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Old    Joe (joe_788)      Join Date: Aug 2003       08-11-2003, 10:11 AM Reply   
I just started wakeboarding several months ago, and have been riding at the river 3-5 times a week since.

I can throw pretty big heelside and toeside 180's into the flats, but that's all I can do, and it seems like any other trick is a pretty big step. I'm moving to socal in about 3 weeks, and that will probably be the end of my wakeboarding career, so I'd like to learn at least one flip before I'm done.

What is the easiest/safest flip to learn, and why? Any hints or tips that will help me? I've got a good board, (Hyperlite Drifter, Highback bindings) and I ride behind a good boat, (2003 X-10), so now I just need some balls.
Old    tfdhyprider            08-11-2003, 10:16 AM Reply   
i think a tantrum is pretty easy and so is a backroll ...you should try one of those
Old    tfdhyprider            08-11-2003, 10:18 AM Reply   
a scarecrow is also pretty easy...all u do is go in ts. wait until ur board has left the wake to get the max air on ur rotation..hold on w/ both hands and it will spin u 180 while ur in the air..and ull land if u get ur rotation
Old    Kung Fu Wake & Video (dcervenka)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-11-2003, 10:37 AM Reply   
hs backroll - http://www.wakeworld.com/Tricklist/TrickTip004.asp
Make sure to keep edging through the top of the wake, hold on with both hands, and keep your eyes open.
Old    Joe (joe_788)      Join Date: Aug 2003       08-11-2003, 11:37 AM Reply   
Thanks for the link DC, I've looked over that in the past, but I'm still having a hard time visualizing the trick because the guy in the video rides goofy.

One of my friends started riding at the same time as me, and he learned a tantrum in less than 10 tries last week. It looks so easy when he does it, but when I get out there I can't even get myself to try it. It just feels really un-natural. I'm hoping a backroll won't be so scary.

If I could download a video of a guy throwing a heelside backroll riding regular stance, it might help me a little bit.

I took a board to the head awhile back (lots of blood), so I'm still a little gunshy about trying new tricks. Do any of you guys wear helmets?
Old    Kung Fu Wake & Video (dcervenka)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-11-2003, 11:52 AM Reply   
Joe - This video has a slow (and regular) motion regular HS backroll, it took my buddy 3 times before he got it (I show the crashes too....)

!! Only watch the first rider to see successful completions of a backroll. The second rider attempts but never lands any because of bad form/technique !!

http://www.cervenka.net/videos/WatchMovie.asp?MovieID=34&Rating=3&MovieLink=Eveni ngSessions7-8-03.wmv&MovieTitle=Evening%20Sessions%20II%20-%20Flip%20Nation


Kung-Fu Wake (wakeboarder formerly known as DC)

(Message edited by dcervenka on August 11, 2003)
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       08-11-2003, 11:55 AM Reply   
what is kung fu wake?
Old    Kung Fu Wake & Video (dcervenka)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-11-2003, 11:59 AM Reply   
TY - no idea... just bored.
Old    Christopher Stack (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       08-11-2003, 12:24 PM Reply   
lol fu.

joe, i learned a backroll first and then a tantrum - but imho the tantrum is much easier. but some folks have a problem thinking about it because you change edge slight as you come in. for me, it was an easy thing because i've done springboard diving and some gymnastics and backflips seem like a natural thing - you've done a backflip off the side of a pool or boat haven't you?

whereas backrolls don't resemble anything i've done in my life - since i've never skateboarded in a full pipe and done a complete loop. about the closest thing to it would be if i could stand sideways on a rollercoaster as it went through a loop. that's the rotation. but it took me a while to visualize it.
Old    Joe (joe_788)      Join Date: Aug 2003       08-11-2003, 12:34 PM Reply   
Were those his first 3 times ever trying it?

