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Old    Tuneman (tuneman)      Join Date: Mar 2002       01-21-2010, 7:19 PM Reply   
Here's what I think would make a cool, innovative wakeboard boat:

Take out the V-drive and put in a pod for efficiency, like that Mercruiser Zeus counter-rotating prop system. Then do dual rudders, like Epic, so that baby really turns.

Next, do a touch screen display, like Tige, only make the screen much larger so you can watch videos no matter where you are in the boat.

Finally, make it electric, zero emmisions. Use lithium batteries so the thing can go for like 10 hours on a charge. Then have a standard plug-in and/or an external diesel generator that can charge the whole system in an hour.

That would be sweet.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-21-2010, 7:47 PM Reply   
How old are you?
Old    Jake williams (oldskooler)      Join Date: Jan 2010       01-22-2010, 4:35 AM Reply   
Or, a 1000 jiggawatts and a flux capacitor!

Old    Cody (loudontn)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-22-2010, 5:38 AM Reply   
And that concludes our lesson kids: drugs are bad.
Old    Ken Toby (towboat_222)      Join Date: Feb 2007       01-22-2010, 6:40 AM Reply   
Nothing $500,000.00 wont take care of.
Old    J D (jeff_mn)      Join Date: Jul 2009       01-22-2010, 7:05 AM Reply   
haha. the have no idea who they are running their mouths to
Old    Rob.B (rbeckei)      Join Date: May 2007       01-22-2010, 7:08 AM Reply   
Jeff- Explain please!
Old    Tim C (lifetimewarranty)      Join Date: Oct 2008       01-22-2010, 7:10 AM Reply   
Will it have cup holders?
Old    BLAIR BARHAM (jonblarc7)      Join Date: Jul 2006       01-22-2010, 7:22 AM Reply   
Only if it has a rope winder.
Old    Peter T (deltawake)      Join Date: Sep 2004       01-22-2010, 7:25 AM Reply   
Perhaps a small nuclear reactor to power the whole thing.
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       01-22-2010, 7:30 AM Reply   
I've always been an advocate of a pod drive wake boat. It would just be hard to trailer, and most wake boat owners trailer there boat.
Old    Tre (tre)      Join Date: Jul 2002       01-22-2010, 7:36 AM Reply   
first, tuneman's posts are always well thought out and informative. Those of you making fun of his post need to chill out.

second, what is a "pod drive"?
Old    Tre (tre)      Join Date: Jul 2002       01-22-2010, 7:44 AM Reply   
Ok, I looked up the Zeus Pod drive system on the internet. very cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vwifTpXco4

tuneman, it looks like a boat with the zeus pod drive does not need rudders. I'm wondering how you can have a pod drive and rudders?
Old    Aaron (alindquist)      Join Date: Mar 2004       01-22-2010, 7:47 AM Reply   
I would htink he means somthing like the Volvo IPS, I didn't know merc made one. Kind of suprised nobody is puting these in smaller boats other than the trailer issue.
http://www.boatingbay.com/features/resources/features/images/volvoips/Volvo_Penta_IPS_side.jpg
Old    Tim C (lifetimewarranty)      Join Date: Oct 2008       01-22-2010, 7:54 AM Reply   
What about bow rise - I would think that would be a pretty critical issue with our style of boats (at least it is for me). I love how my boat has almost no rise when accelerating. I cringe watching runabouts take off and they can't see for like a minute...(well, almost)

That is one of the direct drive/v-drive benefits.

Plus, the attitude of the entire boat is affected at speed when your prop is angled like they are.

I'm not sure if the pods would work at the same prop angles... Definitely not hating, tre and tuneman. I like the ideas.
Old    Tuneman (tuneman)      Join Date: Mar 2002       01-22-2010, 8:00 AM Reply   
Thanks for the compliments, Tre and Jeff. I love some of the comments:-D Bigshow, you had me rofl.

