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Old    BTV (BTV)      Join Date: Jul 2010       01-04-2011, 4:00 PM Reply   
Looking to get new boat and can't decide which one. Wont be able to demo until spring. Thoughts on boarding and surf wake, handling, engine choice, and factory stereo would be appreciated. Coming out of X-2 if that helps. Thanks in advance.
Old    Michael Hunter (mhunter)      Join Date: Mar 2008       01-04-2011, 8:34 PM Reply   
Cant go wrong with a Nauti. The PCM engine would be enough to for me.But I wouldn't buy anything without a test drive.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       01-04-2011, 10:22 PM Reply   
Seems odd to compare these two boats. X-25 is 21.5' long. SAN 230 is 23' long.

Why not look at the X-35?
Old    Dan (hco)      Join Date: Jun 2006       01-04-2011, 10:38 PM Reply   
X-25 has the best stock wakeboarding wake ever. If you have 5+ people in the boat you don't even need to fill the ballast all the way. For wakesurfing it needs some weight but with 1200 lbs. in the back on the port side, stock ballast, and a couple hundred more up front we had an awesome regular side wave. I would take an x25 over an x35, the x35 doesnt have the same CSX based hull.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       01-04-2011, 10:46 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfe View Post
Seems odd to compare these two boats. X-25 is 21.5' long. SAN 230 is 23' long.

Why not look at the X-35?
I was going to ask this as well but I am guessing an X25 is probably equal to or more then a SAN230 making an X35 even more. What do 230's go for new these days? 80-90k? I am guessing most X25's are in the 85-95k are and the X35 is right around 100k.
Old    Jay (ironj32)      Join Date: Jan 2007       01-05-2011, 4:59 AM Reply   
BTV - I'm in the same predicament as you. Been thinking about the 230 and the X25 a lot this winter.

ixfe - Yes it might seem odd to compare the boats if you're primary concern is boat size, however, if you're wanting to get the best wake possible then it makes perfect sense to compare these two. Price between the two are relatively close.

All I can say is that I've been hearing good things about the X25. My only concern with it is that the back lockers are not that big, and I'm not sure I'd be able to put as much weight back there, thus not getting the max potential out of the wake. But people have been saying that the wake is awesome. Only way to find out is to demo.

I've rode the SAN 230 about 5 times last year and I can say that, to date, it's in my top two for favorite wakes. Just behind the old XStar (X1) hull.

Another thought. If your not in a super need to get a new boat, you might wanna wait and see what the 2012 XStars are going to be like. Rumor has it that they have a new hull. I'd imagine that they'll be close to what a new, loaded 230 is for price.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       01-05-2011, 6:43 AM Reply   
The 230 is a great boat overall. I owned 3 over the past three years. I think when set up correctly and with the right colors, the 230 is one of the best looking boats made. After almost four years of ownership, here is my pro and con list:

PROS:
Seating capacity - the bow is fairly large and can accomodate 3 people comfortably. The main seating area is roomy and can seat 6 people comfortably. You can have as many as 14 people on the boat without having to really really cram 'em in.

Stock wake - the wake behind the 230 with the stock ballast is awesome at 23 mph.

Surf wave - the surf wave behind the 230 with an extra 2-3k in the boat is money. It was better than any other boat I've ridden behind.

ZR6 motor - the ZR6 has plenty of power to push the 230 around until you throw an absolute ton of weight in it. I had no complaints about the motor performance.

Walk through sun pad - I really like the sunpad layout on the 230. It's super convenient and allows easy, non-slip, access to the rear of the boat.

Air dam door - the newer design of the air dam door is nice. It really does a great job of sealing the cockpit area off.

Driveability - even after adding extra ballast, the 230 handles like a dream. It never washes out on tight turns, handles chop really really well, and very very rarely subs the nose.

Storage - the 230 has tons and tons of storage. I put 16 orange pfd's under the front seats, which left plenty of room for a XXX sub and box in the OB compartment, sacks, ropes, handles, jackets, in the lockers, and all sorts of other stuff under the other seats.

Cooler - I loved having a full removeable cooler in the boat.

Construction - the 230 is a very solid built boat. I had very limited issues with the basic structure of my 230's. I had the SANO deck peal up on the swim platforms on all of my 230's and I developed stress cracks in the exhaust vents of my '08 and '09 - but not on my '10. I had very few issues with things rattling loose or coming apart after one season of use.

