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Old    Matt Johnston (mattjj23)      Join Date: May 2008       01-09-2011, 1:25 PM Reply   
Will wearing a wakeboarding helmet prevent concussions or are they just for hitting rails?
Old    Andy Graham (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-09-2011, 2:04 PM Reply   
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Old    Hayes (hayes)      Join Date: Aug 2007       01-09-2011, 3:07 PM Reply   
No, nothing can prevent concussions. They are caused by your brain impacting your skull. Example: NFL players get concussions all of the time.

However, you should wear a helmet when hitting sliders.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       01-09-2011, 3:25 PM Reply   
I think everyone should wrap themselves up in bubble wrap to prevent injuries.
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       01-09-2011, 4:57 PM Reply   
7 seasons with no helmet and several concussions. 3 seasons with a helmet, no concussions. My results have proved positive.
Old    Ben Ax (hawkeye7708)      Join Date: Feb 2007       01-09-2011, 5:10 PM Reply   
Matt,

You're gonna get numerous opinions from this. Everybody has their own experience and varying opinion on helmets. There is a classic argument of added cushion and barrier to impact vs. increase in contact surface area and added weight. It's a different strokes for different folks. Most of the riders I ride with do wear helmets whether it's wake or on rails. I've had two (noticeable) concussions wakeboarding both were before I started wearing my helmet. Different strokes for different folks!
Old    Seahawks #1 Fan Robert T (cwb4me)      Join Date: Apr 2010       01-09-2011, 5:10 PM Reply   
helmets may limit the amount of concussions you get but they are not 100% sucessful in preventing them.any sport has risks,if you want to minimize yours wear a helmet and cga lifevest.
Old    Mike Thell (SafetyMike)      Join Date: Nov 2010       01-09-2011, 5:29 PM Reply   
they definitly help my buddy just bought the new pro tech helmet its like the B2 or something and you can definitly tell the diffrence in impact on the water
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       01-09-2011, 5:40 PM Reply   
too many variables, but i think for the most part helmets will help prevent concussions.
Old    Damo Cox (d4m0)      Join Date: Apr 2009       01-09-2011, 6:40 PM Reply   
pretty much cant stop concussion lol... seen my fair share of people get KOed or concussed at cable learning air tricks with or with-out a helmet...
Old    vision (bobenglish)      Join Date: Mar 2008       01-09-2011, 6:56 PM Reply   
Yes.

The risk of sustaining a concussion is directly related to the rate of deceleration of your head which determines how hard your brain hits your skull. A well padded helmet will absorb some of the force, decreasing the rate of deceleration and decreasing the force at which your brain slams against your skull.

With forces at the edge of where concussions occur, even a slight decrease in force can make a huge clinical difference.

In theory, a helmet with small raised dimples on the surface to break the water surface may even further decrease the force of deceleration.
Old    Eric Anderson (e_rock32)      Join Date: Oct 2009       01-09-2011, 7:39 PM Reply   
Consider that there is an increased amount of surface area that will impact the water when you are wearing a helmet. Increased surface area can be compared to someone who dives in opposed to someone who belly flops. The person who belly flops will stop the fastest causing the most pain in the impact with the water because the surface area caused them to decelerated the quickest. So the real question is, "Is there enough padding inside of the helmet to overcome the increased surface area?" But there are other things to consider: "Could the increase surface area on your head that impacts the water increase the risk of neck injuries?" Probably no more than hitting a solid object, but the risk could increase. I'm not sure if the engineers looked into these things when making wakeboard helmets, but I would recommend one for cable riding and rails. I've also heard a couple of stories where people scorpion and the board hits them in the head, but I can't say that I'm that flexible.
Old    Andrew Moreton (andrew_moreton)      Join Date: Feb 2003       01-09-2011, 7:52 PM Reply   
I've had several concussions (behind the boat) when I wasn't wearing my helmet and luckily haven't had one yet (behind the boat) while wearing the helmet. Obviously when hitting rails, helmets are a must. I wear one 100% of the time now. Don't know how many concussions I have prevented but also don't want to know!
Old    Adam Duggan (piggie)      Join Date: Feb 2010       01-09-2011, 10:41 PM Reply   
my mates wife still managed a mean concussion after catching her front edge goin g wake to wake and she was wearing a helmet. I wear one 99% of the time mainly because i have ear flaps and it reduces the chance of blowing my eardrums if i land on my side as i had a bad fall last year that almost blew my eardrum.
Old    Brian Deegan (irishrider92)      Join Date: Jun 2009       01-10-2011, 6:09 AM Reply   
Andy I was about to do the exact same thing. Loving it!
Old    Justin Harrelson (skiboarder)      Join Date: Oct 2006       01-10-2011, 7:49 AM Reply   
**When riding the wake, I rarely wear a helmet, but...

