninhabitable for hundreds or even thousands of years, yet the deer and wolf population there is going like gangbusters.

These horses in the Chernobyl National Park look really crazy huh, with their 8 legs and all...


We need to elect someone with some common sense. Someone who will actually make a decision, versus sitting on the sidelines, someone who believes in American Exceptionalism not American Decline.

People want to compare us to Europe and the rest of the world, why? We are better than them, and history proves it. Why do we have to follow all the damn mistakes of Europe? I am better than that, we are better than that, our pedigree proves it. Screw the rest of the world, we continually beat the crap out of them in every war, and then we rebuild their morally lacking society and do it all over again. Now we have people bringing all their decrepit values here. In Katrina we looting galore, rape, murder, etc.. why? Because people think they are entitled to other people's stuff when they are not. We are building a society that thinks they deserve something and don't have to earn it.

My parents taught me to work for everything that I have, and then to give the excess to people who need it, and then to go ahead give more than my excess to other people.

We need to use our own natural resources, protect our own land and environment, and not build up the crap that surrounds this country.
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       03-16-2011, 9:25 AM Reply   
Look at the % of tax on a liter of gas in Europe, compared to the US. Thats why there is such a price disparity.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       03-16-2011, 10:56 AM Reply   
Sam, would you eat wild game killed around Chernobyl? Not only that, but that was 25 years ago and over a million cases cancer are directly tied to that accident. I agree that Mother Nature is a "bad ass", but it can take many decades many decades for Mother Nature to heal herself. We used to think it was okay to dump toxic waste into creeks and rivers, and look, many are still polluted to the point where you cannot safely enter the water or consume the fish that may inhabit the water. While the study of global warming may have some flaws, you are full of it if you believe that we can continue to pump pollutants into the air and not face any consequences.

You keep using that tired argument about all of our oil coming from the Middle East. Research how much we actually import from the Middle East.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       03-16-2011, 11:14 AM Reply   
Mother Nature doesn't give a crap about whether the Earth is suitable for habitation. Now screw the world... let's go start some wars with out superior morals and get that oil.
Old    SamIngram            03-16-2011, 12:55 PM Reply   
Yes, I would eat a deer from Chernobyl. The original statements made about Chernobyl was that it was going to be a waste land and that nothing could live there for thousands of years, but now there is a wild life refuge there and the animals show no signs of higher than normal radiation levels.

Also, millions of cancer cases were not caused by Chernobyl... read Assessing the disaster's effects on human health..

I don't care what the percentage of oil we get from the middle east, it should be zero, we have our own! The money could be used in our economy and it would not support the corrupt middle east.

Quote:
Today 11:14 AM
fly135
Mother Nature doesn't give a crap about whether the Earth is suitable for habitation. Now screw the world... let's go start some wars with out superior morals and get that oil.
You can't use that argument on me... I'm fourth generation military and don't think we should be anywhere, including Korea, Japan, the middle east, etc...
Old    Adam R (wakecumberland)      Join Date: Oct 2007       03-16-2011, 1:02 PM Reply   
Da Moose.....you still havent answered how solar panels are going to lower the price of gas at the pump. Can you please enlighten me? If someone believes that solar and wind can keep our $14,000,000,000,000 (thats 14 Trillion) economy moving, they need a reality check!
Old    Da MOOSE (da_moose)      Join Date: Feb 2004       03-16-2011, 8:39 PM Reply   
adam once again your a little thinker 14 TRILL. divide by ,200mil.working Americans is just $70.000 per person ,,we should be in the $100,000+ per person on ave. that would be 20 trill.
all were doing is just taping into da grid ,,,any panel would help even if it just 10 (i had a shop were the landlord did solar ,,,he had panels up and use to Bragg to me how he had no electric bill ,,,i know it works ,Ive seen it
still seen No ideas yet ????? on how to save oil?????? not one
Old    Adam R (wakecumberland)      Join Date: Oct 2007       03-17-2011, 8:56 AM Reply   
First, your assumptions are wrong. We have 152,635,000 workers in the US according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t01.htm So the real number is $91,722 GDP per worker. We are the largest per capita economy in the world, and you believe by ditching oil and coal for solar panels, we will magically reach 20 Trillion per year in GDP? I dont know how to respond to that way of thinking........