CONS:

Price - as I have stated in several other threads, I've gotten a boat at cost for the past five seasons through some connections I've developed. I was getting 230's because I loved the room and the PCM motor. Also, I liked the fact that Nautiques hold up well over time overall and historically have held their resale values better than some of the other top tier boats. However, it has gotten to the point where I simply cannot afford to take the risk of buying a 230 at cost and trying to sell it at the end of a season anymore. It was one thing to have to sell a used one year old boat for, say 59k. It's another deal alltogether to try and sell a used boat for 80k+ in this market especially. If money is no object, then none of this matters. However, if money is a factor, and you're the type of person who buys and sells every three years or so, look back at what '08 230's and '09 230's are selling for now. Granted, the resale prices of those boats have been helped out alot due to the fact that, in 3 years, 230's have increased in price about $30k. What you need to ask yourself is, how much more is the price of the 230 going to increase over the next three years? If the price levels out, (I can't see how it won't unless these boats are going to cost $150k msrp in three years when gas is $5/gallon), what's your 2011 going to be worth in 2014? Just make sure you are willing to take that hit. My suspicion is that if you buy a loaded 2011 for $85k right now, and prices stay somewhat stable, that 2011 with 200-300 hours on it in 2014 will probably be worth around $55-60k. That's $25-30k in depreciation in 3 years.

Tower - I don't like the new FCT5 tower. It's just preference. I don't like how you have no alternative tower options. While I have not verified this 100%, I believe that Wetsounds speakers, like 485's will not fit on the new tower if you buy the z5 rack. I will never own another boat without a z5, and I think the Wetsounds 485's are the best speakers on the market. The fact that I was told I could not have both an a 230 did not make me happy. I'm not sure why the Z5 ended up being integrated into the tower so that it can only be mounted in one specific position (on the FCT3, you could mount the tower various ways, and I was able to get 485's to fit). Some people may like the looks of the new tower and the fact that it folds much lower than the FCT3 did. Some people won't buy a z5 and/or will be happy with the factory tower speakers.

Vinyl - the interior on my 230's and on my friend's 230's have had some issues. The jump seat base tore in the cornes of the middle section of the seat in all three of my 230's. In my friend's 230's, the vinyl has separated at the piping on the seat bases of the rear corner seats. The white color base vinyl faded in my '08 and '09, but held up better in my '10. I noticed the fading when I replaced the jump seats. All this being said, the vinyl feels very good, is thick, and doesn't stain easily. I know changes were made in '10, so the '11 interiors may be flawless.

Zero Off - I had some issues with the zero off system on my 230's. I had surging problems on my '08 and '09 when the boat had extra ballast loaded in it. I did not have that problem with my '10, but on several limited occasions while riding up river in Knoxville by the Sea Ray plant, the zero off would cut out completely while I was pulling a rider. I also had problems from time to time getting the zero off to hold 11 mph when surfing when the boat was loaded heavy.

LINC system - I grew to dislike the LINC system in my '10 230. The GPS feature was cool and well thought out, but it tended to blind me at night, and if I dimed it way down, the screen was somewhat hard to see during the day in the sunlight. Basically, I was constantly adjusting the brightness at first. Eventually, I just put a hat over the screen at night and went back to my spotlight / iphone to navigate. Also, if you like to change your radio station, cd's, etc. alot, the fact that, as the driver, you have to go through the LINC screen system to adjust/change things is annoying. There is a slight delay between each selection you make, and you have to toggle through several screens before you can turn the volume up or down, select a source, etc. If you are pulling a rider, and are fiddling with zero off too, the whole process is just too tedious. I liked it much better when I had a separate set of analog controls that would handle the radio and, a separate set for zero off. I think I would have liked a touch screen as well, as opposed to having to hit small buttons on the side of the screen. Again, this was just my experience, and you may not mind the things that irritated me.

Wake - I had some trouble keeping a clean wake a 75-80ft behind the 230 at 23-24 mph when I put anything over about 800lbs of extra ballast in the boat. With more than 1500 lbs of extra ballast, the wake behind the 230 at 75ft or longer was very inconsistent (in that the lip washed alot) unless I towed at at least 25+ mph, which is too fast for my tastes. I tried many different ways to correct this issue. Perhapse ther is a solution. I could not figure it out.

