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Old    Bryan Locke (gwnkids)      Join Date: Nov 2003       10-04-2010, 1:51 PM Reply   
The race is on for a clean marine diesel. I am a diesel fan and last month while at PPE in So Cal I had a chance to see a 24' eliminator converted to a Duramax engine with a 6 speed ally trans. Now this looked nice. Since it was an I/O they had to move the engine toward the bow 12" to accommodate the 6 speed trans that connected to the outdrive. Sorry no camera. I could just see this bad boy in a V-Drive. Here is the link to the Banks engine with 550 HP.
http://www.bankspower.com/fridaynigh...n-the-Dyno-Cel
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-04-2010, 2:05 PM Reply   
wait so you think 2 companies that build performance parts are gonna design and market and entire engine?
Im pretty sure cummins already makes a marine diesel...the gassers in our boats now are just automotive engines anyways, so why not drop a 2011 cummin/powerstroke/dmax crate engine into a boat....tack on DPF, CAT, and muffler and you have a hippy satisfying "clean" diesel engine making less power than it should.

Why did it have a 6speed tranny?? i didnt think they needed trannys in boats?
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       10-04-2010, 2:23 PM Reply   
All this diesel talk seems so strange to me. Why does it seem so foreign to the wakeboard world. Most larger boats have diesels. My father's boat has a tidy little Yanmar 315 Turbo diesel, definitely no larger than the ZR 409 in my Tomcat. It gets his full keeled 28' (11,000 lb) boat on plane in a jiffy. However, I have no desire whatsoever to have in in my wakeboard boat. This is a modern diesel and yes it is very loud, not too loud for a cruising vessel, but way to loud for a cruise on the lake in a 22' ski boat. And yes, the exhaust would be a major problem, not only for the people in the boat, but on a calm day there would be a green haze everywhere. Ever been offshore fishing when there are 10-20 charter boats leaving an inlet? Thats what I am talking about.
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Old    Mikeski (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       10-05-2010, 6:19 PM Reply   
I'm always baffled by people with thinking that diesels in boats would be better than a gasser. Just look at some torque curves. A gas engine just makes so much more sense when you understand how it is loaded. Notice they had to put a transmission behind the eliminator! I agree that our boats are underpowered but diesel is not the answer. A well built 400+ cubic inch small block with 500hp and a big flat torque curve from 1500-5000 is what we need, and that's going to be a gas motor, not a diesel. I had Larry Marine Engines spec out a Dart 409 block small block Chevy. Unfortunately while I was almost ready to shell out the $7,500 bucks for the new power I realized that I was signing up to be part of a science project with zero time to dedicate to it. Search "hotrod 450ci small-block" if you want to see the basis for what we really need. You are not going to get 500+ft-lbs of torque from 2000-5000rpm out of a diesel.
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-05-2010, 7:02 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeski View Post
I'm always baffled by people with thinking that diesels in boats would be better than a gasser. Just look at some torque curves. A gas engine just makes so much more sense when you understand how it is loaded. Notice they had to put a transmission behind the eliminator! I agree that our boats are underpowered but diesel is not the answer. A well built 400+ cubic inch small block with 500hp and a big flat torque curve from 1500-5000 is what we need, and that's going to be a gas motor, not a diesel. I had Larry Marine Engines spec out a Dart 409 block small block Chevy. Unfortunately while I was almost ready to shell out the $7,500 bucks for the new power I realized that I was signing up to be part of a science project with zero time to dedicate to it. Search "hotrod 450ci small-block" if you want to see the basis for what we really need. You are not going to get 500+ft-lbs of torque from 2000-5000rpm out of a diesel.
really? You understand that diesels make more torque right....and 2000 rpm will be at the top of the curve for most diesels. my powerstroke redlines at 3200 rpm. the V8's will be similar. the cummins will be a bit higher.

all clean diesels....easily in the 500ft-lb range...
http://www.turbodieselregister.com/f...ue-curves.html
Old    hyperlite (tims72)      Join Date: Apr 2008       10-05-2010, 10:21 PM Reply   
i would love to see a diesel in our boats or atleast a option like in trucks. they are alot more effecient with just as much h.p. and alot more torque. the new duramax offers 765 torque and 397 h.p. gas engines are at 322 h.p and 380 torque. diesel number are alot better. the only thing i agree about the gas advantage is the smell. it doesnt bother me but i know it would a lot of people. i know that fuel mileage/ hr would be alot better and everyone would enjoy that benefit
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-05-2010, 10:57 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by tims72 View Post
i would love to see a diesel in our boats or atleast a option like in trucks. they are alot more effecient with just as much h.p. and alot more torque. the new duramax offers 765 torque and 397 h.p. gas engines are at 322 h.p and 380 torque. diesel number are alot better. the only thing i agree about the gas advantage is the smell. it doesnt bother me but i know it would a lot of people. i know that fuel mileage/ hr would be alot better and everyone would enjoy that benefit
yup, i think smell and noise have been the main deterrents... but have you heard the new diesels!? they are QUITE!!!! you can hardly tell its not a gasser even standing next to the thing! Im not sure about the smell of the new ones, but even on the 08+ superdutys with the 6.4L powerstroke, all you can hear in the cab is a little bit of turbo. the new powerstroke, cummins, dmax motors are insanely quite, pretty cool how far they are coming. Im glad ford stepped it up this year too, those new 6.7L motors are pretty trick!