That second guy took a beating!
Old    Joe (joe_788)      Join Date: Aug 2003       08-11-2003, 12:46 PM Reply   
Chris, I can somewhat visualize the tantrum, especially when I'm sitting on the boat watching somebody else do it. It's the approach that really scares me. The real hard cut, then easing off and sort of "backing" into the wake. I've done backflips on trampolines, rope swings, diving boards, all kinds of stuff. For some reason I'm just terrified of approach to the Tantrum.

The backroll approach is less scary for me, progressive edge all the way into the wake. After watching that video I can sort of picture what I need to do. If I go out today or tomorrow I'll try it and see what happens.
Old    Kung Fu Wake & Video (dcervenka)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-11-2003, 12:49 PM Reply   
yes. But what you don't see is the 2+ hours of trampoline time that went into practicing the side rotation.

Too bad you're heading to so-cal because there's a gym (http://www.acrosports.org/) in SF that offers an "Extreme Sports Trampoline" class that allows you to practice on the tramp with a snowboard.

Just remember to keep edging through the top of the wake (It's weird feeling at first because your board will go up and away from the boat) Stay commited otherwise you'll end up like the second guy (notice that he does NOT keep edging all the way through). Keep your legs stiff and both hands on the handle. If you do those 3 things, you'll get the feeling and it will be easy after that.

Old    boofhead            08-11-2003, 2:41 PM Reply   
I have a mate who is the same - good enough to try but not psyhed enough - the other day he just went out and did it - FIRST TIME, guy went nuts - you have to be in it to win it
Old    slob180            08-11-2003, 11:48 PM Reply   
I really have a hard time visualizing the back roll. When you pop off of the wake do you throw your head down toward your toes, like a front flip on land, or do you throw your head towards the tail of your board sort of like a cartwheel??
Old    Tom (laptom)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-12-2003, 4:37 AM Reply   
I throw my heads up and follow the rotation (or the rotation follows the head).

Cheers Tommy
Old    toolfan (toolfan)      Join Date: Jul 2003       08-12-2003, 6:32 AM Reply   
look up and over your lead shoulder as if you were trying to bite your ear. thats what i was told and it works. so far as visualization goes, a backroll is like a reverse of a diving board except that instead of doing a back flip and moving away from the diving board(forward), you are doing a cartwheel but not as extended. rolls are merely cartwheels.
i try to think that my pivot point is where my elbows touch my hips as i tuck the rope in. im a rookie as far as wakeboarding goes, but i can land backrolls with regularity. one last thing, if you try it, make sure you are balls to the wall. you cant half-ass it, at first anyway.
Old    Christopher Stack (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       08-12-2003, 6:49 AM Reply   

quote:

When you pop off of the wake do you throw your head down toward your toes, like a front flip on land, or do you throw your head towards the tail of your board sort of like a cartwheel??




actually both. there are two ways to throw it - the most common is like jacopo said, look back over your lead shoulder. but if you do it mexican style (which is what is used for backroll to blind, double-backs, etc.), then you throw your head down and forward.

watch tyler heinz in this video - he does a mexican backroll:

http://www.wakeworld.com/news/2003/balfour2.asp
Old    Joe (joe_788)      Join Date: Aug 2003       08-12-2003, 8:08 AM Reply   
Ok, I'm going out today at 4pm, I'm gonna try the backroll at least once. I have another question though...

Does it have to be wake to wake? I think if I didn't have to take it wake to wake, I could focus on more pop/rotation instead of trying to get all the way across. (This is how I learned my hs 180).

The gnarly cut is what scares me on a tantrum, but it seems like on a backroll, a real progressive edge from about 10 feet out could get me up and around.
Old    Kung Fu Wake & Video (dcervenka)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-12-2003, 9:17 AM Reply   
Joe - Try it at 55/60 ft. Most people under-rotate digging their nose into the back of the wake. Shortening the rope will help.

Remember.... edge through the top of the wake.