I will say that, all things considered, if the prices of the 230 had not gone up so much since 2008, I'd probably have bought a '11 230. However, for what is available on the market for $20-30k less, I can't justify buying a 230 right now. Even with the nit picking I've done, I still loved my 230's and enjoyed owning them. I had very few warranty issues - none of which were major - and Nautique fixed everything quickly and without question. I only provide these pro's and con's in order to give you some things to think about when making your choice. Hopefully, some one who has actually owned an x25, and is willing to be honest, will chime in here and give you some insightful feedback as well.

I've only been on an X25 a few times. They are nice boats. They are much smaller than a 230. They appear to throw a nice wake, but I haven't seen one slammed with extra ballast yet.

Here are a few pictures of the 230's I've had btw:
Attached Images
     
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       01-05-2011, 6:58 AM Reply   
I don't mean to say that you'd be any worse off, financially, by buying a 230 over an X25. I think the resale values of the 230's hold up as good or better than other top tier ultra expensive wakeboats. Perhaps it's just industry standard now to lose 20k+ on a boat over the first 3 years of ownership when you buy one of the most expensive boats available. It just boggles my mind how expensive the flagship wakeboats have become.
Old    Adam R (wakecumberland)      Join Date: Oct 2007       01-05-2011, 7:36 AM Reply   
I just sold my 06 X2 this year and these two boats are at the top of my list as well. I have ridden behind the 230 and behind the 220 CSX which is the same hull as the X25 and I crawled around the X25 with Zane for about 30 mins at the Knoxville stop last year. Both boats have their advantages. Some of my observations:

Nautique 230 - ton of storage and room for friends and family. The sun pad is bigger than the X25. Interior fit and finish is really nice. Engine acess is pretty good for service. The wake is great, one of my favorites, but it does seem to be a little sensitive to weight movement. High tech dash with everything on one screen, if you are into that sort of thing. Not a huge fan of the mirror mounted on the windshield.

Mastercraft X25 - Good storage but rear lockers are a little smaller. Perfect boat for my family. Not to big to tow to surrounding lakes but all the room we need. Thought I would hate the small little access doors but they are actually pretty handy, and you can still open the hatch all the way if you need to. Stock wake is the best I have ever ridden(CSX 220). With stock ballast and about 5 people in the boat I personally give it a slight edge over the Xstar. It is more vertical than the endless ramp that is the Xstar. Dont like the new graphics/gel schemes on the Mastercraft, but with so many combinations available most people should be able to find one they like. I like that you can order with the "classic" dash option if you just want traditional guages.

Of the two, the X25 squeeks by to get the win for me, but I haven't been able to check out the MB 21 TWB yet!
Old    mojo            01-05-2011, 9:50 AM Reply   
From my limited 230 experience it's a great boat. Loaded with about 5 people and a couple thousand lbs on top of factory it handles like a cadillac. The wake is washy, but it doesn't see, to affect pop. It's all mental for that specific wake. Personally I'd hope everyone quits buying new boats and prices come down, but i do feel for the dealer networks. Anyway. PCM is a better engine choice. Many will say it doesn't matter, but IMO it it does. Good hunting.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       01-05-2011, 3:09 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironj32 View Post
BTV - I'm in the same predicament as you. Been thinking about the 230 and the X25 a lot this winter.
Choosing between an SAN 230 and an X-25 is not exactly a predicament. It's every wakeboarders wet dream!

Now... writing the check. That's the real predicament.
Old    BTV (BTV)      Join Date: Jul 2010       01-05-2011, 3:42 PM Reply   
Thanks for the great replies.

Haven't considered X-35 because I am on a fairly small lake and heard it is a big water boat and handles like a pig.

Chatwake - great looking boat, the all white would be my choice also. Good to know about new tower, I thought the low fold down would be great, but if no wetsounds I'm prob out. Surprised about having to go so fast to keep clean wake. Is wake cleaner at 65 to 70 feet at 22-24mph? What about pulling beginners or kids at 65 and 17-18mph?

Wakecumberland - How did CSX 220 handle? I'm not overly impressed with my 07 X-2. Don't want to get any worse.

