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Old    Dirk Walden (wakewoody)      Join Date: Sep 2010       11-28-2010, 11:18 AM Reply   
Can you tow a small fithwheel camper with a new ford Raptor? I guess i will find out because i ordered one. it should tow the boat ok. any thoughts?
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       11-28-2010, 2:02 PM Reply   
I dont see why you couldnt, just would have to mount the receiver. I dont know this for sure, and my quick google search didnt come up with much, but i would assume that since it was designed to haul a$$ off road, it will have softer suspension which could hinder its towing capacity due to handling.
as far as towing your boat, it will be easy, a fifth wheel/toyhauler heavier than your boat might be sketchy.

Ill try and dig up some more, i would ask your dealer tho.
Old    rehabmoto.com (xmarksthespot)      Join Date: Oct 2006       11-28-2010, 4:10 PM Reply   
you may want to order a super duty/duramax cause its almost the same price and it will drive w a camper 1000% better and if you want a runner you may want to check out the classifieds on race-dezert.com cause for 40+g's you can get a waaaaaayyyy better truck....good concept but not worth it
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       11-28-2010, 4:43 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by xmarksthespot View Post
you may want to order a super duty/duramax cause its almost the same price and it will drive w a camper 1000% better and if you want a runner you may want to check out the classifieds on race-dezert.com cause for 40+g's you can get a waaaaaayyyy better truck....good concept but not worth it
yea but when you buy a raptor it comes with the warranty.... to get a new truck (dmax or powerstroke) and then put on the parts that would perform the same off road you would lose the warranty. power wouldnt be an issue, but if you touch a new truck you pretty much lose the warranty. so in that respect its pretty cool.
Old    WakePowell Chris (epic1)      Join Date: Oct 2006       11-28-2010, 5:11 PM Reply   
bad idea. That suspension is gonna be toast with all that weight on top of it. The suspension on a raptor is the price of 2 long block v8's. I think we will be seeing a raptor on the classfieds after next season.
I want a raptor bad, but the suspension limits towing. Plain and simple. Its not heavy duty, per say, its long travel race shocks.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       11-28-2010, 5:22 PM Reply   
Raptor for heavy or frequent towing = Really bad idea.
Old    TigeMike (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       11-28-2010, 5:43 PM Reply   
Even a small 5th-wheel will come close to being at or exceeding the payload or the trailer capacity, or even both, on a 1/2 ton truck.
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       11-28-2010, 7:13 PM Reply   
I find this very surprising:

http://www.autotropolis.com/auto-new...crew-news.html

Not only will the new cab length help improve passenger comfort in this Baja-ready off-roader, it will also help to improve many of the essential aspects of a pickup truck such as payload capacity, gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR), maximum gross combined weight rating (GCWR) and maximum trailer capacity. Although the Raptor’s curb weight increases by almost 200 pounds with the SuperCrew option, it now features a significantly higher GCWR – the maximum weight of both the truck and trailer when fully loaded – which is now rated at 14,700 pounds (up 2,300 pounds). Similarly, the payload has been improved to 1,030 pounds (up 100 pounds) and the maximum trailer capacity is now 8,000 pounds (up 2,000 pounds).

That being said, those are typical half ton numbers, and no half ton is going to tow even the smallest fifth wheels well. Also, the Raptor has the 5 1/2' bed, which is not going to work well with a fiver either.

You are also exposing yourself to liability if you're towing over the rated capacity of your truck. Even though it's rated for considerably more, I would not want to tow anything heavier than my little 23' ~5000 lb loaded toy hauler with my half ton.