BTW, this post was verrry well thought out.
Old    Tre (tre)      Join Date: Jul 2002       01-22-2010, 8:02 AM Reply   
I was wondering about bow rise too. It looks like the prop is under the boat as opposed to behind the boat like a typical I/O. It is not as far under the boat as an inboard though. I don't know if that would result in more bow rise then an inboard but less then an I/O? I also wonder if that setup can be reversed (kind of like a v-drive) where the engine is "backward" and the pod drive is under the boat in front of the engine. This would result in the same placement of the prop as an inboard (if possible).
Old    Jeff Baker (innov8)      Join Date: May 2005       01-22-2010, 8:39 AM Reply   
Tuneman I know exactly what you are talking about.
Old    Tuneman (tuneman)      Join Date: Mar 2002       01-22-2010, 9:26 AM Reply   


Upload
Old    Jeff Baker (innov8)      Join Date: May 2005       01-22-2010, 9:37 AM Reply   
I like the Hole Shot remarkably fast!!
Old    Sinko (sinkoumn)      Join Date: Jan 2007       01-22-2010, 9:48 AM Reply   
I just don't want to see the MSRP on it
Old    Billy (woreout)      Join Date: Aug 2006       01-22-2010, 10:59 AM Reply   
Sounds like "Too much Bling" haha
...and we all know thats a bad thing.
Old    Steveô (kingskrew)      Join Date: May 2004       01-22-2010, 11:19 AM Reply   
Upload
Upload
Upload
Old    Sinko (sinkoumn)      Join Date: Jan 2007       01-22-2010, 11:25 AM Reply   
21ft?
Old    Jeff Baker (innov8)      Join Date: May 2005       01-22-2010, 11:26 AM Reply   
That didn't take long.
Old    Jeff Baker (innov8)      Join Date: May 2005       01-22-2010, 11:28 AM Reply   
Hull length 22'2
Beam 8'6
Weight 5800lbs
seating 10 people comfortably.
Old    Steveô (kingskrew)      Join Date: May 2004       01-22-2010, 11:29 AM Reply   
Upload
Upload
Upload
Old    Tre (tre)      Join Date: Jul 2002       01-22-2010, 11:31 AM Reply   
Why the need for the rudders when the POD drives can turn?
Old    Jeff Baker (innov8)      Join Date: May 2005       01-22-2010, 11:36 AM Reply   
"Why the need for the rudders when POD drives can turn?"

Vectorizes thrust for tight, controlled handling.
Old    Sinko (sinkoumn)      Join Date: Jan 2007       01-22-2010, 11:41 AM Reply   
Why the short sun deck with the molded in swim platform...
Old    Jeff Baker (innov8)      Join Date: May 2005       01-22-2010, 12:01 PM Reply   
This boat is the new Epic 21 se SPORT boat, not Wake Boat.

It is a brand new boat from Epic, so not to much info out yet.

They have one on display/for sale at the boat show this weekend in Germany.

This boat will do great in places like Germany, do to the high cost of fuel ECT.
Old    J D (jeff_mn)      Join Date: Jul 2009       01-22-2010, 12:09 PM Reply   
Where are all the haters now?
Old    Tim C (lifetimewarranty)      Join Date: Oct 2008       01-22-2010, 12:16 PM Reply   
Strange that epic doesn't list this boat.

In fact, a google search turned up nothing.

Not that I was ever a hater, Jeff, (just having a little fun...)...

But, I am still wondering about the prop direction and if that means anything for us. I contest that it does.

BTW - I think that epic is pretty cool, but then again, I was at the forefront of hybrid technology on a wake boat, so I obviously love Epic.
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       01-22-2010, 12:33 PM Reply   
The boat look's familiar. It looks like a older Geko. I love the look of the orignal Epic. Any work on when the E-23's with be in full swing and a price?
Old    Jeff Baker (innov8)      Join Date: May 2005       01-22-2010, 12:51 PM Reply   
Lifetime Epic has some pics on Facebook.

I have some info, but not to much at this point, but as I get more, I will post the info.

G The 23e is in production, from what I understand, Epic had quite a few pre orders on the 23e, so they are getting those orders filled first.
Price on the 23e and 21se will be around 150,000.