Thanks for the input. Hopefully someone with X-25 will respond
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       01-05-2011, 4:46 PM Reply   
There is a guy on here that recently purchased one (if I remember correctly). Maybe he can chime in and offer more input on the X-25.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       01-06-2011, 5:46 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by BTV View Post
Thanks for the great replies.

Chatwake - great looking boat, the all white would be my choice also. Good to know about new tower, I thought the low fold down would be great, but if no wetsounds I'm prob out. Surprised about having to go so fast to keep clean wake. Is wake cleaner at 65 to 70 feet at 22-24mph? What about pulling beginners or kids at 65 and 17-18mph?
The white looked great, but was much much harder to keep clean than the black boats. It was much cheaper to build because the upgrade color gelcoat costs are insane on the nautiques. It didn't cost any extra for a solid white hull, but the tower was like 700 to get it white.

You should call Justin or one of the other guys at wetsounds and see if they ever got a chance to try to mount up 485's and/or pro80's on the new tower with a z5 mounted. My dealer told me they would not fit.

The wake doesn't wash nearly as bad at 65-70 feet, but if you're slamming the boat with weight, you're going to get much more pop and most people ride further out than 65-70 feet behind the 230. I seriously suggest that you demo a 230 with a bow triangle filled up in the front of the boat and 2 500lb sacks in the rear lockers on top of factory ballast. See if the dealer is able to dial in the wake at 75 feet at a comfortable speed for you. The factory wake does not have the same issues with washing as the wake does when the boat is filled with tons of people or extra weight.

You can pull kids and beginners at slower speeds with no weight and the hydrogate up just fine. The wake will still be there, but it won't be so big that a beginner can't learn on it.
Old    Adam R (wakecumberland)      Join Date: Oct 2007       01-06-2011, 5:56 AM Reply   
I didn't have a chance to drive the CSX but it is direct drive so it probably handles differently than the v-drive X25 anyway. I really had no complaints with the handling on my X2. Take it for a test drive, thats the only way to know for sure!
Old     (will5150)      Join Date: Oct 2002       01-06-2011, 6:18 AM Reply   
Not sure how the newer Nauti's are, but a few years ago, the seating was set so high against the freeboard, it felt like you were riding ON the boat not in it- has this been resolved? I personally really like the X15/25's there is a TON of storage in them and they handle realy well. Great problem to have- at the end of the day both boats are probably awesome- don't forget to consider your dealer. who's going to provide the best service for your $80K+ baby?
Old    Brandon Zubke (bzubke1)      Join Date: Feb 2010       01-06-2011, 7:04 AM Reply   
There's a thread over on the moomba forum with a lot of pictures and input from one of the members who has a relative with an x25. Lots of info and pics check it out. Page 4 is where it starts to get good. The wakeboarding wake looks real nice.

http://moomba.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=11572

Last edited by bzubke1; 01-06-2011 at 7:13 AM.
Old     (will5150)      Join Date: Oct 2002       01-06-2011, 7:43 AM Reply   
Awesome thread- Man I love that boat. If my company goes public this year, I am getting one of those!!!!
Old    Jason Buffalow (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       01-06-2011, 7:45 AM Reply   
Would love to have you try a MB Tomcat 23' or wide body 23'.

Let me know and I can set up no pressure test drive with a rider, not a salesman!
Old    Hate2party (slipknot)      Join Date: Aug 2001       01-06-2011, 1:04 PM Reply   
^ what he said^ save yourself 30-40K
Old    BTV (BTV)      Join Date: Jul 2010       01-06-2011, 7:12 PM Reply   
Thanks Buffalo, where are you located?
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       01-06-2011, 8:08 PM Reply   
The new MB 23 wide body looks awesome from the pictures. The only thing I don't really like is how short the sunpad is. Although it allows for more room in the cockpit I just think it looks kond of funny and makes the sunpad only big enough to fit one person laying out. That is just personal prefence though. saving 30k or so would be something to consider if I was looking at new boat. Unfortunetely if you pay fair market value for the MC(80-90k) and want to sell it a couple years it is going to be worth 60k. That is a huge resale hit. For some the money isn't a big deal. Then again unless I had unlimited funds I would never buy a new boat.

