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Old    Brian (factorykitted)      Join Date: Jul 2009       02-17-2010, 3:44 PM Reply   
Im running a 5000 watt rms set up in my new boat with two Interstates for cranking and two Kinetik 2400 HC dedicated to the stereo.

Has anyone had experience with the Guest, MarinPro or Kinetik on board chargers? If so which will be be adequate? I am seriously looking into the Kinetik 12 volt 60 amp power supply.

Thanks in advance.
Old    Murphy Smith (murphy_smith)      Join Date: Dec 2005       02-17-2010, 4:37 PM Reply   
Xantrex is a pretty high end charger.

Brett Yates (polarbill) would be a good contact on the fourm if you wanted to know more about them.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-17-2010, 5:02 PM Reply   
http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/256/p/2531/pt/7/product.asp
http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/180/p/1/pt/7/product.asp

This is what I can get. Like Murphy said, they are a commercial/heavy duty grade product.
Old    Brian (factorykitted)      Join Date: Jul 2009       02-17-2010, 7:19 PM Reply   
much more pricey than i expected..

i think the Kinetik 60 amp 12 volt is like 200-300 bucks
Old    Adam Curtis (acurtis_ttu)      Join Date: May 2004       02-18-2010, 6:16 AM Reply   
I might be wrong, but if you choose the power supply being used as a charger you will damage your batteries unless your watching them closely...you need some sort of automatic charger.

spend the money on a decent charger and get in a good routine. If not you'll be replacing batteries every year possibly sooner witih such a big system.

At 5k RMS you really need to start beefing up your alternator too, if you haven't done that yet.
Old    Ajholt7 (ajholt7)      Join Date: Apr 2009       02-18-2010, 7:02 AM Reply   
I have a cheap promariner and it works fine.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-18-2010, 8:18 AM Reply   
I agree with Adam. The problem is if you really want to do it right you are going to need to get a massive alternator like the one that Grant has or at the minimum the 150 amp Balmar. Don't buy one of those POS 150 amp units for $200 or whatever they cost. No way that will last. Honestly with that much power you might not be able to find an alternator to keep up. You probably need a 200-300 amp alternator which means you are going to be spending about a grand just for the alternator plus you will need to upgrade all your battery cables and you should use one of Balmar's marine regulators. I would also use there remote temp sensors. All in all you will spend another 2k+ to get the charging system sufficient enough to keep up with your stereo. Your best bet may be to get smart solenoid like the Sure Power 1314 or 1315. This will keep your starting battery in good shape and maybe get some juice to your stereo bank. The cheapest best solution is to just get true deep cycle Gel Cell batteries that stand alone and just charge them up every night with a good charger that is capable of charging that big of a bank and not damaging gell cells. You could also do 4+ golf cart batteries.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-18-2010, 8:53 AM Reply   
Oh yeah, I can get you a xantrex for cheaper than what is quoted on their site. From what I can tell though the Kinetik is a power source and the Xantrex is an actual charger. I am not sure they are comparable products. Notice the Xantrex has the ability to be hooked up to 3 different banks, can be switched depending on what type of batteries you have, is completely automatic and is a 3 stage charger including a float charge to keep the batteries topped off without damaging them.

(Message edited by polarbill on February 18, 2010)
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       02-18-2010, 9:02 AM Reply   
Look closer at the Kinetik to see if its as sophisticated from a conditioning standpoint. Its also a single bank which would be okay if you supplement it with a maintenance (but smart) charger for the starting bank.

Most wakeboarders have trouble justifying a sizeable investment in a large capacity multi-stage multi-bank charger. But fisherman seem to place more importance on this in general and don't hesitate to spend $400 to $500. This is because its easier for fisherman to gauge the resulting difference in battery performance, in both reserve time and in lifespan. Without a good charging system design and charging disciplines, the original amp/hour specs can be meaningless in no time.

David
Earmark Marine
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       02-18-2010, 9:24 AM Reply   
Pertaining to Brett's comments regarding the SurePower combiner/separators, you can use these in multiples to have cascading banks. This will go a long way towards protecting and preserving your alternator, if in fact you elect not to go the alternator upgrade route. However, in protecting your alternator with a combiner/separator scheme you will shift more responsibility to AC shore restoration which in turn places more importance on a really large smart multi-bank charger.