Epic will have a new boat in the Wakeboat lineup as well for 2010 in V and E models.

Epic has a lot going down in 2010.

I will post more as I find out more.
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       01-22-2010, 12:55 PM Reply   
That hull looks alot like my old bayliner wake challenger or ski challenger! Great wake for an older v-drive. Upload
Old    Joe Mc D (jmcdanie)      Join Date: Oct 2009       01-22-2010, 1:05 PM Reply   
I think the idea of batteries is great for the environment and as someone stated also a good alternative to gas in places that have high petroleum prices.

My only negative thought on the battery idea is that they go bad after a certain amount of time. If they go bad every 5 years (like a Trojan Golf Cart battery...just to compare), how much would it cost just to replace the batteries?

The reason this comes to mind is because this past year, my golf cart batteries died and I had to spend over $700 for 6 new ones when I only paid $1500 for the golf cart 4 years earlier.

In all reality, I guess if you can afford a 150k boat, you are not worried about the price of batteries in the long run.
Old    Travis Q (motogod77)      Join Date: Aug 2008       01-22-2010, 2:20 PM Reply   
That's a Gekko Revo 6.7 - horrible boat - great idea
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       01-22-2010, 4:20 PM Reply   
TQ gets the prize!
(it's a Gekko t-shirt of EPIC proportions) I'm sure they'll send it out soon...
Old    David (colombiansurfer)      Join Date: Sep 2008       01-22-2010, 4:29 PM Reply   
Since Centurion makes Gekko and Epic boats in there plants, it would not surprise me that they work together on some sort of new "idea" boat.
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       01-22-2010, 4:31 PM Reply   
That is not a Zeus drive, nor a Volvo drive. I guess it would be the bottom of a stern drive leg and fixed in place. Hence the need for rudders.
Do you guys know if it's an Epic, or a European custom build that grabbed the rights to the Epic name before they were registered over there?
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-22-2010, 6:41 PM Reply   
Tuneman, seriously I thought you were maybe 8 to 12. Sorry. Is the description in the opener of a real boat?

I'd think that the batteries needed for ten hour operation would be quite large and really, really expensive. Recharging the ten hour batteries in an hour from a standard single phase 115 Vac line would take quite a while.

One horse power is 756 Watts. Letís say your zero emissions boat has a 200 hp electric motor, thatís 149 kW. If you run that engine at letís say an average load of 30% for 10 hours thatís
(149 kW)(30%)(10 Hr) = 447.6 kWh.

With 10 amp 115 Vac service you get 1.15 kWh of recharging power it would take 389 hours to recharge. With two phase 230 Vac, 30A service you have 6.9 kWh. It would take 65 hours to recharge.

The NHW10 Toyota Prius NiMH battery is rated for 1.728 kWh. It would take 259 Toyota Prius NHW10 batteries to power the boat you describe. Each one of these batteries weighs 125.5 pounds and 259 of them weigh 32,530 pounds. Clearly ballast systems have been made obsolete.

Granted NiMH is different from Lithium chemistries. Lithium is generally lighter than an equivalent NiMH battery; the energy density is maybe 4 or five times better. So take the 32,530 and divide by 5 to get a 6,506 pound lithium battery. Will Lithium batteries in a boat be safe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ypUVpwgcAA

So a Prius costs about $20,000. Letís guess that the battery cost per Prius is $5,000. So 259 * $5,000 is $1,295,000. Thatís not a boat that I can afford.

Anyone see errors in my assumptions or math?
Old    Tim C (lifetimewarranty)      Join Date: Oct 2008       01-22-2010, 7:07 PM Reply   
Geez, Show -

Now I'm sure you are NO engineer. I thought you were just having a bad day when you told me that my idea of a hybrid wake boat was silly and nonsense, but man, where do you get your math from!? (or your naysayers attitude)
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-22-2010, 7:48 PM Reply   
Lifetime, How have the hybrid boats taken over the boating industry? I think the Epic hybrid is neat but not practical.

