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Old    E (22vdrive)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-16-2010, 5:48 AM Reply   
Which boat should I get? I'm in love with the MB F21 and the Axis A22. I sold my supra to purchase one of these boats. To me the A22 is so pleasing to the eye right off the bat. I would only get the vandal edition. Price difference would be roughly 10,000. I have an axis dealer here in Houston that would take care of any issues if I were to have any. The F21 on the other hand, I would bev left stranded, with no local dealer! I love their ballet system and I feel that I would get the most bang for my buck! It would come down to which one has a better wake. I'm in the process of getting behind an axis a22 some time this week and I have no clue on how to get behind the f21 here in Texas. I have a dealer in Dallas but he has no boat for me to demo! I would drive to demo one as I want to make my decision this week that way I can get into a new boat asap. What do you think is the better boat?
Old    Bu Coo (brett564)      Join Date: Jul 2006       08-16-2010, 6:10 AM Reply   
If I read your post correctly you said you do not have a local MB dealer. That is huge. All boats break, and you will be in and out of the dealer's garage no matter what boat you get. The Axis is for sure the better boat, and I think $10,000 more for what I assume are simillarly outfitted boats, is a good deal, especially taking into consideration the local dealer.
Old    Ian Brown (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       08-16-2010, 6:32 AM Reply   
I would call Mike Brendel and speak to him about your concerns regarding warranty work on the MB. Which boat is more expensive?

I disagree completely with Bu Coo's statement that Axis is for sure a better boat than MB. I'm not saying it's worse but the MB is a VERY well built boat. I know someone in Spring, TX that has an F21.
Old    CORY MITCHELL (stang_killa_ss)      Join Date: Jan 2010       08-16-2010, 6:33 AM Reply   
no contest axis
Old    Ian Brown (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       08-16-2010, 6:35 AM Reply   
Cory, have you ridden an F21 or TWB?
Old    Charles S (Chuch)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-16-2010, 6:40 AM Reply   
Gosh man....this is a great thread. I am also considering those two exact boats for my next purchase. I am a little further away from that point than you are, but I have very similar circumstances. We have an axis dealer 15 minutes away, but the next closest MB dealer is in GA. (we are in VA). I am actually leaning towards the MB, but have ridden behind neither boat yet. Surf wake is also a major factor for my family too.

Can anyone on here with some knowledge on the subject speak to why MB isn't growing their dealer network to support the percieved hype and marketing that is now surrounding the boats? It seems like its really holding them back....and it sucks. I really wish one of my local dealers could pick them up somehow.
Old    E (22vdrive)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-16-2010, 6:56 AM Reply   
I hear that if I do purchase the axis boat I'd have to go and scoop it up in VA its a red vandal and my dealer has already contacted them to make sure it would be alright. It is a salt water addition and is selling for 53,000. The mb is 44,500 and I would have to go and scoop that one up in Los Angeles. Either way I'd have to make a rode trip I just want the better boat wake wise. The mb might have more ballast weight stock but if I don't like the wake then there is no point in me getting it. I think trying them out is crucial and will be what I base my final decision on.
Old    Charles S (Chuch)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-16-2010, 7:03 AM Reply   
E, let me know if its in Virginia Beach man. I'd be glad to go check it out for you or help in any way.
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-16-2010, 7:49 AM Reply   
This thread makes my stomach turn. The Axis is not remotely in the same realm as the MB. I have ridden behind both and researched both. Most people compare the F21 to the VLX or VTX and still buy the F21. Comparing it to the Axis is a joke, not to mention that I thought you meant the MB was 10K more. Dude buy a plane ticket and come to VA, I will give you a ride in an F21 and an Axis, side by side on the same day.
Old    E (22vdrive)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-16-2010, 8:08 AM Reply   
I will take you up on your offer. So your saying the MB is the way to go or axis is. I am about to demo a centurion avalanche just because I heard great things about them. I have a buddy up there in Wilmington Virginia so I'd be down for a trip out.
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-16-2010, 8:09 AM Reply   
Let me know, I will set it up!

Chuch, you should come too.

I think it will be a no contest for the F21, but lets let you guys decide.

Last edited by alans; 08-16-2010 at 8:13 AM.
Old    E (22vdrive)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-16-2010, 8:12 AM Reply   
So you prefer the MB then?
Old    Charles S (Chuch)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-16-2010, 8:12 AM Reply   
Alan, I love you man! LOL I wish you'd bring that thing down here to VB and take me for a ride! My stoke-o-meter on the F21 is insane, but not having a dealer to support the boat seems pretty critical to me right now for me to move forward in the future.

Hull for Hull though, I was under the impression that the Axis was just the old VLX hull right? (with a couple of slight mods?)
Old    Charles S (Chuch)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-16-2010, 8:13 AM Reply   
Yeah, Alan is the MB guru for sure. IMO he knows them better than nearly anyone on this site.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       08-16-2010, 8:16 AM Reply   
I've had not ridden behind a F21. I have ridden behind and A22 and an A20. I have owned 3 SANTE 230's, an '07 VLX, and an '02 Xstar. I was thoroughly impressed with the Axis wakes. No, the A22 does not have all of the bells and whistles that my 230 has, but it's a nice, big boat with a killer wake out of the box.

