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Old     (StanleyWheelhouse)      Join Date: May 2010       10-09-2010, 6:48 AM Reply   
In order to make an educated decision on buying a boat that will be utilized for surfing, one needs to understand just about any inboard boat that is 21 feet in length or longer will throw a surf able wake when you put enough weight in them and have the right board. For instance Danny Lemke's 2007 21 Foot Nautique threw a much better wave than the 240 Enzo at 2010 Worlds. Is it because the 21 foot Nautique is a better boat than a Centurion Enzo? No it does not. Danny's boat was properly weighted. The 240 Enzo at worlds was not.

Recently at Barrel Boss we rode behind a 230 Nautique. That boat did not throw near the wave Danny Lemke's 21 Nautique threw on the waters of Lake Minnetonka. Why you ask? Can the 210 Nautique throw a bigger wave than a 230. Yes. Especially when the 210 is properly weighted. The 230 at Barrel Boss was not properly weighted. The fellow RidaZ at Barrel Boss returned to the waters of Lake Minnetonka and convinced the local dealer the boat needed to be proven. The dealer agreed and apparently when weighted proplerly the 230 Nautique throws a really nice wave.

The other thing one must realize is this. Different Boats are like surfing different breaks. The Enzo makes a different shape wave than the Nautique, the Nautique makes a different shape wave than a Tige and the Tige makes a different shape wave than a Sanger and so on and on and on. Therefore to say one boat or another makes the best surf wake is really a matter of opinion on what you like out of a wave. JamesZ rides a Centurion. Recently he did a photo shoot jam money get down session behind a 247. He said he had to adjust to the wave because it was different. He rode the wave for a few days and killed it. After all we are talking about JamesZ. When he returned to his home break behind his Centurion it took him a bit to get used to the wave. Why? You see different hulls throw different breaks. And different breaks take a minute to adjust to. Aint it cool! We get to surf different breaks.

Regardless of what surf boat you pick, make sure your ballast system is automated and you order custom sacs that completely fill your available compartment space both left and right of the engine and under the seats in front of those areas. This means you do not have to throw 3 tsunami pumps over the side of your boat and fill six different sacs. You flip the switches and pimp fo tha ..................

There are two schools of thought on wakesurf waves and boats.

1) The best wave you can get putting in the least amount of weight.

2) The best wave you can get regardless of the amount of weight.


First, Category 1. There is no doubt the Enzo 230 or 240 win in this category. The hulls on these boats have a V-Shape. The V-Shape allows the hull to produce a very nice wave with less weight. The design works exactly as it should. Mark Sher's 240 Enzo throws a very nice wave. Leah, Mark and I went out for two days straight on his boat and had a blast. I really liked the wave especially for having three people on the boat and no Sacs on the seats. It was very long and very powerful and an absolute great time. Knowing our crew however, we would still throw a 750 on the seat because we like to get down like that.

Second,Category 2. Other boats can produce an Enzo sized wave but most require more weight than the Enzo. A lot of these boats are built as crossover boats. Meaning, they are both good for Wake Boarding, Slalom, and Yes Tubing, and Surfing. This is not to say the Enzo is not good for Wake Boarding, Slalom, and Yes Tubing. Therefore a lot of the hulls get more flat towards the back of the boat. This design requires more weight to be put in the boat to get a surfable wave. In some cases this hull design will require you to put so much weight in your boat you may have to have visible sacs on the floor and seats. There are boats however that will produce a wave with no visible sacs that will rival the biggest of surf waves. This has to do with taking the time to design custom sacs for your boat that COMPLETELY fill the compartment areas and under seat areas in your boat. Custom Sac Design has been done with great care for the Enzo by people who know what they are doing. But not a lot of other boats. Please understand we have custom sacs in our boat the wave with just those sacs and the factory ballast and wedge the wave is really nice. Knowing our crew however, you may still find a 750 on the seat because we like to get down like that.

Is category one better than two? It really should not matter. Why should it matter on how much weight you are putting in your boat? Regardless of which boat you buy. if you can fill the compartments in your boat with custom sacs that completely fill the available area at the flip of a button and if that weight happens to be 3000 pounds instead of 1500 pounds, is one boat better than the other? This is up to you. After all you are buying the boat.

The guys at Inland Run 2500 Lbs in their Enzos with no exposed sacs. We run 3500 pounds in our 247 with no exposed sacs. The Inland Enzos turn about 3200 RPM's and we turn about 3400 RPM's. Is one boat better than the other becase it carrys less weight and runs at less RPM while hauling the mail? That is up to you? After all you are buying the boat.

I have often thought of buying an Enzo and keeping my 247. That way I would have the best of both worlds. The waves are just that much fun.

Finally the best surf boat is the one that fits in your budget. One with an automated ballast system. One that makes you smile every time you see her. The one that your entire family can get into for the day and not feel crowded. The one that fits in your slip, garage, or boat storage. The one your vehicle can handle towing. The one that does not drink so much gas it drains your wallet. The one that actually works when you take it out. We can go on.....
Old    Mike V (vman)      Join Date: Jun 2010       10-09-2010, 8:04 AM Reply   
Well said Wheelhouse. I believe you have reached Guru level with this post.
Old    Matt (duramat)      Join Date: Feb 2008       10-09-2010, 9:34 AM Reply   
Guru? ( )My boy, he has reached stature of "prophet" with that post.