(Message edited by dcervenka on August 12, 2003)
Old    root (rootc)      Join Date: Aug 2002       08-12-2003, 10:01 AM Reply   
The tantrum is easy to throw. Throw it once and you will realize that the wipeouts don't hurt. On the Tantrum you can spot your landing during the whole rotation.
Old    Christopher Stack (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       08-12-2003, 11:23 AM Reply   
i agree with root, you'll realize once you throw it that the wipeouts don't really hurt. although if your bindings are tight you can hurt your ankles if you under-rotate. ;) haha root. just had to say it.

but yes, you can definitely do your backroll w/o a large cut. you can also try it inside out one wake if you want to take it easier.
Old    Dizzy Jenkins (dizzyj)      Join Date: Jul 2003       08-12-2003, 11:31 AM Reply   
so, is the only real difference between a backroll and a tantrum that your edging more (normal) during a backroll, so you kinda corkscrew more, where as a tantrum you stop edging so its more of a backflip (gymnyst syle).
Old    Joe (joe_788)      Join Date: Aug 2003       08-12-2003, 11:50 AM Reply   
"so, is the only real difference between a backroll and a tantrum that your edging more"

If you are in the boat, watching a regular-foot rider, he will spin clockwise on a tantrum. He will spin counter-clockwise on a backroll.
Old    Aaron Huser (ahuser22)      Join Date: Jul 2003       08-12-2003, 11:55 AM Reply   
The difference between a backroll and a tantrum:

Imagine a quarter lyings heads ups, flip the quarter so it is now tails up; that is the movement of a tantrum

Imagine a quarter balancing on an edge, roll the quarter back and forth, that is the movement of a backroll or frontroll
Old    Dizzy Jenkins (dizzyj)      Join Date: Jul 2003       08-12-2003, 12:03 PM Reply   
Ah, I see, this is why i was confused

"from the wakeworld faq:

Q. What's the difference between a roll and a flip?

A. A roll is when the board goes end over end (toeside over heelside or heelside over toeside), whereas a flip is when the board goes tip over tail. The definition of a roll and a flip, in wakeboarding, is based on the motion of the board, not the rider. So what seems like a flip to a gymnast (the rider does a somersault-like move) is a roll to a wakeboarder as the board goes end-over-end (i.e. a backroll). And what seems like a cartwheel to a gymnast, is a flip to a wakeboarder as the board goes tip-over-tail (i.e. front flip)."

so, quarter rolling on its edge would be tip over tail, or tail over tip, where as a tantrum would be toe over heal, or heal over toe. That sound right?

Old    matt moss (mossy44)      Join Date: Oct 2001       08-12-2003, 12:06 PM Reply   
if he is tails up, he is on his head.

aaron is right though. a back roll is more like a "cartwheel" motion, as where a tantrum is more like a "back flip" off the diving board.

i learned the backroll first. i can do botht the tantrum and the backroll now, but i had a harder time learning the tantrum. i had problems with the whole "changing edge" thing.
Old    Lonestar Larry (roskow)      Join Date: Oct 2002       08-12-2003, 2:27 PM Reply   
Funny line of thoughts. I really liked the scarecrow description toward the beginning. My 2cents ( or should I say Quarter) on a back roll is hold on to the handle with both hands good and tight and keep it close. Just keep throwin' em.
Old    Christopher Stack (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       08-12-2003, 2:33 PM Reply   
dj - you're right to be confused. one of the wonderful thing about wakeboarding naming - the backroll really should be a flip given that explanation (tip over tail vs. rail over rail). of course, if you do it mexican it is a roll. but hell, that should be called a hs front roll probably. ;)
Old    slob180            08-12-2003, 6:31 PM Reply   
So now when you guys say "look back over your lead shoulder" is that the shoulder leading the rotation. For example I am Left foot forward so is my lead shoulder for a back roll my right shoulder??? I am so confused!!!!
Old    Christopher Stack (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       08-12-2003, 7:01 PM Reply   
now now...calm down. you've heard of leading hand and trailing hand right? same thing - the lead shoulder is the one you're leading into the wake with - for you it would be your left shoulder - the same shoulder as the foot you have forward when going towards the wake.

so as you come up the wake you'll look back over your left shoulder which will start the cartwheel rotation.
Old    Joe (joe_788)      Join Date: Aug 2003       08-12-2003, 9:22 PM Reply   
I stomped it twice! I just now got home(9pm).