id bet a fully loaded boat with a diesel could get similar fuel consumption to fairly unweighted boat, as long as the diesel doesnt have any crazy custom tunes or injectors

Last edited by ilikebeaverandboats; 10-05-2010 at 10:59 PM.
Old    Mikeski (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       10-05-2010, 11:59 PM Reply   
Joey,

Really... If you integrate the torque curve over the RPM from 500 to redline you will find much more usable power from a gasoline engine. Your powerstroke redlines at 3200RPM, consider most gassers spin happily to 5500, even with a giant prop a wakeboard boat powered with that motor would top out at about 20 MPH. Take a look at those torque curves shown on the link posted, the usable RPM range is 500-3000 for the diesel so you are getting about half of what you get out of a gasser. You guys really need to stop focusing on a single printed number and start looking at torque curves and consider the ramifications of a narrow power band. Sure this could be overcome with a multispeed transmission in a boat but I'll pass on that too.

by the way, I think you mean QUIET in all caps...

Last edited by mikeski; 10-06-2010 at 12:04 AM.
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-06-2010, 12:31 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeski View Post
Joey,

Really... If you integrate the torque curve over the RPM from 500 to redline you will find much more usable power from a gasoline engine. Your powerstroke redlines at 3200RPM, consider most gassers spin happily to 5500, even with a giant prop a wakeboard boat powered with that motor would top out at about 20 MPH. Take a look at those torque curves shown on the link posted, the usable RPM range is 500-3000 for the diesel so you are getting about half of what you get out of a gasser. You guys really need to stop focusing on a single printed number and start looking at torque curves and consider the ramifications of a narrow power band. Sure this could be overcome with a multispeed transmission in a boat but I'll pass on that too.

by the way, I think you mean QUIET in all caps...
obviously i meant quite...you are a super sleuth... just because I was typing fast and didn't take the time to read over my post for spelling errors, does not mean i am a jackass. now ill take my poke at you....do you even know what the word integrate means? what would integrating the torque curve over the RPM curve give you? You cant integrate a curve over another curve...

I see your point here, but i disagree.

so you understand how rpm is related to the length of the powerstroke correct? So shorten it, widen the bore, higher rpm with minimized loss of torque. The cummins redline at much higher rpms. the VW diesels that are in the jetta, those redline higher. problem solved. you can have a diesel engine with the exact same dimensions as a gasser and make higher numbers, especially if you throw a turbo on it...then the efficiency goes through the roof.

There was a diesel a few years back available in some of the MC boats, it was basically the diesel that was in the jetta, which was still more efficient than a gasser.

how bout this, screw it, lets just throw quasiturbine engines in all our boats and everyone can be happy we can just burn whatever we have laying around, diesel, alcohol, methane.....
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-06-2010, 12:40 AM Reply   
forgive me for getting a little heated mike, i am all for civilized debate/discussion. shouldnt have let it get to me! i promise i will be nice
Old    882001 (882001)      Join Date: Nov 2003       10-06-2010, 6:47 AM Reply   
joey,so with your thinking my psd or any other dieselwill only go 50 mph? and a diesel boat will have no power and only go 20? haha classic
Old    Jason Barber (A7X_LSV_23)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-06-2010, 8:06 AM Reply   
Kinda interesting topic. But while Joey is making the deal about the RPM's, it's pretty obsolete. If you take any motor... whatever it is. And say it's 1:1.... Meaning that output shaft is spinning the same speed as the motor and there's absolutely no gearing involved what so ever. For sure, a gas 450ci would smoke any diesel engine because the prop would be spinning at 5500 rpm rather then 3000rpm... Well luckily today and technology, we have GEARING! And it's SIMPLE! Break it down really as simple as I can without getting into numbers... any motor, do a 1:4, meaning the shaft on the prop is gonna spin 4 times to every 1 revolution of the motor. Your now at 22000 rpm with a gasser, or 12000 rpm with a diesel. By doing this, you've also just amped the load on the motor by however much. Which one do you think is gonna have enough torque to spin that prop out of the whole. And if your doing 50mph@5500rpm... either motor would need to spin that high. Soo..... If you broke it down. Gas motor @ 1:1... Diesel motor 1:2 pretty much = the same speed... Only you've got double the torque, more GPH, overall a way more efficient motor that will last 5X longer.
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       10-06-2010, 8:44 AM Reply   
Better call Hatteras Yachts and let them know they need to stop using diesels.

