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Old    Mario (mdaijogo)      Join Date: Mar 2010       06-14-2010, 2:07 PM Reply   
First the details:

2009 F21 Tomcat
Port (leftside) tank full ~ 900lbs
2 Adults and 1 child in the cabin
1 Child in the bow
Driver (of course)
Hyperlight Broadcast 4'9"
Rope length: Don't know. Surf rope was used.


@ 10mph - first baseline
All I saw was turbulent water. No sign of a "wave". Rope length was set to the full length of the rope and one full extension.

@ 11mph
Passengers said I looked "ok". Still no sign of "wave". Rope length was set to full length and 1/2 length of the extension.

@ 12mph
Crap I am getting tired of pulling myself. I do see a "wave" but I keep on catching a front lip trying to pull myself into the "wave". Rope length is just the surf rope itself with no extention

@11.4mph (yay for Zero off)
I am still getting pulled by the boat (feels like wakeboarding). I see the wave and I am "shredding" on it by going up and down the "wave" whilst holding on the rope. At no one point did I feel like the wave was pushing me.

I may try going up to 13mph. That will be next in the "dial" in period.

Lucky for us, we saw someone surfing behind a Maristar 205. The person surfing was practically on the swim step! Is that my problem? Am I starting way to far out?

I really do not want to start using sac of any sort. The only drawback to this, I have an MCL strain that will put me out of commission for about a month.

Mario-
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       06-14-2010, 2:46 PM Reply   
Try inviting more friends, then you will know how much weight you need to have a good surf wave.
Old    JS (dreamer)      Join Date: Nov 2008       06-14-2010, 4:14 PM Reply   
You probably need more weight in the rear locker on the side you surf on. Can you put a fat sac in there and if so how big is the locker?
Old    Brian (TXSurf) (bac)      Join Date: Feb 2008       06-14-2010, 4:41 PM Reply   
Mario, you will definitely want to put some more ballast of some kind, be it sacs, lead, people etc... on the side you are surfing.

While its not uncommon for people to end up riding very close to the boat, the further back you can be the better off you are.
Old    Mario (mdaijogo)      Join Date: Mar 2010       06-14-2010, 5:22 PM Reply   
The locker on the F21 is GINORMOUS. Other F21 owners have put 600lbs in the rear locker. I just want to avoid sacs in general. I really dig the ballast system on the F21. About 1 minute to fill 900lbs of ballast and about one minute to dump.

Mario-
Old    Joe Mc D (jmcdanie)      Join Date: Oct 2009       06-15-2010, 8:25 AM Reply   
Mario, I have a 2010 MB TWB and I purchased 400 lb of pop bags that we use when surfing with only a couple people in the boat. Like you, I LOVE the MB ballast system and the fact that there are NO pumps. We put the 400 lbs in the nose when wakeboarding (awesome wake). Then, we move it to the side we want to surf on when surfing (putting it under the back seat (instead of the lockers since I keep gear in the lockers and it is wuick to put it under the seat our of the way.

The wife does not like fat sacs and with the pop bags, I can move it easily and quickly wherever I need it.

Good luck. once you get the hang of it, it is ALOT of fun. (also, when you say the wave is not forming, are you driving straight? If so, I usually get the rider up and then make a small turn to the side we are surfing on and the wave forms really quickly then straighten the boat back out and ride the endless wave)
Old    Mario (mdaijogo)      Join Date: Mar 2010       06-15-2010, 9:44 AM Reply   
Thanks for the pieces of info. The first time out was definitely a fun one. It will be at least 2 weeks before I go out again. Not sure if I will have a surfboard available to me by then. My wife was driving the boat straight. She is our dedicated driver. She most definitely knows what she is doing.

Does anyone use transom protection when surfing?

I just looked up what pop bags are and was surprised to see that they are not sacs. They are bagged weights.

1. Does this 400lbs affect boat performance?
2. How does the boat trailer with the added weight?
3. Where is the typical location for these? I see that the bow and under the rear seats.

I know this is way early to think about, but has anyone considered adding a switchblade to their boat for surfing? I have read some older archives on WW and they range from "didn't really help" to "I can't live without mine". For 3k, it seems to be a bit pricey, but if it will produce the wave I see on their site I would be happy. Yes, I do know I will need ballast. Lucky for me, my F21 has that.

Has anyone modified their swimstep for surfing?