Last edited by trace; 11-28-2010 at 7:16 PM.
Old    Adam Fullmer (adam4x4)      Join Date: Jan 2009       11-29-2010, 7:22 AM Reply   
Here is a pic from SEMA in Vegas a few weeks ago. They jumped these trucks all day long for 4 days.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by adam4x4; 11-29-2010 at 7:26 AM.
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       11-29-2010, 7:45 AM Reply   
You'll probably want to put some air bags in the back at a minimum. Did you get the Supercrew or just the Xtra cab? If you got the Supercrew I would be worried about the short bed but other than that you might be ok with airbags to help support the weight. Those are bad azz trucks! Congrats!
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       11-29-2010, 11:50 AM Reply   
All Raptors have the short short bed.
Old    WakePowell Chris (epic1)      Join Date: Oct 2006       11-29-2010, 11:51 AM Reply   
I still want a ride though
Old    Dirk Walden (wakewoody)      Join Date: Sep 2010       11-29-2010, 12:14 PM Reply   
I currently tow my 21 foot fithwheel camper with a 08 chevy max halfton 6 liter cerw with a 5.5 box.It does ok. My camper weighs about 5500 lbs. The toung weight is about 700 lbs. Isee that the Raptors load capacity is around 1000 lbs. I just wonder how its suspension will react?
Old    Dirk Walden (wakewoody)      Join Date: Sep 2010       11-29-2010, 12:25 PM Reply   
The reason i am getting rid of the chevy is cause i am mad as hell at gm. My son and i were hunting driveing down a gravel road , hit a large pothole at 40mph, side airbags deployed. Scared the hell out of me. Truck was still under warrenty and gm would not cover it .3500 hundred dollars damage that had to go on my insurance as a collision claim!
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       11-29-2010, 1:53 PM Reply   
dont drive down an unpaved road you arent familiar with at 40mph? especially with a stock truck... (im assuming your chevy is stock) any truck with a good quality lift, some good tires, and some good tuned suspension should be able to hand that, especially with 37"+ tires/ anything with a pre runner long travel setup will handle that as well, but you shouldnt be towing with a prerunner lol. unless you take a chevy 2500 (or other HD diesel ) and prerunner the front, and put a simple leaf/block lift in the rear.
Old    SamIngram            11-29-2010, 2:21 PM Reply   
The rear suspension on the Raptor is junk anyhow... Have National Spring, Alcan, or Deaver build a set of springs for you. They can all build you whatever spring you want. The stock Raptor hast blocks from the factory.

You could also just order the kit that Deaver sells...

You will be fine... just stay within the spec.
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       11-29-2010, 3:21 PM Reply   
Sams smoking crack again.
Old    SamIngram            11-29-2010, 3:51 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by hatepain View Post
Sams smoking crack again.
In what regard?

The suspension in the Raptor is junk when you look at the details given to the rest of the truck.



Ford used stock geometry with a THREE leaf spring to give the Raptor a cushy ride along with a decent offroad shock.

The springs from National, Alcan, and Deaver are all progressive rate springs that will provide both load carrying capacity and an extremely soft ride. Here are the springs that come in the Deaver kit.



The Raptor also uses lift blogs to get the truck to sit higher than a stock F-150.



This is pretty damn close to being old school technology as far as the intent of the truck...



These days pretty much everyone is running either coilovers or quarter ellipticals...



For as much work as Ford put into designing the front end you would think they would spend a little more time in the back end instead of using the same setup they used in 1965...
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       11-29-2010, 4:06 PM Reply   
But its tried and true and you can't argue with the results Ford has gotten. Over a foot of travel out of the rear for a stock truck is damn good and two baja 1000 finishes one of which was on the podium. We put one on an articulation ramp and buried it all the way to the tail pipe with all but the front ramp tire still touching the ground.

My point is its pretty far from "junk"

I won't argue that its not a great tow rig but thats not what it was built for.
Old    SamIngram            11-29-2010, 4:22 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by hatepain View Post
But its tried and true and you can't argue with the results Ford has gotten. Over a foot of travel out of the rear for a stock truck is damn good and two baja 1000 finishes one of which was on the podium. We put one on an articulation ramp and buried it all the way to the tail pipe with all but the front ramp tire still touching the ground.

My point is its pretty far from "junk"

I won't argue that its not a great tow rig but thats not what it was built for.
Yes, great results from lift blocks over the last 60 years... keep using them...

I think the penny counters at Ford convinced them to use that junk three leaf setup instead of a real progressive rate spring like Nationals...

I think those springs will break sooner than later... Just hang out at Mike's Sky Ranch for a couple of months and you will know what I mean...
Old    Dirk Walden (wakewoody)      Join Date: Sep 2010       11-29-2010, 4:34 PM Reply   
So will it work with my camper or not?
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       11-29-2010, 4:46 PM Reply   
It might be time to post the specs on your camper?

