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Old    deltahoosier            04-02-2010, 9:19 AM Reply   
AT&T Will Take $1B Non-Cash Charge for Health Care

NEW YORK (AP) -- AT&T Inc. will take a $1 billion non-cash accounting charge in the first quarter because of the health care overhaul and may cut benefits it offers to current and retired workers.

The charge is the largest disclosed so far. Earlier this week, AK Steel Corp., Caterpillar Inc., Deere & Co. and Valero Energy announced similar accounting charges, saying the health care law that President Barack Obama signed Tuesday will raise their expenses. On Friday, 3M Co. said it will also take a charge of $85 million to $90 million.


AT&T also said Friday that it is looking into changing the health care benefits it offers because of the new law. Analysts say retirees could lose the prescription drug coverage provided by their former employers as a result of the overhaul.
Old    bigdtx            04-02-2010, 9:39 AM Reply   
It's just an accounting ploy. These companies get gov't subsidies for retiree health benefits but have been able to write off the subsidies as actual company expenses - something small businesses have never been able to do. So this is actually a reduction in corporate welfare - which is a good thing.
Old    deltahoosier            04-02-2010, 10:05 AM Reply   
It also going to get retirees booted from their retirement health care and onto medicade. It is also going to get the extremely large number of people who chose to join corporate America into high premiums and most likely cuts in benefits.

I don't think it is such a good thing.

Remember, most small businesses come about to help service the larger businesses. I would not down play corporations too much.
Old     (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       04-02-2010, 10:07 AM Reply
Old    deltahoosier            04-02-2010, 10:14 AM Reply   
Interesting article Paul. Sounds like people working for large companies are going to be in for it. Meaning job cuts or massive cuts in benefits. I don't believe for one minute that the power industry wants actually cap and trade if that is what this guy was talking about. IF they do, it must mean they want it so they can get on with business so they don't hold back spending waiting for a bill or they want it so they can profit from the cap and trade (which is a scam to begin with).
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       04-02-2010, 10:16 AM Reply   
Don't you guys ever see the bright side?

"The process used to pass the health-care measure is “unfortunate” because it dims prospects for getting legislation this year that would put a cap on the greenhouse-gas pollution blamed for climate change. "
Old    deltahoosier            04-02-2010, 10:23 AM Reply   
I saw that. That is why I wonder why a energy company exec appears to want cap and trade legislation? I smell a rat. I don't think anyone noticed that Obama also put out that car companies are now required to increase fleet GPM by 10 GPM in 6 years.

Did you notice this in the article:

Also on Friday, Reps. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., and Bart Stupak, D-Mich., said they are asking the CEOs of Caterpillar, Verizon, Deere and others to testify at an April 21 House subcommittee hearing on claims that the health care law could hurt their ability to provide health insurance to workers.
Old     (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       04-02-2010, 10:46 AM Reply   
Rogers, who is a director of U.S. health insurer Cigna Corp. “The total cost of this has been significantly underestimated.”

it wasn't underestimated by Republicans, only Democrats......
Old     (poser007)      Join Date: Nov 2004       04-02-2010, 10:52 AM Reply   
yeah read that, so now the govenrment can call you out if you say something that they don't like? I can't stand Waxman, he looks like he used to get beat up for his lunch money back in the day. Now he is giving pay back. It will be interesting to see how all this plays out.

If you listen to Pelosi and Obama this is only the beggining, they are fundementaly changing America from the inside out. Nobody really knew this guy before he ran for President, he ran on change, everyone jumped on the band wagon, if this keeps up, within 3 years the face of America will be changed forever.

It's crazy how just a handful of people can change society like this.
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       04-02-2010, 11:42 AM Reply   
Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
I saw that. That is why I wonder why a energy company exec appears to want cap and trade legislation? I smell a rat.
You mean GE? They want to sell renewable energy technology.

