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Old    Razzman (razzman)      Join Date: Dec 2006       09-13-2010, 3:12 PM Reply   
Thought i'd share my new tower/amp setup with everyone. Just installed four of the Exile SXT65 tower speakers along with an Exile Harpoon amp to power them. I know some will say that these aren't HLCD's and your right. I didn't feel the need for them and after adding these to the tower i'm glad i did! These things are loud and super clear! Tried them on the lake yesterday boarding, surfing and yes even tubing and all behind the boat said they could hear them loud and clear.

Just for giggles I anchored in a cove and climbed the hill way up behind the boat and they were super clear way beyond 150' and i dare say maybe even double that but the bushes stopped my progess

The SXT65 has a more dynamic range than your normal HLCD, i wasn't looking to blast the lake just something that sounded great and covered the riders zone and these definately do it. I'm only running the Harpoon at 50% and i can't imagine how loud they be with more power!

The cool part is they don't overpower the cabin at speed and with the Throttle Box on the Harpoon you can shape the sound field for boarding, surfing or hanging out. The hidden wiring is a big plus as well. Definately way cool.

If your looking for something that doesn't break the bank you might look into these, cheers!
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Old    Andrew Taft (taft)      Join Date: Jul 2006       09-13-2010, 3:44 PM Reply   
I must have my Exiles configured wrong or something. I've got the Xm7s and the Harpoon... but I've been a bit disappointed so far. They distort pretty easily, and don't really do much for me aside from give plenty of highs when surfing.
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       09-13-2010, 3:51 PM Reply   
Andrew, who tuned your system? If properly tuned you should be loving the XM7's

Razzman, that looks awesome and compliments the boat beautifully. Were you naked on the tower before?
Old    Andrew Taft (taft)      Join Date: Jul 2006       09-13-2010, 3:57 PM Reply   
The guy that did the install set everything up. The install was super clean and nice, but lately I've been thinking he must have botched the tuning.

And ya, those Exiles in all black look sick. I've been wanting to do something about the chrome colour on mine. Blackout could be the way to go.
Old    Razzman (razzman)      Join Date: Dec 2006       09-13-2010, 4:10 PM Reply   
Thanks Hate, i had a Loud Liquid glass box up there before with four JBL 6x9's but i was never happy with it for obvious reasons.

Andrew, there's a recommended preset starting point for the Harpoon when running XM7's or SXT65's. If you want that info let me know and i can forward to you.
Old    Bawshogg (bawshogg)      Join Date: Dec 2005       09-13-2010, 4:45 PM Reply   
I have been running a "hybrid" setup of sorts for the last few months now, and I couldn't be happier. I have 4 SXT65 and two XM7's for a total of 6 running off the Harpoon at a 1.3 ohm load. I will say quite possibly the best ovreall setup for my use. I really like the mellow output of the SXT65, and when I say mellow, you would have heard what 4 or 6 XM7's sounds like to be able to compare. The SXT65 is a badas lil speaker. I did some initial testing at 75 ft back with just the 4 SXT65's and was wowwed by how clear I could actually hear them. Keep in mind that the rest of the system is very well balanced and has plenty of gas in the mid and low range area to make it to the rider. Exile BIG12 with a XI2500.1 beatin that thing up.
I am blown away with the overall sound quality of the 65's, way more pleasant in the boat than ANY horn based speaker I have heard, and they get sound out to the rider to boot.
The Harpoon is a beast! 1.3 ohms all day long , pushing 1400-1500 watts at that load. I have had it go into thermal protect twice, but here is the skinny. 4.5-5 hours solid run time at full volume in 90+ degree weather. I don't usually bang this hard for that long, but I wanted to see what it would put up with. It only seems to be an issue if voltage gets down towards the 12V mark also. I was able to fire the engine both times and after 4-5 mins of running getting the system voltage above 12.5 it would come back on and keep rockin. Low voltage= higher amp draw, thus more heat stack. I have never had it go into protect while riding or underway. That thing is a monster for sure.
I my honest opinion, and yes I have owned several different horn based speakers, and heard about all of them, My ears like the tweet based offering much better. Maybe I am old, but I really don't feel horns are a must at this stage. Now that we have some real high output marine based tower speakers and some wicked power to back them up the options have gotten alot sweeter.