This 60' 74,500 lb boat runs 40 MPH with twin 1400 hp CAT's. That is the equivallent of a 140 hp diesel in a 3725 lb wakeboat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bwbFcjljRs
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       10-06-2010, 8:51 AM Reply   
Here is my Father in Law running his 44' Deadrise at 30 kts with a single 3208T Cat (239 HP). Who knows how much the boat weighs, maybe 13,000 lbs?
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Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-06-2010, 1:03 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by 882001 View Post
joey,so with your thinking my psd or any other dieselwill only go 50 mph? and a diesel boat will have no power and only go 20? haha classic
Woah hold on there...mike is the one arguing that... I agree with you, and if you read the above posts correctly you would see that. I have an 02 powerstoke with the 7.3l...I know that your psd will go over 50mph...I have one!
You read the posts wrong my friend.
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-06-2010, 1:06 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by A7X_LSV_23 View Post
Kinda interesting topic. But while Joey is making the deal about the RPM's, it's pretty obsolete. If you take any motor... whatever it is. And say it's 1:1.... Meaning that output shaft is spinning the same speed as the motor and there's absolutely no gearing involved what so ever. For sure, a gas 450ci would smoke any diesel engine because the prop would be spinning at 5500 rpm rather then 3000rpm... Well luckily today and technology, we have GEARING! And it's SIMPLE! Break it down really as simple as I can without getting into numbers... any motor, do a 1:4, meaning the shaft on the prop is gonna spin 4 times to every 1 revolution of the motor. Your now at 22000 rpm with a gasser, or 12000 rpm with a diesel. By doing this, you've also just amped the load on the motor by however much. Which one do you think is gonna have enough torque to spin that prop out of the whole. And if your doing 50mph@5500rpm... either motor would need to spin that high. Soo..... If you broke it down. Gas motor @ 1:1... Diesel motor 1:2 pretty much = the same speed... Only you've got double the torque, more GPH, overall a way more efficient motor that will last 5X longer.
Agreed, I'll go back and read my posts, but I'm agreeing with you on this, mike was arguing that the rpms would limit the performance, not me. I was simply responding to his rpm vs. Tourqe comment he made. Most boats have the 1:1.5 gearing, and with a diesel it could be amped up and the motor would perform great.
Old    Jason Barber (A7X_LSV_23)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-06-2010, 3:41 PM Reply   
This is something that I really think would revolutionize the boating world as far as performance.

http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?br...ocation_id=542

Simple design used in snowmobiles and ATV'S. It really gets the best of both worlds... Hard part, building one strong enough to support the HP and torque we all want. But would you really need all that much torque to get out of the hole or up top to get it moving if the trans is doing all the work? Just a thought.
Old    Dennis (islander033)      Join Date: May 2008       10-06-2010, 3:53 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikebeaverandboats View Post
.... Most boats have the 1:1.5 gearing....
Check your V-drive....I think it is the other way around (1.5:1). That is why it is called reduction.
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-06-2010, 4:20 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by islander033 View Post
Check your V-drive....I think it is the other way around (1.5:1). That is why it is called reduction.
Thats ticky tack, in which frame of refrence? No where did any one specify which end of that ratio was prop and which was motor, but you guys all know what i was referring to based on what we were talking about. come on now man.


Quote:
Originally Posted by A7X_LSV_23 View Post
This is something that I really think would revolutionize the boating world as far as performance.

http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?br...ocation_id=542

Simple design used in snowmobiles and ATV'S. It really gets the best of both worlds... Hard part, building one strong enough to support the HP and torque we all want. But would you really need all that much torque to get out of the hole or up top to get it moving if the trans is doing all the work? Just a thought.
way cool stuff, they are using that same setup on bikes now, like mountain bikes.
Old    Dennis (islander033)      Join Date: May 2008       10-06-2010, 4:29 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikebeaverandboats View Post
Thats ticky tack, in which frame of refrence? No where did any one specify which end of that ratio was prop and which was motor, but you guys all know what i was referring to based on what we were talking about. come on now man.
....
I actually didn't know what you ment, but it is good that you knew what you ment.

It is common for this: (Input:Output) when talking gear ratios, that way most people know what you are intending.....not trying to be "ticky tack"....just saying.

Last edited by islander033; 10-06-2010 at 4:30 PM. Reason: me spell good...lol.
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-06-2010, 5:05 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by islander033 View Post
I actually didn't know what you ment, but it is good that you knew what you ment.

It is common for this: (Input:Output) when talking gear ratios, that way most people know what you are intending.....not trying to be "ticky tack"....just saying.
you did know what i meant... you corrected me....
Old    Dennis (islander033)      Join Date: May 2008       10-06-2010, 6:02 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikebeaverandboats View Post
you did know what i meant... you corrected me....
Good enough.