Last edited by duramat; 10-09-2010 at 9:38 AM.
Old    Frank Wolter (wofrankwo)      Join Date: Jul 2009       10-09-2010, 10:13 AM Reply   
ok stanley what are you running for and how much do you want?
Old    JF (inland_surfer)      Join Date: Aug 2002       10-09-2010, 10:28 AM Reply   
wow !
Old    WAlove (masonwakerider)      Join Date: May 2003       10-09-2010, 11:47 AM Reply   
different boats different breaks, any wave i can surf is a good wave...

been dreaming of a purpose built surf boat with a top speed of 20mph with and asymmetrical hull and one great wave
Old    James Harold (jdjjamesz)      Join Date: Mar 2008       10-09-2010, 5:37 PM Reply   
your so on it buddy,love the way your breaking down.You nailed it ,couldnt have been said better..I give you a 10 plus....
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       10-09-2010, 7:41 PM Reply   
Some good stuff there stanley. So much is preference. I think 2 things should be added for consideration, and I am sure this won't surprise anyone.

1. How good the wake is, without over weighting the boat. Over weighting defined by the USCGS sticker. This is important for people/families that want to be in compliance, and also insurance issues and such. We are dealing with this a lot.

2. How well/easy the boat makes a wake on both sides.

#2 is a non consideration for some people, they only care about one side. #2 is also something that I think does not determine which boat is best, necessarily, but IMHO should be a factor in consideration.

There are others, like is it all water, is it all hidden, etc. But those 2 would be at the top of my list to add for consideration.
Old    Dennis (islander033)      Join Date: May 2008       10-09-2010, 9:30 PM Reply   
looks like ragboy missed the point.

Please read the last paragraph of Wheelhouse's post again.
Old    Matt (duramat)      Join Date: Feb 2008       10-09-2010, 11:45 PM Reply   
It's surfing, not rocket science. Sac it and surf it. Sack it how you want. If you want stock, go stock. You want slammed, slam it. You want sacs hidden, hide em. You want sacs on seats, do it. Go with what you feel comfortable with and be safe. Do whatever you want that puts a smile on your face. If you want rocket science please go here: www.Wake9.com

I tire of the nit-picking of what's good and bad thats been posted lately regarding the perfect surf boat. Many here already have the best surfboat for us (the Wheelhouse has spoken on this issue, please don't try to change his words or add unto them) If you don't agree with wheelhouse please go here www.Wake9.com. If you can't get a smile off behind a Malibu, Sanger, MB, Calabria, SAN, Centurion model whether it's 20', 21', 22', 23', or 24' in length then go here www.Wake9.com
Old    Jo Shmoe (joeshmoe)      Join Date: Jan 2003       10-10-2010, 7:55 AM Reply   
you can surf behind a nautique?
The best surfing boat has not even been found
Old    Dennis (islander033)      Join Date: May 2008       10-10-2010, 10:00 AM Reply   
looks like jo shmoe should click one of Matt's links....lol.
Old    Jo Shmoe (joeshmoe)      Join Date: Jan 2003       10-10-2010, 10:16 AM Reply   
Dennis, Jj, the nautiequ probably has a better surf than my boat, until I learn how to sack it out!
I think the best surf will be behind an older inboard boat that could weigh several tons and cost less than $6,000
wasn't there a wakeworlder who had an old wakeboat project, i did a search but found nothing.
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       10-10-2010, 11:13 AM Reply   
@jo, thats a pretty cheap boat. I have seen people get Sanger V215s pretty cheap, good condition, low 20s.
Old     (bigcatpt)      Join Date: Aug 2007       10-10-2010, 12:50 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanleyWheelhouse View Post
In order to make an educated decision on buying a boat that will be utilized for surfing, one needs to understand just about any inboard boat that is 21 feet in length or longer will throw a surf able wake when you put enough weight in them and have the right board. For instance Danny Lemke's 2007 21 Foot Nautique threw a much better wave than the 240 Enzo at 2010 Worlds. Is it because the 21 foot Nautique is a better boat than a Centurion Enzo? No it does not. Danny's boat was properly weighted. The 240 Enzo at worlds was not.

Recently at Barrel Boss we rode behind a 230 Nautique. That boat did not throw near the wave Danny Lemke's 21 Nautique threw on the waters of Lake Minnetonka. Why you ask? Can the 210 Nautique throw a bigger wave than a 230. Yes. Especially when the 210 is properly weighted. The 230 at Barrel Boss was not properly weighted. The fellow RidaZ at Barrel Boss returned to the waters of Lake Minnetonka and convinced the local dealer the boat needed to be proven. The dealer agreed and apparently when weighted proplerly the 230 Nautique throws a really nice wave.

The other thing one must realize is this. Different Boats are like surfing different breaks. The Enzo makes a different shape wave than the Nautique, the Nautique makes a different shape wave than a Tige and the Tige makes a different shape wave than a Sanger and so on and on and on. Therefore to say one boat or another makes the best surf wake is really a matter of opinion on what you like out of a wave. JamesZ rides a Centurion. Recently he did a photo shoot jam money get down session behind a 247. He said he had to adjust to the wave because it was different. He rode the wave for a few days and killed it. After all we are talking about JamesZ. When he returned to his home break behind his Centurion it took him a bit to get used to the wave. Why? You see different hulls throw different breaks. And different breaks take a minute to adjust to. Aint it cool! We get to surf different breaks.

Regardless of what surf boat you pick, make sure your ballast system is automated and you order custom sacs that completely fill your available compartment space both left and right of the engine and under the seats in front of those areas. This means you do not have to throw 3 tsunami pumps over the side of your boat and fill six different sacs. You flip the switches and pimp fo tha ..................

There are two schools of thought on wakesurf waves and boats.

1) The best wave you can get putting in the least amount of weight.

2) The best wave you can get regardless of the amount of weight.


First, Category 1. There is no doubt the Enzo 230 or 240 win in this category. The hulls on these boats have a V-Shape. The V-Shape allows the hull to produce a very nice wave with less weight. The design works exactly as it should. Mark Sher's 240 Enzo throws a very nice wave. Leah, Mark and I went out for two days straight on his boat and had a blast. I really liked the wave especially for having three people on the boat and no Sacs on the seats. It was very long and very powerful and an absolute great time. Knowing our crew however, we would still throw a 750 on the seat because we like to get down like that.