I suggest you test both and buy the one you like best, but also factoring in things like resale value and dealer availability/relations. I can't comment on the MB because I haven't been in one. However, I have a local Axis dealer near Chattanooga and the closed MB dealer to me is in Knoxville. From those that I know who are selling Axis boats, the resale value has been good and the boats are dependable.
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-16-2010, 8:25 AM Reply   
I think my first post was a little too strong. For the record, I do like the Axis, it is a very nice boat and it obviously is a very popular boat for good reason. I am willing to bet that there is not a single Axis owner out there that test drove an F21 or TWB before buying. Not saying it is their fault or that they bought the wrong boat, just saying...... Yes, MB's dealer network is pretty much non existent everywhere but the West Coast. Axis does not have that problem as they had every Malubu dealer in pocket, looking for a lower priced boat for this economy.
Old     (wakejunki3)      Join Date: Aug 2010       08-16-2010, 8:44 AM Reply   
I've had the priviledge of touring both manufcaturing plants. Axis makes a good "entry" level wake boarding boat and they will continuously learn from their mistakes. Mike Brendel has been building boats for a really long time so he's had this tenure of making mistakes and getting better from them. The build quality of an MB is hands down better than Axis...I've seen this first hand.

Posting this on wakeworld, your going to have to filter out 95% of the crap. Please do yourself a favor and ride in and behind all your choices....only then can you make your decision.

-P
Old    Hate2party (slipknot)      Join Date: Aug 2001       08-16-2010, 9:06 AM Reply   
E, pm sent, Charles you need to catch a ride with Alan.
Old    Charles S (Chuch)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-16-2010, 9:13 AM Reply   
If I wasn't headed to the ortho tomorrow for my knee, I think I'd be scheduling a ride right now. Let me get passed seeing whats up with my crippled leg and I might be taking him up shortly for a day trip.
Old    DBC (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-16-2010, 9:18 AM Reply   
$10K more for an Axis...? Did I read that right?

Forget water tests... think about where you are going to spend most of the day: Inside the boat! I have a feeling if you just sit in each of the boats back-to-back you'll make your decision in about 2 seconds. There really is no comparison.

I went to the boat show 18 months ago as a shopper looking for my first boat. I really wanted to like the Axis because it was new, under $50K, and made by Malibu. I had never even heard of the new MB's and they were nowhere on my list. I was either going to get an Axis, a Moomba, or a used Malibu. I was so axious to see this new Axis it was the first booth I went to. I spent a lot of time that day crawling around inside the A22. Before I even saw the MB, I walked away from the Axis very dissappointed; everything about the interior just felt so cheap to me. I really wanted to like that boat. At $45K it still felt like a rip off to me.

Then I wandered over to look at Moombas, but got distracted by a couple of MB's I'd never seen before... the B52V Team Wide Body (picture an F21 w/ traditional bow). So I spent 30 minutes crawling around inside that boat. I was sold. Didn't even need to do a water test (I eventually did). The inside of the boat sold it for me. And the MB was even a bit more expensive back then. Didn't matter. It felt like it was easily worth $10K more.

Fast forward 18 months and you're telling me an Axis is $10K more? What happened to their price-point strategy? Did something change inside the boat? Thicker vinyl, plusher carpet, LCD screen, solid topdeck with real seat risers? Or did they just jack up the price??

I agree with Ian... give Mike B. a call and tell him your concerns. I'm sure there's an easy solution.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       08-16-2010, 9:23 AM Reply   
Well, to suggest that Axis, as a subsidiary of Malibu, does not have wealth of prior engineering experience to build upon and utilize is not exactly accurate. When I think of companies building on mistakes, I think of drastic changes regarding integral aspects of a product vis-a-vis engines, entire electrical systems, hulls, towers, etc. I didn't see any big changes like that in the 2011 A22. I'm just saying I think the Axis products certainly seem to be performing well the way they are.

Again, I know nothing about MB. I'm sure they make a heck of a boat, and I'm not trying to take anything away from them. Demo both before you make a sizeable financial commitment.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       08-16-2010, 9:25 AM Reply   
BTW, are both boats new 2011 models?
Old    James Labanowski (angelo_ski)      Join Date: Nov 2006       08-16-2010, 10:24 AM Reply   
E,
With regard to your question. I have ridden a buddies MB F21 and own a VLX. Very similar wakes and both are great in my opinion.
Old    Drew Richardson (surffresh)      Join Date: Jun 2010       08-16-2010, 10:25 AM Reply   
@DBC, I believe that the Randall Vandall package is about 10k more than base so I am with you on the Axis @ 55k, but I have no idea how the MB came down to 44,500, something must be not just right, maybe it's a 2009 MB with some hours. Please set us straight 22vdrive !
Old    Mario (mdaijogo)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-16-2010, 10:25 AM Reply   
Here is my post regarding the F21 when I bought mine earlier this year. There are several threads on WW about the F21 vs. Sanger/Moomba/Supreme....etc.

This "re-quoting" of my post is just something to add to the mix.

Quote:
I should be picking up my 2009 F21 Tomcat on Thursday. It is amazing how many opinions and statements are made towards the MB name.

If I let all the opinions set in, I'd feel like I am taking a chance with the F21. However, I have a friend who has an older B52 with the Triple up ballast and he loves his MB boat. After doing my demo ride on Sunday, I really didn't want to test drive other boats. There were 3 other boats that were in contention with the F21. A dealer that gave me the run around and storage put the those 3 out of the equation. I can't forget about bang for buck here.

Here is my post on Wakeworld just so that anyone who is thinking about an F21 can have more data points.