Originally Posted by deltahoosier View Post
I don't think anyone noticed that Obama also put out that car companies are now required to increase fleet GPM by 10 GPM in 6 years.
This is long overdue, by about 20 years.

Also on Friday, Reps. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., and Bart Stupak, D-Mich., said they are asking the CEOs of Caterpillar, Verizon, Deere and others to testify at an April 21 House subcommittee hearing on claims that the health care law could hurt their ability to provide health insurance to workers.[/B]
This is what I was hoping for. I didn't count on heathcare reform to fix heathcare. I expected it to upset the apple cart.
Old    deltahoosier            04-02-2010, 1:29 PM Reply   
The 10 mpg is actually done to matchs the new EPA co2 output requirements. Remember the article I posted a few months back about the EPA now saying CO2 is a gas they are going to regulate? Well, this is the back door attack that I told you was coming. The president can now make this call without congress even being involved. I don't like it. Too much power to a biased agency and too much power for the executive branch considering all the fraud in the global warming errrr climate change debate. It is now climate change right? hard to keep up when they keep getting their necks stepped on and changing their montra.

I don't think it is GE in the article. I think it was Duke energy. Too many people waiting to profit off of the cap and trade and everyone knows it. Question is, will they stop it.

On healthcare, it does not matter if they upset the apple cart. You are going after all the people who purchase insurance on workers behalf. You are now screwing all the people who worked hard, having to deal with the corporate rat race so they can have insurance. The providers do not give a crap how much the insurance companies charge for premiums to people. Most doctors have enough people waiting in line that they can pick and chose if they wish. It just makes their lives easier to not have as many people waiting. Prices will not drop they are getting ready to sky rocket. You can not add extra risk/ usage to a system that only is making 5% profit. They will keep the profit margin and jack up the rates. The working poor will now have to spend extra money to pay for all this but still not be able to afford the deductibles to go to the doctor.

I say let it ride. This will set the democrats back a decade or more. The progressives are already starting to eat their own on this one as well.
Old    deltahoosier            04-02-2010, 2:28 PM Reply   
Interesting read about how Obama Care plans to possible cut costs. I wondered how the US has nearly a 20% cancer survivor rate compared to Europe. It turns out it is may not be advanced medical care in the US but it may just be plain ol denial of service. Read the article, it goes through some of the numbers.

N.Y. Times columnist: Death panels will save 'a lot of money'
Paul Krugman tells 'Roundtable' economists agree it's 'going to be major'
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       04-02-2010, 2:51 PM Reply   
A placebo is 71% as effective as a $4000/mo drug and it's free. Seems like a Conservative's dream.
Old     (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       04-02-2010, 6:26 PM Reply
Old     (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       04-02-2010, 6:28 PM Reply
Old     (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       04-03-2010, 7:45 AM Reply   
Originally Posted by ord27 View Post
No links in the article to that mythical poll.

This doesn't look like the article's numbers.;contentBody

Last edited by fly135; 04-03-2010 at 7:47 AM.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       04-03-2010, 9:07 AM Reply   
Oh crap, here we go with the death panels again.

It must be hard living a life where you have to constantly hide under your bed scared of death panels, terrorists, and Socialist America
Old    deltahoosier            04-03-2010, 9:08 AM Reply   
Not sure what you are trying to show with your link John, but, those numbers are horrible. Matter of fact some of the economic opinion numbers were heading up prior to the first of year and are now heading down again. Just so you know, the examiner is the probably one of the most liberal piece of crap newspapers in the country.
Old    deltahoosier            04-03-2010, 9:20 AM Reply   
Jeremy, it is your boy Krugman who was explaining on how they cut costs. He is on your side. You are the one bitching about not having healthcare for old people and the poor. Well they do have socialized healthcare and guess what? The government is the biggest denier of treatment compared to all health insurance providers.