Second,Category 2. Other boats can produce an Enzo sized wave but most require more weight than the Enzo. A lot of these boats are built as crossover boats. Meaning, they are both good for Wake Boarding, Slalom, and Yes Tubing, and Surfing. This is not to say the Enzo is not good for Wake Boarding, Slalom, and Yes Tubing. Therefore a lot of the hulls get more flat towards the back of the boat. This design requires more weight to be put in the boat to get a surfable wave. In some cases this hull design will require you to put so much weight in your boat you may have to have visible sacs on the floor and seats. There are boats however that will produce a wave with no visible sacs that will rival the biggest of surf waves. This has to do with taking the time to design custom sacs for your boat that COMPLETELY fill the compartment areas and under seat areas in your boat. Custom Sac Design has been done with great care for the Enzo by people who know what they are doing. But not a lot of other boats. Please understand we have custom sacs in our boat the wave with just those sacs and the factory ballast and wedge the wave is really nice. Knowing our crew however, you may still find a 750 on the seat because we like to get down like that.

Is category one better than two? It really should not matter. Why should it matter on how much weight you are putting in your boat? Regardless of which boat you buy. if you can fill the compartments in your boat with custom sacs that completely fill the available area at the flip of a button and if that weight happens to be 3000 pounds instead of 1500 pounds, is one boat better than the other? This is up to you. After all you are buying the boat.

The guys at Inland Run 2500 Lbs in their Enzos with no exposed sacs. We run 3500 pounds in our 247 with no exposed sacs. The Inland Enzos turn about 3200 RPM's and we turn about 3400 RPM's. Is one boat better than the other becase it carrys less weight and runs at less RPM while hauling the mail? That is up to you? After all you are buying the boat.

I have often thought of buying an Enzo and keeping my 247. That way I would have the best of both worlds. The waves are just that much fun.

Finally the best surf boat is the one that fits in your budget. One with an automated ballast system. One that makes you smile every time you see her. The one that your entire family can get into for the day and not feel crowded. The one that fits in your slip, garage, or boat storage. The one your vehicle can handle towing. The one that does not drink so much gas it drains your wallet. The one that actually works when you take it out. We can go on.....
Wheelhouse for President!!!! Even if he rides a Malibu!!! LMAO!!!!
Old    Trevor Gleadhill (trevorg7)      Join Date: Mar 2008       10-10-2010, 6:43 PM Reply   
Quote:
You see different hulls throw different breaks. And different breaks take a minute to adjust to. Aint it cool! We get to surf different breaks.
This is so true and even with the same hull. Lakesurfer and I have the same boat and our waves are completely different. Funny what a few hundred pounds will do.

T
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       10-10-2010, 6:46 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by trevorg7 View Post
This is so true and even with the same hull. Lakesurfer and I have the same boat and our waves are completely different. Funny what a few hundred pounds will do.

T
We have a 24Ve, which is supposedly the same hull as the 22ve and RZ2, just 2 feet longer. Its amazing the difference just those 2 feet make. Its a lot of fun experimenting with both, and seeing how they react.
Old    Blair Neher (BlairJ)      Join Date: Jun 2010       10-11-2010, 10:30 AM Reply   
Well put Mr. Wheelhouse.

Ragboy, no offense dude, but your post is transparently trying to drive this thread in a direction it was not intended. You do alot in the sport so I am not discrediting you at all, but not every boat posts needs a reminder that Tige can produce a good wake with minimal weight, and on both sides. We know bro!
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       10-11-2010, 11:50 AM Reply   
@blair, fair enough. That is not my intent. Here is the thing...

I just think we need to be careful throwing out all of these weights, without any consideration of being overweight. I didn't wax on, just wanted to throw that out there. There are so many lurkers, and newer folks that check these forums, and they see some of our wakes, and they want to get out and do it on their own boats. I just think we should be a "bit" more concious of that when we throw weight setups around more than 2500 or so. Just my thought. And no offense to anyone, including stanley, but looking at the weight issue, and then riding without a PFD, I don't think its setting a good example for the sport. Stanley knows I respect and appreciate what he does, but I guess I just can't stop myself from throwing that out there, for whatever that's worth.

On the 2 sides issue, this has nothing to do with Tige. My passion on that has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that I have 5 kids that are all goofy. I would just love to see more consideration thrown to both sides in these conversations for that reason. There are LOTS of goofy riders out there, and I just want manufacturers to remember that.

Anyway, I understand his point, I think its a great one. If you rode with me and my family, you would understand why I was passionate about those things. And you are welcome. Anyway, that is my reason, if you want to discuss more, feel free to contact me or start another thread.
Old    WakeDoc (riverrunner)      Join Date: Aug 2006       10-11-2010, 12:02 PM Reply   
Beat it ragboy!!! BEAT IT!!!
Attached Images
 
Old    Anthonyv911 (tonyv420)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-11-2010, 1:17 PM Reply   
Well said Stanley Wheelhouse!! No one boat is going to be the best, because we all have different opinions and criteria that decide what we like most.
Old    Anthonyv911 (tonyv420)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-11-2010, 1:21 PM Reply   
Robert, don't you pretty much have to break the weight capacity on the sticker of every boat, in order to produce a good wave? Just wondering.
Old    Mike V (vman)      Join Date: Jun 2010       10-11-2010, 2:58 PM Reply   
I'd recommend never busting the sticker capacity.....Just use fuzzy math!
Old    Dennis (islander033)      Join Date: May 2008       10-11-2010, 3:18 PM Reply   
Hijack!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ragboy View Post

..... or start another thread.
Perhaps ragboy should take his own advice, instead of wrecking Wheelhouse's thread.