Hijack over...carry on.
Old    882001 (882001)      Join Date: Nov 2003       10-06-2010, 6:23 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikebeaverandboats View Post
Woah hold on there...mike is the one arguing that... I agree with you, and if you read the above posts correctly you would see that. I have an 02 powerstoke with the 7.3l...I know that your psd will go over 50mph...I have one!
You read the posts wrong my friend.
sorry i looked 2 posts up and didnt see you posted two in a row.
saying a gasser is more powerful than a diesel is he dumbest thing i have ever heard. and could only come from someone that has never driven a diesel.
Old    Tdc_worm C (tdc_worm)      Join Date: Sep 2002       10-06-2010, 9:09 PM Reply   
it makes sense, but i can think of several reasons why it is infeasible:

1. several lakes do not have readily available diesel pumps available at marinas
2. this would immediately axe a portion of the demand
3. development of the package would carry a premium
4. out of the remaining boaters, many would not demand the $6k plus (being very conservative) upcharge on boats that are already hitting MSRPs approaching $100k.

if you take a look it from the economics of the consumer, it is hard to justify:

assume that the upcharge is similar to that of the 8.1L (i am assuming that to be $10k?)

off the lake, gas is $2.69 in Austin while diesel is 2.89. Assume the diesel is 25% more efficient and gets 7.5 gph while the gas engine does 10 gph.

if those numbers are anywhere near accurate, it would take the user 1146 hours to recoup savings in fuel expenses to justify the $10k premium on the engine upgrade.

****my numbers are all arbitrary, but you get my point****
Old    Jason Barber (A7X_LSV_23)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-07-2010, 8:06 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdc_worm View Post
it makes sense, but i can think of several reasons why it is infeasible:

1. several lakes do not have readily available diesel pumps available at marinas
2. this would immediately axe a portion of the demand
3. development of the package would carry a premium
4. out of the remaining boaters, many would not demand the $6k plus (being very conservative) upcharge on boats that are already hitting MSRPs approaching $100k.

if you take a look it from the economics of the consumer, it is hard to justify:

assume that the upcharge is similar to that of the 8.1L (i am assuming that to be $10k?)

off the lake, gas is $2.69 in Austin while diesel is 2.89. Assume the diesel is 25% more efficient and gets 7.5 gph while the gas engine does 10 gph.

if those numbers are anywhere near accurate, it would take the user 1146 hours to recoup savings in fuel expenses to justify the $10k premium on the engine upgrade.

****my numbers are all arbitrary, but you get my point****
1. I know here in Utah, we don't fill up at marina's anyways and most the marinas don't have any fuel pumps here. So that wouldn't be a big deal. Even if it did, I can't see it being to spendy to install a diesel pump anywhere.

2. The demand is there. You obviously hear about people all day long saying they need a bigger prop. Or need a bigger motor. Or they need something that gets better gas! There's always a demand to improve on what's currently out there. If there wasn't we'd all still be in the stone age.

3. People are already paying the $6k for the upgraded 8.1L motor... Why would they not pay $6k for a diesel upgrade? Sure some people can't afford it but many many many others can. I'm not one of them

4. Now of course we all know as well that boats are starting to get WAY over priced. Which is why different manufactures are starting to make a budget boat so to say. Malibu = AXIS as an example. There starting to cover the market with a wide variety of boats in different price ranges to fit everyones needs.


Lastly... I think you got your numbers flip flopped... My Duramax gets A LOT better (at least double) of what my old 6.0L and I know it gets better then the 8.1L so... Saw someone say they're getting around 4.7gph in a 8.1L? So double that for the diesel. And then do the numbers... 640 hrs-ish? Which is besides the point. No one is going to look at those numbers buying a boat cause we already know, gotta pay to play so. If someone came to me and said this boat has double the power, and uses half the gas with a diesel as the 8.1L... Ummmm I think I'm gonna go with the 8.1L.... NOT!
Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       10-07-2010, 8:37 AM Reply   
It's funny how the US is so skewed towards gasoline engines and Europe "gets" Diesel (40% of their cars are diesel). Diesel has more energy content per gallon than gasoline. Once you step away from the recreational boat user, pretty much all of the boats are diesels. Anyone who still thinks that gas is the way to go, think about this: What do we use gas for besides cars/atv's/motorcycles? Not much! Everything else is all diesel, trains, semi trucks, snow plows, garbage trucks, yachts, cruise ships, some power plants, heating oil in the northeast, etc. Heck some of those things only use diesel to create electricity to power electric motors that actually do the work (trains, cruise ships)! It's only a matter of time before this country finally figures out that we have been tricked by oil companies into thinking that gasoline is the way to go.
Old    Mikeski (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       10-07-2010, 10:36 AM Reply   
Good discussion.