Mario-
Old    Mitch (wakemitch)      Join Date: Jun 2005       06-15-2010, 11:50 AM Reply   
Its a tough thing to take when you but a boat with factory ballast that claims the world, but for surfing you will need additional ballast to create a decent wake with any wakeboat.
Old    Joe Mc D (jmcdanie)      Join Date: Oct 2009       06-15-2010, 5:40 PM Reply   
They are calld WAKEboats, not WAVEboats...

Though, I have surfed the darkside on my TWB with the stock ballast and a 200 lb driver....
Old    Joe (ilikebeaverandboats)      Join Date: Jul 2007       06-15-2010, 5:59 PM Reply   
Mario, you just need to add some serious weight. your boat will be fine, might need to get a different prop (doubt it). More is better (as long as you position it correctly)

People do modify swim steps, I am currently working on it, debating between aluminum or a wood similar to teak, and plan on rebuilding. Ragboy redid his and its killer. You wont need to do this untill you have a bunch of weight tho, only reason to modify it is to keep it from hurting the lip of the wave.

More weight more weight more weight. Cant say it enough. Nice thing about sacks is that they are water, once water is underwater it doesnt continue to pull you down like lead/sand/rocks would. Running the stuff is simple. Just a bunch of fittings and a little wiring.
Old    Mario (mdaijogo)      Join Date: Mar 2010       06-15-2010, 7:12 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcdanie View Post
They are calld WAKEboats, not WAVEboats...

Though, I have surfed the darkside on my TWB with the stock ballast and a 200 lb driver....
MB's catalog said, "Wakeboat and wakesurf boat..."

Looks like a 500lb fat sac is in my future.

m-
Old    Mitch (wakemitch)      Join Date: Jun 2005       06-15-2010, 7:35 PM Reply   
im going to surf behind my friend's 2009 21 tomcat on tuesday. i have never ridden behind the boat. i have two 450lbs v-drive sacs and im going to try and make something work. i'll let you know how it goes
Old    Mario (mdaijogo)      Join Date: Mar 2010       06-16-2010, 10:30 AM Reply   
Thanks Mitch. Additional 900lbs should make something work!

m-
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       06-16-2010, 1:45 PM Reply   
The F21/TWB surfs great with factory ballast. I ride a Drew Daneillo and weigh 175. My wife, friends, and I never add ballast, don't use a rope, and a few of us can do 360's. The wake is money.
Old    Mario (mdaijogo)      Join Date: Mar 2010       06-16-2010, 2:00 PM Reply   
Alan-

Any info on speed? Seating arrangement? Ballast setup?

Thanks.

Mario-
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       06-16-2010, 2:41 PM Reply   
One tank full, one tank empty. Driver driving and Zero off between 10.4 and 12, depending on how you like it. If you have more than one person in the boat, have them sit in on the weighted side. I have a bunch of sacks, but don't feel like messing with them in the TWB, the wake is great and we can switch sides faster than the next rider can get in the water.
Old    Mario (mdaijogo)      Join Date: Mar 2010       06-19-2010, 3:26 PM Reply   
Mitch-

How did the surf session turn out? How did you use the v-drive sacs?

m-
Old     (bigcatpt)      Join Date: Aug 2007       06-19-2010, 9:58 PM Reply   
Alan at 175# you could surf about any boat wave with the Drew board. Some of us in the 250+ club need a little (a lot) more wave than stock ballast can put out....
Old    Mitch (wakemitch)      Join Date: Jun 2005       06-23-2010, 2:04 PM Reply   
Mario, so i went out yesterday. i was unsuccessful getting the wake i was looking for with the stock ballast and the two flyhigh v-drive sacs. i tried a bunch of speeds using zero off adjusting .1mph at a time. with the two bags stacked in the back locker the wave had decent push. it was clean at the base but there was tons of spray and wash coming over the lip. 10.9mph was what worked best but i couldnt get it clean. it was tough to do lip slides because the board was covered in spray, but its still do able. i was able to get a few shuvs and 360s on it. i think it needs another sac under the passanger seats, the boat definitely has the storage for it.
Old    Mitch (wakemitch)      Join Date: Jun 2005       06-29-2010, 7:27 PM Reply   
So I have gotten a great shape from the tomcat but cant get rid of the spray. what should i do?
Stock port ballast
2 flyhigh V-drive sacs stacked int he back locker
3-4 people on port side
10.9mph
Attached Images
 
