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Old    Greg Walker (greg_walker)      Join Date: Mar 2009       09-15-2010, 5:43 PM Reply   
Hi guys,

Im looking to add more ballast to my boat and Im brainstorming the smartest way to go about it. I have an MC 08 X1, which has two hard tanks built in into the back.. I would like to add another two bags around 300-400 pounds. Ive been looking at the V-Drive Fly High Pro X sacs (400 lbs a piece)

Im looking for some input to incorporate these new bags with the existing system. This is the best design I can think of so far but let me know if you see any potential problems.

Its basically hooking the two tanks (old hard tank and new bag) up in parallel. See the attached flow diagram should make it a bit clearer

Then I would fill them individually, isolate one tank by closing either valve 1 and 3 or 2 and 4, wait until it overflows, then switch the position of all valves and fill the other one. I donít see how this would add any extra stain on the pump which is my biggest concern. I want to try to not have to add another pump to save money but donít want to burn out the existing pump.
From what I can find about these bags, theres a fill hole and vent on the top and a drain on the bottom, if any could confirm the layout of the holes on the bag that would be very useful so I can figure out how to attach them exactly. Are you able to buy the various connectors at home depot or someplace like that? Ill also need 8 shut off valves and about 10 feet of hose and some c clamps.

Ill attach the other design I had which was setting them up in series but I think it would add an extra strain on the pump since it would then have to pump and hold the weight of two tanks. Plus there would be complications with emptying the sac which is why there's those extra valves. Overall it seemed much more complicated then the other design, the only benefit is you wouldnt have to change over all the valves during filling, only between emptying and filling.

Let me know what you guys think, and insight would be very useful

Also has anyone used wakecord.com to buy these bags, I couldnt find any local or used bags (Im in Canada not as much stuff up here). The ones I was looking at are 200 bucks a piece so 800lbs in total, seemed fair to me.
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Old    Jeff DeVeer (Jeff)      Join Date: May 2010       09-15-2010, 5:59 PM Reply   
I think most just put the bags in series with the hard tank overflow. I don't think it would add any more strain on the pump than filling the bag up separately. Pushing the water higher will be an increased load on the pump but I think it would be the same whether you're overflowing the hard tank or pumping through a separate piece of tubing to the same bag. Maybe the engineers on this board could give better insight here.
Old    Greg Walker (greg_walker)      Join Date: Mar 2009       09-15-2010, 7:14 PM Reply   
Ya well any water that is above the pump will add weight, so pretty much this entire bag wlll be above the pump since its mounted on the floor so I think it would add a strain. What Im not sure about is if the pumps can handle it, I dont really have any experience with this kind of pump. If other people have done it I suppose they are able to handle it.

And ya filling the bags in series wouldnt be an issue, its more the emptying. I am worried about air by passing the water in the sac and therefore not draining it. I am also worried that if the sac completely emptied, the bag could close up in the middle sealing it. This would create suction and seal the bag more tightly not allowing any air through to vent the hard tank. Hope you get that its kinda hard to describe.

I am in engineering and I simulated it in Automation Studio, so I know it will work in theory just not sure how it will work in reality lol
Old    Jeff DeVeer (Jeff)      Join Date: May 2010       09-16-2010, 7:53 AM Reply   
No doubt it will increase the load on the pump to have a higher bag but whether or not that load would be different if you were pushing the water through a separate hose vs. overflowing the hard tank is my question. Does it take more energy to push water up through a 3' tall hard tank or a 3' high piece of hose? Or does it require the same amount of energy? The amount of water to be moved and the height are the same in either case. Water pressure is the same at a given depth regardless of the volume of water present, right? So a 1 in x 3 ft column of water would exert the same amount of back pressure as a 20 in x 50 in x 3 ft high cube of water.

Does your factory ballast system have impeller pumps? Aren't ballast puppies rated for pushing water up to 10' vertically or something like that? I may have made that up but I know people say you have to be careful to not allow impeller pumps to burst sacs. If they're really capable of generatiing enough pressure to burst a sac I'd think they could handle overfilling a hard tank into a sac.


Using your above design I'd think you could eliminate some of the valves and replace others with check valves. This would reduce the amount of valve turning that you have to do. Using your "Filling hard tank" diagram as a reference it seems like you could replace 4 with a check valve (Only allow outward flow) and maybe even eliminate valve 3 (Assuming you'd never fill the sac and want to leave the hard tank empty). You could replace 1&2 with a 3 way valve (1 Inlet, 2 selectable outlets). With that setup you'd only have to turn 2 valves instead of 8. When running I'd think you'd need to select the hard tank with your 3 way valves because the sacs might want to drain back through your pumps due to the height.
Old    Greg Walker (greg_walker)      Join Date: Mar 2009       09-16-2010, 10:42 AM Reply   
Ya the pumps are an impeller design, made from Jabsco. I did some more research into them and their pretty tough pumps like you said so Im sure they will be able to withstand any extra strain if any.