I have nothing against diesels but I just feel that the gas solution for our relatively small fiberglass boats is the better solution to get what we need when you consider power, cost, weight, size, operating temperature, convenience, availability, durability, longevity, controllability, etc. If we were running fleets of boats with high operating hours it could be different. Unfortunately the powerplant guys are not yet extracting as much power out of the current motors as I believe they could. Maybe MC's recent choice to add Ilmor into the mix could change this in the near future?

Integrate = area under a curve between a starting point and ending point. This metric is exactly what we need to look at when we compare powerplant options in our boats. We need to integrate the torque (or horsepower since they are proportional in this case) from idle to maximum sustainable RPM to determine how much power is available to be delivered to the load. Unfortunately the powerplant guys won't even give us this information which I find very annoying because the single HP and Tq number comparisons can be deceptive.

Good points about the gear reduction that I had glossed over in my earlier assertion. A diesel spinning a 1:1 output shaft could provide close to the range of output we see from the gasser spinning a 1.5:1 shaft. However this also minimizes the torque gains so it could just be a different path to the same end result. By the way, I find it a little deceptive how at least one of the powerplant guys publishes torque figures from behind the gear reduction transmission.

Comparing operating parameters of a rolling truck with a lower constant friction load to that of a plowing boat with a much higher constant friction load is not that valuable in my opinion. That said, a generator or compressor may be a better load for a comparison purposes and there are plenty of diesel engines spinning those loads.
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       10-07-2010, 10:40 AM Reply   
If you are going to start with the gear ratio discussion, you have to remember that you are turning a prop, not a tire. Props are infinitely configurable with pitch, diameter, and cup. The deadrise in my photo above has a 1:1 ratio and is turning a 24x22 "wheel"
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-07-2010, 11:30 AM Reply   
First wakeworld discussion in a long time that hasnt gone to the dogs, i like it

Timmy has a point, europe has everything diesel, its more efficient and is more widely accepted there. Who knows why more isnt diesel over here, but someday itll have to be.

Diesels are just a bit more expensive than a gasser, and the beauty of it is, its not like you are required to get the diesel if its offered as an option. everyone is still allowed to have their own preference.

Alans point about the infinitely configureable prop is right too. if diesel engines are introduced they will most likely need a different trans setup than what are offered on the gassers, and will most likely need different prop options, but if the market is there (which obviously is) the companies will make whats needed available.

I know that its not a perfect comparison but i really feel like its much more similar than everyone thinks it is, put a diesel and gasser next to each other with a 10K load and send them up a hill, the diesel will out perform the gasser. Now this gets fuzzy on how you can put "equal" motors in each vehicle so that the trial is actually fair. But lets just assume it was 2 stock motors offered by Ford/dodge/chevy in similar trucks. You can mod the gasser and it might win, but you can also mod the diesel and it will kick the modded gassers ass. So now look at a diesel vs a gasser in a boat, you may say the analogy doesnt work because one is spinning tires and one is spinning a propeller. Well look at it this way, a motor isnt always locked to the tranny if its manual thats obvious but if its an automatic it will have a torque converter which is not always locked. I see this as being similar to a prop spinning in the water. You floor a boat, the proper doesnt "hook up" completely right away, much like a car when you floor it, either you let the clutch out while the motor is spinning, or the torque converter slowly locks in the power.
I hope that makes sense, if not I can try and find some info on line thatll show/explain it better.
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       10-07-2010, 11:36 AM Reply   
Mike, I rarely disagree with you, but on this one you're just wrong. There is a reason that sportfishers all run diesels (heck most long range, off shore or cruising yachts run diesels).

Diesel is the better alternative for so many reasons. The downsides have been listed, but IMO, the only real downside is the price. The new 6 cyl VW/Audi motor is rediculously quiet and doesn't smell at all. The thing is... They don't make the type of torque/power we really want as a wakeboarder. They would compare more directly with a MCX motor. Yes, far more efficient, but not the stump puller that the boat-slammers want.

I want my PSD in a boat. Give me 600+ lb/ft of torque and 300+ hp. There would be nothing that could stop it with the right prop. I'll live with the noise and smoke on acceleration. It'd be like a right of passage. Ha, ha, ha.
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       10-07-2010, 11:44 AM Reply   
Well, when you get into larger inboard boats that still have single engines you see the differences. The diesels usually cost a little more, have better range(fuel economy), but a little lower top end. Also, the general rule of thumb for longevity is that gassers require a rebuild every 1500 and diesels need a rebuild at 5000 hrs.