But, I maintain that the 5 1/2' bed is not going to work with any non-V-nose fiver.
Old    Dirk Walden (wakewoody)      Join Date: Sep 2010       11-29-2010, 6:17 PM Reply   
Camper is 21.5 foot arctic fox. it weighs about 5500 lbs. Tongue weight is about 6 to 700 lbs I had plenty of room for the hitch in my 08 5.5 chevy box mounted slightly back of the rear wheels. I could turn the truck at a 90 degree angle and nothin would hit. The raptor is rated for the weight, but i dont know what the suspension will do when i weight it. Plus i think i will have to move the camper axels to the bottom of the springs so everything will clear and be level
Old    Dirk Walden (wakewoody)      Join Date: Sep 2010       11-29-2010, 6:24 PM Reply   
One other note, I only use the camper 3or4 times a year.Mostly tow my 09 malibu vlx that i think weighs about 4600 with trailer
Old    SamIngram            11-29-2010, 7:52 PM Reply   
You will be fine; however, due to those silly three leaf springs the back end will sag and probably significantly. In order to make the ride cushy and have all that travel they made the rear springs very soft. When Ford made the rear springs soft they went the cheap route and didn't use a progressive spring setup, instead they just used three piece springs. If you look at the Deaver spring replacement kit above you can see how it has many, many more leaves in the springs. The main load is carried by the long spring and as you add weight, each spring under it starts to bear the load, making it progressive in the way it carries the load. The stock spring has more of a constant or static weight rating, which is pretty low in order to be really flexible.

If it were my truck I would switch the rear springs out and probably go with a National Spring, although that Deaver kit is quality too. I just like National Spring...
Old    SamIngram            11-29-2010, 7:57 PM Reply   
Here is the original article where I stole the picture from... it will give you a much better understanding of the payload. I think it will be fine, but not ideal.
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       11-30-2010, 6:56 AM Reply   
Sam, the Raptor was designed as a pre runner thus the need for a springy, fluid, shock absorbing rear end. If one were to switch it out to the leaf springs you posted you'd gain payload yes but lose all of that. Maybe we should get you a job with SVT so you can show all those engineers what they are doing wrong.
Old    SamIngram            11-30-2010, 7:59 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by hatepain View Post
Sam, the Raptor was designed as a pre runner thus the need for a springy, fluid, shock absorbing rear end. If one were to switch it out to the leaf springs you posted you'd gain payload yes but lose all of that. Maybe we should get you a job with SVT so you can show all those engineers what they are doing wrong.
You absolutely know nothing about prerunners or springs... the decisions they made were for cost savings... The stock springs promote axle wrap which is further enhanced by using a stupid lift block. Do some research! So ALL the prerunners out there running leaf springs with 10 or more leaf springs are for carrying bricks to the job site?? BTW, I AM AN ENGINEER, I have a Masters in Mechanical Engineering from ASU, what do you have?

National Spring and Deaver springs are probably only on about 85% of all the trucks that run Baja, SCORE, etc., that have leaf springs. The other 15% run some other custom setup like Alcan, Carrier, Carli, etc. or other small shop. Look them up and then get back to me.

Yes, this setup is a terrible prerunner setup... lol


Oops, that's Walker Evans old truck that won 7 Championship titles...
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       11-30-2010, 9:00 AM Reply   
Well he would have won 8 if he wasn't using so many springs! HAHAHA!
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       11-30-2010, 9:39 AM Reply   
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       11-30-2010, 10:00 AM Reply   
Ha, ha.... If I were at home I'd get some popcorn.

Simple answer: Yes, it will tow your fifth wheel just fine. If it were mine, I'd add some airbags so that I could stiffen it up when towing the boat or fifth wheel, then go back to stock for daily driving. Once you're out of warranty you may want to consider getting some different springs for the rear end.

Since when does it suprise anyone that a car company would engineer something that "works" on the cheap? Why do you think BMW/Mercedes got rid of dipsticks? It wasn't because they didn't need them. They probably saved $1 on every vehicle that way.

I'm not an engineer, but I can figure out why they went the direction they went.
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       11-30-2010, 11:18 AM Reply   
I'm an ME too, and for the record I agree with Sam. My MIL gave me the T-shirt I posted. Degrees don't mean chit. I know some weldor/fabricator type guys that probably didn't finish HS, yet I would trust their "feel" for design over my own, even / especially if my life were at stake. I also graduated with a girl who had top honors, yet I had to tell her what "Phillips head" meant while working on our senior design project.

Those factory Raptor springs sure look a lot like the springs on my halfton that's served me well for my abusive driving and towing 5000 lb loads, for 200k miles. Air bags are totally the way to go here, though - best of both worlds.

What I don't get is posting a thread asking if something will work, after you've already ordered it. I wouldn't even want to know. Sounds like the OP will be fine, but I still don't see how a 5 1/2 bed can turn 90 with a 5th wheel. The camper is about 8' wide, so the pin has to be at least 4' from the cab, and there's only 18" left!
Old    SamIngram            11-30-2010, 12:44 PM Reply   
Well here you go... It appears that there is actually a forum with a dedicated section for towing with the Raptor...
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       11-30-2010, 1:22 PM Reply   
Sam, my point is that the Raptor does what it was designed to do very, very well. It's supposed to be able to be driven on a regular basis and it can kick ass in the desert and do pretty damn well 4x4'ing as well. Its been hammered with no problems so to say the rear suspension is a total piece of junk, crappy, whatever is just wrong. Ford didn't put a spool rear end in these either for the same reason, its suppose to function on a couple levels. The reviews that I have seen have all been excellent from Popular Mechanics, Motor Trend, Car and Driver, varioius off road publications etc.