Of course, this still doesnt answer the question of how this will lower the cost of fuel at the pump. Are we going to replace the 250,000,000 vehicles registered in the US with electirc powered cars, trucks, busses and trains? Where are you going to get all the batteries? How will you produce the electricity to charge 250 million vehicles? SOLAR? HA!
Old    SamIngram            03-18-2011, 9:46 AM Reply   
I posted up a couple of solutions... first we get the government out of the auto industry! Let the manufacturers build what they think they can sell. Let them bring diesel and other innovations to market, like the Smokey Yunick engine. Let up on emissions standards for altenative fueled cars for so many years, we can barely meet the new emissions standards now. Basically, get the government out of the automotive and fuel industry. Get the government out of farming and ethanol fuel.

The other things we can do is use more passive solar design, it doesn't cost that much and reduces power consumption. We can also use regular solar if we can find a way to do it effectively. I have a solar/low power draw freezer powered by four large panels from a local electronic salvage yard. I bought it planning for when "The Sh%t" happens - I'll still have a freezer when the power goes out.

We can also just use less gas. I am riding my bike 3.3 miles to work 3-4 days a week, not because I'm worried about the environment, but because I'm a cheap bastard.

The biggest thing that we can do though is to stop using foreign oil and start letting small time oil companies like Atlas Natural Gas and Oil drill for domestic power.

Has anyone looked at the North Dakota economy? It's built on domestic power!

North Dakota’s Phantom Roughnecks Build Economy, Destroy Roads
Old    Dave (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-18-2011, 10:13 AM Reply   
The US doesn't have enough oil to sustain itself with the population you have. You need the foreign oil. I do agree we all need to look at better alternatives but the large oil companies and goverment aren't going to really push alternatives until there is really a need and every well goes dry.
Old    SamIngram            03-18-2011, 10:28 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcrider View Post
The US doesn't have enough oil to sustain itself with the population you have. You need the foreign oil. I do agree we all need to look at better alternatives but the large oil companies and goverment aren't going to really push alternatives until there is really a need and every well goes dry.
I'm am sorry, but you don't know squat about the US oil, natural gas, and coal supplies...

Do your homework!

The latest CRS Report says otherwise, we are actually the leader in supply...

The report was public for about eight hours about a week ago but was pulled after Inhofe's speech the other day. It will be available to the public again within 90 days.


The cessation of Libya’s mere 1.7 million barrels of production per day has caused chaos in the global market. Were we to pump our oil reserves at a similar rate, the oil would last for 263 years. This would presumably have a commensurately positive effect on oil prices.

- America’s combined recoverable natural gas, oil, and coal reserves are far larger than that of China, Saudi Arabia, and Canada combined.

- Future reserves of natural gas total 2,047 trillion cubic feet, sufficient to satiate U.S. energy demands for 90 years.

- The U.S. is the world’s leader in coal reserves, at 28% of the world’s known coal. The 262 billion short tons are enough to satisfy our annual needs for 218 years.

- The Department of Energy estimates that there are 1.38 trillion barrels of recoverable oil shale in the Rockies. That amounts to five times the oil reserves of Saudi Arabia.

Red State Blog on CRS report

Hot Air's Blog on CRS report

I get daily updates regarding the CRS report from Atlas Natural Gas and Oil... Don't believe what everyone tells you.
Old    Adam R (wakecumberland)      Join Date: Oct 2007       03-18-2011, 11:05 AM Reply   
Nice work Sam! We don't need the towel head's oil if we just open up our own resources to exploration. We can start by shuting down the Department of Energy and the EPA.....might as well close the Department of Education and the IRS while we're at it
Old    Dave (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-18-2011, 11:54 AM Reply   
Ok cyber bully. Regardless if I'm right or wrong your tact in this thread amongst many others is yet to be desired by many.

From your own link:
•While we only have 28 billion barrels of proven oil reserves, there are 135 billion additional barrels of undiscovered, yet recoverable, oil resources throughout our territory. In other words, as a result of the war against drilling, we can only “prove” the existence of 18% of the total 163 billion barrels. This is because we can’t officially prove the exact amount of fuel resources until we explore and drill them. If we were to tap into our resources, we could cancel our imports from the Persian Gulf for 50 years, still meeting our energy needs.