Helmets prevent concusions, period. Any additional padding between the surface you are hitting and your brain is better--use common sense guys. Some of these posts are dumb and very misleading (in a dangerous direction).

Does a helmet eliminate all risk, no.

You can still die wearing a seatbelt in a car, infact, it could be the seatbelt that kills you, but the benefits far outweight the risk.

If you have had a concussion or it just makes you more confortable, wear a helmet. I can't believe that there are people that would steer people away from one.
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       01-10-2011, 9:08 AM Reply   
My two major concussions were face smackers. No helmet is going to help that.

I still believe that making your head bigger, with an object that is bouyant, is going to make your head stop faster when it hits the water. Not slower.

Although I admit that Sparky Jays post is interesting.
Old    Derek Seaman (nautiqu13)      Join Date: Dec 2000       01-10-2011, 9:11 AM Reply   
Helmets definitely do not prevent concussions. Ask a football player!

Here is some research...
http://www.wakeworld.com/news/featur...5-55-1447.html
Old    Kyle Linsey (kyle_L)      Join Date: Mar 2010       01-10-2011, 9:21 AM Reply   
How would the football player be without the helmet?
Old    Kyle Linsey (kyle_L)      Join Date: Mar 2010       01-10-2011, 9:25 AM Reply   
It also depends on the fall and the type of padding in the helmet. Protec has the "skateboard style" padding which i think 100% will help with concussions vs the "water sports" helmet which i don''t think helps AS much. The whiplash coup contrecoup injury is more related to your brain just getting tossed forward in your skull then tossed back. The helmet will not help this because the motion is still occurring but in the strait hard head hits, the padding will 100% help more than hinder.
Old    Baitkiller (baitkiller)      Join Date: Jan 2010       01-10-2011, 9:45 AM Reply   
Faceplants still hurt bad. I know. But heel diggers hurt allot less while wearing my Protec. This I also know.
I think I may name my next boat "digger".
Old    Andy Nintzel (andy_nintzel)      Join Date: Sep 2004       01-10-2011, 10:59 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wake_upppp View Post
7 seasons with no helmet and several concussions. 3 seasons with a helmet, no concussions. My results have proved positive.
I had 4 concussions wearing a helemet between 2003-2006 while riding behind the boat. Finally I got pissed off ditched the helmet and zero concussions since frim behind the boat. I know I might be the exception to the norm but, I havent slowed down my riding at all, still progressing and taking slams. I have denifetly rung my bell a bunch of times since ditching the helmet. The only theory I have heard that makes an sense the the helmet might cause more drag when hitting the water and slow your head down to fast causing your brain to hit the inside of the skull quicker. I am no Doctor nor did that theory come from a Doc.
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       01-10-2011, 1:04 PM Reply   
It certtInly does depend on the fall for me too. My nasty ones are always heel diggers and the helmet really helps me on those no doubt about it. The toe diggers are different but I have worked on seeing those coming and getting into a tuck which helps. I do find more neck strain with the helmet on toe diggers if I dont react in time to tuck though. No safety device is 100%
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       01-10-2011, 2:50 PM Reply   
This may be a dumb question... but how do you know if you got a concussion or not? I have taken some diggers and had that "intstant headache" feeling. But I don't know that they were concussions.
Old    Derek Seaman (nautiqu13)      Join Date: Dec 2000       01-10-2011, 3:27 PM Reply   
The question was, "Will wearing a wakeboarding helmet prevent concussions or are they just for hitting rails?"