What was the point of this post, a gee-golly a wish-boat or is it an attempt at a clever introduction of a new boat model? I have no idea.

I donít mean to be a hater but I see problems in the opening description, much in the same way that the Epic Hybrid still doesnít make sense.

Donít like my math? I'm not sure about my assumptions, what errors or suggestions do you have; any?

My brother in-law was going to buy a ďHydrogen FrogĒ water electrolyzer for his truck. ďHydrogen FrogĒ is an on line scam offering to double gas mileage by electrolyzing water and then inducting the resulting O2 and H2 in to your vehicle air intake system. Basically a perpetual motion machine and big oil conspiracy theory pitch. Well my brother in-law isnít an engineer and just didnít have tools to understand the laws of conservation and so on. He wasnít happy to hear that he couldnít get something for nothing.

So do you have the tools to show me where my reasoning and math is incorrect or are you just going to talk?
Old    Tim C (lifetimewarranty)      Join Date: Oct 2008       01-22-2010, 8:15 PM Reply   
I don't want to deal with the math right now, just saying that it looked a bit crazy.

I guess after you told me that a hybrid wakeboat was silly, then one of the most innovative wake boats made them, I have a hard time with the post.

As far as "changing" the boat market...I imagine they are changing it as much as the Prius changed the car industry...--?
Old    Brock Landers (formfunction)      Join Date: Jun 2008       01-22-2010, 8:30 PM Reply   
Mock my words,the pod drive is the future of wakeboats.Its just a matter of time and money.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-22-2010, 8:37 PM Reply   
Was silly and still is; really $150,000 for a wake boat! Then I think $100,000 for a regular new wake boat is silly.

Epic 23e - Not really changing the boat market yet.

Prius has had an impact, but it's not large. Gas prices have to go up quite a bit for a return on investment over a regular econo-car with an IC engine.

Full electric cars arenít going to be practical soon, even Toyota isnít jumping in to that market. The battery tech just isnít there yet. And again for boats, lithium and water sounds like a problem to me.
Old    Tim C (lifetimewarranty)      Join Date: Oct 2008       01-22-2010, 8:49 PM Reply   
OK, it's silly. Epic is just a "silly" company.

Oh, yeah, so is Chris Craft.
Old    Ben Holman (riverside)      Join Date: Mar 2002       01-22-2010, 10:58 PM Reply   
volvo penta has a similar system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4SNk9yGc0Q

i will shoot some pics of that epic when i am at the german boatshow tommorow.
Old    Jeff Baker (innov8)      Join Date: May 2005       01-23-2010, 7:51 AM Reply   
Motor: Liquid cooled brushless DC


Peak Power: 268hp (200kw)


Peak Torque: 664 ft/lb (900 Nm)


Peak RPM: 5000
Old    Tuneman (tuneman)      Join Date: Mar 2002       01-23-2010, 8:08 AM Reply   
Ok, gotta clear a few things up.

The MSRP for the 21se is $127k. The 23e is $150k. There will be a 21v and a 21e soon. Both are wakeboats and not Gekkos. The 21se is based on the Gekkko Revo hull.

The electric motor puts out 268hp (200 kW) and 664 ft-lb of torque. The batteries are lithium iron phosphate. The whole electric system comes from Flux Power (fluxpwr.com). Chris Anthony owns Flux and he's the guy who started Epic.

Lithium batteries require a special charger. (if you overcharge them, you get impressive fireworks). There is a plug in charger that puts out 3.3kW and is stackable, up to 9 in parallel, to put out 27kW. Reported charge time would be 2 hours.

There's also a diesel generator that can be used, puts out 45kW, and is reported to charge in 1 hour.

Battery pack is rated at 60kWh. The entire system is protected with safety interlock contactors that split the batteries up if triggered.
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       01-23-2010, 8:19 AM Reply   
tell me there is another tower option ...

