Articles
   
       
       
Pics/Video
   
       
       
Shop
Search
 
 
 
 
 
Home   Articles   Pics/Video   Gear   Wake 101   Events   Community   Forums   Classifieds   Contests   Shop   Search
WAKE WORLD HOME
Email Password
Go Back   WakeWorld > Non-Wakeboarding Discussion

Share 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       12-22-2009, 3:57 PM Reply   
on the most controversial subject I know of...religion. I wrote it awhile back, but never asked anyone to read it because I didn't want to be judged. It's kind of long, but if you have time to kill feel free to tell me what you think. Note: not looking to start a religious debate.

http://bensreligiousviews.blogspot.com/2009/11/bens-view-on-religion.html
Old    E Double U (three6ty)      Join Date: Feb 2004       12-22-2009, 4:49 PM Reply   
WOW!!! We must be Twins separated at Birth!! I couldnt have written down my views any different than yours.
I completely agree with the Good Person Religion!!! Im all for that!!

I have this discussion with my Wife a few times a year. She is Mormon and I am Agnostic Or now I will say I am part of the Good Person religion.
Our kids are being raised Mormon and I even go to church more than most so called relegious people. I go to support my wife and kids and what they teach, although different and beyond the norm, is nothing but trying to be the best person they can be on earth. I can not argue with that especially if it helps my kids think twice when it comes to choosing right or wrong.

It always is an interesting discussion and me being more of a analytical person I need to see facts and figures and not base things on Faith.

For me that was well written
Old     (fogey)      Join Date: Mar 2002       12-22-2009, 8:13 PM Reply   
Actually, Benjamin, you do have faith in a god. And you know him quite well, since you have made yourself into a god, including passing judgment on others based on your preferences and standards. That means, of course, that you've also established a religion; it consists of whatever you think is right.

It's one of the most common stories of mankind. In fact, there's a book on this very topic. You could read about where this leads in Genesis and several of the psalms.
Old    Flight007 (poser007)      Join Date: Nov 2004       12-22-2009, 10:47 PM Reply   
Ben, that was a good blog, you write very well. Just wanted to clear some things up though. If your Sunday school teacher was stumped on the flat earth round earth question, then she didn't know her Bible. Where this whole (the Bible teaches a flat earth thing started I will never know) Isaiah 40:22 clearly states the sphere or circle of the earth. The Bible had it right the whole time. If you could point me to the scripture that talks about the earth being flat I'd like to see it.

Another problem is the whole "I just think I will be a good person thinking". This doesn't work. While you might be able to do a few nice things here and there, the person who we really are on the inside is not good. Let me ask you a few questions,

1. Have you ever told a lie?
2. Have you ever took something that didn't belong to you?
3. Have you ever looked upon a women with lust?

My last question is this......If you answered yes to any of the above questions (and I am assuming you did to all 3) What does that make you? Let me answer that for you. It makes you a lying thieving lustful person. Not just you, me and everyone else on this planet.

Nothing you nor I can ever do would ever be good enough. That's where Jesus came in. He took on all the sins of man Past Present and future, he was the only one who lived a perfect life...he was the only one who could be our substitute so that we could be forgiven. Christianity was never meant to be a religion, it is a relationship with Jesus Christ. He redeemed you to himself and all you have to do is accept his free gift. It's not about being good, or your acts of good works, it's about accepting Gods free gift of salvation. When you start cultivating a real relationship with the God of the universe, you start to take on his characteristics. It's Gods love in us not our own that makes us good. Hope that helps.

I think you have talent as a writer, keep it up.

Just some things to think about.
Old    Manzo (zo1)      Join Date: Aug 2002       12-23-2009, 5:33 AM Reply   
Good job ben. Well written, the amount of common sense is so staggering you brought the resident televangalists out of hiding.
Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       12-23-2009, 5:55 AM Reply   
E double U, it’s nice to see someone agrees with me. If my dad ever got a hold of that blog he’d spray me down with a super soaker filled with holy water. I can relate to you going to church with your family. I am much the same as I go to church when I visit my parents to support them.