A helmet will NOT prevent a concussion. Padding in a helmet is not going to slow the deceleration of you head significantly enough to prevent one. I know a football player would be much worse off without a helmet, but that wasn't the question. If you take a board, rail, etc to the head, as I've seen many times, a helmet will definitely prevent the board from cracking your skull.

Here's what the Bicycle Helmet Safety Institute has to say. I think the second line says it all.
http://www.bhsi.org/up0205a.htm


DBC (ixfe),
read this article, Sean does a good job of pointing out the symptoms and I think its something everyone should be aware of.
http://www.wakeworld.com/news/featur...5-55-1447.html
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       01-10-2011, 5:32 PM Reply   
Just curious what the bicycle helmet safety institue has to do with water, wakeboarding and wake specific helmets? My helmet HAS kept me from getting concussed. You know how I know? I've been riding long enough and have taken the same falls over the years with and without a helmet, that's how. I love when someone tries to tell me something won't work when I know it does. Hilarious.
Old    Kyle Linsey (kyle_L)      Join Date: Mar 2010       01-10-2011, 5:49 PM Reply   
DBC, unless they went to the hospital and the doctor confirmed the concussion, you do not know if you really sustained a true concussion.
Yes there is more surface area but it is not your head that has increased in SA, it is the helmet. The key is having the right type of padding in the helmet. The wakeboard protecs with the harder foam I do not think helps as much but is better than your head alone. The helmet gives you a barrier of padding that you normally would not have had. The protec with the soft foam that really conforms to your head is providing a huge cushion and if it is the correct size with the strap tightened properly and not hanging loose, you are 100% helping prevent a concussion. The impact is being distributed through the plastic, which would have been your skull into the foam which would have been your brain then into your skull and to your brain. Just by sheer distribution of energy, once the impact has reached your skull with a helmet on, the force has been lessened by the other two barriers.
Snowboarding is a great example. If you hit your head on the snow with a helmet, the odds of getting a concussion are far less than hitting your head on the snow without a helmet. Yes snow is a harder surface but at 20-25 mph, hitting the water ain't like landing on pillows.

Last edited by wakeworld; 01-12-2011 at 11:46 AM.
Old    Nickbot (nickbot)      Join Date: Feb 2007       01-11-2011, 9:43 AM Reply   
it may or may not help...but they definitely look stupid behind the boat...is the 5% change that it may help worth the 100% chance of looking like a 'tard??
Old    Andy Graham (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-11-2011, 9:55 AM Reply   
The nice thing about getting older... Is that you don't care if you look like a "tard".

The shorts make up for it, right Dave?
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Old    Nickbot (nickbot)      Join Date: Feb 2007       01-11-2011, 10:02 AM Reply   
in your case, it's not the helmet...
Old    Andy Graham (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-11-2011, 10:38 AM Reply   
Ha! Got a good LOL out of that! Since the helmet won't make a difference either way, I'll just keep it on.
Old    Nickbot (nickbot)      Join Date: Feb 2007       01-11-2011, 10:48 AM Reply   
glad you laughed rather than getting offended...hope the helmet works out for ya...
Old    Kyle Linsey (kyle_L)      Join Date: Mar 2010       01-11-2011, 5:18 PM Reply   
nickbot, is it worse to look like a tard or turn into a tard because you didn't wear a helmet? for people who want to wear one, more power too them
Old    Nickbot (nickbot)      Join Date: Feb 2007       01-12-2011, 7:19 AM Reply   
it's all about the %...i don't wear a bicycle helmet either...i think adults wearing bike helmets just to cruise down the road is ridiculous...if you can't navigate a sidewalk without thumping your melon, maybe you should just stay inside your bubble all day...
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       01-12-2011, 10:58 AM Reply   
Those shorts will keep you safe no matter what! No helmet necessary!!