Hijack over!
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       10-11-2010, 3:25 PM Reply   
@anthony, no you don't need to overweight. I know on the Supreme, and our RZ2, you do not. Even the "Breakin in the RZ2" day, I believe I was right at the limit. I am releasing a podcast tonight, about our new custom sac, about 1350 in rear corner and 400 up front of water ballast, then people. I believe this is also the case with the enzo on the regular side, it doesn't need to overweighted, but I am not sure. On the goofy, I think it does need to be overweighted, but again, I don't know for sure.

You can look at this video, its raw, this video footage will be in the podcast. This is NOT overweighted. The first 2 clips are a couple hundred pounds underweight, the rest we had more people, and probably right near the line.



And if this is no concern to people, that is fine. But look at it this way, I want wakesurfing to be legal forever, for my kids to enjoy. As an industry, we have to work at doing it within the law, and safely, to keep those that already have a axe to grind against wakesurfing from gathering up ammunition that we hand them.

I am always going to come from the keep it safe, family perspective, you may not. I don't think I am suffering though, we had a blast on that wake.

The videos posted recently of the supreme, I am 90% sure they were underweight. And this is NOT about pushing tige, as a matter of fact, we have been working to demo world class wakesurf boats at the Polar Bear Event. The thread is here, and I will be posting some updates today.

http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=783645

We have our RZ2 of course, a Supreme V226 from CMS, and we were hoping for an Enzo. The one we had, is older, a repo at CMS. lakesurfer said in the thread above not to bother if it didn't have a adjustable trim. Grant and I didn't want to leave Centurion out. We contacted Centurion and Centurion/Brett Potts are bringing a beautiful orange and black 2011 Enzo 230+ to the event. 3 World class surf boats in one place to demo. As Stanley said above, pick what works for you. I am putting my money and my time to make that happen for many people. We could have easily just used the older Enzo, but we didn't want to handicap the enzo at all, and we worked to make that happen.

Now I wish we had a Malibu 247 and a Sanger V237, I really do. I contacted Malibu and Sanger several times. Maybe next year. So "beat me up" for bringing up safety and including goofy riders, but I am putting my money where my mouth is to give people the best demo of the best boats, as good as I can provide.
Old    WakeDoc (riverrunner)      Join Date: Aug 2006       10-11-2010, 4:52 PM Reply   
Wheelhouse puts up a great well rounded thread that WakeDoc and all oter dig and ragboy kills it with his tige propaganda, oh I am just saying, whatever, will it ever end?
Old    Anthonyv911 (tonyv420)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-11-2010, 5:16 PM Reply   
I guess I really don't have to overweight my Avy to surf, but to get a sick wave one must use fuzzy math like Mike V says.
Old    Dennis (islander033)      Join Date: May 2008       10-11-2010, 5:26 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyv420 View Post
I guess I really don't have to overweight my Avy to surf, but to get a sick wave one must use fuzzy math like Mike V says.
Ragboy's math is real fuzzy.....Ragboy+D.Horton+his above water ballst is @ weight for his boat 2455lbs.

Keep in mind he surfs with a large family + gear + food and drinks ontop of this^^^.

I bet he is always over weighted...as much as 600lbs....lol.
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       10-11-2010, 6:00 PM Reply   
First, we don't bring a lot of gear and drinks and stuff. Our boats are in slips, so we don't go out where we need to take snacks and food, just some ice and drinks. Just towels, PFDs, couple boards, thats it. Anyone that rides with us can attest to this, and the video you watched above, when we have extra people, we take the pontoon boat out also, keep all boards and food on it, just people on the RZ2.

The night video of our first test, was ONLY me and maddie and thomas and Jesse in the boat. And not even drinks. That is maybe 2300 lbs with custom sac, less on goofy. The next morning, when it is light, in that video above, we added Chris Martinez, 185. I believe our limit is 2550. Dennis was NOT there, and again, the pontton had everything on it. I don't even have an anchor in that boat, just a 5 lb river thing. After those first clips, and then you see Jocelyn, and mitch, and stuff, part of that time I was NOT on the boat. The wake with Jocelyn in the beginning, I was working on the 24Ve and had to hit the head. I came later. Then we had more people in the boat, and we didn't fill the sacs all the way, but mainly because they were leaking out, we have some tweaking to do.

So its not fuzzy math. But I am not going to sweat myself or anyone else for being hella close. I purposely left the video camera so you could see the rub rail is above water, just kissing almost the entire time. I think there was one time where we were turning or something and it got a bit under. I was very careful that those first clips had minimal people, so that you could see with those sacs, you didn't need to supplement with a ton of extra people or weight.

So during that day, is it possible I was overweight? Sure, we would fill the ballast all the way, and then let leak out, so for a bit probably, but not 600 lbs.

I will have 25+ people on top of the people that have already seen this in my boat, riding behind it on Saturday, you are welcome to ask any of them. None of the boats will be overweighted for the event, and we will take lots of video.

But it goes back to what stanley said, if that makes you happy, fuzzy math and that sick wake, great. We just need to keep in mind, that wakesurfing already has municipalities gunning for it. Better for us, and the industry to learn to make great wakes, and great wakesurf boats that stay within legal limits for our daily surfwakes. This will help ensure us all we will have a legal sport for years to come.
Old    Dennis (islander033)      Join Date: May 2008       10-11-2010, 6:44 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ragboy View Post
....So its not fuzzy math....
I beg to differ....

~400 (Rag) + 1750 (ballast) + ~400(family) + ~150 (full wetsounds + batteries)=~2700lbs

No extra peeps, food or gear.......you are over the boats weight capacity.