Quote:
BTW, I AM AN ENGINEER, I have a Masters in Mechanical Engineering from ASU, what do you have?
You wanna compare cocks and YTD's too.
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       11-30-2010, 1:27 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamIngram View Post
You absolutely know nothing about prerunners or springs... the decisions they made were for cost savings... The stock springs promote axle wrap which is further enhanced by using a stupid lift block. Do some research! So ALL the prerunners out there running leaf springs with 10 or more leaf springs are for carrying bricks to the job site?? BTW, I AM AN ENGINEER, I have a Masters in Mechanical Engineering from ASU, what do you have?

National Spring and Deaver springs are probably only on about 85% of all the trucks that run Baja, SCORE, etc., that have leaf springs. The other 15% run some other custom setup like Alcan, Carrier, Carli, etc. or other small shop. Look them up and then get back to me.

Yes, this setup is a terrible prerunner setup... lol


Oops, that's Walker Evans old truck that won 7 Championship titles...
hey sam, i understand what your saying with the progressive leaf springs, but would a progressive spring work in the small amount of space thats there? If you were to use a progressive spring, and have it actually be beneficial, wouldnt the truck need to sit higher, over all? even if you remove the block the current leaf sits on, there would be minimal arc, so wouldnt a progressive spring not work all that well?
Not saying you are wrong, Just another way to look at it, trying to see where those engineers at ford were coming from.
Old    SamIngram            11-30-2010, 1:30 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by hatepain View Post
Sam, my point is that the Raptor does what it was designed to do very, very well. It's supposed to be able to be driven on a regular basis and it can kick ass in the desert and do pretty damn well 4x4'ing as well. Its been hammered with no problems so to say the rear suspension is a total piece of junk, crappy, whatever is just wrong. Ford didn't put a spool rear end in these either for the same reason, its suppose to function on a couple levels. The reviews that I have seen have all been excellent from Popular Mechanics, Motor Trend, Car and Driver, varioius off road publications etc.



You wanna compare cocks and YTD's too.
You were the one to call me out... and said the springs I suggested would negate the designed intentions of the trucks, which is WRONG, it will enhance the performance of the truck on all levels.

BTW, my cock, Gallo del Ceilo, is way bigger than yours will ever be...

Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       11-30-2010, 1:39 PM Reply   
What about the standards the engineers had to adhere to? it was probably a large combination, but im sure cost (parts, repair, durability) safety in some aspect were all considered and they used what worked the best based on the standards.
as far as axle wrap goes, that shouldnt be a huge deal here, the truck wasnt designed to be raced on cement, i doubt theres enough torque in that motor from the factory to allow it wrap the axle on the street, no less on dirt. the angle the rear leafs are mounted looks as if the geometry itself could deter axle wrap to some extent. but traction bars could be built and installed easy if it proves to be an issue, i could see landing while in WOT causeing some axle wrap.
again, just trying to show another approach.
Old    SamIngram            11-30-2010, 1:51 PM Reply   
Joey C,
Deaver does its homework in the desert and probably has more users of their springs in the desert than any other company with the exception of maybe National, they know what they are doing. With the current spring geometry, including shackle configuration, spring arch has little to do with how the spring actually carries the load and more to do with ride height. The picture above is an extreme case with probably 20 or more inches of travel.

The biggest difference that swapping the springs out for the ones I recommended would be the removal of the blocks. This alone would improve performance across the board in everything from acceleration to towing. The blocks create a "moment" about the axle which induces spring wrap. Spring wrap robs you of a lot of performance. If you look at the Tundra picture I posted do you see that round bar that is attached to the axle direction behind the blue shock mount? That is there to control spring wrap.

I know all this crap because for two years I was THE ONLY contestant from ASU in the SAE Collegiate Design Series Baja Competition. I built the entire car. My junior year for my BS I place 16 out of 54 schools. In my second year getting my masters I placed 3rd losing to Cal Poly and UCSD. Car design was originally what I went to school for prior to getting into real estate.
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       11-30-2010, 2:38 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamIngram View Post
Joey C,
Deaver does its homework in the desert and probably has more users of their springs in the desert than any other company with the exception of maybe National, they know what they are doing. With the current spring geometry, including shackle configuration, spring arch has little to do with how the spring actually carries the load and more to do with ride height. The picture above is an extreme case with probably 20 or more inches of travel.