Here is our article on Concussions: http://www.wakeworld.com/news/featur...5-55-1447.html
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       01-12-2011, 11:43 AM Reply   
Kyle, do you have some sort of research that supports your contention that a helmet will reduce concussions in the case of a head hitting the water? I haven't seen any research on this and it would be great if someone performed some testing in this area. Keep in mind that you cannot make the assumption that hitting your head on water is the same as hitting it on snow, concrete, slider, etc.
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       01-12-2011, 12:37 PM Reply   
Dont we as idividuals basicaly do our own research on this subject? Is real life experience not research?
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       01-12-2011, 12:40 PM Reply   
Sure, if that works for you. I'm looking for something definitive such as lab tests that show me whether or not a helmet helps, hurts or makes no difference.
Old    Chris            01-12-2011, 12:52 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakeworld View Post
Keep in mind that you cannot make the assumption that hitting your head on water is the same as hitting it on snow, concrete, slider, etc.
I don't mean to give the impression that I'm singling out this particular statement, but it got me to thinking:

My knowledge of physics is admittedly limited, but I think that depends on the speed of the impact and the surface area of the object. The higher the speed and the larger the object, the more water will act like concrete. At some point, I'd say speed is more of a factor than surface area (water will deflect a bullet, for example). It would be interesting to see the results of a similar study on a graph. I'm guessing theres a point at which speed and surface area intersect.

Assuming that the previous paragraph is true, does that mean that a boarder who is wearing a helmet is more suseptable to a concussion, based upon the increased surface area of the helmet (assuming speed is constant)? I don't know - perhaps so.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       01-12-2011, 1:06 PM Reply   
Quote:
My knowledge of physics is admittedly limited, but I think that depends on the speed of the impact and the surface area of the object.
I agree. However, for the purposes of our discussion, I think it's safe to assume that our head to water contact is nowhere close to head to concrete contact.

Quote:
Assuming that the previous paragraph is true, does that mean that a boarder who is wearing a helmet is more suseptable to a concussion, based upon the increased surface area of the helmet (assuming speed is constant)?
I agree that this is a possibility and it is usually overlooked by those making assumptions about helmets. This has to be weighed against the obviously padding benefits provided by a helmet. So far I have seen no studies that do this.
Old    Chris            01-12-2011, 1:38 PM Reply   
Quote:
I think it's safe to assume that our head to water contact is nowhere close to head to concrete contact.
I guess I'm reluctant to go that far without some empirical data.

We need a study! Someone should propose this idea to The Myth Busters.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       01-12-2011, 1:53 PM Reply   
Quote:
I guess I'm reluctant to go that far without some empirical data.
I'm basing this on the fact that I've hit my head on water many times at wakeboarding speeds and I've hit my head on concrete a few times at much lower speeds. I'll take the wakeboard fall any day of the week!
Old    Chris            01-12-2011, 1:59 PM Reply   
No argument there.

Oddly enough, the few times that I have hit my head on concrete, I was not wearing a helmet. Walking can be a challenge at times.

Last edited by Chris; 01-12-2011 at 2:02 PM.
Old    Shawndoggy (shawndoggy)      Join Date: Nov 2009       01-12-2011, 2:33 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakeworld View Post
Those shorts will keep you safe no matter what! No helmet necessary!!

Here is our article on Concussions: http://www.wakeworld.com/news/featur...5-55-1447.html
Till it saves your life. I used to race bicycles pretty seriously. One morning I was out on a training ride by myself. Not racing, not riding like a madman or anything, just getting in some miles. Mind drifted and before I knew it I was ass over tea kettle at 30 mph. Road rashed like a mofo, but my mellon was fine, despite it being the first thing that hit the pavement. Helmet was utterly smashed to bits.

I was not doing anything particularly dangerous at the time. I have no doubt that I would've been seriously f'd up had I not been wearing it.

That said and back to the topic at hand, I wear a helmet wakeboarding and I still managed to concuss the crap out of myself this summer. I'd by no means a 100% effective means of prevention, but I don't see how it hurts either.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       01-12-2011, 2:48 PM Reply   
Quote:
That said and back to the topic at hand, I wear a helmet wakeboarding and I still managed to concuss the crap out of myself this summer. I'd by no means a 100% effective means of prevention, but I don't see how it hurts either.
The way it could possibly hurt was explained a few posts up. The bigger the surface area of an object, the harder it is for it to be forced into the water. Putting a helmet on your head increases the surface area, which could make it harder for your head to enter the water. Therefore, the deceleration of your head when it hits the water would be increased, increasing your chances of a concussion. Not saying this is significant enough to make a difference or that it isn't compensated for by other factors, but it's something to study.
Old    Chris            01-12-2011, 3:01 PM Reply   
Maybe we're not approaching this issue from the same angle.