But seriosuly props to epic... its the right direction and I'm happy someone is finally stepping up and changing the norm of wakeboats
Old    Tim C (lifetimewarranty)      Join Date: Oct 2008       01-23-2010, 9:03 AM Reply   
Ok, Tuneman. Now back to my original question, and probably the most important yet...Cupholders?

Just kidding. More props here to Epic.

"664 ft-lb of torque"
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-23-2010, 9:09 AM Reply   
Recharging a 60 kWh battery in two hours would be possible with the nine staked plug-ins. Note that each one of the nine is a 30 A service by itself. The total service is 270 A. I have 200 A service at my house. I could use up to six plug-in recharges and have enough energy left over to run a hand full of light bulbs. With six recharging units it would take three hours to recharge a 60 kWh battery.

The ten hour operation figure is miss-stated. At least you wonít have wakeboarding power for 10 hours, but you could take senior citizens around the lake at idle speed for quite a while.

If you wanted to operate purely off the battery for ten hours youíd spend 6 kWh per hour. Divide by 745 W/hp and you get (6 kW)/(745 W/hp) = 8 hp per hour. Lifetime, is an 8 HP ten hour boating experience what you would pay $129K for?

Ten hours green (electric) wakeboard operation would require thousands of pounds of batteries costing hundreds of thousands of dollars to millions.

A 45 kW diesel generator will provide 60 HP. Iím guessing that the generator running full throttle all the time would be enough to keep the batteries up and provide the power needed for a full day of boating. I think thatís the coolest change in the system. You could use bio-diesel in your effort to go green. Bio Diesel isnít that hard to make. Just to see how to do it my daughter and I made a liter over the holidays.

What Epic is doing is very cool but not something that is really practical. If however youíre happy with wakeboarding once a day only for an hour and under e-power then it might work for you. When I go to the lake Iím on the water a half day to a whole day.

The assertion that you could wakeboard behind an electric wake boat for ten hours and then recharge in an hour pure science fiction.
Old    Mattt (motorcitymatt)      Join Date: Feb 2007       01-23-2010, 9:28 AM Reply   
Hybird Tech is cool but, will die out to hydrogen fuel cells.

Mark myeee wordaah.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-24-2010, 7:07 AM Reply   
Fuel cells have been right around the corner since the 50s. It will be interesting to finally see them come out. As far as what I've seen the Auto companies have pushed plans back to 2015 and beyond. What is blue oval doing?
Old    Tuneman (tuneman)      Join Date: Mar 2002       01-24-2010, 11:07 AM Reply   
Hydrogen is very difficult to make and not very practical now. If we had more nuclear power plants, we could solve some limitations there. However, I don't see hydrogen power ever becoming a practical fuel source. It's more of a political talking point than a practicality.

There is actually an energy source that blows the doors off of hydrogen, hybrid or electric. It's extremely abundant and we currently have the technology to use it cleanly and efficiently. We even have the infrastructure to supply it to the public very quickly and efficiently.

It's called gasoline. Ever heard of it?
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       01-24-2010, 12:34 PM Reply   
+1 on hydrogen too difficult (costly and energy demand) right now.
Nuke powerplants are the way to go.

But yes, put hydrogen and ethanol in the same pot on the back burner on "simmer". not gonna happen anytime soon.

nuke powerplants, and nat. gas wakeboat (once we start tapping into our huge nat. gas reserves)

Props to epic for going out and trying something new, I hope they are rewarded by wakeboarders that can afford 100K+ boats but are not already loyal to mastercraft
Old    WakeMikey (wakemikey)      Join Date: Mar 2008       02-02-2010, 12:48 PM Reply   
Does this sport model have epics drop zone deep vee hull? Also how much would that type of prop draft? Makes me think of my old i/o except without the tilt up/down feature. That old boat drafted about 6-10" more than my inboard.

It would be amazing to boat with no gasoline engine smell or noise.
Old    Jeff Baker (innov8)      Join Date: May 2005       02-02-2010, 1:46 PM Reply   
No, no drop zone deep V on the 21se, but the 23E and the 21E will have the drop zone tech and they are hybrid.

http://23e.epicboats.com/

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