It was sort of weak because I didn't take it wake to wake. I didn't feel like my progressive edge was strong enough to get the height.

Towards the end of my second session I had the driver slow the X-10 down to about 17 mph (the wake was well above my knee). I cut out about 15 feet, and just went for it. My rotation was so far off, I went in head/back first, completely upside down. It didn't hurt though, so my confidence went through the roof.

The second and third try, the board was the first thing to hit the water. But for some reason I was holding the handle with one hand, BEHIND my back (and my back was towards the boat).

On the fourth try I made a conscious effort to keep both hands on the handle. I got the rotation just about right but the board was facing perpendicular to the boat(like I was doing a board slide), and the toe edge caught and yanked my feet right out of the bindings.

The fifth try I had the rotation perfect but I still landed in sort of a board slide and slid out on my ass.

The sixth try I stomped it. Money.

I tried about 10 more times and only landed it once more. I landed on the board every single time, but I was always leaning too far back, and I was in a board slide. I must be doing something wrong because the whole flip/rotation feels scary as hell, and I never spot the landing until the board is on the water. As I'm coming up to the wake, my only train of thought is, "Ok here comes the wake, alright now I'm upside down, Ok now I just landed a back roll." I'm going again on Friday, so I'll try looking over my lead shoulder.

To anybody that wants to get upside down, I highly recommend going for a back roll. I fell almost 20 times and never got even slightly hurt. Just slow the boat down to 17mph (as long as the wake isn't breaking like an ocean wave), and the falls don't hurt at all. You pop straight up, so when you come down you aren't even going very fast. This really was sort of a pussy way to do it, but once I really get the rotation dialed in, I plan on going wake to wake with it.
Old    Kung Fu Wake & Video (dcervenka)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-12-2003, 10:48 PM Reply   
AWESOME! congrats!
Old    Deven Whitaker (nautiboarder)      Join Date: Mar 2003       08-13-2003, 5:07 AM Reply   
Something that helped me was at a camp, they had me stand with my back to my friend, who was about 10' behind me. The coach gave me a boat bumper, had me hold it in the position I would have the rope on my approch, and then taking both hands I would look over my sholder while throwing it to the person behind me. All in the same motion. They said that was the motion to do the backroll.
Old    Lonestar Larry (roskow)      Join Date: Oct 2002       08-13-2003, 6:32 AM Reply   
Good deal dude! I slid out alot, then when I landed I would butt cheek it. As your mental check list goes down, (hold rope,good cut,look over shoulder,etc.) it's easier to start spotting your landing which is huge. Try to take it wake to wake, landing on the down side of the other wake is cake. Casing the other wake is a different story.
I ride with my family mostly and nobody who pushes me, you've given me a little shove. I'm going out today, I'll never throw a tantrum unless I try.
Congats on landing it your first session.
Old    mcfatty (mcfatty)      Join Date: Apr 2003       08-13-2003, 12:10 PM Reply   
Ya'll have pumped me too. I'm going after work.
Old    Joe (joe_788)      Join Date: Aug 2003       08-13-2003, 12:23 PM Reply   
Mcfatty and Larry, if you go and try it today, just be prepared for the fact that your first try will probably be WAY off. My rotation on the first 3 tries was way off. It's really wierd. Just cut hard up the wake and make sure the board goes up and away from the boat, after you leave the wake you will have pretty much NO idea what is happening until you hit the water again. Make sure to look over your lead shoulder like everybody has been saying. I didn't do it, and I'm pretty sure that's why I was so inconsistent on the landing. Good luck!