I wouldn't sell the X15 short either. It is a nice roomy boat with plenty of freeboard. If you add the pro tour style ballast it will throw a very nice wake.

I am definately jealous of your situation as I would take any of the boats mentioned. All are very nice.
Old    Jon Doe (Kane)      Join Date: Mar 2010       01-07-2011, 1:37 AM Reply   
It's strange to hear the issues with the 230, I ride behind a 5 year old 220 that has the same problem, you need to go 25mph to get a clean wake even at 60ft.

Try stick ballast in the nose, that helps our 220 massively.

I envy the OP's "predicament"

In my experience Nautiques are sturdier than the MC's, we use our boats in a club environment, no individual owner, so they take a beating. And historically the Nautiques have held up much better that the MC's.
Old    BTV (BTV)      Join Date: Jul 2010       01-07-2011, 6:35 AM Reply   
I was really between the X15 and X25. Liked X15 because it supposedly handles much better than the X25. Like X25 because of rear walk thru, pickle fork, and the wake it supposedly throws. Then I looked at SAN 230, it seemed to have the best of both, but if wake is not clean below 22 I'm not interested (I ride at 22mph and my kids ride at 18mph and 20mph). Really just want something with more room than the X2. Thanks for all the replies. Deciding on a boat and a few snowboarding trips are making the wait for spring a little easier.
Old    Dave Gast (nautiquesonly)      Join Date: Sep 2007       01-07-2011, 7:01 AM Reply   
I own a 236 which is the same hull as the 230. The wash issue guys are speaking of is fixed with more weight in the nose. The boat is awesome with tons of room and drives like a dream with a ton of weight in it. The wake does sometimes get a slight wash at the lip but is not noticed at all when you hit it. The boat is not near as sensitive as the old 220. For some riders they see that tiny bit of wash and think the wake is done or uneven which is not the case. I used to pull INT events that had kids participating in them that rode at 16-18mph with no ballast and had no issues at all. The 230 with stock ballast can be ridden at 22 no prob. We add some weight and I ride at 22.7-23.2
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       01-07-2011, 7:23 AM Reply   
Well, I've owned 3 230's, a 2008, a 2009 and a 2010. I've taken those boats out with several well-known riders. I've put hundreds of hours on my 230's. I always had trouble getting the wake to stay clean at anything over 70 feet at 23.5 mph when adding anything over 1000 lbs of ballast. I moved weight around everywhere trying to keep the wake clean. I couldn't make it right.

If someone could please post EXACTLY what setup they are using to keep a clean wake behind their 230 with additional ballast, I'd appreciate it. I have several friends who still have 230's who have and continue to experience the same issues I had. I'd love to be able to tell them how much weight to run in thier boats and where to put it. I certainly wish I had known.
Old    Adam R (wakecumberland)      Join Date: Oct 2007       01-07-2011, 7:48 AM Reply   
Shaun Murray shared with me his set up of his 230 and it is something like this:

450s on each side of the engine
triangle sac in bow but not full
about 1500 in lead in the seating area

He mentioned that the 230 is all about weight in the middle of the boat. Too much in the bow & stern will make it teeter totter. Too much in the bow and the wake will curl. Havent had a chance to try this out on my buddys 230 yet but if Murr dogg is doing it, it must be legit!
Old    Cory Z (geterdone)      Join Date: Oct 2005       01-07-2011, 8:18 AM Reply   
Go test drive a 230. The best way to get the answer is to go out and test drive. Most likely you will end up buying a 230 if you take it out to the lake. I would suggest bringing your family along for the ride. Get your kids behind the boat wakeboard and wakesurf. The 2010+ models have more ballast in the front so the wash issue is a no issue which none in my area have this problem. Good luck on your purchase either way you are going to have a blast. 5 yr warranty that is transferable does help the resale value or if you decide to purchase a used 230.
Old    Dave Gast (nautiquesonly)      Join Date: Sep 2007       01-07-2011, 8:53 AM Reply   
I don't run mine quit as heavy as some. I never add weight to the rear lockers. I put factory ballast. Ski locker sac 500, one 400 mid ship and one 400 in the nose. if we want it real big we add another 400 center and front. This is the way we set it up with 4-5 core riders that don't mind the bags all over. rope length 70-75ft. I may not have the issue as bad as others because i don't add the weight to the very back to hide it.

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