Last edited by bawshogg; 09-13-2010 at 4:48 PM. Reason: punctuation.
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       09-13-2010, 5:38 PM Reply   
Wow Baws, I'd think that would be hard to tune properly off of one amp being that they are such different speakers. It would seem you would have to make a compromise on one or the other, more likely the HLCD's.
Old    Brady (pdxWAKE.com) (big_b_21v)      Join Date: Oct 2006       09-13-2010, 5:57 PM Reply   
After hearing Brandon's setup we are heading the same direction. I am currently running one XM7 and one SXT65. I am so impressed with the SXT65 that I am heading towards two sets in the stock locations with a pair of XM7's to hit the highs. I will but placing these on the rear ring of the XS tower to throw the highs above everyones head in the back of the boat

I have noticed that I need to tone back the Harpoon a bit for the SXT65's differently than when I was running the 2 pair of XM7's. I will wait and see when the 3 pairs are all running to make final tuning adjustments.

Andrew, just an FYI, there is a crossover inside your speaker cans that can be switched to run a little tamer. They come shipped with the crossover wideopen. If you aren't liking the highs so high, I would switch the crossover to the sound quality setting.

Maybe I am getting old like Bawshogg, But I can do without the highs and enjoy a better audiophile setup these days. Bill over at Exile sure does understand sound quality over just plain loud noise.

Kuddos, +1, and 2 thumbs up to the whole Exile Team for making a huge splash in 2010.

Cant wait to see what the winter months bring for 2011.
Old    Bawshogg (bawshogg)      Join Date: Dec 2005       09-13-2010, 7:46 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by hatepain View Post
Wow Baws, I'd think that would be hard to tune properly off of one amp being that they are such different speakers. It would seem you would have to make a compromise on one or the other, more likely the HLCD's.
Not really very different at all. The SXT65 uses the same midbass driver as the XM7. Take an XM7 , delete the horn out the middle and add a 1' titanium tweeter to the grill and a tweak the crossover slighty. Whala! you have an SXT65. Not hard to tune at all. You tune the amp as one would normally tune and use the horn based speaker as your barometer. I personally prefer SQ over all out volime and that's how I went about it. It is something to check out for sure. The one set of horns give you just the slight throw you need and the 2 coax based fill the near field and fill the boat with pleasant sounds. In an essence it somewhat masks the inherent harness at close field that most of these HLCD's have. Surfing the pocket feels like the dance floor at your favorite club. I doubted it would work at first, but after doing several hours of testing I think it's a pretty damn good setup, haven't found many that will disagree.
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       09-13-2010, 7:49 PM Reply   
I really like the Exile XM7s and SXT65s independently. The SXT65 gives up a little of the ultimate projection for a little smoother sound. The SXT65 with its continuous midbass driver has a little more surface area. And the direct radiating dome tweeter (non-HLCD) is certainly aggressive enough to qualify as a true tower speaker.
But I don't recommend mixing the two on the same tower and here are a few of my concerns. You have two very different speaker constructions in a) different response curves, b) different power handling, c) different effeciency and d.) different speakers don't sum in amplitude as effeciently as identical speakers. So you would definitely want to run the XM7s and SXT65s on separate channels so that you could independently tune and balance these. That may raise the system cost some for no gain in amplitude in comparison to how that power could have been otherwise utilized. However, at some point one speaker will have to be under-utilized to balance with the other or over-driven to keep pace with the other. Its a little harder to tune since the dominate peaks tend to overwhelm our perception and the dominate speaker can mask the weaker speaker as it begins to compress or distort. And this mixing of speakers will often lead to a greater number of speaker failures due to the conditions described above.
So if you understand the risks and compromises up front but you really want to try and mix/balance the two different characteristics of these two speakers to get the sound you want, then go ahead. I'm not so concerned about some of the experienced guys doing this. But I am concerned about the majority. If Andrew's installer could mistune an easy one imagine what he could do with dissimlar speakers and even dissimilar power. In advance, this isn't a criticism of those who have or wish to do this, its simply giving prospective users both sides of the decision. Personally, I would rather see the use of an equalizer in one form or another to get the exact balance of sound you are looking for.