Flight, I'm a big fan of your posts. 99% of the time you make points that I agree with. I just don't agree with much of what you had to say about the bible, mostly because I've heard the same thing you said many different ways over and over without any facts to back it up. All I'm trying to say, is if there is a "hell" and I get sent there for not believing in something that didn't have hard facts to prove its legitimacy despite trying my best to be the best person I can be...well, someone better bury me with some marshmallows and hot dogs.

And yes, I have looked at women in lust. It's part of our natural reproductive instinct
Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       12-23-2009, 5:56 AM Reply   
thanks Manzo!
Old    Jerome Lemoine (skinnyj)      Join Date: Jul 2008       12-23-2009, 6:16 AM Reply   
Great blog! Very close to my life and my views.

And just for a bonus...

Jeff thinks you are a god!! Unfortunately, poser thinks you are a "lying thieving lustful" god. Thank the lord, Jeff and poser didn't pass any judgement based on their beliefs. Too funny.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-23-2009, 7:43 AM Reply   
I don't see anything wrong with inventing your own religion. Most of the world has been doing it for thousands of years. God is where you find him.
Old    John Gardner (roverjohn)      Join Date: Dec 2007       12-23-2009, 9:16 AM Reply   
Or, God is where you put him.
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       12-23-2009, 10:06 AM Reply   
Lots of people seem compelled to try to put their version into other peoples' lives.

I can't help but hear that classic condescending Southern drawl of the televangelist in my head when I read cyber-proselytizing.
Old    Melissa (psych3060)      Join Date: Sep 2002       12-23-2009, 11:09 AM Reply   
I just find it a bit ironic that Flight lectures about lusting over women when his profile pic shows him with several bikini clad women.

Benjamin, good for you for putting your thoughts out there for others to read.
Old    GD (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       12-23-2009, 11:32 AM Reply   
Nice use of your brain Ben.

This subject is a natural thing for the thinking human to ponder. We will forever want the comfort and control that religions provide. Your curiosity, my curiosity and everyone else's curiosity is the reason why religions will forever be part of our existence.

Man has refined and honed religion to grab and tug at man in all the right places. Religion gives man a box to live in. A floor to allow us to stand tall. Walls to give us limits within our lives. And, a ceiling that provides a promise for tomorrow.

If we stop for a minute, look up and imagine that there is this all loving all knowing GOD reaching down to us, we find a comforting feeling. This feeling is why we believe. It feels good so we do it.

Individually, I see no harm in religion. Collectively, as we see around the globe, we get the good and the bad.
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       12-23-2009, 12:28 PM Reply   
Wow, a lot of religion opinions out there!

The "be a good person" religion is interesting. It is definitely intriguing. We like it because we feel in control. We think it is a fair way of ultimately judging "good" folks from "bad" folks. Plus, we can draw our own morality line which is nice. Everybody thinks their own behavior is enough resulting in a cutoff line that falls just beneath them. This also results in a standard that is forever changing depending on whom you ask.

The problem is how good is good enough? What if your standard isn't ultimately the standard by which we will all be judged? What if, contrary to what makes sense to us, we can't earn or work our way towards being found in good standing? What if being found "good" was something that is freely given to us that we don't have to sweat and toil our entire lives just to hope that we've done enough?

The problem is we will always fall short. How can you ever be certain that you've done enough? By having a good to bad ration better than 1.0? Please look up Romans 3:23. Then read Romans 6:23. That's the bad news. The story doesn't stop there though. Look up Ephesians 2:8-10. I would love to hear thoughts on these verses and what you all think they mean...if you search them honestly.
Old    Big D (bigdtx)      Join Date: Feb 2005       12-23-2009, 12:54 PM Reply   
tl;dr
Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       12-23-2009, 12:58 PM Reply   
"How can you ever be certain that you've done enough?" -By doing the best you can

See, this is what I've been frustrated with my entire life. You question religion in the slightest and you are told passages and quotes from the bible. No one ever tries to prove the validity of the bible itself...they just repeat what's inside of it.
Old    Flight007 (poser007)      Join Date: Nov 2004       12-23-2009, 1:05 PM Reply   
Just wanted to put another .02 cents in. Per Melissa's quote on my profile pic, all those women were married, there husbands were behind the camera in the bow of my boat. The other was my girl friend at the time. Just thought it was a cool pic.