"Here is my personal take on the 2009 F21 Tomcat demo ride we did yesterday.

Location: Big Break, Oakley CA. (Delta)

We arrived at the dealership (not sure if I can name dealerships in this forums) with our equipment and we were ready to load the boat up. I wish I had taken pictures of this, but the port rear locker took the following items:

1 Kneeboard
2 Wakeboards with bindings (one high wrap binding pair)
1 Coleman cooler - I think it is a 18qt cooler. I would have to check.

The starboard locker:
1 wakeboard (high wrap binding)
9 neoprene lifevests
2 wakeboard rope/handles

I put the 4th wakeboard in the walk through area since I did not want to reorganize the lockers. Our bag of towels and backpack of dry clothes disappeared behind the observer's chair.

On the way to Big Break and followed the boat and was looking to see if the tower rattled going down the freeway. The boat and tower moved as one unit. From my point of view, it was solid.

Once we got to Big Break the boat was launched and we were on our way. The water temp was a chilly 60 degress and there was chop all around us. This boat rode over the chop effortless. As soon as we were out of the marina we stopped and I loaded up the scissor racks with 3 boards to see if the tower squeaked or rattled and if my vision was blocked. The tower didn't make any noise and my vision was not obstructed at all. After removing the boards from the lockers, those things were cavernous. The storage on this boat is simply phenomenal.

As we drove the boat, it handled very nicely without ballast. We filled the ballast (very easy and quick ~ 1 min) and drove around as well and it still handled well. It took some effort to get on plane with full ballast, but the boat did it with some more throttle. The boat was filled with 3 adults and 2 children and 1800lbs of ballast.

Setting up the boat for surfing was just as easy. Opened a gate, closed another, drove for about a minute on plane, and the boat was ready.

We played with the cruise control. It was easy to setup. Press On, set speed, apply throttle until beep, and drive. I do not think it can save multiple profiles, but that isn't going to be a negative factor for me in my boat buying.

I played with the bimini top while the boat was at the dealership. That thing is massive. I can see it being a nice thing to have during our warm summer months in the delta.

A big thing to point out is that this beastly sized boat fits in my garage. My garage opening is 82 15/16". Tract homes are not known for adhering to tolerances. The trick to get the boat in the garage was to lay the tower inside the engine bay with the power hatch up. Then set the hatch back down on the tower.

Overall, the F21 impressed me quite a bit. Granted I own an 18' runabout now that is in a different class than the F21.

I have not driven the V215, but with those hard tanks where they are, I am not so sure that storage in the V215 would compare to the F21.

I'll have some videos up tonight if possible from our demo ride."

Here are links to the videos.

Here are the videos from my F21 demo ride:

1800 lbs of ballast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0Fq38hCbk8

Standard foot - wake surf (if that is what it is called)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdM9W37r-Zg

Goofy foot -wake surf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXjkJywx-co

Bow rise - camera is being held at the lip of the windshield.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I1pcgc-m14

F21 Walk around:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8mZEtHPCWU

I hope to have a maiden voyage this weekend!
I know this was lengthy but I wanted to share. Another thing to consider about the Axis/Malibu is the hard tank setup. At the boat show this year in Sacramento, the hard tanks are located in the port and starboard lockers. I was told by the Malibu rep that caution should be taken if putting any "heavy" items on the tanks. If the tanks were damaged due to placing something heavy on them, warranty may not cover it. Now granted this came from a sales rep on the floor.

Get in both boats and bring your standard load out and test drive the boats. In this case, do it with the A22 maybe if you are lucky you can get into a test drive with an F21.

Mario-
Old    Jason Buffalow (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-16-2010, 10:41 AM Reply   
Hey guys, We have been re-buidling our MB Dealer network this past year last year. We lost many dealers in the last two years due to the economy. Than the dealers that are left now have 3/4 boat lines. Malibu and Mastercraft generally have an agreement with their dealers that they can't sell other wakeboard boats that are in direct competition. We are trying to slowly gain new dealers, but be selective in doing so. We want dealers that are going to be around a long time. There are very few healthy dealers left now.

Every time I bring someone new on my boat (F21) - the comments are always the same - "WOW" "Why do people spend $60-80K on a boat with far less features and not as good wake".

As far as the comparison - Ride them! Most people that actually take a test drive of one our boats compared to most other brands, our boats sell themselves. Mike Brendel's passion and persistence to quality is unmatched and unheard of in the boat business. He is always at the factory to speak with you if need be.

We do not make a habit of our boat is better than brand X discussions. We like people to get in our boats and let them try it out.
Old    Jason Buffalow (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-16-2010, 10:43 AM Reply   
If it is good enough for Herb O'Brien and Radar Lake , is it good enough for you?
Attached Images
 
Old    Jason Buffalow (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-16-2010, 10:46 AM Reply   
If it is good enough for the 2009 World Champion and the guy than many says is the best overall wakeboarder - Aaron Rathy, than is it good enough for you?
Attached Images
 
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-16-2010, 10:49 AM Reply   
Buffalow, I want to see your ride!
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       08-16-2010, 10:56 AM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by buffalow View Post
If it is good enough for Herb O'Brien and Radar Lake , is it good enough for you?
I got to sit in this boat up at Radar last week. It was a very nice boat and really roomy for only being 21 feet. I didn't get to ride behind it at all but from my first impression I would definitely consider it.
Old    Jason Buffalow (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-16-2010, 11:11 AM Reply   
We need to Alan! I have not been riding enough to get my back of tricks back, but now that I am back to 2-3 times per week, they'll come back quickly. I can't tell you how much I love that wake, even after a few years of being on a Tomcat. The thing just launches you.