David
Earmark Marine
Old    Bawshogg (bawshogg)      Join Date: Dec 2005       09-13-2010, 8:09 PM Reply   
Believe me when I say this Dave. I was on the same side of the coin when this notion came about. It was really almost a mistake that this setup came about anyway. I worked directly with Brian and Bill at Exile with this one. It was one of those deals where they were like"just try it, let's see what happens". Bill and Brian both were shocked with the end results. In a nutshell, this was "real world" testing, In the enviriment that they were intended to be used . It actually works really well ! In a sound lab test, maybe not, it may not be so hot. But out on the water, it works. Is it a setup a rookie can put together and tune? Maybe not, but someone that has a little bit of knowledge can make it through it.
Old    Cade Osborne (kruiserkat)      Join Date: May 2010       09-13-2010, 8:43 PM Reply   
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But out on the water, it works. Is it a setup a rookie can put together and tune? Maybe not, but someone that has a little bit of knowledge can make it through it.
I will say this, I was one of the guys on the boat when we were testing the sxt65's at 75' feet with and without the xm7's, and I wish I had room on my tower for the additional horns. The clarity difference is very noticable at distance but not overwhelming in the boat as BawsHogg has already said. Incredible sound. This boat went from 4 xm7's to this set up and what a night and day difference. Best of bolth worlds in my opinion. And I personally hated the old set up. Guess I am old also. I would also say that the guys over at Exile are more than willing to walk anybody through the Harpoon set up. Shoot I think taking a picture of the amp settings would be a shoe in for anybody to accomplish this task. It's not rocket science, David, why not educate and have a rockin system than tell people to not do this? Don't you sell Exile?
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       09-13-2010, 8:49 PM Reply   
Bawshogg, I don't doubt that it does sound very good with a liitle extra bite at long range over the conventional coaxials. Since we do several hundred boat installs a year we have done a number of similar procedures and I completely understand what you were after in trialing this. So no theory here, just lots of experience in the trenches. Last season Hate brought up the same idea in mixing in a pair of Bullet HollowPoint 770 coaxials with his existing two pair of HollowPoint 770 HLCDs. At that time we had the identical exchange. I think the ultimate solution would be to have multiples of the same Exile SXT65 speakers with a supplemental high frequency compression horn only in a small package. This way you would get all of the benefits but with none of the concerns.

David
Earmark Marine
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       09-13-2010, 9:45 PM Reply   
Cade,
It always seems to be a moving target. First a speaker builder introduces an HLCD speaker that truely projects at 80 feet with authority in the face of engine noise and is the final word in sound quality too. Kind of a contradiction. So then we see schemes to find a better balance between near field sound quality and long range projection, as an example, the WetSounds Double-Up, the HollowPoint 770 hybrid coaxial and the Exile Mix. NVS has completely re-voiced his speakers several times to find a balance between these two objectives. I'm all for the above mix approach as I do see the sonic benefits....as long as someone educates those who are entertaining this idea as to some of the concerns. And that is precisely what I'm trying to do. I'm not trying to discourage as much as I am making sure everyone sees the whole picture. The HLCD tweeter has a 2-inch voice coil while the coaxial has a 1-inch voice coil. The difference in thermal power handling is drastic. Its the same as running a JL Audio W0 and W6 woofer off the same amplifier. It would never be done...for long. So its possible that the uninformed could be popping 1-inch titanium domes if they don't receive some guidance in advance. Again, there are those who would take the extra care in tuning and use their equipment with a degree of restraint. Then there are those who are all about LOUD only and this could be a prescription for problems. Of course they'll blame it on crappy product which wouldn't be the real cause. These users might be better served by staying purely with HLCDs. My musical taste might gravitate towards the SXT65. Others might like the 'Mix' scheme. Its all good. If I was a consumer looking at all my options I would be glad that someone is looking out for me and explaining the pros and cons. Then I can make an informed decision.

David
Earmark Marine
Old    Bawshogg (bawshogg)      Join Date: Dec 2005       09-13-2010, 10:02 PM Reply   
I'm sure Brian will chime in on this . The mid-bass drivers in the SXT65 and XM7 are virtually the same sans dust cap, as so I am told from the designers. There is also differing specs on what the SXT65 will handle power wise. I have seen 150rms advertised, and 250rms alike. After disecting it and seeing the driver, it's a healthy one, but we will wait for the official word form the Exile guys. They don't seem to have an issue with it being driven the way it has been used and have no problems taking care of something , should a problem arise for the next 2 years. I will choose to side with my ears and the guys that designed the stuff. I have gotten nothing but rave reviews form the people that had have a chance to ride behind it , in the boat, and at the cove.
So I guess the question that comes to mind is this, If a SXT65 and XM7 share the same midbass driver, and the only difference is the horn or tweeter in the middle, and the ultimate setup would be to have a stand alone horn, Is that not just around the corner from where we are now? Sounds pretty close,- a dust cap and 1 tweet.
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       09-13-2010, 11:43 PM Reply   
Bawshogg,
Okay, let's narrow it down to just the tweeter. Let's say that the HLCD (horn) tweeter is 6dB more sensitive than the titanium dome in the coaxial. That shouldn't be a stretch. That means its output is the equivalent of four times the amplifier power. Now, let's say the HLCD 2-inch voice coil has twice the thermal power handling of the 1-inch titanium dome. Again, regardless of specs, that is a fair and conservative estimate. So collectively we have a 9dB differential which translates to doubling our power three times over or a 1 to 8 power ratio. Now, if the guy who is tuning the system balances the speakers based on the peak output which is the treble section of either speaker, then this is how the system gets into trouble. However, if the person cuts the treble (momentarily for tuning purposes only) and balances the speakers based on the midbass only and then restores the treble then the power handling will be more equalized. It seams simple enough but most people will tune the contrasting speakers based on their perception of peak output (volume) because that is the dominant perception. Your system has the advantage (as I understand it) of two coaxials to one HLCD. But in a one to one system or in a system with two HLCDs to one coaxial there is even a greater potential for burnt dome tweeters. I will sell the 'Mix' in a heartbeat but I'll make sure that the HLCDs and coaxials have independent amplifier channels and I'll make sure the consumer gets the proper set-up and tuning instructions. This is audio 101 and is independent of brand. Its one of the reasons why Tim at WetSounds recommends a 4-channel amplifier to drive the conventional Double-Up. Phil with Kicker or Jamie with Bullet HollowPoint would see this the same way I'm sure.