On the quote saying I was condemning ben, where was I doing that? i was simply pointing out the Bible says the earth is round not flat. I also stated I thought ben was a good writer in respect to his writing skills. Whenever I make a comment in the religious realm, I do so with scripture in mind. So I am not hear to argue my case, I am simply quoting scriptural truths. You have a free will, choose what you want to believe. As for me, I choose Jesus Christ.
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       12-23-2009, 1:13 PM Reply   
Ben - When you believe the bible is the true authority, then that is what is going to inform your opinions and beliefs. To me that is more meaningful than various random opinions of man.

I don't think anybody (well, I'll speak for myself) is shying away from proving the validity of the bible. That is an entirely different discussion and topic. I present my thoughts here assuming that it is known I have researched and fully beleive in the authority, accuracy, and validity of the scriptures. To me this is extremely important but not a topic I feel has to be reintroduced every time some verses are posted. If you wish we can pursue that further, but I was trying to address the topic at hand...which was your blog and your belief in the "good person" religion.

Can you at least read those verses and let me know what you think they mean? Forget for a moment about the crutch of your upbringing, the dead church you might have attended, the way religion was presented to you, etc. and look at what the Word says.
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       12-23-2009, 1:28 PM Reply   

quote:

Forget for a moment about the crutch of your upbringing, the dead church you might have attended, the way religion was presented to you, etc. and look at what the Word says.




That's the Christian spirit! LOL

Ben is on topic - he has stated that his belief in the good person religion is based at least partially on the lack of hard evidence of the legitimacy of any particular religion.

I like having Dan around, but he exhibits irony in many fun ways on this board. There's the complaining about not getting enough unemployment, and then a week later is asking for advice on which dirtbike to buy for his kid. Then he posts about almost getting killed on his bike, and two weeks later he posts a vid of himself squidding thru a neighborhood at 70. Laugh a minute, I tell ya.
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       12-23-2009, 1:29 PM Reply   
And some background...I used to ascribe to the good person religion as well. These verses helped shed some light on my flawed logic.
Old    C.I.E..... Evan (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       12-23-2009, 1:31 PM Reply   
The worst acts in history have been justified by someones interpretation of the bible.
Old    Clubjoe (clubjoe)      Join Date: Sep 2005       12-23-2009, 1:37 PM Reply   
Ben- Looked like a well thought out blog. I get more annoyed by the people who claim to have a VIP pass into heaven because they believe the "right religion" over the non-believer who trys to do right by everyone.

Anyone ever try to get out of a parking lot on Sunday? What happened to all those nice people that were just in the building?

BTW Daniel, I didn't think your post condemned anyone but was rather another valid opinion that you included yourself as part of.... I like that you stick to your conviction. It's a lot easier to not accept the responsibilty that faith carries.

Hey put in a good word for me, cuz I'm prolly gonna be in the hell hot tub on the girl lusting alone.....
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       12-23-2009, 1:37 PM Reply   
Trace - How was that offensive? Please explain.
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       12-23-2009, 1:43 PM Reply   
Evan - Maybe to some extent that could be true. Is that the fault of the bible or to the person's misuse of it?
Old    Ted Dreaver (dreevs)      Join Date: Jul 2002       12-23-2009, 1:49 PM Reply   
A man graduates high school / college and choses a career with a corporation. Years pass and he's not happy and tries another corporation. Again - years go by and he knows that this corporate life is just not his gig.

He decides to start his own business doing something that he loves and guess what - he lives life happy because he is living according to his own terms, dreams and aspirations. No one but himself is in the way anymore.