And ya at first I didnt want to use check valves as they add pressure to the system, however now that thats not an issue I will use them, plus I looked at pricing and there cheaper then another valve. And ya Ill eliminate valve 3 its redundant, the only reason I could see needing it when I switch to fill the sac the water pours into the sac from the hard tank, but I dont think it will cause the line shouldnt be primed. And ya a 3 way valve would work instead of two valves, however pricing it out the two valves are still cheaper then a 3 way so I might keep those and then I can shut off both tanks from the pump when moving. These connectors are a lot more expensive then I was expecting, I was looking on McMaster and there like 20 bucks a piece. Hope its cheaper at home depot

Thank for all your help I appreciate it
Old    Jeff DeVeer (Jeff)      Join Date: May 2010       09-16-2010, 1:33 PM Reply   
If you get swing check valves they don't create any back pressure. It's just a little flap that can only swing in one direction. I think it's the diaphragm types that require a certain pressure to open.
Old    Greg Walker (greg_walker)      Join Date: Mar 2009       09-16-2010, 5:46 PM Reply   
Actually I just thought of they cant be check valves because air will have to flow in reverse when emptying
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       09-16-2010, 7:24 PM Reply   
Is there a reason you wouldn't want to just remove the hard tanks and replace them with 750's?
Old    Jeff Egli (jdoggy_73)      Join Date: Mar 2010       09-17-2010, 12:37 AM Reply   
I'm with polarbill on this one... Try wakemakers for a ballast system upgrade:

http://www.wakemakers.com/mastercraf...m-upgrade.html
Old    Greg Walker (greg_walker)      Join Date: Mar 2009       09-17-2010, 5:29 AM Reply   
Ya I came across that website last night starting wondering about doing that, think Id be able to sell those tanks or use them somewhere else. There kind of a weird shape not sure if theyd fit anywhere. I still need to add some tanks in the front but I dont think theyd fit under the seats. Just seems a bit of a waste to not use perfectly good tanks. If I could get rid of those offset the cost somehow Id do that its defiantly a simpler setup
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       09-17-2010, 7:13 AM Reply   
Greg, we had an 06 X1, and my advice is to follow Brett's advice and scrap the hard tanks. They are just too small, but their design takes up quite a bit of space in the lockers. Take them out and put in the 750's (or 450's if you want less). That was actually a project of mine, until we got the Star. But make sure if you are putting that much weight in the back, you are putting some weight in the front.

I doubt you would be able to sell those hard tanks.
Old    Jeff DeVeer (Jeff)      Join Date: May 2010       09-17-2010, 9:03 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_walker View Post
Actually I just thought of they cant be check valves because air will have to flow in reverse when emptying
True on the hard tanks but on the bags it's actually preferred to no let air be drawn in when draining. I wasn't suggesting you put them on the hard tanks just on the vent for the bags.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       09-17-2010, 11:45 AM Reply   
If you replace the hard tanks with 750's or whatever size bag you choose I think you just have to buy the fittings so the stock hoses fit the bags and you are golden. You may have to put a one way/check valve between the bag and overflow so that no air is drawn in when emptying. You want to do this so the bags empty completely.

Replacing with the bags has to be the easiest plus then when the bags are empty you have pretty much the entire lockers for storage. 750's also give you a good start for surfing.
Old    Spencer (spencerwm)      Join Date: Feb 2009       09-17-2010, 12:10 PM Reply   
Greg you will be stoked on the 750 lb. Fat Sacs. The tank buster is easy to install. I agree with Brett, the surf wake is way better.
Old    Gary (sanger)      Join Date: May 2002       09-18-2010, 12:07 PM Reply   
I think it's already been said but the guys at WakeMakers know their stuff. They can probably answer all of your questions with one call. What I will say is a huge benefit to removing the tanks and just having bags (400 or 750) is the space you gain when they are empty for storage and the extra room you will have when working on the engine (ie oil changes and stuff). That's what I did with my X1 and it was money well spent.
Old    Swatguy (xstarrider)      Join Date: Jun 2007       09-18-2010, 8:47 PM Reply   
Another vote for removing the Hard tanks. Have the same boat and run the 750's. The bags just plug into the factory/old lines. I had to add a couple inches of hose and a check valve but that was it.

Piece of cake and way better than a tank/bag combo
Old    Greg Walker (greg_walker)      Join Date: Mar 2009       09-19-2010, 11:23 PM Reply   
Ya you guys have me convinced a lot easier to just install the 750s, the extra money id spend on valves and fittings I can just get the bigger bags. Plus I never liked the hard tanks, you can never tell if there empty for sure, nice to be able to physically see the bags.

And ya I havent forgotten about weight in the front, I was going to add a new bag under the front seats. Does the X2 bag fit in the X1, I know its a double point so its wider, maybe the bags wouldn't be able to fill completely?
Old    Spencer (spencerwm)      Join Date: Feb 2009       09-21-2010, 11:41 AM Reply   
Most people just install the Fly High Integrated Bow Sac up there. No need to go with the more expensive X2 bag.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       09-21-2010, 12:46 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by spencerwm View Post
Most people just install the Fly High Integrated Bow Sac up there. No need to go with the more expensive X2 bag.
That bag still doesn't really fill that much does it? What are people getting? 250-300 pounds at the most under the seats?

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