David
Earmark Marine
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       09-14-2010, 7:38 AM Reply   
No worries Bawshogg whether or not the setup is supposed to sound good or not it sounds awesome and is definitely the way I'm going this winter. Kinda like the sub and box combo right, isn't supposed to sound good, but sure as hell does. At least that's what anyone who's ACTUALLY ever heard it says .
Old    Bawshogg (bawshogg)      Join Date: Dec 2005       09-14-2010, 8:37 AM Reply   
Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!
Old    Razzman (razzman)      Join Date: Dec 2006       09-14-2010, 8:46 AM Reply   
LOL! Thanks everyone for the comments. I confess I'm old as well and these days sound quality sounds way better to me too. Like Bawshogg said it good to see quality alternatives available now
Old    Diggs (pdxWAKE) (tyler97217)      Join Date: Aug 2004       09-14-2010, 9:24 AM Reply   
Razzman
Those look great on your boat. Love the black grills.
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       09-14-2010, 10:14 AM Reply   
I'd love to hear the combo, Nu told me they sound excellent together but I'd like to judge for myself. As David said its been something I was kicking around, more for a little more mid bass and in and around boat sound fill. I can see Davids point that in the wrong hands you could be blowing tweeters pretty easily and I do believe it would be hard to tune especially off of one amp. It seems to me that the tweeters would be competing and that clearly the HLCD's win that battle. However, electrical theory always translates in the real world but sound quality being subjective the same may not always be true of the expressive quality of musical theory. To my mind it really does seem best to have them on seperate channels/amplifiers but I do trust the guys at Exile and hey they have a hell of a return policy

Nu, I might know a guy interested in your 770's six across the tower would look just about right.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       09-14-2010, 11:52 AM Reply   
It seems like them Exile dudes keep doing the impossible, sounds like they understand theory and application are two different animals. Meaning what sounds good on paper doesn't always produce the same result in the application in which it is used. I think they have a couple other tricks up their sleeve.

Hate I'll keep you posted on the 770's.

Last edited by 05mobiuslsv; 09-14-2010 at 11:57 AM.
Old    Brian (brianinpdx)      Join Date: Aug 2009       09-14-2010, 12:08 PM Reply   
Razz As I mentioned on the Moomba forum, I think your setup looks great and should be a huge improvement over the past setup in power, performance and sound. Congrats on your upgrade and welcome to the Exile club!

I think its somewhat unfortunate that this thread has turned into a tech fest at Razzmans expense. These threads do have a way of evolving. Since the points have been made Ill address each.

Taft lets start with you. Not sure whats going on with your setup but lets get your sorted out and put a smile back on your face. Id be happy to spend some time helping you tune your setup properly by teaching you step by step. From just the little info I read here, it sounds like something along the food chain is distorting. There can be several reasons for this. The speakers typically get blamed but often times it equates to garbage in, garbage out. Shoot me an email to brian@exileaudio.com with your contact info and well get you organized.

Baws / Brady / Nubu / Cade / David Everyone has fair points on this great technical debate. Heres how Ill chime in. I had a phone conversation yesterday with Earmark about a similar subject on woofers and Exiles product direction and the market in general. It gave me some perspective how David views things. There are many levels of product application and configuration and they all have their place in the world. (i.e. woofer sizes). He pointed out to me that he is a merchant, and enthusiast, and as such is faced with a myriad of daily inquiries asking how to have a Ferrari setup on a Hyundai budget or how to fix a system that was designed poorly from the start. (David my phone rings off the hook about that too). My point is, when he reads some of the things happening here at the elite level hes worried that guys will not/do not realize what or how to get this installed, setup, figured out, maintained, tuned etc. My opinion is he becomes the voice of academic reason. Nothing wrong with that.

