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Old    Brian (factorykitted)      Join Date: Jul 2009       08-31-2010, 5:27 PM Reply   
I will make this as simple as possible.

My current set up:

-(3) Kinetik 2400's - dedicated stereo batteries - run in parallel
-(2) Interstate cranking/starting batteries
-(1) Pro Mariner Pro Sport 20 - dual bank charger

Total = 5 batteries and 1 dual bank charger

My question: Can my Pro Sport 20 charge my (3) Kinetik 2400's as Bank 1 and my (2) Interstates as Bank 2?

Ian @ Pro Mariner says it can't be done and that EACH battery needs its own bank. He basically said that Im not getting a full charge on all my batteries even though the Pro Sport 20 says it's READY/CHARGED. He suggested that I move the Pro Sport 20 (2 bank) on my two Interstates and add a Pro Sport 20 PLUS (3 bank) on to my three Kinetik 2400's. This all makes sense logically.

The curve ball:

I hammered the Kinetiks over the weekend down in the 11's and actually killed one of the Interstates. The boat has been plugged in since Saturday night. I just tested each Kinetik 2400 individually as well as in parallel and the voltage meter read 13 volts both times. My Interstates also read 13 volts as well. If a dual bank battery charge can't charge all these batteries then why am i getting these voltage readings?

I realize that the best thing to do is throw a 3 bank on the Kinetiks 2400's and throw the 2 bank on the Interstates - it surely will charge quicker. Im sure over time the Pro Sport 20 dual bank will crap out due to being over loaded with 5 batteries? But if they say it CANT be done then why am i able to charge the batteries back up?

Thanks in advance!
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       08-31-2010, 5:54 PM Reply   
They also say not to charge golf cart batteries but I do it with mine without issue. I can see how they would want you to buy another charger though. It will charge them but it will take alot longer.
Old    Brian (factorykitted)      Join Date: Jul 2009       08-31-2010, 6:03 PM Reply   
The charger is short money...they offered me the Pro Sport 20 Plus for 117 - usually 190. I doubt they are trying to convince me i need another for a 117 bucks. It sounds like its the right thing to do. I will likely add the 3 bank b/c i want to decrease my charge time... But what im looking for in an answer as to why I am able to charge all batts when they flat out say its impossible....
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       08-31-2010, 6:19 PM Reply   
I received the phone message and we'll talk tomorrow. But for now.... If the two starting batteries are permanently in parallel on a single bank then a dual-bank charger will behave as a single bank charger unless you isolate the two batteries with switches or solenoids while the boat is in storage. If the batteries are identical in size, age and usage, as the starting bank should be, then there is little point in isolating them within their bank. You don't need expensive or inordinately large batteries for starting. However, I would use deep cycle batteries for my starting bank since at times when the stereo bank is fully depleted and on-line with the alternator when the boat is running, it will pull down the starting bank voltage. This won't damage a deep cycle battery but would take a toll on dedicated cranking-type batteries. Keep in mind that when the collective consumption of discharged stereo batteries, the boat operations and the stereo draw exceeds the alternator capacity then the additional current will be drawn from the starting bank when the two banks are on-line and in parallel.
The ProSport will be more than adequate for the starting bank. I would put no less than a really beefy40 amp charger on the stereo bank. Without individual battery isolation within the stereo bank a three bank charger will function as one and there is no harm in this for your specific application. A larger charger would be nice but it is going to challenge a normal 15 amp AC supply. You want your AC charger amperage capacity to be equal to 10 (minimum) to 15 percent of the collective amp/hour reserves for the stereo battery bank. Take no shortcuts here.
You probably need an upgrade alternator for your system if you haven't already addressed this. Or, you need a cascading control scheme to limit the strain on your charging system under certain conditions, like an all-day outting with lots of at rest play time, until you can recharge with the shore charger.
That's the short version.

David
Earmark Marine
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-31-2010, 6:22 PM Reply   
I currently charge my two very large batteries (530 ah) with a Schumacker shore charger thats 15 amps. I've beaten those things down to 50% and am still able to charge them back up. It takes a while but they come back (15 hours). I run them in parallel so I simply connect to the negative of one battery and the positive of another so the charger sees it as one battery. I've talked to two electricians on yachts (one an electrical engineer) and they both say this is the best way to charge paralleled or series batteries as it ensures the most even charge. I have a Professional Mariner Protech i series charger that I have yet to install that has three outputs but when I do I'll be setting it up just the same way.