Check this little article out. http://www.coastalmarineengine.com/v...vs-diesel.html

My point is that a lot of this discussion is useless, it already exists. The technology is there and has been for about 30-40 years. Call up Acme propellers or Michigan Wheel and talk to them about diesels, they know them very well, because that is the majority of their market.
Old    Jason Barber (A7X_LSV_23)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-07-2010, 12:07 PM Reply   
I'm telling ya, the BEST thing they (manufacturers) could do to run a diesel motor, is design a trans based off the ones they use in snowmobiles and ATV's. No Torque converter. no flywheel (weight reduction woot), and you can get rid of the 1.5:1 or 1:1 ratio **** cause it'll variable based off speed/load. BTW, I think one Turbo Diesel motor would weigh less then the X-80 dont ya think
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       10-07-2010, 12:18 PM Reply   
Jason, I respect your concept. However, think about how a prop works. It already is a CVT( Continuously Variable Transmission) in itself.
Old    Jason Barber (A7X_LSV_23)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-07-2010, 1:05 PM Reply   
I got what your saying, but I don't see how that's going to effect how the boat would take off or top speed.... Set up the gearing in the CVT at idle it'll be lets say 0.5:1... Just for the whole shot and we know diesels are laggy off the line right So it'll get the rpms up letting the motor build the power it needs and hold the rpms. Then on the other side the prop. It can either A - grab like a son of a b**** and rip out of the hole... If that does so. the CVT will start tightening up the gears spinning the prop even faster. All the meanwhile, the rpms and power, are staying the same. Or B it will Captivate itself, the CVT will stay at 0.5:1 till it does grab. But after it grabs is where the magic starts with the ratios... 2:1... 3:1.... You could get it geared so your doing 50mph at 1500rpm. It's honestly the best of both worlds.

Last edited by A7X_LSV_23; 10-07-2010 at 1:07 PM.
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-07-2010, 2:49 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by A7X_LSV_23 View Post
I got what your saying, but I don't see how that's going to effect how the boat would take off or top speed.... Set up the gearing in the CVT at idle it'll be lets say 0.5:1... Just for the whole shot and we know diesels are laggy off the line right So it'll get the rpms up letting the motor build the power it needs and hold the rpms. Then on the other side the prop. It can either A - grab like a son of a b**** and rip out of the hole... If that does so. the CVT will start tightening up the gears spinning the prop even faster. All the meanwhile, the rpms and power, are staying the same. Or B it will Captivate itself, the CVT will stay at 0.5:1 till it does grab. But after it grabs is where the magic starts with the ratios... 2:1... 3:1.... You could get it geared so your doing 50mph at 1500rpm. It's honestly the best of both worlds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alans View Post
Jason, I respect your concept. However, think about how a prop works. It already is a CVT( Continuously Variable Transmission) in itself.
I think you are both right to an extent, jason, its not a huge deal to have the CVT but it would definitely be beneficial. Would be really cool too, would compensate for the prop. I think the way the prop works and the way the CVT works would really compliment each other....it could work without it, but think about how great they would work together!

some of you guys are making a big deal about the top end, how fast do you guys drive you boats? I mean seriously, its a wake boat, if you wanna go fast buy something else. most wakeboarders ride around 23mph right? some guys ride a little faster, especially if your lyman but realistically you dont need much top end. any given day on the water, i dont need my boat to go over 25 mph. I would much rather have a boat the performs weighted better than it performs unweighted, and i feel like its the other way around. the focus needs to change from the boat being a good all around run-about to performing better at the main focus....which is wakeboarding and wakesurfing. A diesel in my boat would be awesome, its slammed with about 2500lbs of water plus people for surfing and i burn through gas getting that sucker moving, even with the correct prop.
Old    Jason Barber (A7X_LSV_23)      Join Date: Mar 2010       10-07-2010, 3:04 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikebeaverandboats View Post
I think you are both right to an extent, jason, its not a huge deal to have the CVT but it would definitely be beneficial. Would be really cool too, would compensate for the prop. I think the way the prop works and the way the CVT works would really compliment each other....it could work without it, but think about how great they would work together!

some of you guys are making a big deal about the top end, how fast do you guys drive you boats? I mean seriously, its a wake boat, if you wanna go fast buy something else. most wakeboarders ride around 23mph right? some guys ride a little faster, especially if your lyman but realistically you dont need much top end. any given day on the water, i dont need my boat to go over 25 mph. I would much rather have a boat the performs weighted better than it performs unweighted, and i feel like its the other way around. the focus needs to change from the boat being a good all around run-about to performing better at the main focus....which is wakeboarding and wakesurfing. A diesel in my boat would be awesome, its slammed with about 2500lbs of water plus people for surfing and i burn through gas getting that sucker moving, even with the correct prop.