All that aside, it should be pointed out that guys like Bawshogg knows what he is talking about when it comes to this industry. Hes actually a Senior Ford technical specialist with more experience with charging / power systems than anyone I know. Part of the reason his stereo is so dialed is what hes doing out of sight with the powerflow setup. We call him the Sheppard because hes like the guy that walks quietly among us but has knows his S@#$. Trust me when I say, hes got skills and has owned just about every brand of gear out there on his boat. What Baws is doing on his boat is something that is leading edge today and others will find mainstream in the years to come in some derivative. This is why some of the information on these forums is so great. But it can also be just as dis-informative too. One thing I think we should all be able to agree on is that change is inevitable. Things evolve. What we are doing in 2010 will be different in 2011.

Audio Theory 101- 401: The reason this tower config works so well sounds so well is because Baws has departed from the stock speaker setups. His execution is far more important than just the gear selected. The devil is always in the details!

From the tweeter point of view: His horns on the XM7s have been, dampd down ~ 6dB of to eliminate excessive efficiency (by flipping an internal switch inside the pod) and then effectively combined this modification with physically positioning the horn pods in a way to help time align the XM7 mounting location in relation to the SXT65 pods. This creates an array effect that has acoustical benefits when combined with the throttle box ability to adjust the HLCDs phase angles from narrow to wide. What you end up with in simple speak is two different technologies modified to work well together - A hybrid sound field that is warm and open feeling up close but still projects at distance.

From a Midbass point of view: the SXTs have been reinforced (stiffer suspensions) to keep up with whats happening on the XM7s. As David pointed out, the SXT actually gets a midbass benefit by having its tweeter coincidently mounted (in the grill) design.

Running this whole array from the Harpoon does bring up concerns on paper, i.e. power delivery versus handling. The SXT tweeters have adequate protection upgraded into the system that allows them not to be over driven. Additionally the amplifier used on this tower array is running steep slope 18dB roll offs, as to deliver a focused bandwidth of frequencies to the tower. Otherwise, the midbass coming off the tower would physically crush the cones onto the grills. I cant recall Baws -3db down point but the transition is very smooth.

From the power delivery point of view, the harpoon has 9.6 grams of aluminum per millimeter and can run down to 1.3 ohm safely still operate within its SOA. (we rate this amplifier at 2 ohms). Heat generation is also a concern because the amplifier is academically capable of producing 1400watts of RMS power. Part of what people hear on Baws tower is the incredible dynamic range because of the increased power delivery of the amplifier. This is not to be confused with a user jamming 10 times the rated power at a speaker. In fact his gains are able to be run lower in this setup. Other subtle things like the amplifiers triple darlington output stage also comes into play because it offers a third output stage that becomes noticeable with this speaker array..

This is an expensive amplifier and expensive speaker setup intended for elite users that want A LOT of performance. Youll see some more of this from us next year.

Cheers!

-Brian
Exile Audio
Old    Tampa Wake (tampawake)      Join Date: Mar 2008       09-14-2010, 12:22 PM Reply   
Brian

HUH?

Does any of this have to do with my muffler ball bearings or my kanooter valve?
Old    Murphy Smith (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       09-14-2010, 12:49 PM Reply   
Brian,

Since the XM-9's are slated to be out this winter....I am going to assume that you are going to shortly roll out an XM-9 without a horn (similar concept of a MB-8)

Wouldn't it make more sense for those looking for a fuller & richer sound to do a set of XM-7's with a set of XM-9's sans horns.

Now I would really impressed with you if you were to design and XM-9 that have you the option to activate and deactivate the horn in the speaker. That would be pretty neat to see, not even sure if it could be done.
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       09-14-2010, 1:05 PM Reply   
Thanks for the explination Brian. I love Exiles innovative and outside the box thinking, its definitely moving the needle for you guys in the marine audio world.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       09-14-2010, 1:48 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by tampawake View Post
Brian

HUH?

Does any of this have to do with my muffler ball bearings or my kanooter valve?
Don't try to keep up with a mad scientist.
Old    Razzman (razzman)      Join Date: Dec 2006       09-14-2010, 1:49 PM Reply   
Thanks again Brian as usual!

Which brings up a point i'd like to make and i'm aware has been said before but i'd like to reiterate on Exile's over-the-top customer service once again! I recieved my Exile gear last week and proceeded to tear into the install. After all was done and fired up i had some serious popping and crackling and Brian came to my rescue on Saturday while out with his family! After diagnosing as he instructed we narrowed it down to a failed head unit which after replacing it all was good.

Thanks again Brian and Exile for superior support of our sport!
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       09-15-2010, 5:50 AM Reply   
Brian,
I complimented the SXT65s and RAZZ's selection in my initial post here and I want to reiterate that the SXT is a favorite of mine with no reservations. I absolutely trust that Bawshogg has more than enough experience and know-how to make great choices and implement them effectively. The concerns that I aired were intended only as a cautionary note, particulary for novices, as there are some potential issues for someone who is less likely to understand and execute all the 'details'. Unfortuneately those comments always seem to prompt a certain amount of defensiveness that isn't intended. Hopefully we're past that phase now and I think your post helped defuse all that.