The biggest difference that swapping the springs out for the ones I recommended would be the removal of the blocks. This alone would improve performance across the board in everything from acceleration to towing. The blocks create a "moment" about the axle which induces spring wrap. Spring wrap robs you of a lot of performance. If you look at the Tundra picture I posted do you see that round bar that is attached to the axle direction behind the blue shock mount? That is there to control spring wrap.

I know all this crap because for two years I was THE ONLY contestant from ASU in the SAE Collegiate Design Series Baja Competition. I built the entire car. My junior year for my BS I place 16 out of 54 schools. In my second year getting my masters I placed 3rd losing to Cal Poly and UCSD. Car design was originally what I went to school for prior to getting into real estate.
Im just saying that ford had there reasons behind what they did. If you want a vehicle that is purpose built and kicks some major ass in the niche you want it to, you will not be able to drive it off the lot. If you want badas$ prerunner, you arent going to go buy an SVT....your going to do a ton of suspension/motor work to something else. You cant go buy a diesel that will out tow anything form a dealership, youll have to mod the engine and the drive train a ton yourself. they are trying to sell cars that can apply to consumers, most of which dont need an insane championship winning pre runner, or an 8 second diesel. see what i mean??


Im not doubting your knowledge, but who cares! at the end of the day, this is just a forum, so take it easy! thats all im saying!
Old    SamIngram            11-30-2010, 2:51 PM Reply   
What the heck are you talking about? My only assertion was that the truck would tow the guys trailer; however, it would work better in all cases with the Deaver Springs. IMO, the stock rear springs, and suspension for that matter, are a disappointment when compared to the front end suspension...
Old    Jacob Ruppert (jacobs0222i)      Join Date: Sep 2008       12-02-2010, 10:25 PM Reply   
Sams right. and chances are that the one that they are racing in the Baja 1000 has deavers on it as well.

I had a ford ranger with a set of simple Deaver spring-over leafs and they make a world of difference. It increased my payload, raised my truck 2" in the back as well as taking out the factory 1" block. It also made my truck handle much better off-road. By adding travel in the back means that the tires are touching the ground longer and the power is getting transferred longer, as well as making it cushy.

I know this because I went to Cal Poly and we beat Sams School all the time. Lol. J/k Sam I didn’t major in engineering just went off roading with a bunch of buddies a lot.


Dirk.. You are going to love the truck, and you will love it more if you take out the block and put in Deavers.
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       12-03-2010, 12:05 PM Reply   
Quote:
and chances are that the one that they are racing in the Baja 1000 has deavers on it as well
From what we are told outside of the Engine being modded to make 500 HP and some general safety mods the Raptor that ran the Baja's is the same as the one you and I can buy on the lot. I believe the first year it was not 4x4 also.

This thread has spurned me to do some research and educate myself some more in this area. I was relating the springs that Sam posted with typical leaf springs i.e. as they relate to a super Duty. However these are largely different in that they are much much thiner and narrower to increase spring and fluidity when put under load/jumping. They do not however increase payload rather they decrease it. Here is a thread I found I decided to emai the sales department at Deaver. They confirmed this although they didn't allow for a 10% of decrease. They did say that they can make some that will allow one to maintain the factory tow/payload ratings.

I still maintain that the stock rear springs are not crap or anywhere bordering that but have certainly learned that these thin progressive high count leaf springs are superior and maybe more in line with what they did with the front suspension.
Old    Bawshogg (bawshogg)      Join Date: Dec 2005       12-03-2010, 7:36 PM Reply   
Hate, I would have to agree with ya there. It's a rough balance for the engineer's in Detroit. They are hit with design elements that have to blend well in several different catagories. Not just 1 trick ponies, when it comes to springs, shocks, heaters, what ever it may be. They have to satisfy more than just the hard core off road guys there.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       12-03-2010, 8:42 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamIngram View Post
You absolutely know nothing about prerunners or springs... the decisions they made were for cost savings... The stock springs promote axle wrap which is further enhanced by using a stupid lift block. Do some research! So ALL the prerunners out there running leaf springs with 10 or more leaf springs are for carrying bricks to the job site?? BTW, I AM AN ENGINEER, I have a Masters in Mechanical Engineering from ASU, what do you have?