Sorry Wheelhouse, I mean this thread no harm!
Old     (StanleyWheelhouse)      Join Date: May 2010       10-11-2010, 6:48 PM Reply   
Please note the NMMA "capacity plate" you refer to is a requirement of the boat manufacturer to place on the craft, as it leaves the factory, for the MFG to be NMMA certified.

The plate is not "required" to be on the boat thereafter. The information and "specs" are not law, and the authorities cannot cite you for being in variance with the plate.

If there is an accident, or you are operating carelessly, the spec's will be made know to the Judge/District attorney/Insurance carrier. These agents/agencies may hold that knowledge against you. (If there is a crime/tort involving the boat)

The weight of the boat is the weight of the boat, so fuel, ice, fish, gear, and another liquids should be considered as the "max weight."
Same "weights" should be considered when trailering. (Both for Trailer capacity and Towing rig capacity)

The requirement for a placard is vessels under 20 ft. Up to 26 feet if it is an NMMA Certified builder, has a placard as well, though it is not a USCG requirement. Above 26 feet falls under the Yacht Certification program, whose placards do not include a persons capacity. Any builder who wishes to, may set a capacity level on any boat, as long as they understand that by doing so they accepy liability for setting that limit. On boats between 20 and 26 feet, there is a formula as used by the NMMA in the boat certification program. The formula however takes no consideration into the type of boat or its intended purpose, but instead uses only a hull displacement formula and weight allowance. Any builder has the right to simply downgrade these numbers to what they feel is proper. What the NMMA now uses to supercede the formula is the number of places a person cn safely sit according to the ABYC standards, while the vessel is underway at full power. It is not unreal for a 25 ft walkaround to have a capcity of 12 persons, which would be ridiculous. So by using the seating, it will typically limit that number back to a maximum of 8, which is what the builder will use (they can downgrade even more if they want to). Each seated position must meet specific criteria, and except for the driver, must include some sort of hanhold device, except for middle seats of bench type seats. the seats used for the rating must also be standard equipment

Weights of fuel, batteries, etc which are deemed necessary to run a powered boat are not part of the weight capacity. Those items are already factored into the formula used to determine the persons capacity and the max weight capacity. Boats less than 20' are REQUIRED to have the capacity plate. NMMA certified manufacturers must have an NMMA certified capacity plate for boats under 26'. Over 26' the NMMA reqires a Yacht Certification plate, which does not include any capacity information. Between 20 and 26 feet, there is no real formula to use because the formula for the under 20 class will give back numbers that are just not real world compatible (like a 12 persons capacity for a 23 ft walkaround). So basically at this point it is whatever the manufacturer decides they want to be considered liable for. The NMMA guideline then says that you have to use the number of safely seated positions while the boat is underway (over 5 mph). A safely seated position is defined by adequate room to sit, and some type of approved handhold for every position except the driver or the middle sections of a bench seat capable of more than 2 persons.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       10-11-2010, 7:01 PM Reply   
The original thread that Stanley cleaned up had some good questions in it:

http://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-...ity-plate.html

I could swear that Ed S had a slightly different conclusion based upon some research he did. Does anyone know where that post from Ed is? It was somewhere here on WW, I do believe.
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       10-11-2010, 7:44 PM Reply   
That is good information. I have been in a boat, where the operator was ticketed for being overweight, and the officer used the placard to base what is "safe". Its just like on the road, a cop can give you a ticket for going the speed limit, if he deems the conditions are unsafe. Of course, he has to back that up.

I think that is why, for me, I am not worried about being a tad over here or there, but generally want to stick to that guideline. We are having an event this weekend, and I also have to make sure that all drivers have received a certificate for a boater's safety course.

You said this:

If there is an accident, or you are operating carelessly, the spec's will be made know to the Judge/District attorney/Insurance carrier. These agents/agencies may hold that knowledge against you. (If there is a crime/tort involving the boat)

Thats pretty much enough for me, I don't want to be liable.

Look, if you guys want to clearly weight your boats over that limit, and/or not wear PFDs while surfing, fine, that is between you and yours. We just need to be careful, and I personally think it shouldn't be the norm, or eventually, it will come back to bite the sport.

Stanley, you know I can't wait to come get a look at your wake, we have chatted about that. And DJJamez, he is nuts, you gotta love it. I correspond with him all the time, and I think those things are great to push the sport. But this thread is more about what makes a great wakesurf boat, that makes us/you happy, on a daily basis. At least that is how I took it. With that in mind, in that context, we should be careful.

I do think there is a forum for "which boat can make the baddest a$$ wake", who cares about weight. In an exhibition type setting. I want to do a podcast on just that, filming Stanleys 247, and DJJamez boat, etc.

Anyway, I agree that placard is not law, but it is going to be used to help determine what is safe, if the sh*t ever hits the fan.

One more thing, those first several clips of that test, again, Thomas and Maddie and Jessie do not weigh 400 lbs, maybe 200. Maybe.
Old    Dennis (islander033)      Join Date: May 2008       10-11-2010, 8:02 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ragboy View Post
...One more thing, those first several clips of that test, again, Thomas and Maddie and Jessie do not weigh 400 lbs, maybe 200. Maybe.
So you don't go on your boat with your full immediate family? 4 kids + wife +you with RJ surfing out back = how much people weight is that?

Face it ragboy you over weight your boat compared to your capacity sticker.
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       10-11-2010, 8:18 PM Reply   
ok, well, there are 2 extra spots for this weekend, feel free to come see for yourself. The Tige RZ2 Pro ballast system holds 2000 lbs stock, and is designed to be used for wakeboarding or wakesurfing. Wakeboarding, assuming you could fill the whole thing. The Surf ballast system, is like 1650, I think, somewhere around that. My new custom system, we never fill any weight on the opposite side, only one side, and we are under the stock system.