Some people can sign up for the corporate life and be told what to do and ride it out or become successful and they like it.

Some people just hate a corporate style life so they strike out on their own and make it happen for themselves.

Everyone is different. Big religion (the "corporations") really works for some people while it drives other people nuts.

Live life according to you and what makes you happy. I liked your blog and your views.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       12-23-2009, 1:54 PM Reply   
Jerome don't be silly... Jeff and Flight don't have "beliefs" - they have the truth!!!
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       12-23-2009, 1:55 PM Reply   
Maybe not offensive, but certainly judgmental - crutch, dead church, etc.
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       12-23-2009, 2:07 PM Reply   
I apologize. Dead church isn't judgemental to me but rather the type of place (based on his feedback) that he went to church growing up. This isn't a negative reflection on him at all. If he says it hurt his feelings I will humbly ask his forgiveness.

I will explain what I mean by dead church when I can post from a computer.
Old     (fogey)      Join Date: Mar 2002       12-23-2009, 3:24 PM Reply   
"The worst acts in history have been justified by someones interpretation of the bible."

Does saying things like this help make you feel justified in your own prejudices? If so, it might be worthwhile to think about facts instead of accepting the liberal Zeitgeist without reflecting on, well, that history you mention.

Or is it your position that Hitler justified his brutal genocide of Jews, Gypsies, and others by referring to the Bible? Did Stalin use the Bible as a basis for murdering between 4 and 10 million people? What about the 1-3 million dead in Pol Pot's "killing fields" - was he also motivated by the Bible? How about the genocide in Rwanda? Or the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo? What about the war between Iran and Iraq, where 12 year-olds were put on the front lines? How about Sadam's use of nerve gas on women and children in his own country? Did he rely on the "Good Book" to justify this savagery?

Is it your position that these atrocities were motivated by interpretations of the Bible? Some say that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were by far the most heinous acts in history. Do you have a recollection of Pres. Truman referencing the Bible when he explained why he authorized these bombings?

Now, are Christians perfect? Or course not. Have people attempted to justify truly terrible deeds by referencing the Bible? Absolutely.

But Christian faith also has regained its focus on Christ as the church increasingly has become a separate entity from governments. In the last several centuries, far more people have suffered terrible deeds motivated by other beliefs, or especially non-belief, than by Christianity. Moreover, charity motivated and organized through Christian principles has helped many, many more destitute, homeless, and hungry people than charity based on any other set of principles.
Old    Barry Waste (barry)      Join Date: Apr 2002       12-23-2009, 3:37 PM Reply   
Wes,
What do you have?
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       12-23-2009, 3:38 PM Reply   
Some say that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were by far the most heinous acts in history. Do you have a recollection of Pres. Truman referencing the Bible when he explained why he authorized these bombings?

No need as the victims weren't white.

But Christian faith also has regained its focus on Christ as the church increasingly has become a separate entity from governments

Amen, let's hope it stays that way, for both the sake of the church and the rest of us. This is one of the reasons I find the theocratic push in this country so ironic.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       12-23-2009, 3:40 PM Reply   
Barry, you've met me - you know what I have! A bunch of books and a slight lithsp.
Old     (fogey)      Join Date: Mar 2002       12-23-2009, 5:41 PM Reply   
"...for the sake of the church and the rest of us."

Wes, we're in TOTAL agreement on this point.

Happy Holidays!
Old    Flight007 (poser007)      Join Date: Nov 2004       12-23-2009, 6:25 PM Reply   
Ok when I read Traces post I spit out my food and my diet coke went up my nose. Not that I need to explain but here it goes. The whole why am I not getting unemployment thing was a tongue and cheek comment I just through out there because I was a little agitated at the time. As far as buying my kid a dirt bike, I did with money I had saved, I never said I was destitute.