Brian,
I appreciate many of the points you made in your post here and some of those points raise other questions:
1) So you dialed down the XM7 tweeters 6dB. Doesn't that negate much of the benefit of the HLCD and why not just use three pair of SXTs in similar applications? Yes, a horn has a more narrow and focused polar pattern but we just reduced the HLCD's high frequency energy by 75 percent (wattage wise) and in comparison to the sum of twice as many dome tweeters. Were the horns spread at different angles versus the SXT domes?
2) You mentioned that the XM7 was staggered in some way to bring the long throat of the XM7 tweeter into time alignment with the SXT tweeters. By doing so that would also serve to place the midbass drivers out of alignment. How did you prioritize? Was the mounting out of necessity to fit, trial and error or a calculated decision? Please explain that process so we can apply it.
3) Pertaining to the above, in a horizontal array wouldn't the time alignment benefits be fleeting at any other off-axis position other than a very narrow sweet spot? I would think that as you changed position with every few degrees that phasing becomes a whole new ballgame. I'm positive with that much power and with that many great speakers that it sounded awesome but I'm wondering if the phase scheme is the element that should actually get the credit.
4) You mentioned that the T-box adjusts the HLCDs phase angles from narrow to wide. I'm aware that with any equalization you are enacting a non-linear (unequal) change in the amplitude response and that automatically coincides with a non-linear change in the phase response. I understand that 'amplitude' and 'phase' are inseparable in this respect. So I get all that. But I'm at a loss as to how the T-box can actually manifest a change in "phase angles' with any degree of detectability and predictability. This is an entirely new premise to me and I am eager to understand the nuts and bolts of this. Again, I'm positive the reference system sounds fantstic but I'm wondering if we are correctly assigning cause and effect here. Please explain how the T-box is different from a single band EQ with a particular hinge and turnover frequency to fit the typical HLCD.
5) Isn't the T-box functioning on all the tower speakers?

The difference between 'thoery' and 'real world application' is that theory often doesn't account for all the variables you get when put to task in the field. The laws of mother nature do not suddenly change from the lab to the real application. The missing bridge is the variables that must be trialed and tested. And because of this there is no greater asset than hands on experience. With some repetition you begin to recognize patterns and from there you try and establish a few solid truisms which without question causes a few old truisms that you used to believe in to be disproved and discarded. And you test these truisms over time. You can also begin to anticipate some of the variables with each application that will impact the outcome. I try to share these truisms that are tempered by exposure to hundreds of installations in providing the right guidance. And I usually analyze these experiences to death in order to get it right. Brian, help me and others put a few square pegs in square holes with some insight we can use and put to task. As I said I'm eager to learn and add a few tricks to the bag. In advance, thank you.

David
Earmark Marine
Old    Tampa Wake (tampawake)      Join Date: Mar 2008       09-15-2010, 6:24 AM Reply   
Does not make much since to me to argue and disagree with a manufacturer you buy from in open public. Its your business but I own my own company and if I did this type of thing I would be getting hammered from the manufacturers I rep. IMOP you should have back channeled that.
Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       09-15-2010, 6:46 AM Reply   
I like the open enviorment discussion between the two. It shows either of them have nothing to hide and lets us as the consumer have a better understanding.

"This will be on CSPAN" (if anyone gets that joke)
Old    Phil White (philwsailz)      Join Date: Feb 2009       09-15-2010, 6:50 AM Reply   
Old    Who Cares (liljohn)      Join Date: May 2007       09-15-2010, 7:33 AM Reply   
I don`t post often but I must say that I enjoy these conversations.. I think David spends alot of time asking queshtions that he knows the answers to he is just looking to inform the not so stereo savy people. We have audiophiles around here that build some awsome systems. They come on here and post up how great it is and then people who are not so savy want to duplicate it. Well what is never posted is the details. For example how the system is charged how it was tuned etc. From that aspect I see why David asks the queshtions. To inform all of us not so savy audio people who just learned that mixing speakers sounded great. when in fact most of us will screw it up and be on here next week complaining about how it sounds like crap, Or blowing up Brian or Tims phone/ email with help me fix my system queshtions. Some systems are not ment to be had by most people.
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       09-15-2010, 7:50 AM Reply   
Yes, This is definitely a discussion and not a debate. And everyone deserves a voice and opinon.
While I have been in the home, car and boat entertainment electronics biz for many, too many years, I still encounter thought provoking issues on this forum that cause me to go back and review what I thought I knew. And sometimes I have to ammend my opinion or position based on what I've learned from people here. But if I'm going to be giving advice then I want to benefit from all sources of knowledge. And while some of these discussions get a little technical for some, others take alot from them as I recognize many of the things that are learned as they are parroted later.