Obviously, not all of the estimated resources necessarily exist or can be extracted in an economical way


So does that mean I need to try and get a rep in the Alberta Tar Sands to say the same thing and come up with a report? Damn near anyone could say we have that but haven't proved it yet.

Your arguement should be that your goverment won't give authorization to do the drilling because of it's own agenda. Whether is exists or not is irrelevant
Old    Dave (bcrider)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-18-2011, 11:58 AM Reply   
I'd love to stay and chat but I'm going away for the weekend as I have better things to do so have fun in my absense!
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       03-18-2011, 12:02 PM Reply   
No matter what we can prove we have/don't have, as of today I think we NEED to access some of this oil.

If we tap these fields and show foreign providers we don't need them, they'll be far more willing to cut deals. Simple supply and demand. We're demanding this stuff and that allows them to do whatever they want, because they have the only supply.

Imagine providing our own oil/gas/etc for just one year.... that one year would blow the minds (and pocket books) of the foreign providers and my guess is they would be begging for our business back.... at a much better deal. Sure we would run out in XXX years, but the people running stuff don't care about that, they want their bills paid this year -- serve ourself for a year, make them miss us, come back and sign an agreement that locks us at a certain price fixture and never look back.
Old    SamIngram            03-18-2011, 12:06 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcrider View Post
Ok cyber bully. Regardless if I'm right or wrong your tact in this thread amongst many others is yet to be desired by many.
You don't have to read it if you don't want to... I just think you should do some research...
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       03-18-2011, 1:23 PM Reply   
"Imagine providing our own oil/gas/etc for just one year.... that one year would blow the minds (and pocket books) of the foreign providers and my guess is they would be begging for our business back.... at a much better deal."

How is that possible? Oil is a globally traded commodity. It doesn't matter where it is drilled it's the same price. ExxonMobil and BP both drill in the US, how come that oil isn't sold cheaper.
Old    SamIngram            03-18-2011, 1:43 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake77 View Post
"Imagine providing our own oil/gas/etc for just one year.... that one year would blow the minds (and pocket books) of the foreign providers and my guess is they would be begging for our business back.... at a much better deal."

How is that possible? Oil is a globally traded commodity. It doesn't matter where it is drilled it's the same price. ExxonMobil and BP both drill in the US, how come that oil isn't sold cheaper.
I just explained this to you in another thread... this is not true...
Old    SamIngram            03-18-2011, 1:49 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamIngram View Post
I can sell my natural gas and oil at the same exchanges that I sell corn at. I can sell it on the Chicago exchange (CME) or the St.Louis exchange (MCE) or the West Texas exchange (WTI) all for different prices. If I sign a delivery contract I can only choose one exchange and the price changes depending on refinery capacity, distance, handling, and exchange rate. If I subcontract and pool my volumes with other small well owners I can use any commodity exchange in the world. I pool with about a hundred other crude well owners and sell on the Singapore Mercantile Exchange (SMX) which pays approximately 15% more because the big boys won't ship there. In the US prices probably fluctuate by 10-20% depeding on the exchange. I can only sell on certain exchanges and get top dollar due to the make up of my crude and my natural gas; both are high in sulfur and I can't get top dollar in any of the eastern exchanges or in California. In Chicago and St.Louis they don't care. US oil is very locational, and based on volume and make up among other things. In the US there are tons and tons of small well owners like me. I have absolutely no business relationship with any of the big oil companies. With corn, I am tied to Cargill because they provide the seed, which is part of the deal, it's almost no risk and no up front cost for me.
The price is not the same, and the chemical make-up of crude is different depending on where it was sourced. Local oil in the end is cheaper... I have sales receipts and a sales license that proves it..
Old    SamIngram            03-18-2011, 2:14 PM Reply   
If someone knows how to do a screenshot in unix I can show you, I don't know how to access the real time exchange ticker on the internet, but in Chicago (CME) I can get $92.03/42 gallons. If I sell it in West Texas (WTI) I can get about $97.32/42 gallons, but have to pay a pooling cost of about 3%. The sulfur in my crude is roughly 2.1% which is higher than benchmark crude which is what you see listed on the news in both the futures and current exchanges... Since my oil has a high sulfer content it has to be mixed with other sources (usually at a refinery) but is sold in paper as premix. Depending on the exchange I have a different straight price and a different pooled or mixed price. The different levels of crude will produce different volumes of gasoline, etc..