National Spring and Deaver springs are probably only on about 85% of all the trucks that run Baja, SCORE, etc., that have leaf springs. The other 15% run some other custom setup like Alcan, Carrier, Carli, etc. or other small shop. Look them up and then get back to me.

Yes, this setup is a terrible prerunner setup... lol


Oops, that's Walker Evans old truck that won 7 Championship titles...

Damn near spit soda out my nose when I read that LOL. Some of the dumbest people I've ever met are engineers, not saying that statement applies to you in any way Sam, and I'm not implying that you are either. I'm just surprised you pulled out the "Engineer" card. Maybe it usually works for you.
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       12-04-2010, 8:45 AM Reply   
Whoah, whoah.... easy guys.

Though I do have to say that there is something to be said for practical engineering (i.e. break something in the real world then work out a more solid fix). We run into this all the time when we turn street cars into race cars. Sometimes you wonder what the original engineers were thinking. Generally there are budget constraints they're working around.
Old    gr8white (gr8white)      Join Date: Mar 2009       12-06-2010, 3:07 AM Reply   
In my opinion if you are gonna be doing some towing don't get it. Why would you want to spend all that money on a truck with a suspension setup for offroad abuse and put a set of airbags on the back and pretty much cancel out what the suspension was intended to do. Can it tow it yes, would I buy that truck to tow? Hell no but I definately would take it out back to the desert a flog the living crap out of it! I added a 3 leaf deaver pack and had to remove the overload spring on my 07 titan and when I hook up my dads 24 foot deckboat it sags like a mother but it also sagged bad before but now its just 3 inches higher in the back. So I can just imagine how low the back of that thing is gonna sag with the stock suspension.
Old    SamIngram            12-06-2010, 5:16 AM Reply   
Uhh, he called out the engineer thing... I just answered...

As far as "practical engineering" goes, one of the greatest automotive engineers in the world did nothing but that... he designed and built the "Mystery Motor" in his garage. The "Mystery Motor" turned out to be the Big Block Chevy...

What else would produce this? That's practical engineering at it's finest...



Gr8white.... good stuff you should be a comedian...
Old    gr8white (gr8white)      Join Date: Mar 2009       12-06-2010, 9:03 AM Reply   
Gr8white.... good stuff you should be a comedian...[/QUOTE]

Oh god why is that? I didn't say he shouldn't tow with and that truck I am sure will haul it with no problems but I am just saying why would you add so much crap (air bags) to the truck that would hinder what it was built for in the first place? And that adding a deaver pack to my truck didn't do squat as far as taking more load it was just to get 3 inches of lift. Did it help with axle wrap? I think it did and the back of my truck sags a bit less with them on however thats not why I installed them, I didn't want a huge block back there promoting more axle wrap. I am sure if you add 30 of the bastards on there sure it would help. So you are saying if he slapped a set of airbags on the back its not gonna limit the stock travel?

Last edited by gr8white; 12-06-2010 at 9:08 AM.
Old    SamIngram            12-06-2010, 9:28 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8white View Post
Gr8white.... good stuff you should be a comedian...

Oh god why is that? I didn't say he shouldn't tow with and that truck I am sure will haul it with no problems but I am just saying why would you add so much crap (air bags) to the truck that would hinder what it was built for in the first place? And that adding a deaver pack to my truck didn't do squat as far as taking more load it was just to get 3 inches of lift. Did it help with axle wrap? I think it did and the back of my truck sags a bit less with them on however thats not why I installed them, I didn't want a huge block back there promoting more axle wrap. I am sure if you add 30 of the bastards on there sure it would help. So you are saying if he slapped a set of airbags on the back its not gonna limit the stock travel?
A couple of things Gr8white,
First, you do not have a set of Deaver Spring leaf springs on your '07 Titan with three leaf springs. You probably have some Rancho crap or some other production spring on your truck. Deaver does not make a production spring for your truck so you would have to custom order the spring packs. In that case the guys at Deaver would have asked you questions, which if answered correctly by, would have solved your issues. I would be willing to bet my remaining left testicle that YOU DO NOT HAVE A DEAVER SPRING leaf spring on your truck.

Second, if you read the thread, I have never suggested the use of an airbag. A properly designed airbag system for this application can be made so it in deed does not limit suspension travel. However, a properly designed spring for this application can easily be made by Deaver Spring or National Spring and pretty much solve the towing issues while maintaining and even improving the offroad characteristics of the truck.

Finally, if I was just towing my boat on the weekends and using the truck for daily driver the rest of the time, I think the Raptor would be awesome! It would be a really fun truck to drive, versus a diesel. That's just my opinion though... carry on...