David
Earmark Marine
Old    Phil White (philwsailz)      Join Date: Feb 2009       09-15-2010, 8:16 AM Reply   
Just to jump in and post something other than a picture of some movie theater snacks...

(Sorry Razz, adding to the hijack! )

Suppose someone made a true high-fidelity horn; a real horn, you know? Something with a geometry that would not support standing waves and resonance that contribute to the phasey and peaky soud that horns so often are, (often accurately) accused of? Such a horn will probably have a geometry with no sections of constant area anywhere along its length, (basically all flare and no "throat") and as a result, fairly broad dispersion characteristics. Throw a quality compression driver on the back with a flat linear resonse and you have a pretty decent acoustic device that is good and efficent, delivering natural sound with flat frequency response... With a flat frequency response and a lack of "that horn sound" such an HF driver would sound really good up close...


Couple that horn-based transducer with an efficient direct-radiating mid-range driver, and build an audiophile quality crossover that address both the HF driver and the LF driver to keep impedance flat and uniform, while delivering a flat uniform frequency response.

Take that system, massage on it to maximize efficiency, and then work with its thermal capacities so that it would handle a ton of power. What efficiency would be necessary? What power handling?

If someone could do that, wouldn't the whole argument over near-field vs. "at the end of the rope" go away? If you could build something that sounded awesome up close, while still cranking it out at 75 feet, wouldn't you be able to get away with a single solution? I think it is doable, what about you guys?

Phil
Kicker

Last edited by philwsailz; 09-15-2010 at 8:19 AM.
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       09-15-2010, 8:26 AM Reply   
Phil,
Why don't you create a dedicated thread on this as it sounds like a great discussion.

David
Earmark Marine
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       09-15-2010, 9:05 AM Reply   
This thread is great.

Phil could you build what you're talking about and make it aesthetically pleasing to look at as well? My guess is probably not.
Old    Phil White (philwsailz)      Join Date: Feb 2009       09-15-2010, 9:26 AM Reply   
Nu-

I don't see why not. What would be the aesthetic issues outside of the HLCD products already out there on the market?

It would take a horn with a larger flare end at the air terminus, and due to the geometry, (for a decent low-end cutoff) it would have a cross-section through its midpoint that likely prevented coaxial mounting in all but very large midrange drivers, but other than that, all we are talking horns and direct radiating cone drivers, all of which are already being built by some fine companies in this market.

I am considering a new thread, but in the meantime, it is worth looking at history, and different geometries. I checked the Wikkipedia link here and found it fairly friendly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horn_loudspeaker
The different types of horn geometries are explained in relative detail, without going TOO deep.

David at Earmark also has a good read here:
http://earmarkmarine.com/articles/HL...er_anatomy.htm

His paper does a good job of talking about horns in general, but also talks to the specific application we area talking here, specifically HLCDs used on wake towers.



Phil
Kicker

Last edited by philwsailz; 09-15-2010 at 9:28 AM.
Old    Brian (brianinpdx)      Join Date: Aug 2009       09-15-2010, 12:01 PM Reply   
Dave – I realize my response probably raised more questions that it does provide answers. I don’t have an issue airing these topics in open forum as people genuinely like to be part of the design team so to speak and gain benefit really seeing how this stuff works. I’ll make sure my response includes info for everyone.

As to your questions…

The XM7 horn has a much narrower dispersion characteristic than its counter part SXT65 because of the throat and flare design. Even in its damped down state it’s efficency is still considerably higher than that of a traditional direct radiating dome tweeter. You bring up a good question about just using a 3 set of modified SXT65’s. In theory one would believe that would be the way to go. In practicality, the narrow bandwidth projection pattern combine with the Throttle box offers a dramatic difference in sound stage height and openness when used in the array format (stacked vertically). This hybrid configuration is less optimized in a horizontal manner – meaning spread across a tower.

As for the time alignment this has more to do with the physical positioning of the pods than anything else. My guys are very interested in creating a black box that would induce a desired result but my lips are sealed about these ideas for now.

Here’s two photos to take a look at:

Malibu Tower Hybrid configuration

In this photo you can see that the end result was (a messy boat)—nice work Sheppard! *ahem* The end result is 3 pods on either side, with the XM7 being in the highest mounting position on the bar. This places the HLCD up as high as we can get it. Because the XM7 has a 360 degree clamp, it can be mounted to the bar and pointed straight back on the same horizontal axis as the other pods. From an alignment point of view, its bringing it into range of the rear stacked pod…..