Who really wears a helmet to prevent a concussion? I wear a wake helmet simply because it makes me FEEL safer. Every other helmet I wear, I do so to prevent my dome from being crushed like a melon. If I hit my head while riding my motorcycle, I fully expect some degree of concussion. I do, however, expect it to prevent more serious injury to my head in most cases. Same goes for skateboards and skiing.
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       01-12-2011, 3:26 PM Reply   
I guesss thats what I am saying. It seems the majority of riders that wear them and chime in on theae threads say they help so Isn't that better than some lab test? It's a real world lab test.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       01-12-2011, 3:43 PM Reply   
With all due respect, you might have convinced yourself that it helps (and you may be 100% correct), but you can't know for sure without using some solid test procedures with all those proper testing methods that you learned about in science class. Assuming your latest crash with a helmet on was just as violent as the crash you had two years ago without a helmet on that gave you a concussion is not, in my humble opinion, a very reliable test method. It might be enough for you, but it does not give me enough confidence to tell everyone that wearing a helmet definitely helps reduce concussions.
Old    Baitkiller (baitkiller)      Join Date: Jan 2010       01-12-2011, 3:46 PM Reply   
test: Control: No helmet // Heel side digger at 22 MPH with a straight back head plant.
result: Loss of focal stabilization, loss of lunch into the current. Loss of balance of remaining sets for the day. Loss of ability to enjoy a few adult beverages that evening. Pounding headache.,>>>> for four days.....>>>

test: subject // Wearing Protec acer. Heel side digger full extended head plant. ( you should see the face version, epic)
Result: Bit of bell ringer, crack a beer , light a smoke, ready for next set.

Works for me.

Face plants just frigg'n hurt. I have had eye peelers that damn near tore that Acer off my head a few times. Couldn't believe the strap didn't break. But backside edge diggers I'll bet you paychecks that helmets help.
Old    Chris            01-12-2011, 5:09 PM Reply   
Well, I guess there's the difference: "Real World" test vs. Scientific Method. Without subjective empirical data, "betting paychecks" is pointless.

I wear a helmet on the water, but I'm willing to concede that doing so may actually increase my chances of getting a concussion, whereas the same fall without a helmet may not result in the same injury. I do know that I don't know enough to recommend a helmet or not based solely on my own experience.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       01-12-2011, 5:18 PM Reply   
^^^^ Thank you Chris. That's all I'm saying!

Quote:
Face plants just frigg'n hurt. I have had eye peelers that damn near tore that Acer off my head a few times.
Yeah, I didn't even get into the matter of faceplants or any other type of fall that causes a bucketing effect with the helmet. I gotta think that the extra grab of the helmet going in face first has got to add some stank to it!
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       01-12-2011, 5:28 PM Reply   
So let me see if I understand correctly. Just because no research has been done specificaly with wake helmets and water we should throw out all the other data that has been accumulated over the years proving that your dome is better off and will recieve less injuries with a helmet on versus without? Seems a bit of a naive line of thinking to me.
Old    vision (bobenglish)      Join Date: Mar 2008       01-12-2011, 5:30 PM Reply   
No students out there that need a science project? Answering the question of whether an average wake hemet reduces the deceleration force when your head hits the water is a simple experiment. Drop a round container with an accelerometer inside into the water, and then duplicate this test with the container in a helmet. No, this does not mimic all the ways and certainly not the forces at which you head hits the water. Nor does it address the potential neck issue. But it will accurately show how well a helmet reduces deceleration forces.
Old    Chris            01-12-2011, 5:36 PM Reply   
*exasperated sigh*

OK, Sparky. Can we see your years of accumulated data, please? Part of the process is peer review, you know.
Old    Baitkiller (baitkiller)      Join Date: Jan 2010       01-12-2011, 5:40 PM Reply   
"Peer" is subjective. ever do jury duty?
Old    Baitkiller (baitkiller)      Join Date: Jan 2010       01-12-2011, 6:00 PM Reply   
OK, I have a techie buddy who could rig the devise and write the software. G meters are around 120 clams + - plus peripherals.