(Message edited by joe_788 on August 13, 2003)
Old    Dizzy Jenkins (dizzyj)      Join Date: Jul 2003       08-13-2003, 2:18 PM Reply   
congrats, good to hear you can do this without having to go wake to wake. I still think ill get a helmet before I try first tho :-)
Old    Roger Williams (rogerw44)      Join Date: May 2002       08-13-2003, 2:43 PM Reply   
I have been trying backrolls for a few months now (have yet to ride away clean) and after reading this post, i am confused on which way to move my head. This thread says to look over your lead shoulder, but other videos and instructionals like Wake Physics say to move your head toward the tail of the board. These seem to be contradictive.
BTW, I ride goofy so my lead shoulder is my right, and when i look up and over my right shoulder, i do a roll to revert while eating sheit. I have yet to try moving my head toward the tail of the board.
Anyone have suggesstions?
Old    Christopher Stack (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       08-13-2003, 3:25 PM Reply   
congrats joe! i've been backrolls for almost a year and im just now working on spotting my landing. for the most part it's just as you describe it.

roger - actually those two things aren't necessarily exclusive. if you turn your head to look UP and over your right shoulder (even just as you sit looking at this screen), you'll notice your head actually inclines towards your left shoulder, which is the tail of the board.

if you're going to revert that's probably more to do with your handle work. are you keeping both hands on the handle and keeping it at your waist? if you take your leading hand (right hand) off during the rotation you'll automatically start going revert. got any video?

(Message edited by deepstructure on August 13, 2003)
Old    inadrummer            08-13-2003, 3:37 PM Reply   
i have been trying for a few months too... and i believe what they mean is to tilt your head to the tail of the board WHILE looking back over your lead shoulder. the tilting back towards the tail will help you get your full rotation, while looking towards your lead shoulder will direct your roll, as well as keep you ready for the landing!

i was also taught to reef the handle down (like all wake to wake jumps) as well as back to my leading hip. the reason why i havent been able to land these is because i land with my board under me BUT not enough on edge ...so i usually catch my heelside edge and fall back. after reading this forum post, i am realizing that it is because i am bringing my handle out to the side that i am falling. im guessing that the best way to keep me from rotating is to keep my handle down at my waiste, but directly in front of me. does this make any sense????? where do you guys keep your handle when throwing backrolls?

thanks
~Jesse
Old    inadrummer            08-13-2003, 3:38 PM Reply   
haha, christopher got to it before me :-)

anyways back to the handle position?
Old    Christopher Stack (deepstructure)      Join Date: Jun 2002       08-13-2003, 3:47 PM Reply   
well from everything i've learned you pretty much just want to keep the handle close at the waist - at the center of your body. you rotate around it basically. if you're moving it to one side or another you'll start to turn, as that's how you do the rotation on a 180.
Old    inadrummer            08-13-2003, 3:54 PM Reply   
you rotate it around? which way?
Old    Joe (joe_788)      Join Date: Aug 2003       08-13-2003, 6:39 PM Reply   
I had to make an effort to keep the handle in both hands, and I believe it was more towards my trailing hip. Once I was in the air though, it's anybodies guess what I was doing. I have a digital video camera, and I think I'm going out tomorrow so I'll try to video it and get it up by tomorrow night. My buddy (who owns the X10) is all amped up to try it now, so the video should include a whole lot of falling down.
Old    mcfatty (mcfatty)      Join Date: Apr 2003       08-14-2003, 7:53 AM Reply   
We went out wednesday and I tried a backroll. Didn't land it but got close. We were pressed for time so I only got four attempts.

I am so stoked now, going back friday night.
Old    Cliff Griffin (seattle)      Join Date: Mar 2002       08-14-2003, 9:33 AM Reply   
Video's please fellas.

I'm still leaving way to early, and not edging all the way through the wake. The problem I seem to have is, I have no feel for when my board leaves the wake. Either I start too early and have no pop, or I wait to long and end up sprawled out on my back. Any suggestions???

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