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       06-29-2010, 7:41 PM Reply   
If there is a trim tab/wake plate, usually adjust it down to see if that rooster goes away. Some boats throw a big rooster, can be annoying. Mine through one, not that big, when I took off the swim deck to test. So the swim deck in place got rid of it.
Old    Mitch (wakemitch)      Join Date: Jun 2005       06-29-2010, 8:13 PM Reply   
the turbulance isnt coming from the swim deck from what i can see. its coming from the other side of the wake some how. my family's 2002 malibu lsv has the same problem on the port side, but surprisingly the starboard side is awesome (ask RJ)
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       06-29-2010, 8:22 PM Reply   
no, I don't mean the rooster comes from the swim deck, I meant on my boat, the rooster is there when I have the deck removed. I have seen that on other boats, where lowering the wake plate/trim tab helps.
Old    Charles S (Chuch)      Join Date: Mar 2010       06-30-2010, 5:54 AM Reply   
Did you try that same set up on the darkside just to see if its possibly just "that side of the boat" that is difficult to set up? I've never ridden an MB, but love the boats. If you had 1800lbs on that side, and it still looked like that...somethings gotta be off.
Old    Mitch (wakemitch)      Join Date: Jun 2005       06-30-2010, 8:14 AM Reply   
i didnt try the goofy side on the MB. no one was goofy on the boat
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       06-30-2010, 1:36 PM Reply   
Goofy/Starbord side is MUCH better on that boat. Regular/port definitely takes more work.
Old    Mario (mdaijogo)      Join Date: Mar 2010       07-22-2010, 9:05 AM Reply   
Finally got a video of a surf session from Lake McClure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nk1YOnjCwwc

Haven't been able to do anything with this darn knee.

Setup:
Port tank full (900lbs)
5 Adults (3 port side - 1 starboard -taking pics and driver)
Speed: The golden 10.9

m-
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       07-22-2010, 10:03 AM Reply   
First, your feet are wrong, that is the biggest issue. Your back foot looks ok, but your front foot is too far outside, towards your heels. Your front foot needs to be positioned so that your weight is over the center of the board. Here is a good way to "feel" it. If when you get in the "sweetspot" where the boat starts to push you, you are turning in to be in there, your feet or front foot is too far towards your heels. When you are in the sweetspot, you should be centered on board, and NOT have to turn in to stay there.

You wake looks a bit washed out, but I will leave that to dennis or someone with your type of boat to help you, it looks like you have enough of a wave to surf on. But the better the wave, the bigger the sweetspot, and more forgiving to learn.

Watch this video we just did to help you position yourself and learn how to freeride. These are kids we are using, but the concept is the same.

Old    jkw (lakesurfer)      Join Date: Jul 2009       07-22-2010, 5:59 PM Reply   
That is a fairly large rooster tail for a boat going that slow. I would think the swim deck would handle most of it. Does the MB have a wake plate/trim tab? If so, try adjusting it down a little at a time to see if it has any impact. Also, you still need a lot more weight on the surf side , the boat does not look like it has much of a lean to it? Try adding a 750lb to the back locker.

I have an Avy, but our approach is to get a good lean going and then sink the back of the boat down. I also tab the trim tab down 10% to knock down the spray.

Good Luck.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       07-23-2010, 12:04 AM Reply   
Ragboy... what speed do you guys surf at?

The reason I ask is because I have been doing 10.5mph... and my boat (same hull as Mario's) makes a really clean, tall wave (goofy side). But I have to surf a lot closer to the platform than those kids. I'd like to surf that far back. Should I speed up?

This is me surfing behind the TWB. Wave is clean but too close to the boat for my taste.

Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       07-23-2010, 2:55 AM Reply   
I posted several pics and setups here:

http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showt...69#post1612484

But every hull is different. We go 11mph. But even with different weights, the best speed can change. You are not too far away, in oregon. Maybe you can head down here someday and meet us on oroville. Are you going to washington contest?
Old     (rrw71)      Join Date: Feb 2010       07-23-2010, 9:14 AM Reply   
DBC, How is the boat weighted in the picture? R u in a turn?

Rob
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       07-23-2010, 11:37 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrw71 View Post
DBC, How is the boat weighted in the picture? R u in a turn?

Rob
Stock 900lb. tank on the right side. Left side empty.