You've also got to design into a cascading scheme a provision for fixing the combiner/separators in the 'open' mode while AC charging. The dominos keep falling when you're playing with really big systems.

David
Earmark Marine
Old    Scott Schultz (scott76310)      Join Date: Sep 2009       02-18-2010, 1:12 PM Reply   
David,
I have been curious about this in the past as I want to install a SurePower 1314 and have a dual bank battery charger so how can I keep the Surepower from combining when the battery charger is charging?
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       02-18-2010, 1:16 PM Reply   
David might know of a better way but it would be easy enough to throw a battery disconnect switch in line or you could even run the ground for the sure power unit to a toggle/rocker switch on the dash. You would have to remember to turn it on though when you were using the boat so the sure power unit would actually function.
Old    Bruce Mac (brucemac)      Join Date: Dec 2005       02-18-2010, 1:39 PM Reply   
to scott's question, on the 1314, why would you care if you had a multi-bank charger?

i ask only because i have 3 batteries and a 1314.

battery 1 is starting/guages/mdc etc
batteries 2 and 3 are in parallel and dedicated to the stereo.

then i currently just use a two-bank battery tender (which i know is slow going, but it's multi-stage) and it stays plugged into batteries 1 and 2 at all times when i'm off the water.

i realize a 10-15A two bank charger would be ideal, but as long as you're charging the stereo battery bank and not trying to push it all through battery 1 and the 1314, you're good right?

i'm only 1500RMS through two WS amps by the way.
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       02-18-2010, 3:08 PM Reply   
Yes, as Brett said you can cut the ground to the solenoid with a toggle switch. SurePower frowns on this practice but has been unable to articulate as to why.

But our preferred method is to use the 'OFF', '1', '2' and 'common' terminals on a standard dual battery Perko Switch in order to provide "open during AC charge", "automatic operation" (leave it alone and let it do its job) and "emergency bypass" (in case of some failure). Its not the intended use of the battery switch but a single switch covers all scenarios this way.

Without an isolation method the Sure Power will soon circumvent the charger's independent dual-bank operation. Even identical starting and utility batteries will need separate conditioning after a number of deep cycles.

David
Earmark Marine
Old    Ken W (kenteck)      Join Date: Jan 2005       02-18-2010, 3:31 PM Reply   
5000 watts......
Old    Brian Bedell (brian_b)      Join Date: Dec 2009       02-18-2010, 4:06 PM Reply   
Holy cow, I'm confused now. You guys know a lot about this stuff.
Old    Brett (aaudii5150)      Join Date: Jun 2009       02-18-2010, 4:18 PM Reply   
We have 5 blue tops hooked to a minkota 40 amp onboad and I'll say it again, the best money we've spent so far......
Old    Bruce Mac (brucemac)      Join Date: Dec 2005       02-18-2010, 4:23 PM Reply   
don't worry, so am I.

hey Dave, can you explain aside from the low amp output of my charger is wrong with my setup? sincerely. I did not wire a perko/bluesea switch. in simpleton terms please :-)

are you saying that it is preferred to have the batteries "permentaly" seperated during charging routines. I get the usefullness of the switch from a all off, combine position, but I guess I'm unclear what difference it makes in charging from a tender.
Old    Scott Schultz (scott76310)      Join Date: Sep 2009       02-19-2010, 7:05 AM Reply   
I have a dual bank charger and obviously would prefer to keep it dual bank and it would turn into a single bank when you put power to the 1314 so I would like to be able to disable the 1314 when charging without flipping a switch and keep it automatic. If I wanted to flip switches all the time then I wouldn't even have to install a 1314.
My thought it to install an AC relay that is connected to the ground wire of the 1314 so that when you plug the charger in and it senses the AC current it cuts the ground and disables the 1314. Wonder were I would get such a relay and if it would be safe to install in the engine compartment? Thanks for any advice!!
Old    Bruce Mac (brucemac)      Join Date: Dec 2005       02-19-2010, 7:24 AM Reply   
are you sure the 1314 is combining the two banks while you're using the charger? i take it this is not good for the batteries if it is? that's what i guess i don't quite understand. when i come home from a long weekend and the stereo bank is pretty drained, it takes at least a couple days for the led on the charger to turn green for the stereo bank, but it takes just an hour or so for the starting battery to turn green and stays green for the duration. so it's not like (at least that i can tell) the stereo batteries are drawing off the starting battery somehow through the 1314 at any point. i wish i understood this better. i don't want to have to keep buying new batteries all the time because i'm not doing this right.