I say our Dear Leader Dave starts a drive to raise funds to get a full six suckers. er.. sorry "scientific participants" to do a real deal study.
Like the guy on my old thread suggested, do a mach speed Murray butter slide outside the wake back. then front for the sake of good science and drop that edge. Once your boat mates revive you we will review the G meter and upload the results into the data base.
Three backside diggers with a helmet and three without.
Three face plants on missed butter switches at full rope beam-to boat (Oh God that hurts) with and without helmets.

We can pay for the G meter with video rights of the blooper footage.

PUI violation.
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       01-12-2011, 6:07 PM Reply   
Chris, where did I say it was MY data? I am not talking about MY experience but rather scientific data. And yes," peer" is VERY subjective. lol
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       01-12-2011, 6:12 PM Reply   
Ask youselves this: why are helmets recommended, if not required, some states by law, in any activity/sport where your dome may collide with a hard surface at an exellerated speed? Seems like just plain old physics. In a nutshell, padding is going to soften the blow.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       01-12-2011, 6:15 PM Reply   
Quote:
So let me see if I understand correctly. Just because no research has been done specificaly with wake helmets and water we should throw out all the other data that has been accumulated over the years proving that your dome is better off and will recieve less injuries with a helmet on versus without?
I haven't see any data that specifically relates to water and, as I mentioned before, I'm not ready to make the assumption that helmets interact with water in the same way that they interact with hard objects with which you seem to be comfortable. So I haven't seen any data. If there is some, please provide it here.

What cracks me up is how personally people take it when others don't consider their personal experience as "scientific proof." Can't you understand that there isn't enough evidence for someone to make the claim that helmets will definitely help? Can't you at least admit that the jury is out on this until we have more information?
Old    Jason Callen (westsidarider)      Join Date: Feb 2003       01-12-2011, 6:16 PM Reply   
I only see a reason for wearing a helmet when there is chance of splitting my skull open due to impact with a solid surface, ie: cement, steel, rock, hard packed dirt or snow/ice or wood. I can deal with a concussion
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       01-12-2011, 6:21 PM Reply   
I like baitkiller's idea. I wonder if we could attach one of those Shadowboxes to a simulated head and measure the G forces when it hits the water by dropping it from the same distance. That would be kind of interesting.
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       01-12-2011, 6:21 PM Reply   
Oh I know my experience is far from scientific proof, but it's still proof to me. People like to split hairs for the sake of debate. Do you really think it's such a huge difference wether it's water or any other hard surface? I don't. Some padding is still going to soften the blow to your brain.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       01-12-2011, 6:23 PM Reply   
Quote:
Ask youselves this: why are helmets recommended, if not required, some states by law, in any activity/sport where your dome may collide with a hard surface at an exellerated speed?
Why do you continue to insist that water = hard surface? Can you not acknowledge that they are not the same thing?
Old    Baitkiller (baitkiller)      Join Date: Jan 2010       01-12-2011, 6:25 PM Reply   
What cracks me up is how personally people take it when others don't consider their personal experience as "scientific proof." Can't you understand that there isn't enough evidence for someone to make the claim that helmets will definitely help? Can't you at least admit that the jury is out on this until we have more information?


Is that our first volunteer?

Easy Dave, not militant, just anecdotal
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       01-12-2011, 6:27 PM Reply   
"I only see a reason for wearing a helmet when there is chance of splitting my skull open due to impact with a solid surface".... Kinda like the board hitting you in the back of the head? Seen it happen more than once. Or the kid who took a fall while riding the Delta and happened to hit his head on some debris and got I forget how many staples? Yeah like that.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       01-12-2011, 6:31 PM Reply   
Quote:
Some padding is still going to soften the blow to your brain.
Yes, agreed. Now you have to take into account the surface area of your head vs. your head with a helmet on and ask whether or not this increased surface area will make a difference in how quickly the head/helmet can enter the water. You also have to take into account the bucketing affect that takes place when the helmet edge catch on the water. You might even have some neck injury risk in there that wouldn't be present without the helmet. Who knows, maybe it isn't significant, but it does need to be considered.
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       01-12-2011, 6:31 PM Reply   
Certainly water and a hard surface aren't the same, but is there really such a huge difference that you would throw out all previous data envolving helmets and hard surfaces? Water can, and alot times is, like hitting concrete.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       01-12-2011, 6:39 PM Reply   
Quote:
Water can, and alot times is, like hitting concrete.
This is true, but not in the case of wakeboarding. I have never hit my head so hard on the water that it felt like the equivalent of hitting my head on concrete. If this applied to wakeboarding, we'd all be dead from head trauma. For our purposes, water is most certainly softer than concrete.
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       01-12-2011, 6:49 PM Reply   
So if the padding helps on a harder surface, wouldn't one conclude that it helps as well on the softer surface? It would have to would it not?
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       01-12-2011, 6:56 PM Reply   
Damn, Sparky! Aren't you reading these posts at all?? The answer is yes, as I wrote above...