We run around the edge of the limit, but most of the time we are right at or just under the limit. We are at the point where if pulled over, I would fill safe arguing a ticket.

Reminds me of a call I got a couple of weeks ago from a friend with a Supreme in another state. He was pulled over, he was not overweight, but the officer threatened a ticket for being unsafe, just because he was listed over. The officer told him to straighten up the boat or get a ticket. If we fly low and avoid the radar, it will be better for all of us.
Old    jkw (lakesurfer)      Join Date: Jul 2009       10-11-2010, 8:32 PM Reply   
One more good thread ruined. I really am starting to wish that WW could be Wake9 free. Can we just have a thread for what the OP started it for? This post was suppose to basically be a "big group hug" and now we are arguing about whether you are a few hundred pounds over/under of an estimate max weight limit (which I am sure is very conservative).

We are all adults. Lets just ask everybody to be safe and move on.

@Ragboy: We all know that you are the champion for equal rights for goofy riders. Can you please just take a break from your campaining and pick it back up next season Every single post does not have to come back to Tige, equal wave on both sides, your definition of fully automated system, etc. If we want 24hr coverage of these topics we can all go to Wake9.com.
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       10-11-2010, 8:37 PM Reply   
Sure, but please notice, there are no wake9 watermarks, or anything like that. I don't even have the site in my name. I will refrain except for finishing out the polar bear event thread, and unless someone asks me a specific question.
Old    Matt (duramat)      Join Date: Feb 2008       10-11-2010, 9:35 PM Reply   
Some things are certain in life: Death, Taxes, and Rags love for Tige that he'll hijack and spam it. He!!s bells Rag, go back to your own website and carry on there and let us be. Everyone is so tired of your posts and hijacks of threads. Blah, Blah, Blah, our Tige, this, our Tige that We tire of the constant bashing of all/any brand that you deem not good or sub-par or lousy. You may have started off in this sport withthe right intentions but lately you have your head so buried in deep a John Deere tractor couldn't pull it out of a Tige exhaust flap. You have succeeded in ticking off more in this sport than unifying. Seriously you have your own site, take care of that site and let this one be. We tire of the Wake9 spam. I'd like to come here and read how others are weighting their boats without you hijacking it to your tige and how it outperforms. You have hijacked the WW Surf forum and claimed it as Wake9. We get it. Can we please hear what others are doing and not you when it's their boat? Let them have a voice without you interfering, objecting or hijacking. I could care less what boat it is as long as were having fun and not trying to make it rocket science. Please go back and re-read "Wheelhouse's proclamation to the sport" and read it again and again till you have it memorized. Until then go here www.Wake9.com
Old    WakeDoc (riverrunner)      Join Date: Aug 2006       10-12-2010, 7:18 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ragboy View Post
I will refrain except for finishing out the polar bear event thread, and unless someone asks me a specific question.
How about you keep the wake9 polar bear event thread where it belongs on wake9, I for one do not need to see multiple links to it on every thread on the wakesurf forum here on WAKE WORLD. I like others are tired of reading your constant tige/wake9 advertising, take it somewhere else.
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       10-12-2010, 9:20 AM Reply   
Wheelhouse,

Thanks for the write up. I couldn't say it better myself! Your boat throws a fat wave.
Old    david pierce (desotodave)      Join Date: Mar 2009       10-12-2010, 9:57 AM Reply   
Great write-up Stanley!!! That is the best post we have had here in a long time.

Too bad RAGGY BOY has to ruin everything with his Tige hype. Here's to Ragboy going back to Wake9 and staying there!
Old    Anthonyv911 (tonyv420)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-12-2010, 11:00 AM Reply   
OK nice to know that the capacity sticker is just a recomendation and not USCG law. Thanks Stanley for the info. Hey can I take the sticker off? Last time I was pulled over the po po wanted to see it. I live here in Wash. Do you think it's a good idea to argue with the po po if they flip me some dung about takin it off? Where can I print out some literature about this that I could show them next time they run me down. I would rather just remove it, because I am always about 800lbs over that recomended weight.
Old    Drew Richardson (surffresh)      Join Date: Jun 2010       10-12-2010, 11:02 AM Reply   
Wow, what up with the wake 9 haters, anyhow that was me in FL where the law man said "in my opinion your boat listing is unsafe" and all he knew about was one 400lbs sac on the bench seat. I am going to plumb and "Enzo Sac" the Supreme if it does not sell before winter. I'm sure ole law man would really freak if he saw a 1400LBS hidden. I spoke to the President of WSIA based right here in Orlando (watersports industry assoc) and he had lunch with the head of Orange Co. marine Police to educate and set up a Wakesurfing / Wakeboard ballast coast guard approved presentation with all of our local Marine Patrol Police, he assured me not to worry about being pulled over for listing anytime soon.
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       10-12-2010, 1:21 PM Reply   
Nice write up Stanley! Too bad the bitter Centurion owners had to go and trash the thread.
Old    Craig F (craig_f)      Join Date: Feb 2008       10-12-2010, 7:00 PM Reply   
Tony- My rather limited understanding is that the capacity sticker is required on smaller boats, I seem remember that you don't HAVE to have it on boats over 20 feet. (also my memory sucks so I could be completely wrong about this).
Old    Frank Wolter (wofrankwo)      Join Date: Jul 2009       10-12-2010, 10:35 PM Reply   
i have to think that if you were going to get pulled over by law enforcement for being " over listed, over burdened, over capacity or over crowded " and you did not have your capacity sticker on your boat this would further irritate the law enforcement person ....... thats my own thinking
Old    Anthonyv911 (tonyv420)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-13-2010, 9:17 AM Reply   
Ya , I agree Frank. I guess as long as he doesn't look in my locker and under the seat, I should be fine with leaving it on. Yo, Timmy I own a Centurion and I'm not bitter bout anything. Don't include me in that statement please. LOL
Old    Trevor Gleadhill (trevorg7)      Join Date: Mar 2008       10-13-2010, 12:19 PM Reply   
I owned a Centurion and was bitter but I sold it and bought a Tige. Now, well, I feel much better!