/edit, scott i just re-read your post, and i guess i'm not sure i understand. it's early though and i haven't had any coffee yet. :-)

(Message edited by brucemac on February 19, 2010)
Old    Scott Schultz (scott76310)      Join Date: Sep 2009       02-19-2010, 7:28 AM Reply   
Well from what I understand when the 1314 senses more than 12.7?? or so volts it combines both banks so when the charger comes on it would have more than that and combine both banks, just need a way to disable it when the charger is charging.

Edit/ Bruce Mac do you have a 1314? From the way you explained your lights and if you have a 1314 maybe it is working properly. Seems like it only senses off of one of the battery post and I think the 1315 does either post so maybe if it is sensing your starting battery, once the starting battery is charged, the voltage drops back down and the 1314 disconnects the banks again and the charger only is charging the stereo bank????

(Message edited by scott76310 on February 19, 2010)
Old    Jason B (jason_b)      Join Date: Feb 2008       02-19-2010, 7:34 AM Reply   
I have ONE of my stereo bank batteries hooked up to the charging system with my starting battery. I have a cutoff by my knee that I engage when I park that connects the other 3 batteries to the stereo bank. I have the Blue Sea add-a-battery with the ACR thingy-majigg. I did this so if my start battery dies I can still easily combine the banks to start, I ALWAYS have at least one battery to power the system (prolly about 3k watts rms) and running the boat will supply power for the stereo. It's worked pretty well for me. I'm on third year with cheap Autozone deep cells and they are still at the original numbers....so far. At night I hook the stereo bank to a regular 50 amp Sears brand battery charger. It's a pita connecting them, but I had the charger so it cost me nothing.
Old    Bruce Mac (brucemac)      Join Date: Dec 2005       02-19-2010, 7:35 AM Reply   
hmmmm, my tender only puts out 1.25A per bank, so maybe it never combines because of that then and i'm good (although not ideal at 1.25A).

i guess i just want to make sure i'm not screwing up my batts.
Old    Brian (factorykitted)      Join Date: Jul 2009       02-19-2010, 8:56 AM Reply   
EDIT:

Im running a 5000 watt rms set up in my new boat with two Interstates for cranking and three Kinetik 1400 HC dedicated to the stereo.
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       02-19-2010, 9:29 AM Reply   
There are real and multiple protective benefits to an VSR beyond convenience. I don't think throwing a switch is an issue when its done simultaneously with plugging in an AC cord. However, all these functions can be controlled automatically thereby eliminating all manual functions. Its just that the scheme gets decidedly more complex and most people are already struggling with many of these concepts. Using the DC output of a charger to trigger a relay is a mistake. This would serve to bias a very delicate read and react charger function and there is no guarantee that the relay will operate reliably off an AC charger output. BTW, when I mentioned using a dual battery Perko switch to perform three functions in support of a VSR and AC charging, I probably needed to make it clearer that the switch is used and wired in an atypical manner to perform operations other than those the switch was originally designed for. Another confusing point is that people see 3-bank chargers that are routinely wired to three separate batteries that are in series to drive a trolling motor. There are no disconnect or isolation switches even though the charger maintains isolated functions for each individual battery. The difference is that the series circuit is not closed unless by the trolling motor as its turned on. This is substantially different from paralleled banks which must be isolated for AC charging.

David
Earmark Marine
Old    Bruce Mac (brucemac)      Join Date: Dec 2005       02-19-2010, 12:02 PM Reply   
hey brian, sorry i didn't mean to barf all over your thread.

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