Agreed with the speed thing. I don't usually go above 30mph BECAUSE, i don't like my RPM's getting that high putting wear and tear on the motor. If I could do 50mph at 2000rpm with a diesel. You bet your ass I'd be doing it! CVT would kick even more ass for exactly what you just said. What's the problem with burning so much gas while wakesurfing?? It's a lot more load on the motor and it's not in it's efficiency range... In comes the reason why a CVT would be IDEAL!!! Gear a CVT to hit 8-12mph at 1800-2000rpm in a diesel in it's efficiency range, as well as wakeboarding speed. the RPM of the motor will stay pretty close range. A differnce of 500rpm could be a difference of 30-40 mph. Ultimately... you would NEVER hit the rev limiter in the boat or hit really extreme limits (3000rpm). At some point though, the gearing would get so high that the boat will just stop accelerating having a max speed. Make sense?
Old    Tdc_worm C (tdc_worm)      Join Date: Sep 2002       10-07-2010, 3:18 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by A7X_LSV_23 View Post
1. I know here in Utah, we don't fill up at marina's anyways and most the marinas don't have any fuel pumps here. So that wouldn't be a big deal. Even if it did, I can't see it being to spendy to install a diesel pump anywhere.

2. The demand is there. You obviously hear about people all day long saying they need a bigger prop. Or need a bigger motor. Or they need something that gets better gas! There's always a demand to improve on what's currently out there. If there wasn't we'd all still be in the stone age.

3. People are already paying the $6k for the upgraded 8.1L motor... Why would they not pay $6k for a diesel upgrade? Sure some people can't afford it but many many many others can. I'm not one of them

4. Now of course we all know as well that boats are starting to get WAY over priced. Which is why different manufactures are starting to make a budget boat so to say. Malibu = AXIS as an example. There starting to cover the market with a wide variety of boats in different price ranges to fit everyones needs.


Lastly... I think you got your numbers flip flopped... My Duramax gets A LOT better (at least double) of what my old 6.0L and I know it gets better then the 8.1L so... Saw someone say they're getting around 4.7gph in a 8.1L? So double that for the diesel. And then do the numbers... 640 hrs-ish? Which is besides the point. No one is going to look at those numbers buying a boat cause we already know, gotta pay to play so. If someone came to me and said this boat has double the power, and uses half the gas with a diesel as the 8.1L... Ummmm I think I'm gonna go with the 8.1L.... NOT!
1. what percentage of the US or world boating market is Utah? Point is a sample size of 1 is worthless.

2. i do hear that on forums. we comprise maybe 25% of the tow boat buying public. the rest of the buyers a families pulling tubers. who are the wakeboat companies selling to? look at their brochures...they are clad with boats zipping along at full throttle or people hanging out making sammiches. furthermore, gearing is king. put the right prop on a boat and it will do what you want it to. i recommend the 5.7L 343 Excal engine in every Nautique over the 6.0L ZR6 409 hp engine. with the correct props, you cant tell a difference, other than your bank account is $6k lighter with the ZR6.

3. would be interesting to know how many 8.1Ls are running around in tow boats...maybe 1%. seems like demand is low.

4. we will see...they are quickly pricing themselves out of business.

just want to reiterate...i think they are a good idea...just not sure they are feasible from a cost standpoint....

Last edited by tdc_worm; 10-07-2010 at 3:22 PM.
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-07-2010, 3:52 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdc_worm View Post
1. what percentage of the US or world boating market is Utah? Point is a sample size of 1 is worthless.

2. i do hear that on forums. we comprise maybe 25% of the tow boat buying public. the rest of the buyers a families pulling tubers. who are the wakeboat companies selling to? look at their brochures...they are clad with boats zipping along at full throttle or people hanging out making sammiches. furthermore, gearing is king. put the right prop on a boat and it will do what you want it to. i recommend the 5.7L 343 Excal engine in every Nautique over the 6.0L ZR6 409 hp engine. with the correct props, you cant tell a difference, other than your bank account is $6k lighter with the ZR6.

3. would be interesting to know how many 8.1Ls are running around in tow boats...maybe 1%. seems like demand is low.

4. we will see...they are quickly pricing themselves out of business.

just want to reiterate...i think they are a good idea...just not sure they are feasible from a cost standpoint....
Good points, all I would like to see is a diesel as an option. much like the 8.1L is an option, every boat doesnt have to be diesel but I know the people who will be sacking the boat out will benefit from having it. and it will make us compression ignition addicts happy
I think it will eventaully become boats that can potentionally be hardcore wakeboarder/surfers dream given the correct options while still allowing a product that appeals to the weekend warriors. that would be a very versatile, and successful product. Im working on getting into the marine industry when I graduate, and i have some ideas I think would go over really well