HAHA

T
Old    Anthonyv911 (tonyv420)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-13-2010, 1:38 PM Reply   
Let me see a new RZ2 for 65k plus some, or my Avy for 38,000 new in 2005. I don't believe I can or will ever be able to afford a Tige' HAHA
Old    Anthonyv911 (tonyv420)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-13-2010, 1:39 PM Reply   
@ Trevor, were not on here to trash anyones choice of boats, I guess you just don't get it like the rest.
Old    david pierce (desotodave)      Join Date: Mar 2009       10-13-2010, 2:12 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyv420 View Post
@ Trevor, were not on here to trash anyones choice of boats, I guess you just don't get it like the rest.
RIGHT!!! Thats Rag Boys job!!! Nobody else can play!!!
Old    Trevor Gleadhill (trevorg7)      Join Date: Mar 2008       10-13-2010, 5:58 PM Reply   
@Anthonyv911 - levity my friend. It was a joke, laugh...it is good for you. I was hoping the HAHA would give it away but now it is spelled out.

I still own the Avy and won't quit my day job to become a comedian.

T
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       10-14-2010, 7:28 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyv420 View Post
Let me see a new RZ2 for 65k plus some, or my Avy for 38,000 new in 2005. I don't believe I can or will ever be able to afford a Tige' HAHA
Or you could have a new Enzo 240 for 75k...Nice attempt at saying Tige's are pricey but the truth is ALL wake boats are over priced!
Old    Anthonyv911 (tonyv420)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-14-2010, 10:09 AM Reply   
Its all good Trevor, I'm not the best comedian either. LOL @ Timmy you are right they are all over priced. Even in 04 when I bought mine I thought 38k was kinda steep. I really need to win the Lotto!
Old    Rio Surf09 (riosurf)      Join Date: Oct 2010       10-14-2010, 12:12 PM Reply   
Whats up everyone? I havent seen any mention on the new Supreme V226, I have been looking into them and they seem like excellent surf boats, and a pretty good boat for everything else. whats your thoughts on the boat?
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       10-14-2010, 12:25 PM Reply   
Rio, it's an awesome boat. Good price, great wave, good looking in my book.
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       10-14-2010, 1:01 PM Reply   
Anyone see a wave off of that new Epic 21v Rip Curl edition yet? It has 3 wake plates and a different swim platform.
Old    Jason Johnson (JasonDJ)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-14-2010, 1:32 PM Reply   
No, but interesting design...3 wake plates, 2 rudders....

Has anyone added a side wake plate to help form the surf wake?

Video on the Epic 21V Rip Curl Edition:
http://www.alliancewake.com/wake/exp...boats-new-21v/
Old    A.J. West (you_da_man)      Join Date: Sep 2009       10-15-2010, 2:30 PM Reply   
Also, the baby Moomba Outback V is very surf capable right out of the box and is very budget minded. Throw in some extra large sacs and it's even better. Not saying it can touch the "big boys" in the surf game but it's still in the game.
Old    Rob Foster (surfdoggy)      Join Date: Dec 2009       10-18-2010, 9:02 AM Reply   
Well said Wheelhouse. If you love wakesurfing, the best surf boat is whatever one you get to surf behind on whatever days you get to surf.

As for the Ragboy criticism, it seems harsh. Whatever you think of his Wake9 and Tige opinions/promotions, it seems to me that he has done a lot to promote wakesurfing as a sport. Don't know him at all, disagree with most of his opinions (I am a ballastaholic), but from what I can tell he has still done more to promote the sport than I have, and if I don't want to read his opinions, I skip over them. Wouldn't tell him to go home or stop posting - he may not be my favorite player, but it seems to me at least that he is on the team that is supporting and growing wakesurfing.
Old    mmcorrectax            10-18-2010, 12:41 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanleyWheelhouse View Post
In order to make an educated decision on buying a boat that will be utilized for surfing, one needs to understand just about any inboard boat that is 21 feet in length or longer will throw a surf able wake when you put enough weight in them and have the right board. For instance Danny Lemke's 2007 21 Foot Nautique threw a much better wave than the 240 Enzo at 2010 Worlds. Is it because the 21 foot Nautique is a better boat than a Centurion Enzo? No it does not. Danny's boat was properly weighted. The 240 Enzo at worlds was not.

Recently at Barrel Boss we rode behind a 230 Nautique. That boat did not throw near the wave Danny Lemke's 21 Nautique threw on the waters of Lake Minnetonka. Why you ask? Can the 210 Nautique throw a bigger wave than a 230. Yes. Especially when the 210 is properly weighted. The 230 at Barrel Boss was not properly weighted. The fellow RidaZ at Barrel Boss returned to the waters of Lake Minnetonka and convinced the local dealer the boat needed to be proven. The dealer agreed and apparently when weighted proplerly the 230 Nautique throws a really nice wave.

The other thing one must realize is this. Different Boats are like surfing different breaks. The Enzo makes a different shape wave than the Nautique, the Nautique makes a different shape wave than a Tige and the Tige makes a different shape wave than a Sanger and so on and on and on. Therefore to say one boat or another makes the best surf wake is really a matter of opinion on what you like out of a wave. JamesZ rides a Centurion. Recently he did a photo shoot jam money get down session behind a 247. He said he had to adjust to the wave because it was different. He rode the wave for a few days and killed it. After all we are talking about JamesZ. When he returned to his home break behind his Centurion it took him a bit to get used to the wave. Why? You see different hulls throw different breaks. And different breaks take a minute to adjust to. Aint it cool! We get to surf different breaks.