BTW, it is nice to actually see some people come around and actually do some research... everyone knows that you can't carry two four wheelers and a motorcycle while towing a camper with a Raptor...
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Old    gr8white (gr8white)      Join Date: Mar 2009       12-06-2010, 10:08 AM Reply   
My reply wasn't even directed at you the first time sam, somebody else suggested putting airbags on a Raptor which only has a 6,000lb towing capacity. Here is a link to the deavers I bought for my truck jack,http://www.prgproducts.com/shop/prod...f_spring_pack/ prg greg has them made for the nissan. Rancho crap huh, maybe you put some on you're raptor. Conversation over as long as the guy stays within what the truck is rated for he will be fine. What someone can tow and what they should tow are two completely different animals.

wakewoody here is a link to a forum for the raptor with guys discussing about the tow rating just in case you would like to check it out. BTW wakewoody that truck is gonna be awesome, it would be awesome to have a truck like that in the stable. Enjoy the hell out of it!!!!!
http://www.raptorforumz.com/showthread.php?t=4880

Last edited by gr8white; 12-06-2010 at 10:11 AM.
Old    SamIngram            12-06-2010, 10:23 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8white View Post
My reply wasn't even directed at you the first time sam, somebody else suggested putting airbags on a Raptor which only has a 6,000lb towing capacity. Here is a link to the deavers I bought for my truck jack,http://www.prgproducts.com/shop/prod...f_spring_pack/ prg greg has them made for the nissan. Rancho crap huh, maybe you put some on you're raptor. Conversation over as long as the guy stays within what the truck is rated for he will be fine. What someone can tow and what they should tow are two completely different animals.

wakewoody here is a link to a forum for the raptor with guys discussing about the tow rating just in case you would like to check it out. BTW wakewoody that truck is gonna be awesome, it would be awesome to have a truck like that in the stable. Enjoy the hell out of it!!!!!
http://www.raptorforumz.com/showthread.php?t=4880
You can have half of my left nut, you are talking about an overload spring, while I am talking about a replacement spring, but I will give you half if you want it. That spring has a totally different purpose than a replacement spring. Also, it was not designed by Deaver, it was designed by PRG to their specs... I bet that Deaver would build a one leaf system if you asked them to...

That's a $200 band-aid IMO, a good set of Deavers will cost you at least $1,000... Raptors cost about $1,300 if I remember correctly.

BTW, here is the towing thread...
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       12-06-2010, 10:48 AM Reply   
Why no airbags? It's a simple solution that allows you to have a multi-use vehicle. I'd rather do that than compromise the offroad capability of the truck by adding a leaf or stiffeneing the stock set-up. At least with air bags you can tow your trailer out to the desert, then air down and go for it. I see no downside other than the cost of entry.
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       12-06-2010, 1:09 PM Reply   
I can't imagine why air bags would be a bad thing if they were used as intended i.e when towing or hauling. I suppose it might limit travel some but I think the pros outweigh the cons.

Sam, nice picture. I can't believe they can get all that back there.

When its all said and done I wanna see this thing with the 5th wheel on there.
Old    Mikeski (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       12-06-2010, 11:30 PM Reply   
Seems like this thread could use another opinion from an engineer. At work if I don't like the answer I am getting in a meeting I just find another engineer to join the conversation... haha

I would not buy a Raptor if I were considering a heavy payload. If I understand correctly the suspension is designed to absorb big bumps not big loads. To make it do both would probably require a different set of springs and dampers for each application. It's going to be fairly unstable once it's overloaded.

That Pioneer 18ck trailer in the picture above only weighs 3500lbs but has a 419lb tongue weight and it has a distribution hitch on it. I would guess there is another 1500 lbs of stuff in the back so it's over on payload but under on towing weight. I would rather have it the other way around if I could shift some of the weight from the bed to the trailer I would. I bet gets ugly on the rebound?
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       12-07-2010, 12:25 PM Reply   
Sam, In one of those threads on the svt site, there was a guy who did the deaver springs, and someone had said it decreases towing capacity by 10%, I couldnt find anything on Deavers site or anywhere else to back this up, just wanted you to know thats what I had read over on the forums. Ill see if I can find the thread where that was being discussed.

you cant have something that you can jump, and can tow well with, just wont happen. Otherwise, I would be jumping my F350 haha.
Old    SamIngram            12-07-2010, 1:04 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikebeaverandboats View Post
Sam, In one of those threads on the svt site, there was a guy who did the deaver springs, and someone had said it decreases towing capacity by 10%, I couldnt find anything on Deavers site or anywhere else to back this up, just wanted you to know thats what I had read over on the forums. Ill see if I can find the thread where that was being discussed.

you cant have something that you can jump, and can tow well with, just wont happen. Otherwise, I would be jumping my F350 haha.
Yes, the Deaver marketing material says that a 10% loss in payload capacity is present. If you call Deaver they will tell you why; the springs they are using are from an over supply of spring stock. This spring stock just happens to reduce payload by 10% when used in their design for the Raptor. If you call them when placing your order they can adjust for any size payload that you want and still give you a great ride. You just have to know what your average payload will be...