Quote:
Yes, agreed. Now you have to take into account the surface area of your head vs. your head with a helmet on and ask whether or not this increased surface area will make a difference in how quickly the head/helmet can enter the water. You also have to take into account the bucketing affect that takes place when the helmet edge catch on the water. You might even have some neck injury risk in there that wouldn't be present without the helmet. Who knows, maybe it isn't significant, but it does need to be considered.
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       01-12-2011, 7:00 PM Reply   
I thought I was following. So regarding concussions Dave, you agree wearing helmets while wakeboarding help?
Old    Derek Seaman (nautiqu13)      Join Date: Dec 2000       01-12-2011, 7:28 PM Reply   
Some of you are missing the point and need to think about all sides of the argument. Larger surface area means you will not enter the water as much which means the water stops you faster. A good example of this is diving into the water. A smaller area will "pierce" the surface further which means the water allows for longer deceleration. That is why it is much different than a hard surface. Have you ever seen the guys that jump into the shallow water from high by doing a belly flop? Or conversely, have you ever seen a cliff diver enter the water? One wants to stop quickly and the other doesn't. Both have important techniques but a concussion only comes from the brain stopping rapidly, not from impact on a hard surface.

So the question is, is that difference in surface area of penetration more or less effective than the slowing characteristics of the padding in a helmet.

I love how some of you say personal experience is proof enough. For yourself, thats all that matters, but as you can clearly read, some people like Andy (and myself) have felt the opposite effects.

And as Dave has clearly pointed out, there has not been significant research enough to have a definite answer. Either way, a concussion is always possible in any situation. Should most people wear a helmet, yes. Can you say it prevents concussions, No.

My biggest concern is why is everyone getting concussions so frequently. Slow down your approach, stand tall at the top of the wake, and make sure the rope is close to your hip.
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       01-12-2011, 7:36 PM Reply   
Like someone said earlier, it's all about the pecentages. A helmet is not going to keep everyone in every fall from getting a concussion. It's like the fact that a small percentage of drivers die because they had their seatbelt on, but many many more live because of it. No safety equipment is %100.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       01-12-2011, 7:50 PM Reply   
Quote:
I thought I was following. So regarding concussions Dave, you agree wearing helmets while wakeboarding help?
I don't have enough information to agree or disagree. That's the point of every one of my posts. All that I agreed with is that padding helps reduce concussions. However, I've been trying to make the point that padding isn't the only factor involved here. All factors need to be weighed so that we can find out whether the factors provide a net benefit or not.
Old    Jeff C (greenbass86)      Join Date: May 2010       01-13-2011, 12:00 AM Reply   
How about we ask the Bat-Computer


Sorry I just had to throw that one in there
On a serious note, I've seen plenty of concussions in my day, mostly skateboarders and inliners, and some of them were wearing helmets, others weren't. IMO it all comes down to would you rather take that one extra step in safety and strap on a helmet with the belief that it will help ya out or just say to heck with it and go without it.
That was my two cents
Old    Andy Graham (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-13-2011, 8:51 AM Reply   
See post #2.
Old    Tdc_worm C (tdc_worm)      Join Date: Sep 2002       01-22-2011, 3:11 PM Reply   
EPS (expanded polystyrene) foam's purpose in a helmet is to control deceleration of the cranium upon contact with an object. its purpose is not to cushion. as the head decelerates, the brain moves in the direction of travel in the cranium. if the head rebounds too much upon contact (too soft EPS), the brain will move in the opposite direction and potentially cause a brain injury in the opposite direction. in reality you can suffer a concussion without having a head impact, as it is soley due to acceleration of your gray matter, which varies from person to person. some manufactures of [land] racing helmets use dual density EPS liners to try to mitigate what they MAY think the speed and direction of impact will most likely be. you can be sure of a couple things:

1) your wake helmets are not nearly that sophisticated
2) there is no way that wake helmet manufacturer could postulate what the relative direction and speed of impact will be for somebody riding from 22-26mph, cutting at infinite speeds, and complicating the speed and acceleration by spinning/inverting/catching an edge.

my approach is better safe than sorry. i wear knee braces for motocross (no imperical data shows a risk reduction of ACLs, and some would argue that there is an increased risk of femur injury), and Leatt neck brace (no impercial data shows a risk reduction of cervical injury, and some would argue that there is an increased risk of secondary clavical injury). as for wake helmets, the argument of water does not behave concrete doesnt apply in my opinion at the speeds we ride. last time i checked, it displaces much like an EPS foam helmet liner does upon impact, and therefor, serves as a mechanism to control deceleration of yours and my [otherwise abused] gray matter. now lets ween off the weak brain cells by drinking more beer!
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       01-22-2011, 3:38 PM Reply   
Quote:
my approach is better safe than sorry.
If there's no evidence that it helps and a possibility that it hurts, why is your approach better safe than sorry?

Quote:
as for wake helmets, the argument of water does not behave concrete doesnt apply in my opinion at the speeds we ride.
Did you write this wrong? I seems like you "DO" agree that water does not behave like concrete at the speeds we ride.
Old    Tdc_worm C (tdc_worm)      Join Date: Sep 2002       01-22-2011, 3:50 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakeworld View Post
If there's no evidence that it helps and a possibility that it hurts, why is your approach better safe than sorry?
good catch...i have already started on the man sodas, so i will expound: in the two instances that i listed, i am approaching it from a trade off stand point. while there is no evidence that knee braces serve as positive a mechanism to prevent ACL/MCL/PCL/LCL injury, they cannot worsen it. the trade off is a potential long bone injury. outside of the freak femoral artery tear from a simple of complex femur injury, i will take a long bone injury every day and twice on sunday before i will take a soft/connective tissue inury.

the same serves for neck braces. i will trade a clavicle (and have traded a clavicle) any day for a cervical spinal injury. connective and neural tissue does not regenerate. my clavicle has a plate, 6 screws, and demineralized bone matrix (aka dead people with growth factor) and was the easiest injury i have every had....

Did you write this wrong? I seems like you "DO" agree that water does not behave like concrete at the speeds we ride.[/QUOTE]

you are correct, those are fat man soda fingers typing. i have never seen concrete splash when a persons head hits it...it does not displace. i have seen water displace (like EPS foam), every time a head hits it, meaning that it serves as a mechanism of deceleration. until water ceases splashing and displacing, it will always server as a mechanism to control deceleration.
Old    Mase (superair502)      Join Date: Mar 2010       01-23-2011, 11:15 AM Reply   
Unless they figure out how to make a helmet with padding between your skull and your brain then I dont think wakeboard helmets are going to help very much for wake tricks. Impacts on the water are different than with say snow or concrete. Due to the problem of water displacing over the board and the ability for water to literally grab a board and the fact that you are strapped in, there is a tripping force you dont really see in snow or skate. Sure u can catch an edge on a snowboard and you will get slammed but the board will catch and throw itself forward and you may land 5 feet from where the edge caught. With wakeboarding, catching an edge the board literallty decelerates from your preffered wakeboard speed to 0 in 0 seconds due to the water knifing over the top of the board. Also it is not the impact with the water that hurts your brain, it is the sloshing of your brain forward inside your head and impacting with your skull. SO if you are wearing a helmet you are effectively maybe doubling the displacement of your head, which will resist the water even more. Sure the pads will cause your head to de-celerate a little slower but it prolly all washes out even in the end. Thats my .02 cents.

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