Regardless of what surf boat you pick, make sure your ballast system is automated and you order custom sacs that completely fill your available compartment space both left and right of the engine and under the seats in front of those areas. This means you do not have to throw 3 tsunami pumps over the side of your boat and fill six different sacs. You flip the switches and pimp fo tha ..................

There are two schools of thought on wakesurf waves and boats.

1) The best wave you can get putting in the least amount of weight.

2) The best wave you can get regardless of the amount of weight.


First, Category 1. There is no doubt the Enzo 230 or 240 win in this category. The hulls on these boats have a V-Shape. The V-Shape allows the hull to produce a very nice wave with less weight. The design works exactly as it should. Mark Sher's 240 Enzo throws a very nice wave. Leah, Mark and I went out for two days straight on his boat and had a blast. I really liked the wave especially for having three people on the boat and no Sacs on the seats. It was very long and very powerful and an absolute great time. Knowing our crew however, we would still throw a 750 on the seat because we like to get down like that.

Second,Category 2. Other boats can produce an Enzo sized wave but most require more weight than the Enzo. A lot of these boats are built as crossover boats. Meaning, they are both good for Wake Boarding, Slalom, and Yes Tubing, and Surfing. This is not to say the Enzo is not good for Wake Boarding, Slalom, and Yes Tubing. Therefore a lot of the hulls get more flat towards the back of the boat. This design requires more weight to be put in the boat to get a surfable wave. In some cases this hull design will require you to put so much weight in your boat you may have to have visible sacs on the floor and seats. There are boats however that will produce a wave with no visible sacs that will rival the biggest of surf waves. This has to do with taking the time to design custom sacs for your boat that COMPLETELY fill the compartment areas and under seat areas in your boat. Custom Sac Design has been done with great care for the Enzo by people who know what they are doing. But not a lot of other boats. Please understand we have custom sacs in our boat the wave with just those sacs and the factory ballast and wedge the wave is really nice. Knowing our crew however, you may still find a 750 on the seat because we like to get down like that.

Is category one better than two? It really should not matter. Why should it matter on how much weight you are putting in your boat? Regardless of which boat you buy. if you can fill the compartments in your boat with custom sacs that completely fill the available area at the flip of a button and if that weight happens to be 3000 pounds instead of 1500 pounds, is one boat better than the other? This is up to you. After all you are buying the boat.

The guys at Inland Run 2500 Lbs in their Enzos with no exposed sacs. We run 3500 pounds in our 247 with no exposed sacs. The Inland Enzos turn about 3200 RPM's and we turn about 3400 RPM's. Is one boat better than the other becase it carrys less weight and runs at less RPM while hauling the mail? That is up to you? After all you are buying the boat.

I have often thought of buying an Enzo and keeping my 247. That way I would have the best of both worlds. The waves are just that much fun.

Finally the best surf boat is the one that fits in your budget. One with an automated ballast system. One that makes you smile every time you see her. The one that your entire family can get into for the day and not feel crowded. The one that fits in your slip, garage, or boat storage. The one your vehicle can handle towing. The one that does not drink so much gas it drains your wallet. The one that actually works when you take it out. We can go on.....

I will repost since I made the mistake of posting on your other thread. These are some of the photos from that day on Lake Minnetonka with Danny, Brandon, Eric and Alex behind the 230 Super Air Nautique...
Attached Images
      
Old    WakeDoc (riverrunner)      Join Date: Aug 2006       10-18-2010, 1:45 PM Reply   
How much ballast is that?
Old    jkw (lakesurfer)      Join Date: Jul 2009       10-18-2010, 1:54 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by riverrunner View Post
How much ballast is that?
^X2

Also, what is the exact set up and do you have any video?
Old    mmcorrectax            10-18-2010, 2:18 PM Reply   
We have a video currently being edited from 2 different sessions, with these pictures being from the second( a little more ballast ). I am going to give ruff estimates here, cause we are currently playing with different setups:

Factory Port and Belly Full
300 LBs on portside of bow to lengthen wave (230 hull likes even weight for boarding and surfing)
600 on floor in front of aft bench seat
750 in port locker
750 on port bench seat
400 on port bench seat
750 on rear bench seat

10.6-11 MPH, Danny went a bit faster at 11.3 to end the day.

I think that was it... Goofy wave is just as nice and big, a bit steeper.
Old    Drew Richardson (surffresh)      Join Date: Jun 2010       10-18-2010, 4:54 PM Reply   
3,550 lbs to get a great wave, how much is the boat rated for ? Man, oh man, the law guy right here in the birth cannal home of Nautique ( Orlando ) would throw away the key if he saw a quarter of that on seats! I am guessing that there was more than just the driver in the boat also? He tried to put the smack down on us with 400 on a bench. LOL ! He had no idea that the boat had lockers and a factory ballast system. The listing of your boat is unsafe, he said.
Old    Drew Richardson (surffresh)      Join Date: Jun 2010       10-18-2010, 5:03 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by riverrunner View Post
How about you keep the wake9 polar bear event thread where it belongs on wake9, I for one do not need to see multiple links to it on every thread on the wakesurf forum here on WAKE WORLD. I like others are tired of reading your constant tige/wake9 advertising, take it somewhere else.
Thanks guys, they just had a 4 boat, 40 demo board event, and there aint a word of it here, some reviews would have been nice, even if they were Tige slanted, thanks again for bullying any press off of YOUR forum, back in the dark we go........
Old    WakeDoc (riverrunner)      Join Date: Aug 2006       10-19-2010, 7:23 AM Reply   
Last time I checked Drew this was a sub-forum for WakeSurfing on Wake World not the wake9 sub-forum on Wake World.but, it sure does seem like it lately.

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