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Old     (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       05-16-2010, 2:34 PM Reply   
Paradise Watersports brought out a 2010 F-21 and a 2010 VLX to pull the contest. The contest was awesome, flat water, little to no wind, a lot of sponsors and swag, and it ran smoothly except when they had to change over boats.

VLX- didnt get to ride behind this new hull, but the boat looks incredible. The fit and finish both inside and out was better than on the previous boat (05-08) imo. I am sure the wake is great too.

F-21- had a bad experience a couple years back when a F-23 was brought out to pull us. They could not get both sides of the wake consistent, so it was scrapped and another boat ended up pulling the event. So yesterday there was a beautiful white and orange F-21. My buddy ended up riding behind it in order to get the wake dialed in and he loved it, so I was all excited to ride it. I think the set up was as follows. stock ballast full (1800 lbs?) a 400 in each rear locker, a 250 or so in the front port locker, and a 250 or so in the bow under the filler cushion. I am guestimating about 3000 lbs plus 5 or 6 people. When I rode, they were experiencing a problem with the ballast drain valve or something, so the starboard wake was a little washed out, but the port side wake was mackin. it was hard and big and clean. We rode 80 at 25 and we were getting booted. I was dissapointed that the wake was a little dirty on my heelside, but I know it was due to the ballast system. So, they switched over to the VLX and tried to set it up for the pro's... it took about 45 minutes to do so.

The boat had 0 hours on it and had not been tested yet. I definitely want more time behind this wake. The "look" of the boat is not attractive to me, and the stock bimini top looks cheap... but the fit and finish of this boat is excellent. the layout of the interior makes it feel like a much bigger boat. the tower is tall and solid, and the swivel racks are nice. The interior vinyl feels plush and thick. The dash layout is simple and clean. The ballast fills super fast. There is very little engine noise and the electric hatch lifts are pretty cool. There is plenty of storage and the rear lockers have plenty of room for big sacks although I don't know if it is possible to add sacks to the stock ballast system.

I have heard it said that MB F-21 is price matching Axis' A22. If that is the case, I think that there will be alot of new F-21 owners this next year.

The only bummer was that the ballast system was failing, and for many of us, yesterday was our "first impression". You'd think MB sales/reps would have taken the boat out just to check all the systems before pulling a 40+ rider competition, and make sure the wake was dialed. I just think it was a mistake to not have the boat presented with its "A-game". With that said, I was super impressed with the boat and now understand a little bit better why Rathy signed with MB.

I highly recommend riding and driving both the new vlx's, F-21's and Axis boats.

Last edited by johnny_defacto; 05-16-2010 at 2:36 PM. Reason: Mis-spell
Old     (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       05-16-2010, 9:13 PM Reply   
Sorry to hear the ballast wasn't working quite right.

I'm surprised to hear you didn't like the bimini. It's one of my favorite features on the boat. It's HUGE... covers almost the entire cockpit area back to the rear bench. It's also quite easy to take up and down.

Old     (JohnnyDefacto)      Join Date: Mar 2010       05-17-2010, 10:20 AM Reply   
You are right, the bimini is really big and did shade the entire cab of the boat. I did not get a chance to see how it is rolled up/taken down, my comment was directed at the look and style of the bimini, not the actual quality or funtionality. It worked as designed, big, did not make flapping noises at speed... I guess the styling is subjective, and it would not prevent anyone from buying this boat, I just think it does not match the high quality and lines of the rest of the boat, you know?