Interestingly, in the trial and testing, it was determined that the farther forward that XM7 pod moves the more pronounced the HLCD sound field becomes. It also has the psycho acoustical effect of lowering the entire sound stage no matter what setting you use on the throttle box controller.. In the picture below you can see the three pods in the array, but notice the horn pod is in the second position. Note: this is NOT where we want the horn. In finality it moved up onto the hoop. One of the nice things about quick disco mounts is it makes for very easy relocations.

Lower sound stage configuration

You asked about the Tbox and equalization. Altering the phase angles (measured in degrees) is not to be confused with equalization by any means. The net result to the human ear will have a altered sound and one could easily say, “ nice eq!” But the execution is not the same. As to explaining how the throttle box works, I must respectfully decline until we have finished the patent process. But I will suggest some homework for you. If you have some free time, setup an HLCD system of any brand speaker and power it with the Harpoon amplifier and engage the Throttle box, sweep it from WAKE to SURF position and measure those results on a real time analyzer and review what you see. Most importantly, compare what the screen shows, with what you really hear.....I think the results will demonstrate why the Tbox is not a 1 band EQ. As you turn the knob and watch the RTA, I also think you’ll say, “wow, that is measurable and predictable…..How’d they do tha????” –For now, that is privileged information that has to stay internal to Exile.

Lastly, yes, the Tbox is operating on all the speakers but has a more applied effect with HLCD. Razzman might be someone to ask how he perceived the Tbox to work on his SXT65 setup. It will be less effective but still viable to shape the sound.

I should probably read this post over and see if it all makes sense to most. I’m short on time so everyone will have to excuse the typo’s and enjoy.

-Brian
Exile Audio

Last edited by brianinpdx; 09-15-2010 at 12:10 PM. Reason: .
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       09-15-2010, 3:53 PM Reply   
Somehow I think that Dave will take his time and formulate another post in response to this with questions he already knows the answer to, or that he knows you can't answer for proprietary reasons. It's starting to get predictable, I for one have a hard time believing it's for the sake of WW myself.
Old    TigeMike (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       09-15-2010, 4:12 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by 05mobiuslsv View Post
Somehow I think that Dave will take his time and formulate another post in response to this with questions he already knows the answer to, or that he knows you can't answer for proprietary reasons. It's starting to get predictable, I for one have a hard time believing it's for the sake of WW myself.
Like your constant pot-stirring is for the sake of WW? Why don't you stay out of it instead of continuing to instigate things. You are the one with the obvious agenda. $.02
Old    Bawshogg (bawshogg)      Join Date: Dec 2005       09-15-2010, 4:14 PM Reply   
Being a long time site member I have seen this debate several times beat to death about mixing coax and hlcd's by Dave. I knew when we first started playing with it that when the word got out that we would see this type of reaction. In my mind this ain't rocket science. It's guys that wanna have a rockin system, that sounds clean, not harsh, gets sound to the rider and keeps the lady's dancing. Are there several ways to skin a cat? Sho nuff ! We just found another that works pretty damn well. I think this one has been derailed enough. FINAL THOUGHTS: IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR AN ALTERNATIVE TO A HIGHER PRICED HLCD TOWER SETUP ,EXILE HAS A GREAT OFFERING IN THE SXT65.
Old    Bawshogg (bawshogg)      Join Date: Dec 2005       09-15-2010, 4:17 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by chpthril View Post
Like your constant pot-stirring is for the sake of WW? Why don't you stay out of it instead of continuing to instigate things. You are the one with the obvious agenda. $.02
Someone has to stir the pot or sh*# sticks to the bottom and burns. Nobody want's that.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       09-15-2010, 4:21 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by bawshogg View Post
Someone has to stir the pot or sh*# sticks to the bottom and burns. Nobody want's that.
Exactly.
Old    Murphy Smith (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       09-16-2010, 11:32 AM Reply   
I can smell it, can you?

Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       09-16-2010, 11:39 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by murphy_smith View Post
I can smell it, can you?

Hell yeah lots of it.
Old    E (22vdrive)      Join Date: Apr 2010       09-16-2010, 1:31 PM Reply   
Brian is it possible to get the sxt65's with the swivel option the xm7's have?
Old    Murphy Smith (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       09-16-2010, 1:39 PM Reply   
Call Samson Tower as well. They may have the clamps are well.
Old    Brian (brianinpdx)      Join Date: Aug 2009       09-16-2010, 2:24 PM Reply   
22Vdrive -

Sorry, no, its not possible at this time. We've had a few requests for it and its something we are looking at offering but would require a complete rework of the design and drive the cost up considerably. Samson offers only the fixed mount design as well - part# SMT65

-Brian
Exile Audio

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