List of Crude Oil Products

Oil Basis

Even though you can buy and sell oil at one price in the stock market, it is not bought and sold that way by the producers...

Sorry to bully, but I hate disinformation in this subject...
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       03-18-2011, 2:33 PM Reply   
From your source ASam,

"The three most quoted oil products are North America's West Texas Intermediate crude (WTI), North Sea Brent Crude, and the UAE Dubai Crude, and their pricing is used as a barometer for the entire petroleum industry, although, in total, there are 46 key oil exporting countries. Brent Crude is typically priced at about $2 dollars over the WTI Spot price, which is typically priced $5 to $6 dollars above the EIA's Imported Refiner Acquisition Cost (IRAC) and OPEC Basket prices."

What you mention has no effect on what you pay at the pump. If I am wrong, prove it.
Old    SamIngram            03-18-2011, 2:43 PM Reply   
Yes, it does, why are gas prices different everywhere in the country, even if you account for taxes? If it all is bought and sold at the same price why are gas prices different?
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       03-18-2011, 2:46 PM Reply   
Taxes and availability.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       03-18-2011, 2:48 PM Reply   
And if I am dead wrong, how come a higher barrel price means a higher price at the pump and a lower barrel price equates to a lower pump price?
Old    Adam Curtis (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       03-21-2011, 8:08 AM Reply   
"If it all is bought and sold at the same price why are gas prices different? "

it's not bought at the same price.....markets are not 100% effecient. The markets are larger for crude ( than say nat gas) but not as big as one might think IMO. Transporation ( after the sale) of any commodity can be a sizeable expense that's passed all the way thru the chain. Not to metnion most trades unless your a producer are brokered in some way...that costs $$. Storage ( after the sale) is also a cost. Some companies are more effecient than other with regards to these costs than others.....crude prices are reflected in gas prices but there's alot more that goes into it...ultimately the end retailer ( company owned stations or individually owned ) are setting gas prices.
Old    Adam Curtis (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       03-21-2011, 8:09 AM Reply   
I much more familar with the NGL/LNG/Nat gas markets but assume it's similar in crude. My company ( not in the business of buying/selling) will sometimes buy gas for well below mkt bc of our supperior value chain of assests in the midstream business.

Do you think Joe Dirt who owns 5 wells out in the middle of nowhere sells his crude at market prices??? not a chance. Not everyone buys/sells at the big hubs.

Last edited by acurtis_ttu; 03-21-2011 at 8:15 AM.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       03-22-2011, 4:50 PM Reply   
^Can you please direct me to the "little hub" so I can get a better deal on gas? At least the gas station that gets their gas from the "little hub".
Old    SamIngram            03-23-2011, 9:00 AM Reply   
Well, when I do a "short run" I use Petroleum Traders or Petroleum Brokers Limited, but then again I don't know anything... I am really surprised to see you ask though... I thought you knew everything about the oil business...
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       03-23-2011, 2:01 PM Reply   
From Petroleum Traders:

"We provide discount fuel to commercial, government, and wholesale customers of all sizes."

That's fine and dandy if I have a fleet of vehicles, but it's just my truck and my wife's vehicle. I can't just pull up to either of the business you have listed and fill my tank.
Old    SamIngram            03-23-2011, 2:08 PM Reply   
What is a fleet?
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       03-23-2011, 2:37 PM Reply   
^Sam, we all know you are handy w/ a dictionary, find the definition.
Old    Da MOOSE (da_moose)      Join Date: Feb 2004       03-23-2011, 8:32 PM Reply   
i didn't see any one coming up with any way to get off oil ???glad to see nobody said 'how aboat a nuke plant"
i guess there only one thing to say
Attached Images
 
Old    SamIngram            03-24-2011, 9:15 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by da_moose View Post
i didn't see any one coming up with any way to get off oil ???glad to see nobody said 'how aboat a nuke plant"
i guess there only one thing to say
That's because there really is no reason to get off oil, at least as of yet. We have a huge supply here in the US, in which an awful lot of is very easy to get. We currently have a bunch of morons trying to make a false emergency that requires us to get off oil sooner than later. The people see through this crap and as result have not reacted.