I want to see Herb ride!
Old     (yellj)      Join Date: Aug 2010       08-16-2010, 11:30 AM Reply   
In addition to riding them and sitting in them just do a side by side grading from engines (PCM vs Indmar) vinyl quality, ballast system, storage, gel coat finish etc... I think if you do it objectively you will see even more than a 10k difference, better boat for less money. There is nothing cheap on the MB, it is billet , great gel coat or top of the line subcompents (gauges, tower, Zero Off) and is all standard. As for the dealer, I agree, it is a PITA when things for wrong and you end up dealing with people on the phone instead of in person. Yes boats break, but there are qualified boat mechanics out there, as well as PCM qualified shops. For the time I have spent on my boat "issues" it was well worth 10 grand. Then everyone makes the assumption just because you do have a dealer that you can drop the boat off they fix and pick it up the next day. You will probably have to go through similar diagnostics, trying to figure out what the problem is before you can expplain it to the dealer. If it is obvious, like my Perfect Pass or Zero off isn't working, guess who they are going to get in touch with. I have had 2 issues, neither has cost me any boating time, have been able to work through them between MB, the supplier and in one case I called in a mechanic to help install a engine mount that needed a longer trunion, was concerned I might muck up the alignment.
Old    Hate2party (slipknot)      Join Date: Aug 2001       08-16-2010, 11:36 AM Reply   
If you ride both boats I can almost guarantee you will pick the MB. But again I may be a little biased. Every person who I have pulled can say the loved it. Who wants a pull?

You will not have many warranty issues with an MB. I am sure Mike will work it out with you if end up buying one.

The wake is way better on the (stock) MB by far, add more and it is NUTTY! The fit and finish on the boat is better than the AXIS as well.

I was at the MB factory two weeks ago for my tour. 2011 is going to be another great year for MB is all I can say. There are some things in the works once again.

I did not demo the F21 before I bought it. I spoke to numerous people who had been in and behind the boat. Best boat purchase to date!
Old    Ed (elc)      Join Date: Jan 2008       08-16-2010, 11:40 AM Reply   
These threads make me laugh every time I read them... Everyone is always so stoked about their boat brand! I own an A22 and my dealer is also an MB dealer. So before I bought the A22, I crawled through an F21 (the interior is very nice). After I test drove the Axis I felt that this boat met my needs and I did not need to pay more get into something else. It seems odd that a 2011 Axis is $10k more then a 2011 F21. That was not the case 6 months ago. 45 or 46k for 2011 F21 is a smoken deal!!!
Old    Jason Buffalow (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-16-2010, 12:14 PM Reply   
Hey Ed, That is why we choose to not get in the argument. Mb sells pretty much the same amount of boats year after year. Since that number is much smaller than the big brands, we can make sure our quality is top notch. It also allows us to change little things any time we want if we think it makes the boat better. That is not a slant towards the others, we just stand behind our products.

Also seems like MB buyers tend to stay MB buyers. I can't tell you how many times i have heard that this is their 3,4,5th MB over a bunch of years. We are not here to bash the other brands, but just to give us a shot to try one out. You can see from the MB owners here, we all want you to get in one and try it out. The more people that sit in one, the more converts we have. If nothing else, when people spend time in it, they no longer think of it as a second tier boat (especially for the money).

If you are seriously looking at a MB and have any concerns, Call Mike at the factory. He is a hands on guy that lives/breaths boats. He has been in the business forever and wants MB owners to know he is behind them.
Old    Hate2party (slipknot)      Join Date: Aug 2001       08-16-2010, 1:03 PM Reply   
E got your message I will call you later today to discuss the boat with you.
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       08-16-2010, 1:08 PM Reply   
"If I read your post correctly you said you do not have a local MB dealer. That is huge. All boats break, and you will be in and out of the dealer's garage no matter what boat you get."

I would get the Axis. As stated before, having a local dealer is everything. I was a Malibu guy back in the day. My Malibu dealer had a horrible reputation, so I bought Mastercraft despite my love for Malibu's. Having someone local that values your business is big.

I've driven and ridden behind the A22. Heavily weighted it still drives awsome, and the wake has the perfect shape.
Old    Charles S (Chuch)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-16-2010, 1:25 PM Reply   
Its definitely a major decision piece for me no matter how much I end up falling for any one boat. Most of our dealerships also sell bay boats, bass boats, and the like to survive since thats the majority of business here. I can't imagine showing up to one of our local Malibu or MC dealers and asking them to work on my MB after I've spent years getting to know them at shows and on the local scene. I don't even want to think about how long it will take them to get to the boat into their shop. There's a lot to be said about having that "home" dealership who knows the boats inside and out, knows the issues involved, has a relationship (strong one) with the manufacturer and will make you a priority. I own a centurion now, and my dealer who was dropped by them still treats me like gold luckily. The guy answers my cell calls while I'm on the water if need be. It could be the greatest boat in the world, and Mike seems like a stand up guy....but I am thinking about real world issues. Hopefully MB is spending some dollars to find prospective dealers out there. I am sure I am not the only person out there in this position.
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-16-2010, 1:38 PM Reply   
Chuch, as you know there are a lot of MB's in the Mid-Atlantic (about 55), relative to the number of dealers (0). As far as I know, there are not a whole lot of complaints about obtaining service or warranty work. There is a reason for that. The last I heard, MB pays $10/hr labor rate for warranty work. Money talks. The flip side to not having a dedicated dealer is that if you don't like them you can go elsewhere and still get warranty work covered. Just some perspective. Doug, Brad, Danny, Doug, Art, Rob and Wayne don't mind working on MB's at all.
Old    Charles S (Chuch)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-16-2010, 1:46 PM Reply   
E, sorry for the hijack man. Please keep us informed how your experience goes with testing and purchasing. So far, everyone that I have talked to that has ridden either boat has loved it. You probably can't go wrong.