Let's just get this all out of the way. I got that from Faux news, or limbaugh told us what to think, or Hannity and Coulter said that, or republicans aren't educated enough to think for themselves, conservatives are always running scared, yada yada. Now that I just got your typical half dozen echo chamber comments out of the way, let's talk facts. Or is this the part where you disappear?

Health care (not insurance) will not work unless they plan on denying treatment at some point. That is what they were discussing. It is a fact of life, but, some people on the left can not handle the truth. As soon as you guys understand that your boy Obama set you up for this, the easier you will understand the world and stop thinking with you emotions. It is easy. There are bad people in the world. Economics at the end the day trump emotions on the macro scale. Sometimes people of different points of view, when they are actually intellectually honest, look at the facts they make the same decisions. Patriot Act, Gitmo, Iraq, Afghanistan, end of life planning, and so on.

Beyond that, I don't really care what any democrat in the public realm even says anymore. You come up with the same half dozen talking points that are meant to belittle the other side (education, religion, news sources) and you constantly lie even when facts such as democrats voting records are right in front of them.
Old    deltahoosier            04-03-2010, 9:22 AM Reply   
And Jeremy, why would terrorists scare me. They typically bomb liberal cities right? If I really were partisan in regards to terror, why would I care? Your talking points are tiresome. Come with facts.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       04-03-2010, 9:55 AM Reply   
That is the difference between me and you. You read something from a "Conservative" author and take it as gospel. You read something from a "Liberal" author and immediately dismiss it as crap. I look at all articles objectively and try to draw my own conclusions. Political affiliation has very little to do with how I examine things.

If I have lied about anything, what is it?

It is funny how conservatives become economic experts when a Democrat president is in office. Where were all these experts when we went to war with Afghanistan and Iraq simultaneously? It was okay to sink a trillion dollars into Iraq, but to invest that money into something that will actually show results in the US, that is a bad thing?
Old    deltahoosier            04-03-2010, 10:27 AM Reply   
Actually I spend a vast majority of my time reading liberal/ progressive websites. I don't listen to beck, limbaugh, or hannity. Micheal Savage when I happen to be on the road at the right time.

Here is the mistake you and your typical liberal poster has yet to understand. We do think for ourselves. We look at the real life implications and since most of us have had to make it in the world, we understand cause and effect. Most of what I see from the liberal side is the typical talking points. Uh... you only get that because you listen to Rush.....You know how many times I see that posted on liberal websites in talking about conservatives? It is in almost every thread at least 10 times. Have you people ever stopped to think that maybe Rush and company are saying what we think and not us saying what they think? That is why they are popular. That is why liberal talk shows can not stay on the air unless they add some sort of side bit (like comedy).

At the end of the day, the facts float to the top regardless of political affiliations. For example, how is both husband and wife being the social norm working out for society? Kids running amuck, school system sucks because parents don't have time to be involved and so on. The idea sounded great and liberating to get both parents out of the house, but at the end of the day it has cause more social harm than good. The economics just kept pace in regards to cost of goods and so on. That markets just adjusted to demand so the price increased. No one really got ahead financially but we are dying socially.

All the republican financial experts were too busy fending off the borish and childish attacks on a daily basis from the about the war. The economic message was not even heard since democrats were being liars about the wars they voted for and even in the previous administration (democrat) made the plans and the arguments to take saddam out. That is what happened. Matter of fact, that is why democrats got elected in congress in 2006 right. It was about the war. Of course, not a thing changed about the wars now did it? Why? Because democrats are liars. They voted for it too. Only care they had about the war was they could convince people they had a different perspective on the war (anti?) and get themselves voted back into power. Notice how we never heard another thing about the wars after 2006? Before that, it was we will never win. We are war criminals and so on. I have zero respect for the democrats because of it.

At the end of the day, wars end social programs do not. That is the difference. We bailed out wall street in ONE DAY with the amount of money both wars used in almost an entire decade. Remember, even during the lying about voting records the dems were doing, Afgahnistan was still considered a war worth fighting. I say Iraq was just for the better chance of over time to change the overall social climate of the region toward the west.