Brian, your getting those Kinetics 10 amps, if you have it set up the way I do you'll get em back over night and safely.

Nu, they told me the same thing about GC batteries and the PM 20.
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       08-31-2010, 6:32 PM Reply   
Btw, I should have mentioned a recommendation that you call Kinetik. Their position is likely to be that under-charging is as impactful as over-charging in maintaining your battery health. Its not so much an issue that you won't be able to eventually bring the voltage up or the amount of time it takes to fully charge. Its more about balancing the charging capacity to your battery capacity for proper conditioning. Grant and Bill are two of the better information resources on this subject. If you have any doubts you might enlist their opinion.

David
Earmark Marine
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-31-2010, 6:41 PM Reply   
I should also mention with my current set up I run them to 100% on 15 amps when the charger goes into float mode I then continue the charge at 2 amps.
Old     (UNvisible)      Join Date: May 2010       08-31-2010, 6:50 PM Reply   
Hate N pain, thanks for confirming my suspicion. I was helping brian with the batteries this afternoon, and the conclusion that I came to was exactly as you stated... The Pro Mariner 20 2 bank WILL charge the kinetiks (wired in parallel, as a single bank) but it will take a long time, and is possibly over stressing the charger and not absolutely 100% charging the batteries to full capacity (but still able to achieve 13v of output). I recommended to brian he just get a shore charger with the capability to charge 300+ Amp Hours... I'm not aware of a marine grade on board "plug and play" charger that has the kind of capacity. In the end it seems like the Pro Mariner 20 2 bank will get the job done, it's just not the best/most efficient option. What I'm still confused about is why ProMariner would say it absolutely cannot be done (charging the 3 kinetiks on one bank??) Wouldn't a battery charger consider 2-3-4-5??? batteries wired in parallel as a "single cell" (albeit a very LARGE cell)???
Old    Murphy Smith (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       08-31-2010, 6:53 PM Reply   
Brian,

My understanding is that the higher the amperage the quicker the batteries will charge. So a 10 amp charger is twice as fast as a 5 amp charger.

What you need to be concerned more about is the voltage phases of the charger, especially when you hammer them down to 11 volts. Here is some info I found on the Kientik website. I think that the most important stage is the "bulk phase" with voltage of 14 to 14.4

This is off the website:

Kinetik Power Cells can be charged in a properly functioning vehicle charging system or with any high quality 12 volt battery charger. For best results and maximum power output and lifecycle for outboard charging, use a Kinetik power supply or maintainer to charge and maintain your Power Cell. If you are charging with an automotive type charger always use chargers that are “voltage regulated, two stage, Automatic or microprocessor controlled”. Do not use chargers that only have amp settings such as 2, 5 or 10 amp settings that do not regulate voltage. These chargers increase in voltage as the battery or Power Cell charges leading to an over voltage situation that will ruin the cell. This is true for any 12 volt battery or Power Cell. The proper charging range for Kinetik Power Cells is between 13.5 and 14.4 volts. Any quality battery charger will stay in this range. To “bulk” charge or quick charge your Power Cell for one to three hours use voltages between 14 and 14.4 volts. To saturate (fully charge) or maintain your Power Cell for extended periods of times up to months at a time, use a float voltage between 13.5 and 13.8 volts. Kinetik power supplies and maintainers automatically switch from bulk to float charge as needed during the charging process to optimize the performance, lifecycle and charging time of your Power Cell.
Old    Murphy Smith (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       08-31-2010, 7:03 PM Reply   
Pro mariner charger