Alan, thanks for the perspective. You know I am a fan! lol
Old    Peter T (deltawake)      Join Date: Sep 2004       08-16-2010, 1:47 PM Reply   
The Axis A22 is an awesome boat. It is well put together and the wake is first class. You won't be disappointed. We currently have an A22 and I can tell you that the boat drives like a dream. We ride the Delta and I can confidently throw the boat into a tight turn knowing that it will track perfectly, even fully loaded. The value of having a big company behind your boat with a good local dealer cannot be overlooked. Go with the Axis! You won't be disappointed.
Old    AtTheLake (bmartin)      Join Date: Jan 2007       08-16-2010, 2:25 PM Reply   
I'm another one that can't beleive the MB is $10K less. Almost a no brainer IMO if you can get warranty work done and I wouldn't worry too much that it is not an 'MB' mechanic. Any knowledgable inboard boat mechanic will be able to fix 90+% of problems without calling the manufacture anyway.

Alan - Is that a typo? I don't think $10/hr will get much talking or working done??? More like $110/hr???
Old     (yellj)      Join Date: Aug 2010       08-16-2010, 2:38 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltawake View Post
The Axis A22 is an awesome boat. It is well put together and the wake is first class. You won't be disappointed. We currently have an A22 and I can tell you that the boat drives like a dream. We ride the Delta and I can confidently throw the boat into a tight turn knowing that it will track perfectly, even fully loaded. The value of having a big company behind your boat with a good local dealer cannot be overlooked. Go with the Axis! You won't be disappointed.
Not to get in a p contest, would be helpful to contrast what specifically you preferred over other boats you looked at, otherwise it gets into a Ford vs Chevy debate, pure opinion, little substance. Not knocking Axis or Malibu, just curious what the attraction is. I agree a dealer would be a plus, but shouldn't be a deal breaker. As for a big company behind a boat. that is a neutral, having GM behind a car wouldn't make me sleep better, MB is a small company that has very little debt, can focus on building it's 300 or so boats each year.
Old    Mario (mdaijogo)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-16-2010, 2:41 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by yellj View Post
Not to get in a p contest, would be helpful to contrast what specifically you preferred over other boats you looked at, otherwise it gets into a Ford vs Chevy debate, pure opinion, little substance. Not knocking Axis or Malibu, just curious what the attraction is. I agree a dealer would be a plus, but shouldn't be a deal breaker. As for a big company behind a boat. that is a neutral, having GM behind a car wouldn't make me sleep better, MB is a small company that has very little debt, can focus on building it's 300 or so boats each year.
Just to reiterate, my post about my F21 was just my experience. In no way am I bashing Malibu or Axis. For my needs, the F21 fit the bill. (literally).

Mario-
Old    E (22vdrive)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-16-2010, 2:42 PM Reply   
I'm testing the a22 tomorrow morning. I appreciate all the feed back I've been getting. I am still leaning towards mb because of all the great review plus all of the standard features the boat comes with and let's not forget the price factor. The reason the a22 would cost me more is because I'd want all the options in it aka the vandal edition. The boats video wowed me just as did the f21 video. I'll let yal know how it goes tomorrow and hopefully I'll be driving out to pick my boat up this weekend.
Old    Jason Buffalow (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-16-2010, 3:09 PM Reply   
E,

Do you need a test drive of the F21? not sure how as I do not work directly for MB, but I am sure I can figure something to get you on a Tomcat for a ride. Or do you have any plans to travel anywhere soon that we might be able to set that up? Of course if you wanted to come up to the factory we could set up a tour, meet with Mike and Dustin, and do some riding on any of the boats.

As you compare the two, make a pros/cons list including all of the included features versus features you pay extra for. Might help make the decision.
Old    Charles S (Chuch)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-16-2010, 3:39 PM Reply   
Jason, where is the factory?
Old    E (22vdrive)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-16-2010, 3:47 PM Reply   
Ya I need help finding an F-21 to ride behind I'm willin to travel a reasonable distance. Getting to see one in person and see how it performs I huge for me. Let mr know what you can do! I'd appreciate all the help I can get. I'm in Houston, tx.
Old    Jason Buffalow (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-16-2010, 4:00 PM Reply   
The factory is in Atwater - Between Fresno and modesto

280 Air Park Road
Atwater, CA 95301

Telephone:
209.357.4153

http://mbsports.net/contact.asp


E - Let me get to work.
Old    02RedWS6TA (02redws6ta)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-16-2010, 4:25 PM Reply   
Before I bought my VLX I went and looked at the F21 and wasn't really impressed. It just looked unfinished to me. The quality of the interior just wasn't what it was on the Malibu or Mastercraft I had just been on so I just kept on going, didn't even take it out.