If you wanted to be honest, Clinton and company would have started to reign in the fake internet stock (money) give away and not made that stupid revision of the law about having mandates to giving mortgages to people who can not afford them. Sounded good on paper, but, the economics just adjusted for it. Now we are all screwed from it. Clinton is not entirely to blame since he had a republican congress, but, no one wants to stop a good time. Everyone always wakes up the next day feeling like crap saying if I only did not take that last shot of Yeager I would have perfect.

I hear what you are saying about spending at home vs overseas. I get that. I am just saying that everything like that sounds good until you look at the economic realities of it (on the large central government scale) and you find the markets will adjust. They always do and at the end of the day, socially you are way worse off and in more bondage than when you started.
Old    deltahoosier            04-03-2010, 10:48 AM Reply   
Meant to say above: how is both the husband and the wife working (industry) being the social norm working out for society.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       04-03-2010, 10:49 AM Reply   
Most of your points make sense, but almost any economist (either side of the aisle) will tell you that Wall St. had to be bailed out. We had no other option than watching the financial sector collapse which would have resulted with even worse results. You still buy into the notion that there are politicians that are genuinely looking out for the best interests of their constituents. I say the Democrats realized that something was wrong with healthcare and they did something about it. The Republicans simply sat back and even at one point a couple of months ago, stated the bill was "dead" (to quote a GOP lawmaker). They thought that, instead of working bi-partisanly to come up with a collective plan, they could block the vote, defeat the Dems., and ensure success in November by boasting they defeated Obama and Pelosi. In essence, the (GOP) are not going to win back the majority in November. They will pick up some seats, but the GOP will be painted as the "do nothing" party when it comes to the interests of the American people. I know that lawmakers feel that as long as they oppose the other side, the people will support them. This may apply to the Tea Partiers (even this group is seeing division within) or die-hard conservatives, but not the general public. Have you ever read what many thought of Seward's purchase?

I think what we have done in Iraq, as far as social impact in the region, equates to trying to get rid of a bee's nest by continuously hitting it with a ball bat.
Old    deltahoosier            04-03-2010, 11:23 AM Reply   
I agree that wall street may have needed it. Hard to tell at the end of the day. Many on here argued it was a bad idea. Maybe these companies need to fail and get the healing started. I don't trust politicians any further than I can throw them. Don't mistake my motives. That is when I have the chance, the smart bet is to NOT let them have anymore power than they already have.

Everyone said there is trouble with health care. Repubs and dems alike. The difference is the republicans know that insurance is not the way to fix it. Dems seem to think insurance is the way and even worse yet, the government is the way to fix it. I would not vote at all for the democrat plan especially since I believe for an absolute fact that economically insurance does not fix anything. They just hold the money between user and supplier of health care. They pay the supplier. If they don't have enough money to give to the supplier, they ask for more money from the user. It is that simple. Eventually the user is going to say I can't give you any more money and then the supplier is going to tell them that they can not provide that service anymore. It would work itself out.

The facts that influence the cost of any good or service:

1) If you have more people than supply, you raise the prices until the demand for the service is at a level you can safely service. -

This is what was happening with nearly everyone having insurance and going in for every little thing and also feeling like they had insurance so lets go play hard and if I get hurt, don't worry about it I'll just run to the doctor.

2) If you have to pay $150,00 a year for malpractice insurance you dang well believe that cost is coming to the user of the service.

This is what the republicans wanted to eliminate but the democrats would not dream of getting rid of being they are the party of lawyers for the lawyers. Right now the cost of documentation to keep from being sued is huge. They have to keep everything for a long time so they can guard against lawsuits. I think that is near 30% of healthcare costs is the record keeping.