Stage 1: ProSport Charging
During this mode, the ProSport will use its available charging amps (as controlled
by temperature) until battery voltage is raised to 14.6 VDC (Factory setting for
standard Flooded (Lead-acid) / AGM batteries).
Stage 2: ProSport Conditioning
The ProSport will hold batteries at 14.6 VDC (Factory setting for Flooded (Lead-acid) / AGM
batteries) providing a 100% charge to each battery, while conditioning batteries by desulfating
each battery. Upon completion, the ProSport will go to into its maintenance mode.
Stage 3: ProSport Ready / Maintenance Mode
During this mode, the Red Charging LED and the RED Battery Type LED (Factory set
charge profile for standard Flooded (Lead-acid / AGM Batteries) will turn off indicating
the Charge Process is completed, followed by the Green READY LED turning On.
The Green READY LED and the Blue AC POWER LED will remain on indicating that your
batteries are fully charged and are being maintained with a precision 13.4 Volts DC
Finishing Voltage (Factory set charge profile for standard Flooded (Lead-acid / AGM
Batteries). ProSport’s Ready/Maintenance Mode is perfect for short or long term storage
and will never overcharge your batteries.
Note: Only the Green READY LED and the Blue
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-31-2010, 7:11 PM Reply   
UN, there're are several chargers that are recommended for 300 amp plus set ups. My Protech I series is recommended up to a single 8D (250+ ah)but it'll do more. They also make a 40 amp charger thats for 500 ah+. Xantrex, Charles Industries, Pro Nautic, Newmar, Master Volt and Guest also makes some killer chargers but some of those can easily get over a grand.

Quote:
Wouldn't a battery charger consider 2-3-4-5??? batteries wired in parallel as a "single cell" (albeit a very LARGE cell)???
Yes
Old     (UNvisible)      Join Date: May 2010       08-31-2010, 7:13 PM Reply   
Hate -

I'm aware of chargers that will charge 300-400-600AH... i meant a marine specific "mountable" charger. Are any of those you listed boat mountable and marine rated? That's what I was asking about.
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-31-2010, 7:13 PM Reply   
You should feel special I just answered that question with my 3000 post! LOL
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-31-2010, 7:14 PM Reply   
Yes they all make them for in boat or if you always shore charge in the same spot wall mount.
Old    Murphy Smith (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       08-31-2010, 7:15 PM Reply   
http://www.dualpro.com/products/professional/
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-31-2010, 7:19 PM Reply   
Here are the numbers on the Charles Industries.
Old     (UNvisible)      Join Date: May 2010       08-31-2010, 7:21 PM Reply   
Thanks for the link Hate. Maybe i'm not looking hard enough, but i'm still finding no specific reference to AH capacity for the charger (per bank).... Should I assume that each of those chargers "dont care" about AH, and are just rated in output charging amperage? So if you had 300AH on one bank (3 batteries in parallel), and 120AH on another bank (2 batteries in parallel), you'd probably just need to get a 40 amp dual bank charger, and you'd be fine.
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       08-31-2010, 7:28 PM Reply   
Yeah a 40 amp would be great for that application. If one wanted to spend a little less look at the Pro Tech like I have (about $400) or the Xantrex2 Tru chargers.
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       08-31-2010, 7:38 PM Reply   
We offer the Intelli-Power chargers for larger applications. These use the latest technology with more efficiency. Fan-cooling. Built like a tank. Chargers are not rated in AHs but are rated in amp capacity . The charger total amp rating (all banks combined) should ideally be 10 to 15 percent of the collective battery bank's amp/hour rating. So a 40 amp charger will facilitate a battery bank of up to 400 amp/hours.

David
Earmark Marine
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       08-31-2010, 9:00 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by factorykitted View Post
The charger is short money...they offered me the Pro Sport 20 Plus for 117 - usually 190. I doubt they are trying to convince me i need another for a 117 bucks. It sounds like its the right thing to do. I will likely add the 3 bank b/c i want to decrease my charge time... But what im looking for in an answer as to why I am able to charge all batts when they flat out say its impossible....
The easy answer is because it will, I guess I've been doing the "impossible" all season.
Old    Tallredrider (talltigeguy)      Join Date: Sep 2003       08-31-2010, 9:47 PM Reply   
Pay attention carefully to what Murphy posted above as far as the voltage that the Kinetiks are recommended to be charged to. I looked at the specs of every onboard charger I could find, and none of them meet those standards. The float charge is too high, or too low, or the bulk charge is too low in most cases.

The Xantrex charger I bought is the only one I could find that meets those voltage specs recommended by Kinetik. I am sure I looked at the Promariner, and it is a few tenths voltage out of line with those recommendations. If that really makes a big difference, I don't know, but like David said, undercharging them might be setting you up for failure.

Echo what has been said above. THe charger will charge a huge bank of batteries, but it will be slow to get to the resting state. Overnight might not do it. There are various chemical reasons why charging them faster is more optimal, how that works in the real world is a little gray to me, especially with AGM vs. Lead cells.

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