If someone is concerned about the price of gasoline the easiest thing they can do to cut their fuel price in half is switch to natural gas. My parents have three natural gas cars, a 2008 Mercury Grand Marquis, a 2009 Chevy 2500HD, and a they just bought a 2010 Dodge Grand Caravan. They have two stations in their garage and fuel the cars whenever they are at home. The pumps are very, very slow, but the EQUIVALENT natural gas to gasoline price is around $1.97 a gallon. Natural gas is not sold by the gallon and is slightly less efficient, but have you do the conversion it is almost 50% less than gas. The cars can all burn gasoline too, but they only use gas when they are on a trip and can't find a high pressure CNG pump. A high pressure CNG pump will fill the tank in about 5 minutes. CNG has way fewer emissions too. If you have natural gas in your house you can do the switch today.

Natural Gas vs. Gasoline Engine Emissions - Source - U.S. Environmental Protection Agency

Reduces carbon monoxide emissions 90%-97%
Reduces carbon dioxide emissions 25%
Reduces nitrogen oxide emissions 35%-60%
Potentially reduces non-methane hydrocarbon emissions 50%-75%
Emits fewer toxic and carcinogenic pollutants
Emits little or no particulate matter
Eliminates evaporative emissions

Another thing that you can is do to support technology that we already have, but don't use. Can you imagine the Smokey Yunick Hot Vapor Engine concept, but with today's computers behind it? How about water, Methanol, or alcohol injection? All work and are very cheap. Ever hear of Snow Performance?

If I had natural gas at my house, which I do not, I would make the switch in a second. At one of my side jobs my boss installed a natural gas station at work. He does not have it at home, but has three cars for his family and just fills them up at work.

I have a feeling that you are looking for a silver bullet, which doesn't currently exist, unless you can figure out how to get Tesla's research back from the federal government.
Attached Images
 
Old    Jo Shmoe (joeshmoe)      Join Date: Jan 2003       03-24-2011, 7:17 PM Reply   
Isn't there a State that has 50% of its vehicles run on natural gas? Utah?
Old    Adam Curtis (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       03-25-2011, 6:10 AM Reply   
Jeremy, I should have been more specific, I used the term "hub" as a place where crude (not gasoline) was bought/sold. A large hub like Cushing, ok ( WTI) usually gets you the best price (many factors go into this) . Unfortunately, there is no physical market place for gasoline that I know of . Economics says your gas retailer is getting the best price on gas he can (unless it's a company owned station) . All gasoline comes from the same refineries across the US (it gets blended, usually at terminals, with whatever additives a company wants). My company owns large terminals that store and distribute gasoline/diesel for our customers. We keep our customers additives on site and blend appropriately.
Old    SamIngram            03-25-2011, 8:11 AM Reply   
I saw this article this morning...

CBO: Taxing mileage a 'practical option' for revenue enhancement

This would be the straw that broke the camel's back for me... I will participate in an armed insurrection or I would sit back and just "shrug", either way would be the end of days for me.

I wasn't aware of any state with 50% of its vehicles on natural gas... maybe State vehicles or municipalities or something like that. My parents are in IL and are the only people they know using natural gas cars.
Old    SamIngram            03-30-2011, 1:56 PM Reply   
BTW, here in AZ, the BLM currently has so many applications to lease land for solar farms that they can't handle them all. Approximately 41 square miles of land is currently leased or in the pipeline. Since CA mandates that a certain amount of the their power has to be "clean", companies in the AZ desert are trying to fill those artificially mandated demands.... at premium price no less. We also have one guy in the office who does nothing but negotiate "solar rooftop leases". I'm not exactly sure how it works, but the land owner generally gets a tax subsidy, and the solar company provides and sells the power.

First Solar, Abengoa to feds: Don’t cut loan program

Arizona has one solar project on fast track; First Solar still on list

First Solar Mesa plant to employ 600

APS, Flagstaff schools OK solar power project

IMHO, this is all crap, because the industry can not stand on its own. In all cases it requires some government subsidy with one of the main subsidies being from the State of California - which is already broke. When they can no longer, what happens to the industry?

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