Even with the ballast/wake problems, I heard nothing but positive comments from all the other riders and spectators about the boat. This is a complete 180 from a few years ago when the F23 was brought out, nothing but negative comments were heard then. MB did a great job on this boat, but I am still getting an Axis!!!
Old     (sthcst)      Join Date: Nov 2007       05-17-2010, 7:31 PM Reply   
Not cool bro. You just dropped the hammer down on your local dealer
and their sales guy! Don't get me wrong, thanks for the good info and
your opinions on the boats they supplied, but I know the guys that work
there and they are down to 4 guys total-1 of which (Chris Loomis) is
running the entire front half of the operation (sales/finance/boat
show/demo/customer service/deliveries and more). You gave great props
to MB and Malibu (well deserved) but I would be willing to bet the last
little bit of my savings that they didn't even know clwc hosted a
tournament let alone that their boats were pulling it. The manufacturers
have not invested anything in these situations. The boats are sold as
far as they are concerned. Itís the dealer that allows hours and
potential damage resulting in depreciated sales prices on them. Itís
the dealer that gets them to and from an event. Itís the dealer that is
spending the time, money, and man power. You had 2 brand new, hot off
the press, world class wake boats because of them. Itís May, the
busiest time of the year for boat dealers, they are on skeleton crews, no
budget, serious OT, and working for peanuts just to stay alive in
this economy so I'm surprised you had boats at all.
Was Paradise the first choice for clwc? Options?
1. Naut gone. (ROI for hosting the events didn't seem to pan out too
well apparently)
2. MC not willing or able to provide boats.
3. Cancel tourney.
4. Ask Paradise.
That's my guess as to how the club got there. It is a bummer that you
didn't get to ride the boat, sounds like all your buddies that rode
before you laid it down and loved it. Kudos to all. With that said,
how was it the sales rep's (factory doesn't supply them so I guess that
would be Chris) fault that the boat was in working condition when
delivered for half the event and then popped a fuse or whatever mid
day? Has your 98 had trouble free operation from day 1? Stuff happens,
bummer. Glad they provided you with a 2nd boat to enjoy your day on
the water. Good luck getting another tourney pulled in the future
Sorry to go on, I don't mean to rip but I know how hard these guys (all
dealers) are working and how little they are getting right now. Walk
in a commision guys shoes in this economy for awhile before you throw
him under the bus.
Old     (slipknot)      Join Date: Aug 2001       05-17-2010, 7:50 PM Reply   
what he said

Good luck with your Axis

Maybe you can pull the tourney with your boat, but I doubt they sell you one or service it for you
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       05-17-2010, 8:48 PM Reply   
I thought it was a pretty good review, don't know why you feel Johnny shouldn't keep it real in his feedback?
Old     (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       05-17-2010, 9:32 PM Reply   
wow.... both you (sthcst) and slipknot sure get butt-hurt really easily.

Slipknot: Thank you, I hope I have a great experience with my Axis, I am sure I will. In fact, I will be purchasing it from Paradise, through Chris Loomis, he has been incredibly helpful and am confident they will sell me one and will service it for me (even though I am highly handy with a motor and have done all my service and repair on my tige myself) which fortunately has not been a lot.

southcoast or whatever: you are wrong in many ways, speculating in others, and was not accurately reading what I posted in the rest.

wrong: "dealer gets them to and from event" nope, a CLWC member drove to the dealer, picked up the MB, cleaned it up after and delivered it back. As for the VLX, it belongs to "a different Chris", not Chris Loomis, and was his brand new personal boat that he kindly brought out for us.
"working for half the event..." nope, the VLX pulled 95% of the comp. The MB worked for 1 rider during setup, shortly after it pulled 4 of us in my division and the boat wake was being difficult the whole time, being adjusted even as I took my passes.
"don't mean to rip..." yeah, you do, and you did.
"...before you throw him under the bus." nope. did not throw anybody under the bus, especially this mystery "him" guy you are going on about. did not name a single person. I stated facts, and when I gave my opinion, I used phrases such as "you'd think" or "i just think that" to emphasize what was to follow was not fact, just opinion.

speculating: "thats my guess as to how the club got there." Well, your "guess" is wrong. Points #1 and #2 may be correct, but as for #3, you are terribly wrong. I have been a dues paying member of CLWC for a couple years and we have had many competitions without boat support, and the comps are never cancelled, we just use one of our boats instead.
"popped a fuse". maybe. maybe not. you don't know. (and if you do in fact know, then you are deceitfully misrepresenting yourself in this post as someone who is only using the info he pulled from my statement to disagree with me, when actually you have a different agenda, probably monetarily motivated).
"good luck getting another tourney pulled..." I do not need luck, for I am not an organizer. I show up, pay my fees, take my passes, check out all the sponsor tents and the gear, sometimes buy stuff, hang out with my friends and support them, and try to get as much info on the boat(s) that are pulling the event. I have no say in what boat pulls it, and slipknot, next year if clwc needs a boat for an event, I will gladly use my future Axis. So many of my "first impressions" of boats have come from CLWC competitions. Because of boat companies pulling CLWC, I have had "first impressions" of the following boats; Epic 23v, Mastercraft X-star, 06+ SAN, Mastercraft X-2, MB F-23, MB F-21, not to forget the following CLWC members boats that were used as well.... Moomba xlv, 08 malibu VLX, 04 SAN.
"walk in a commission guys shoes...before you throw him under the bus." first, it was not a bus, it was a wakeboat. second, you do not know me, and obviously do not know anything about being hit by a bus.
"has your 98 had trouble free op. from day 1?" nope. I was not with the boat from day one. I began my experience with my tige sometime around day 2,921. (thats 8 years after the boats' "day one" give or take 2 or so for leap years). But what does my tige troubles have to do with a ballast problem on a new boat that, in the past, has had some bad reviews or "press", and more recently has had really great reviews with the allegedly new hull?