150lbs. of lead under the bow seats (75lbs. on each side)

11 adults in the boat... all crammed as far over to the right as possible, including 3 in the bow and 2 sitting on the right side of the sun deck.

So figure 900 lbs. of water + 1,700 lbs. of human + 150 lbs. of lead.

The rub rail was at water level (lower than I've ever had it before) and the swim platform was way under water on the goofy side... at least it was when we sitting still.

I don't think I'd be comfortable dipping the boat any further... I was a bit nervous.

Also, the wave seemed much bigger in person. I was a little disappointed in the picture. I just remember it seeming bigger. Maybe I'm fooling myself. Surf pics are hard because it all depends on the angle of camera (photographer was staning up) and where the rider is on the wave. With that said, it was pretty easy to go ropeless, and I'm not even very good.
Old     (rrw71)      Join Date: Feb 2010       07-23-2010, 12:00 PM Reply   
I would think that's enough weight. Judging by the prop wash, it looks like your in a pretty decent left turn. Is that normal to get the wake in the picture?
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       07-23-2010, 12:25 PM Reply   
Since I was riding, I don't know if we were turning or not. As you can see, I was just trying to stay up!

A left turn would actually make the wave look a bit smaller and more washy, right? Perhaps that's what's going on here.

Check out this pic from last year. Same boat (MB TWB), same rider (me), same ballast (900lbs), same speed (10.5mph). But much less people in the boat (2 adults and 4 kids) and no lead (not that 150lbs. is very much). To me this pic looks bigger and cleaner. Probably becuase of no left turn???

Old     (rrw71)      Join Date: Feb 2010       07-23-2010, 1:24 PM Reply   
I've been weighting a prostar190 w/o speed control with 700# and 2 (550's) for a year with very mixed results. A turn has helped and hindered at different times. I've found the tilt to be the most important, but the hulls are entirely different. Keep us updated. I think the TWB is the best bang for the buck and on my possible future boats. Keep us updated!


PS: I wonder how it would surf with the addition of a tab???

http://www.lencomarine.com/trimtabs.html

http://www.bennetttrimtabs.com/hydraulicvselectric.php

It would get rid of the rooster tail 4 sure...
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       07-23-2010, 1:35 PM Reply   
@DBC that wake looks good enough at least, much better picture. I can see from your picture that your back foot is too far to your heels. Needs to be towards wake, center your feet over the board so your weight is placed on center of board naturally. You shouldn't have to turn in to be in sweetspot. Also, watch that video about bending your knees, like you are doing, and putting your hands out to the wave to help you.
Old    david pierce (desotodave)      Join Date: Mar 2009       07-23-2010, 1:35 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfe View Post
Since I was riding, I don't know if we were turning or not. As you can see, I was just trying to stay up!

A left turn would actually make the wave look a bit smaller and more washy, right? Perhaps that's what's going on here.

Check out this pic from last year. Same boat (MB TWB), same rider (me), same ballast (900lbs), same speed (10.5mph). But much less people in the boat (2 adults and 4 kids) and no lead (not that 150lbs. is very much). To me this pic looks bigger and cleaner. Probably becuase of no left turn???

DBC

Take a look at your picture.

1. The front of the board is quite a ways out of the water, you need more body weight forward.
2. Your body is leaning WAY back, look at the bend in your back leg. Simply shift your hips forward.
3. Look at the direction of your board, if you let go you will head away from the boat and lose the wake. Your board should be going more along the wake, with the tip of the board headed to the back of the boat.
Old    david pierce (desotodave)      Join Date: Mar 2009       07-23-2010, 1:46 PM Reply   
Look at this graphic, and attached picture. Also take a look at your back foot, all the weight is on your heel, you need to move it across the board and get your weight on your toes. Once you get the feel of surfing you will be surprised at how easy it is to surf without a huge wave. I teach people to surf on a very small wave, and only crank it up once they have it figured out.
Old    david pierce (desotodave)      Join Date: Mar 2009       07-23-2010, 1:48 PM Reply   
Sorry they did not attach the first time.
Attached Images
  
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       07-23-2010, 7:06 PM Reply   
Wow... such great coaching. I really didn't expect this. I should have ventured over to the surf forum a long time ago. Folks aren't always so nice over on the boat forum.

I will be in Shasta with 20 people on a house boat for the next week. We are leaving tomorrow. So I should have lots of chances to practice!

Here's my plan:

1) A bit more speed. I'm going to inch up into the 11's to see if that backs me up off the platform.