That said I felt the same way about the Axis I saw. The seats were also really low to the floor, I'm only 6'2" but it just wasn't comfortable to sit in it. I guess if I was in your position I would choose the Axis as the dealer being close would make my mind up. If the dealers were the same distance I would pick the F21 over the A22 though, I think it was the better boat fit and finish wise and you never see anyone on here dissappointed with the wakes of it.

I've never ridden behind either so take this all with a grain of salt.
Old     (yellj)      Join Date: Aug 2010       08-16-2010, 5:37 PM Reply   
Quality and style are 2 different criteria, I don't get the unfinished perception, vinyl work is as good as an of the big 3, arguably better, same weight vinyl, and the patterns and stiching are done right, IMHO were better. As for unfinished, if you are looking for a lot of bling and flash, not MB's style, but the quality of materials isn't passed by any of the other 3, in fact I have seen more plastic on Mastercrafts, there is no plastic grill covers, cup holders, switch plates, glove box lids etc... all billet on MBs
Old    02RedWS6TA (02redws6ta)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-16-2010, 5:44 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by yellj View Post
Quality and style are 2 different criteria, I don't get the unfinished perception, vinyl work is as good as an of the big 3, arguably better, same weight vinyl, and the patterns and stiching are done right, IMHO were better. As for unfinished, if you are looking for a lot of bling and flash, not MB's style, but the quality of materials isn't passed by any of the other 3, in fact I have seen more plastic on Mastercrafts, there is no plastic grill covers, cup holders, switch plates, glove box lids etc... all billet on MBs
It just looked like things weren't finished. There was a lot of unfinished fiberglass I could see looking around the boat. A lot of spots where the upholstry was wrapped around you could see the edge of it instead of it being tucked away out of sight. Just little things like that. It was a year ago so I don't remember specifics of where/what exactly it was where it was unfinished. I just remember walking away dissappointed after reading how great they were.

Again, I believe it to be a better quality boat than the Axis but EVERY boat will end up in the shop so the close dealer would be a closer for me.
Old     (yellj)      Join Date: Aug 2010       08-16-2010, 5:55 PM Reply   
I believe you saw those things, I just haven't seen them on any of the MB's I have been on, the only unfinished exposed fiberglass is on the underside of the of the gunwales, engine compartment, under the dash and the under side of where the glove box is, everything else is finished with gel coat or covered with carpet (under the seats) as for the upholstery not seen anything like you are describing, best picture I have of interior.
Old    02RedWS6TA (02redws6ta)      Join Date: Aug 2008       08-16-2010, 6:02 PM Reply   
Quote:
Originally Posted by yellj View Post
I believe you saw those things, I just haven't seen them on any of the MB's I have been on, the only unfinished exposed fiberglass is on the underside of the of the gunwales, engine compartment, under the dash and the under side of where the glove box is, everything else is finished with gel coat or covered with carpet (under the seats) as for the upholstery not seen anything like you are describing, best picture I have of interior.
You're boat looks nice and I'm sure they are nice boats but I only got to see the one. I was sad when I left after hearing how great they were.

Nice speakers, I rock the same ones. At least we have that in common
Old     (yellj)      Join Date: Aug 2010       08-16-2010, 6:08 PM Reply   
I'll drink to that and Exiles