not accurately reading: "bummer that you didn't get to ride the boat". I did get to ride it, I said so. I liked the wake, want more time behind it, did not bum me out that my 2 passes were with a jacked up hs wake and was having the speed moved from 25.5 down to 24 to try to fix it as I rode. I still liked it. you are not paying attention.
"sounds like your buddies..." not buddies, one buddy. He took a pass with a couple people in the F21 and according to him, it was fantastic. Later, I was the first rider to be pulled by it, they took a practice pass or two with 5 or 6 people in it to check/adjust the wake and were having problems immediately.

there is more, but I am tired.

I re-read my post and stick by it. It is a completely honest, non-biased, fair and balanced review of my first experience with the F-21. I have no ties or loyalties to any dealer or boat maker. I do not need to endorse any company, dealer, rider, or salesman/rep. I do not have a complete grasp of what boat dealerships and their employees are going through at this time, nor is it any of my concern. I am thankful to have had the chance to check out 2 new boats, and I am sure that CLWC manager(s) were thankful to have the boats out as well. again, not my concern. I am just a guy who will be dropping 40-50K on a new boat this year and would expect that any salesman would want my money, and would be disappointed if their product was not being shown at its full potential. The F21 was not at its full potential. I was still impressed and encouraged everyone to go check one out for yourself.

MB is a small name compared to "the big 3". I do not care who did or didn't do their job or if its the dealers responsibility to dial in a boat before they give it to pull a competition...I did not point any fingers at any person. It was you, sthcst, that did this. So shame on you for throwing your buddies at paradise under the boat.
Old     (slipknot)      Join Date: Aug 2001       05-17-2010, 10:13 PM Reply   
great review then Johnny, I hope you have great success with your new Axis
Old     (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       05-17-2010, 10:26 PM Reply   
Forget it, I am not tired anymore, you were really out of line sthcst.

I am a consumer.

I gave an honest review.

95% was positive.

5% was negative. You are mad because the 5% negative, in your opinion, was pointed directly at the dealerships employees. You have the audacity to insinuate that all dealer comments must be positive or else the dealer is being "thrown under" something.

Yes, my negative comments may reflect poorly on the dealership to some people. To others, they may disagree with my opinion that it was a "mistake", and think that the dealership went above and beyond what was expected of a boat dealer by allowing the use of 2 new boats. Would you have lectured me if I made a statement that may reflect positively on a dealership that you did not like or agree with? (your answer is obviously "no"). So why then lecture me after I opined about the possibility that the dealership could have done more?

Furthermore, I will guess that dealerships pay attention to what is said about them and their competitors here on WW and the rest of the internet. I will also guess that they welcome and appreciate positive feedback, as well as use "honest" negative feedback to improve and make their business better. Bottom line, they want to make money. To make money, they need to sell boats. To sell boats, they need people to look at the boat, drive the boat, ride behind the boat, and most of all, love the boat. First impressions usually only happen once. As for MB, I have had 2 first impressions, first one in 08 was bad, second one on Saturday was really good, and was almost great... I hope for MB and paradise that the rest of the 70+ people at the comp had the same first impression on Saturday.

All of my comments and feedback towards the boats and paradise watersports were completely honest, even the tiny bit of negative. I am, however, suspect of your defense of said dealership, and question your motives. Albeit I have no evidence to support my suspicions.

With boats, crap happens. When you demo, you have a good amount of time to play with the boat. Usually when something goes wrong on a demo, you can still get past it to really see if you like the boat. In a 5 minute pull, you do not have the same luxury. You get 5 minutes behind the boat and it better be good because you want that rider/buyer to come back for a full demo and then sign on the dotted line.
Old     (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       05-18-2010, 12:21 AM Reply   
Johnny - I thought your review was fine.

Just out of curiosity, why are you picking Axis over MB? With so many great boats out there I'm always curious to read why people pick the boats they do.