2) Center my weight better with feet in the middle of the board.

3) Reach toward the wave with my arms/hands. I suspect this is designed to help me balance my weight in the middle and keep me from falling out of the sweet spot.

4) Point the board toward the boat, not the shore.

I hope to have pictures upon my return... and a full report!

Thanks again. I'm really pumped about surfing!
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       07-23-2010, 7:16 PM Reply   
Definitely post some pics, you are going to be in our backyard. Good luck!
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-02-2010, 11:53 PM Reply   
Okay... fresh off a week at Shasta. Here are a few pics. These were all taken in sequence (just seconds apart). I tried hard to practice what I learned above.

Speed was 11.5mph. This is 1 mph faster than before, and it made a difference. I was able to surf a bit further back.

I'll let you guys judge on how my board was pointed and whether or not I looked balanced.







Old    E (22vdrive)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-03-2010, 7:24 AM Reply   
Nice improvements! Your wake looks great and so does your surfing!
Old    Drew Richardson (surffresh)      Join Date: Jun 2010       08-03-2010, 9:34 AM Reply   
it looks like you and your wave are well on your way, I know your stock is 900lbs, how much more weight do you have here, those boats are very deep so you should be able to load it up, but keep it safe.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-03-2010, 10:28 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by surffresh View Post
it looks like you and your wave are well on your way, I know your stock is 900lbs, how much more weight do you have here, those boats are very deep so you should be able to load it up, but keep it safe.
In that picture I had 4 adults (incl. driver) and 6 kids in the boat. So that's probably about 1,100 lbs. of people in there + 900 lbs. of ballast = 2,000 lbs.

I don't have any bags... yet!
Old    Drew Richardson (surffresh)      Join Date: Jun 2010       08-03-2010, 10:36 AM Reply   
it will only get better
Old    Mario (mdaijogo)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-03-2010, 10:57 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixfe View Post

This wake looks clean and refreshing. Nice job.

Mario-
Old    Mitch (wakemitch)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-25-2010, 3:28 PM Reply   
I think ive got it figured out.

Port Ballast Filled (900lbs)
1100 Fly High Sac in locker
500lbs people on side seat
~115lbs in bow
10.6mph

we were all really stoked on the wake.
Attached Images
 
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       08-25-2010, 3:47 PM Reply   
Looks pretty clean, well, for the delta. ;-)
Old    Mitch (wakemitch)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-25-2010, 4:09 PM Reply   
There is still spray on the lip but its not coming over so its not too bad.

Robert, it was a good wake for 11-12ft of depth
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       08-25-2010, 4:29 PM Reply   
That's great Mitch. It's always deep for me, so I don't have much experience with that.
Old    iWakesurf            08-25-2010, 4:44 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakemitch View Post
Robert, it was a good wake for 11-12ft of depth
Why surf in shallow Vics when the much deeper Old River is just a few minutes away and is 20+ feet deep?

An added bonus is that you're not throwing monster rollers all the way down Vics and bumming out the folks that are skiing or wakeboarding.
Old    Mitch (wakemitch)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-25-2010, 5:11 PM Reply   
Bob, Old river was blown. We throw less rollers than almost any other boat at vics. We know how to drive. We stay closer to the left side so the wakes die in the toolies, and we dont power turn so we dont send any down the way. The barefooter in and old ski boat was sending more rollers that day trying to get up becuase he would power turn every 10 seconds.
Old    iWakesurf            08-25-2010, 5:24 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakemitch View Post
Bob, Old river was blown. We throw less rollers than almost any other boat at vics. We know how to drive. We stay closer to the left side so the wakes die in the toolies, and we dont power turn so we dont send any down the way. The barefooter in and old ski boat was sending more rollers that day trying to get up becuase he would power turn every 10 seconds.
Got it.

I'm more concerned about the massive rollers/swells that I throw that run parallel to the stern, and thus straight down the waterways.
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-26-2010, 4:01 AM Reply   
Just had my first night out on a 2010 F21. We surfed with factory ballast and 3 people on the surf side. I surfed on the starboard side, which was really nice, with a decent pocket that was about 10' long. Then we switched to port and the wave was very similar, which is very strange. On my Team widebody the port wake has prop wash with factory ballast, but last night the F21 didn't. I surfed switch and backside without the rope no problem and the "regular" rider loved it too. Can't wait to add a little weight and get it huge!

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