BTW, go spend a week or two at Mike's Sky Ranch in late September or early November and probably 50% or more the traffic there are 1 ton chase trucks getting ready for the race, probably half of them are F-350's, and most of them diesels.







I have a lot of pictures on my home computer, those are just the only ones I could find online. A lot of the time the chase trucks will be loaded with spare parts and tools galore and actually outrun the actual race truck because they are not limited as far as mods go.
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       12-07-2010, 2:41 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamIngram View Post
Yes, the Deaver marketing material says that a 10% loss in payload capacity is present. If you call Deaver they will tell you why; the springs they are using are from an over supply of spring stock. This spring stock just happens to reduce payload by 10% when used in their design for the Raptor. If you call them when placing your order they can adjust for any size payload that you want and still give you a great ride. You just have to know what your average payload will be...

BTW, go spend a week or two at Mike's Sky Ranch in late September or early November and probably 50% or more the traffic there are 1 ton chase trucks getting ready for the race, probably half of them are F-350's, and most of them diesels.







I have a lot of pictures on my home computer, those are just the only ones I could find online. A lot of the time the chase trucks will be loaded with spare parts and tools galore and actually outrun the actual race truck because they are not limited as far as mods go.
but those trucks arent stock...... its like comparing apples to oranges. I know you can jump one ton trucks, but you need some quality suspension work. Your not gonna jump a stock one ton, but you can jump a STOCK raptor.
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Old    Dirk Walden (wakewoody)      Join Date: Sep 2010       12-07-2010, 4:23 PM Reply   
Boy, I never thought I would start this much of a ruckus! The truck is being built this week. I should get it sometime around the end of the month. Thanks for all the info. I wonder what the tongue weight of the malibu is? i am trying to trade it for a 2011 23 lsv if my 09 sells. Sometime this winter i will get my 5thwheel hitch installed and see if i need the airbags installed for my 3 or 4 camping trips
Old    SamIngram            12-08-2010, 7:39 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikebeaverandboats View Post
Sam, In one of those threads on the svt site, there was a guy who did the deaver springs, and someone had said it decreases towing capacity by 10%, I couldnt find anything on Deavers site or anywhere else to back this up, just wanted you to know thats what I had read over on the forums. Ill see if I can find the thread where that was being discussed.

you cant have something that you can jump, and can tow well with, just wont happen. Otherwise, I would be jumping my F350 haha.
Let me get this straight... your assertion is that the Deaver Springs actually lower the load capacity of the truck and that "you cant have something that you can jump, and can tow well with, just wont happen. Otherwise, I would be jumping my F350 haha."

My original statement was that the stock rear suspension is junk when compared with the rest of the truck and a switch to the Deaver's would be good. Then I made the statement that Deaver Spring, National Spring, or Alcan Spring and hundreds of other custom spring manufacturers could easily allow you to jump your F350. Then you argue that it ain't stock, so it doesn't matter...

Thanks for reinforcing my original and subsequent statements!

May I suggest this book to you, its free...


http://mises.org/books/lessons_in_logic_jevons.pdf
By William Stanley Jevo
Old    Murphy Smith (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       12-08-2010, 8:17 AM Reply   
It must be winter.
Old    Dave (davenk)      Join Date: Feb 2008       12-12-2010, 5:14 AM Reply   
Something I did not notice anyone mention much is the 5th wheel camper. When we go to our local boat and rv show in the winter they do have a few 5th wheel campers they advertise as 1/2 ton towable, however with this Raptor sitting so high, there may be a problem with hook-up between the two. I worked for a Ford dealership a few years ago and this was a problem for some of the higher sitting trucks from the factory, the bedside - top would hit the camper, Ford's tsb was to take the lift blocks out of the rear axle to lower the back a few inches.

Of course with those light weight springs, maybe it will sag the truck enough so this will not be an issue, lol. Then all you have to worry about is headlights pointing straight up in the air, lol.

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