Quote:
Originally Posted by A7X_LSV_23 View Post
Agreed with the speed thing. I don't usually go above 30mph BECAUSE, i don't like my RPM's getting that high putting wear and tear on the motor. If I could do 50mph at 2000rpm with a diesel. You bet your ass I'd be doing it! CVT would kick even more ass for exactly what you just said. What's the problem with burning so much gas while wakesurfing?? It's a lot more load on the motor and it's not in it's efficiency range... In comes the reason why a CVT would be IDEAL!!! Gear a CVT to hit 8-12mph at 1800-2000rpm in a diesel in it's efficiency range, as well as wakeboarding speed. the RPM of the motor will stay pretty close range. A differnce of 500rpm could be a difference of 30-40 mph. Ultimately... you would NEVER hit the rev limiter in the boat or hit really extreme limits (3000rpm). At some point though, the gearing would get so high that the boat will just stop accelerating having a max speed. Make sense?
I gotcha. I just dont need to go that fast. Im very rarely just driving around the lake. Most of the time Im just driving im dumping ballast on the way in, or filling ballast on the way out...all other times i am surfing.
Doesnt VW or Audi use a CVT, or similar, transmission in some of there new cars? I remember seeing a commercial for Lexus (i think) a while back where they were advertising that you couldnt feel the car shifting, commercial had a girl putting on make up in the passenger seat, do you guys remember? maybe that was CVT too.

I would really like to get an old Tige and make a project out of installing a cummins.
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       10-07-2010, 6:49 PM Reply   
What are you guys talking about when you keep saying cummins? They don't make recreational marine diesels, only commercial. The < 1000 bhp players are;

http://marine.cat.com/propulsion

http://www.yanmarmarine.com/index.cf...rboat-engines/

http://www.perkins.com/products/

http://www.volvopenta.com/VOLVOPENTA...l_inboard.aspx

http://www.man-engines.com/en/Schiff...ffsmotoren.jsp
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-07-2010, 7:13 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by alans View Post
What are you guys talking about when you keep saying cummins? They don't make recreational marine diesels, only commercial. The < 1000 bhp players are;

http://marine.cat.com/propulsion

http://www.yanmarmarine.com/index.cf...rboat-engines/

http://www.perkins.com/products/

http://www.volvopenta.com/VOLVOPENTA...l_inboard.aspx

http://www.man-engines.com/en/Schiff...ffsmotoren.jsp
Yea cummins does
http://www.cmdmarine.com/engines/rec/index.html

but since most of the motors in todays boats are just marine adapted automotive engines (basically all you need is a marine intake and the exhaust, and cooling, if there is more that must be adapted let me know, im pretty sure thats it though) there is no reason you cant put one from an old Ram 2500 or 3500 in a boat. And cummins are just pretty cool motors in general, common rail in line 6 and are fairly small compared to say, the 7.3L powerstroke witch is a monster V8. i think it would be cool to have one. Doubt a boat company like tige or MC could get the OK from cummins to do it, but it would be just like the guys who put the Cadillac or Corvette motors in their wake boats.
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       10-07-2010, 8:30 PM Reply   
I stand corrected. I did not realize that Mercruiser was using Cummins motors. Don't see many in the sportfishing or down east style cruisers arena.

BTW, that Yanmar 315 in my picture above is an inline 6 from Toyota. How'd you like to have that in your Landcruiser or 4 Runner..... They do overseas!
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       10-08-2010, 12:04 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by alans View Post
I stand corrected. I did not realize that Mercruiser was using Cummins motors. Don't see many in the sportfishing or down east style cruisers arena.

BTW, that Yanmar 315 in my picture above is an inline 6 from Toyota. How'd you like to have that in your Landcruiser or 4 Runner..... They do overseas!
I new they did it, forgot they were teamed with mercruiser!

is it toyota made? or is it made by hino, I had heard the diesel that might go into the tundra is like an 8.#L inline 6 that would be made by hino.
You have no idea how bad I want one, been talking about it for a long time wishing that they would bring that over the pond! Used to have a 95 land crusher, and now we have an 01 in the family, wish that baby was diesel! an old FJ with a diesel would be cool too, EVERYTHING with diesel would be cool! see where my heads at!? im a compression ignition addict

kinda unrelated, but 2 summers ago a local company here in phoenix did a crazy build on an IH scout II and put a cummins in it, lift, nice body and paint, and the thing is killer! Ill see if i can dig up some pictures. I seriously want to put a diesel into everything I own, its like a bug you catch, once you own one you realize how awesome they really are. My list of projects I plan on doing down the road pretty much all include a diesel engine, typically a cummins, and heavily tuned
Old    882001 (882001)      Join Date: Nov 2003       10-08-2010, 5:52 AM Reply   
black soot on the back of the boat and the smell of exhaust in the open layout of a skiboat would be the biggest downfall, the extra weight of the motor would be sweet, the noise would need more insulation in the motorcover but wouldnt bother me anyway, you could rack up way way more hours before needing a rebuild. and would save a ton of fuel. last time off shore we took a big diesel sport fish and the station wagon effect made a few peeps ill,
that scout would be cool with a cummins in it
Old    Brit Rider (brit_rider)      Join Date: May 2004       10-08-2010, 5:54 AM Reply   
Sode note, VW and Cummins Mercruiser recently joined forces for marine diesel engines.

http://www.4wheelsnews.com/volkswage...c-partnership/

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