Last edited by yellj; 08-16-2010 at 6:11 PM.
Old    Adam Fullmer (adam4x4)      Join Date: Jan 2009       08-16-2010, 6:09 PM Reply   
When i started looking I went to the L.A. boat show. the A22 was right next to the F21. I went over both very well. i found the front seat broken, and lots of wear and tear on the in side of the A22. The MB F21 showed none. The fit and finish to me was by far better on the MB. that ruined me on the A22. I also look at the Sanger 215. I did not like it at all, no storage, and hated the ride. As for service, it great. ( I even have Mikes B. cell in my phone). He always wants to help. I love my F21 it is the right boat for me.
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Old    E (22vdrive)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-16-2010, 6:35 PM Reply   
I think I'm going with the F21 I just feel its the best bang for my buck and I love the way it looks. I would want to add the lit up ramp lights on the trailer though, I thought that was pretty awesome feature of the Vandal A22. We'll see I'm going to look at the A22 just want time to speed up I don't like being without a boat, it sucks really wanted one this past weekend it was perfect weather here. Oh and from the pics I've seen the boat looks finished it's just a bit plain and simple but I like that I plan on modifying it any ways to make it more unique.
Old    Darren (h2oaddiction)      Join Date: Aug 2007       08-16-2010, 9:43 PM Reply   
Not sure if someone mentioned this about having a local dealer. The major mechanical warranties can be done at any PCM certified shop. Our local Nautique dealer has been great for servicing our MB. Dustin at MB took car of a few minor issues we had since we have no dealer nearby. We are on our third MB an we have only had one mechanical issue that the PCM shop was able to take care of. Ride both and then decide.
Old    Drew Richardson (surffresh)      Join Date: Jun 2010       08-17-2010, 4:27 AM Reply   
This past Feb. I met up with a guy from Arkansas that was here in FL with some Canadian kids training on a private lake. He had 2 F21 Tomcats with PCM 409's. This place they had rented was out in BFE about 20 min from Ocala. One of the boat's engine was not idleing right, a regional PCM guy drove out there(over 2 hours from his house) to meet us, hooked up his lap top to the engine, talked back and forth with the factory and diagnosed that an injector was missfiring. They took the boat to a Nautique dealer and had it fixed. I was very impressed with PCM and the boats for that matter.
Old    E (22vdrive)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-17-2010, 5:13 AM Reply   
I know that guy Drew he is really nice and has some very nice boats! I've talked to him a couple of times. He has the 410 hp pcm's in his boats.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       08-17-2010, 5:49 AM Reply   
I'm sorry if I missed something, but are we talking about two 2011 boats here? I thought loaded MB's were on par pricewise with the other big 3. What gives?
Old    E (22vdrive)      Join Date: Apr 2010       08-17-2010, 6:00 AM Reply   
It's a 2010 with very few hours we'll say newish! and loaded they are in the upper 50's, that's with the 410 hp pcm engine
Old    Jim Aikins (HSE)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-17-2010, 6:17 AM Reply   
I have driven and ridden both, and if I was in the market for a new boat, the MB would be on the top of my list. I feel the MB has a better wake with stock ballast than the Axis. The Axis has a great wake, just need to add extra sacks etc to equal the stock MB size wake. The acceleration to get on plane on the MB was very impressive compared to a weighted Axis. If you deal with MB direct, the configuration you can have done is pretty much limited to your imagination. Either boat will do well and we all have opinions so it's best to demo both and make your decision. From all the above posts, you won't go wrong with either boat.
Old    Ian Brown (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       08-17-2010, 6:17 AM Reply   
well, might as well post some of mine too all pics are stock ballast only (in fact it's only 3/4 ballast and 2 people in the boat)
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Old    Joe Mc D (jmcdanie)      Join Date: Oct 2009       08-17-2010, 7:11 AM Reply   
Let me start off by saying that I have not been in an Axis, but I do own an MB TWB and love it. When I was looking for a boat, the biggest selling point for me was the ballast system, interior space, storage space, tower strength, nice trailer, ease of fitting it into a garage, and the fact that the boat comes standard with most options. When looking at other boats (new atleast), you get a quote for the boat, but then you have to add this and that tomake it what you want. The MB has just about everything stock (Cruise, Swivel racks, Ipod connection, stainless cup holders, wind dam, bimini, 1800 lb ballast system, dual batteries with perko switch, bow cushion, power rear motor hatch, interior LED lighting, large cooler, large gas tank (64 gallon)). The things it does not come with however are the things I usually equate with having to fix, replace, or repair at some point in the future (gas shocks under seats, ballast pumps, ballast bags, LCD screens, etc).

I actually have the PCM EX343 CAT motor in my boat and is very efficient on gas and has plenty of power. With kids on the boat alot, I wanted to keep the emissions down to a minimum and I have never smelt a hint of exhaust which is vvery nice! I know CO2 is odorless, but the other contaminents from the exhast that come out with it are not.

The fact that you can fill and empty the tanks in such a short amount of time really impressed me the most. I do not have TONS of time to be out on the water with a 4 month old, so when I am on the water, I want to play, not sit around and wait for my ballast pumps to fill and empty. I just open the tanks while the rider is putting on their vest and board and before they even get in the water, the ballast is full. It also makes it very easy to adjust the wake without people having to move because you can just dump a little from either side to clean it up once on plane. We also like to surf and you can go from wakeboarding directly to surfing and just open up the tank on the side you are not surfing on and once on plane, it is empty really quick and you have your surf wave.

The storage space is crazy in the boat as well. We fit a 5'6" surfboard in the back hatch and it just disappears.

The only thing I have had to add to my MB is a Boost Box so I do not have to fool with the radio.

I live in VA and the dealer that used to handle my boat is no longer open for business, but I know MB will stand behind the product and any PCM qualified dealer can perform engine warranty work.

From what I have read about the Axis, it is also a very nice boat, so I am sure you cannot go wrong with either choice. I know it is tough to decide what to get, but it sure is FUN! Enjoy whichever boat you decide on.
Old    Joe Mc D (jmcdanie)      Join Date: Oct 2009       08-17-2010, 7:21 AM Reply   
One last thing. If you really like those runway lights on the trailer, you can just order the kit and install them yourself. I was thinking I would like them, but I just do not go out enough at night at this point to warrant it.

http://www.boatmateparts.com/product...60-1041RL+.htm
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       08-17-2010, 7:40 AM Reply   
I'm surprised at how many people are down playing the no local dealer issue. Last year I was unlucky enough to rip the rudder off of my boat along with other damage. Stuff happens, no matter how good the boat build is.

Malibu is selling more inboards than anyone and they have for years. Still growing, and still opening new dealers aside from the Copes crash on the West Coast. Larson in Stockton just ripped out Nautique to sell Malibus / Axis for a reason.

I suspect also that when it's time to sell the Axis, it's going to move faster for you. Look at how much the brand has grown in only two years.
Old    Chattwake (chattwake)      Join Date: Jan 2010       08-17-2010, 7:50 AM Reply   
Ok. I see now. We're talking a used 2010 verses a new 2011. That explains the price difference. What about warranty periods? How much is left on the MB warranty? When was the boat purchased by the original owner? Have you called your local dealers to see if there would be a problem working on the MB?

I've owned six wakeboats. EVERY single one of them has had problems that needed warranty work. My local CC dealer is top notch and has fixed every little issue my boat has had quickly. There are other dealers in this area that don't have as good of a reputation about service work. Before you buy something, you need to know what your options will be when something goes wrong.