As somebody who looked at both last year, I'm curious how you came to your conclusion.
Old     (beleza)      Join Date: Mar 2010       05-18-2010, 12:35 AM Reply   
I'm with Johnny on this one. SthCst, simmer down bro. If you are in any way affiliated with Paradise or MB or whoever, then you just put a nick in their reputation in my eyes. As a consumer, I thought Johnny did a great job of describing the event and didn't at all seem like he was bashing anybody. Gave a lot of good info and gave necessary props to all that were involved in the event. Yeah crap happens, we all understand that. The way you got your panties in a bunch because someone so much as mentioned it.... c mon.

Johnny, thanks for the great review! It was one of the better ones I've read in a while.
Old     (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       05-18-2010, 4:12 AM Reply   
Johnny, I think you gave a fair review. I am really sorry that they could not get the ballast right, the wake is amazing. With MB's new ballast system, there is certainly more room for operator error since it is a totally different concept than a pump based system. But once you figure it out, it is 10x better and faster, literally.
Old     (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       05-18-2010, 6:51 PM Reply   
DBC. To be honest, My wife and I decided on the Axis without even considering the F21 for 2 reasons. 1) the price 2) because of my first "first impression" with the F23 a couple years ago.

My wife and I wanted to buy new (or nearly new). We want to spend 45K. I want close to 4000 lbs water ballast, all hidden, all on switches (like the epic). we want a decent size boat that we can take to powell/havasu/don pedro.... but it still has to fit on the local lakes with length limits. something with a lot of seating, with adjustable seating arrangements (like the nautiques and supras ssv's). I want a clean simple boat without extra crap and bling, and most of all, a wake that I love.

My favorite wake is the Xstar, but its way above what I want to spend on a boat, and then have to add 3000 more pounds of sacks, plus I do not like the seating/cab arrangement, too small in the cab, and has the standard boat seating arrangement that is way overdue for an overhaul. The boat is a 22' but it feels small, smaller than the F21. the tower and racks are second to none, the boat kinda drives like a pig when weighted, not a huge issue, but we have a narrow riding area, so It is an issue.

My wife's favorite boat is the VLX, it is my second favorite wake. New is too much money. not enough stock ballast and not enough room in the bow for me to plumb and hide enough ballast... I do not want to use any lead any more. Yes, we could buy a few years old vlx to stay within budget, but then I still have the problem with plumbing hidden bow sacks. It drives well, love the tower, love the look of the boat, has a lot of cab space, but again the seating arrangement is standard and not adjustable.

3rd favorite wake is the old san (pre 2007?). We want newer than 2006, boat is too small, and most of all, my wife does not like it one bit.
The new san is a nice wake, nice seating arrangement, love the look and tower, just too much money and not enough stock ballast.

Our price left us basically with the moombas, supremes, some tige's, calabria... All nice boats, but none met my requirements. I thought we were going to have to settle with a slightly used vlx until axis came around.

Axis: same or similar hull to the vlx (v25 hull), 22 footer, feels huge inside, chillax seating plus sliding bench easily allows 5 adults to sit backwards and watch the action. 900 stock ballast, add the "plug and play" and I can get 1500 up front, hidden on a switch, and 1800 in the rear, on switches. No more bags or lead on the floor. I love malibu wakes, and this one is no different. The boat is simple, drives nice, looks really cool, love the windshield and tower, nothing extra, no billet, no hand wrapped leather anything. I will go wedgeless, put my own stereo in, keep the stock boatmate trailer, no LED's, just the chilax upgrade, plug and play, swivel drivers chair, and a proper prop for the weight I plan. With the standard motor, I can get this, all with a warranty with the dealer 10 miles away for $45kish.

F21- even if they would price match the A22 (msrp of the 2009 was 60k, so I doubt it) , the seating arrangement is not what I want, it will not be as easy as the axis to add ballast, or hide it. I like the look of the axis boat, tower and windshield better. The fit and finish of the F21 is better, and so far i really like the wake.

I guess it all came down to the most bang for the buck, and I think the Axis beats them all, hands down.
Old     (mdaijogo)      Join Date: Mar 2010       05-18-2010, 7:34 PM Reply   
It is a very cool thing to see how different boat owners look at different aspect of boats.

@Johnny- All the things you said were pretty much what I said but exactly reversed. I did get the F21 over all the other boats in the market after 2 years of research. The fact that I need a boat the fit in a garage narrowed my search down. I wish you the best of luck with your decision. Whatever you do decide I have a feeling that you will be enjoying it as much as every other boater enjoys their boat.

Old     (ixfe)      Join Date: Aug 2008       05-19-2010, 12:27 AM Reply   

That is a well written, well thought out post. Best of luck to you. I can't wait to see pics of your Axis. Sounds like it's just the boat for you!


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