3) Insurance does not change the price of service. It only increases users of the service. See point 1 for impact. The price will continue to rise regardless of the newly insured and especially now that they can't kick people off the plans and kids stay on until age 26. It is going to get very expensive. I understand the insurance angle of socializing costs distribution with the younger crowd joining the pool but it does not offset the other market forces and the provider costs will soar still.

4) nothing has been done to slow down the cost of the providers. Record keeping, malpractice, FDA approvals and so on is the price of doing business when the laws are stacked in the name of patient safety.

Seward was thought an idiot but got lucky because of the gold strike and then oil. I don't think health care has any gold fields in it. Unless you are an insurance company and health care provider.

I think many of the young voters got duped into falling for typical socialistic jingles. They were rallying against all things republican (like the war and so on) trying to whip up the base and keep them active. The young people and the working poor are getting ready to realize the folly of getting what you wished for. There is a constant in the universe when it comes to goods and services (and even education). If everyone has it, it is worth nothing. Insurance is the same. The markets will adjust to where only the richest will have it, only this time the seperation is so great that the poorest of the poor will not be able to afford the bargain deals.
Old     (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       04-03-2010, 3:20 PM Reply   
The truth is we had death panels prior to the Bill being passed. Wouldn't insurance companies be considered a "death panel"? They determine whether they are going to cover you or not. What about your family? That isn't a death panel? Death panel has just been bastardized by conservatives to use as another scare tactic, that Delta, among others, have bought in to.
Old     (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       04-04-2010, 10:43 AM Reply   
I agree with someone else. There are better ways to curb the cost of health care than just taxing people and adding 16.500 more IRS agents to check and see if we're paying for health insurance. To me, most of the taxes are racist in addition to attacking corporations. Too many Americans have too light of a view on this issue. November can't come fast enough.
Old    deltahoosier            04-04-2010, 10:53 AM Reply   
I have not bought into anything. I was the one who made the insurance company basically being a death panel argument a few weeks ago right here in this forum. If I remember correctly, you and others thought the idea was crazy. Of course there are going to be death panels. You guys seemed to think that is impossible and anyone talking about that were crazy. The government could not possibly do that. Well, now you have democrats talking about the reality and that it will save money. Of course it will save money. Well guess what bud? You put the government in charge, you have zero place to appeal too. Good to see you are coming around to the realities.

You see, the democrats seem to be promising a lot of things and the little sheep think they are being protected and will never have to face that again. Well, the next phase of this is almost all people are going to have to put out substantial money to even see a doctor. Or they may keep it fairly cheap to see your primary but make it god awful expensive to see the next level of care. The market already dictates price. So, in order to insure everyone the have nots will get a little and the haves will get theirs cut. It is just the way it is.
Old     (Laker1234)      Join Date: Mar 2010       04-04-2010, 11:43 AM Reply   
In addition to that, Someone Else, some doctors are now refusing to take Medicare patients, which will be too bad if you're lucky enough to retire one day and be forced to be on Medicare, and I know one person who is deciding not to go into general practice because of the limited income he will be forced to accept. Our only prayer is enough get elected in Nov. that this will not be funded, but I'm budgeting a 100% increase in my health insurance in addition to a 10% increase in taxes. And I'm still wondering why I'm being forced into a pool of people with high-risk behaviors.
Old     (ord27)      Join Date: Oct 2005       04-04-2010, 2:43 PM Reply   
Deer Hunter interview


Ted Nugent, rock star and avid bow hunter from Michigan , was being interviewed by a liberal journalist, an animal rights activist.

The discussion came around to deer hunting.

The journalist asked, 'What do you think is the last thought in the head of a deer before you shoot him? Is it, 'Are you my friend?' or is it 'Are you the one who killed my brother?

Nugent replied, 'Deer aren't capable of that kind of thinking. All they care about is, what am I going to eat next, who am I going to screw next, and can I run fast enough to get away. They are very much like the Democrats in Congress.'

The interview ended.


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