Sounds to me like both boats are great choices. Just do your homework.
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-17-2010, 8:17 AM Reply   
I used to be a dealer. Yes we sold MB's, but they were not even 1/4 of our service pool. When a customer brought in a Malibu with the bottom cleaned out, I called Malibu, ordered the parts, reinstalled everything and picked up the insurance check. The fact that it was a Malibu and not a brand I sold had absolutely no bearing on the turn around time, price, or anything. Why do you guys think service departments care what brand boat they are working on? The boats all use the same parts for the most part and money is green.
Old    Andrew"Jet"Mitchell (andrewjet)      Join Date: Jan 2003       08-17-2010, 8:21 AM Reply   
I love Supra and Malibu, and Axis is on my radar, but Im Impressed with that MB wake. Fit and finish looks tight. Nice boat guys, I wouldn't have paid any attention to the MB without this thread. Here is something you need to consider. I buy cars (porsche's, hondas), crotchrockets (900RR, GXR 750) and boats (Supra in 95' it was one of the best boats, still have her) with one thing in mind. The WANT FACTOR, the want factor = RESALE VALUE!! All of these vehicles had BIG want factors, the more people that want your car or boat the more money Its worth. Thats the KEY to buying anything if you want to get rid of it later and you want to make a good return on it. Every car, boat and motor cycle you see above I bought it drove it for a year or two and sold it for more than what i paid for it, except the boat which I still have, but I bought it for $12,500 in 1995 and could sell it today for $9000-$10,000. Not bad return after 15 years. We wont talk about the $10,000 I put into it, lol. The MB would worry me in this category, I have never heard a friend say "yeah, I'm looking at a new or used MB".....RED FLAG!!...RED FLAG!! Doesn't matter what kind of boat you have and how great it is built, because when you want to sell it, you want that phone to ring off the wall not sit around and keep dropping the price until someone can't pass it up at that low of a price. My .02 Jet
Old    Joe Mc D (jmcdanie)      Join Date: Oct 2009       08-17-2010, 10:02 AM Reply   
Jet, I do understand the reasoning behind your post, but from my perspective, I do not want to have the SAME exact boat that everyone else seems to have. I realize that their are tons of different types, but when you pull up to a sandbar or are driving on the water, being the 5th Mastercraft or Malibu on the water that I see that day just does not appeal to me.

At the end of the day, I like to be a little different.

Don't get me wrong though, you have a valid point and if resale is on the top of your list, this is definately something to think about. I do not purchase items with Resale on the top of my list because I am the type of person who usually keeps my toys for longer periods of time (plan on keeping my MB for 10-15 years atleast). I believe that if I buy it new and take really good care of it (which I do), then it will last me a long time. I feel the same way about this for most luxury items. Though, I do have a Honda VTX1300 which there are many of...but I have customized to make it my own...boats and bikes are diffferent however.
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-17-2010, 10:15 AM Reply   
I see the numbers on a lot of boat purchases and sales. MB's have excellent resale value. Does a 2003 MB B-52 cost about 5-k less than a 2003 Super Air Nautique Used? Yes. Did the MB cost 10-15k less when it was new in 2003? Yes.

Resale is not a problem with MB's, but you have to price them right and remember what you paid for them. A lot of MB owners try to price them the same or more than the Big 3 competition because after owning them for a few years, they feel like the MB is a better boat. I see lots of MB owners pricing their 5 year old boats 2-5k less than what they bought them for, do they sometimes sell for that? Yes.
Old    Andrew"Jet"Mitchell (andrewjet)      Join Date: Jan 2003       08-17-2010, 10:15 AM Reply   
And I understand your point. If you keep it a long time it negates everything I said. Dude I was impressed with the boat and the wake LOOKS bigger. Good luck to ya. Jet
Old    Hate2party (slipknot)      Join Date: Aug 2001       08-17-2010, 10:21 AM Reply   
E, call these guys in Arlington. 4 hours is not bad to get the annual service done, and warranty stuff taken care of is it?

http://www.mcandrewmotors.com/Inventory.aspx#1

he has some 2011 on order as well
Old    Jason Buffalow (buffalow)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-17-2010, 10:44 AM Reply   
E,

Hit me up personally so I can set up the test drive.

jb@buffac.com
Old    Charles S (Chuch)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-17-2010, 11:00 AM Reply   
Yo E!, in my best Entourage voice, the good news buddy is that you have already sold the old one. Nothing but good times ahead man! lol
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-17-2010, 11:03 AM Reply   
Yo E! you are going to get a smokin' deal on something. gotta love public purchases.
Old    Charles S (Chuch)      Join Date: Mar 2010       08-17-2010, 11:20 AM Reply   
We don't want him to experience buyers remorse do we?

Do it! Do it! Do it!
Old    E (22vdrive)      Join Date: Apr 2010       09-10-2010, 10:45 AM Reply   
Okay so yesterday I picked up my MB F21 Tomcat. I am super stoked with the purchase and can't wait to take it out this weekend. Thanks to everyone who chimed in and helped make this decision. I tried many different boats out but in the end the F21 won hands down with all the standard features it had and not to mention how solid the boat feels
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Old    Hate2party (slipknot)      Join Date: Aug 2001       09-10-2010, 11:01 AM Reply   
NICE, i was going to buy that one. Mike Murphys old boat. Very Classic one off gel design. You will Love it! Hope you are ready for a monstrous wake

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