Yes I nearly was killed at an intersection when someone ran a red light. Does that mean I shouldn't ride my ZX6 anymore? Of course not. Anyway I have to go in the kitchen now and grab some cleaner, there is coke all over my desk, thanks for the laugh Trace.
Old    Blabelmooch (blabel)      Join Date: Jul 2001       12-23-2009, 6:32 PM Reply   
Excellent post Benjamin. Great read.
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       12-23-2009, 8:28 PM Reply   
I'd like to put my hand up to follow the principal of the "good person religion". I don't have a problem with organised religion as long as it does no harm but some of the hypocrisy gets my goat.

Good blog Ben, what's the next topic?
Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       12-24-2009, 5:54 AM Reply   
I got kicked out of the library yesterday for moving all the Bibles to the fiction section...lol..totally kidding :-)



Eubanks, I read the passages...and I've read them before. I was forced to study the bible for 9 years. The bible is an interesting book.

Thanks to all those who liked it. For those who didn't agree...I respect the fact you stand up for what you believe in...I can appreciate that.

Next topic? I'm not a writer...don't know what else to write about. Maybe write about how unimpressed I am with our current administration, but there's already enough out there about that. I could write about hot chicks getting with fat ugly guys only because they have a nice car and money...that annoys the hell out of me
Old    Ted Dreaver (dreevs)      Join Date: Jul 2002       12-24-2009, 6:43 AM Reply   
Thaats a topic that always confused me. Hotties with notties.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-24-2009, 8:41 AM Reply   
The problem is how good is good enough?

This is a question that isn't even answered by religion. We need to hurry up and pray to God that the govt will deny giving healthcare to those in need. Times running short.
Old     (fogey)      Join Date: Mar 2002       12-24-2009, 9:03 AM Reply   
Ben, just to be clear, I don't have a problem with your non-belief. Contrary to Jerome's erroneous assumption, I don't make any judgment on that. It would be foolish to do so since the Bible makes it very clear that not everyone will believe.

What is interesting is how many offer kudos here for an intellectual approach that, based on your own well-written essay, has not progressed since grade school.

As for Anderson, his contribution is another cheap shot at those he disagrees with, and of course it has zero foundation is fact. I've followed the health care issue pretty closely, and I've never heard a single opponent refer to religion as a basis for opposing Obamacare.

But hey - if snide is all you have, then snide is all we get.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-24-2009, 9:13 AM Reply   
Of course your religion isn't the "basis" for opposing Obamacare. It's the lack of paying attention to the words of the man you worship as a God.
Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       12-24-2009, 9:28 AM Reply   
"What is interesting is how many offer kudos here for an intellectual approach that, based on your own well-written essay, has not progressed since grade school."

Jeff...not true. It has progressed, very much so. Grade school was just the first time I thought to myself "hey, this could be fictional" If I would have written other reasons for not believing it would have been a book, not a blog. I was in denial for many years for "not believing" I even thought there was something wrong with me when I was a child because everyone else around me was all about the Bible. I've just come to terms with it. I also know that other "religious" people question their own beliefs, but are too afraid to say anything about it.
Old    GD (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       12-24-2009, 10:55 AM Reply   
In my opinion, religion is obviously a total fabrication by man. What is not obvious is the question of which is a better life? Embracing the "lie" offers many benefits to the human existence. This is why it exists.
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       12-24-2009, 2:36 PM Reply   
"This is a question that isn't even answered by religion."

Not true John. I can give you the proof if you wish, but I think you know how the bible addresses this topic.

GD - How does embracing the "lie" benefit us? I don't think many people act according to what benefits human existence as a whole. I think people act on selfish means and what benefits them most? To embrace a "lie" because you think doing so benefits the human race is idiotic. If I didn't believe what the bible said I would live A LOT differently. I sure wouldn't care what people thought, about morality, about anything. I would be looking to get mine because when you're gone that's all she wrote.

}
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       12-24-2009, 2:36 PM Reply   
"This is a question that isn't even answered by religion."

Not true John. I can give you the proof if you wish, but I think you know how the bible addresses this topic.

GD - How does embracing the "lie" benefit us? I don't think many people act according to what benefits human existence as a whole. I think people act on selfish means and what benefits them most? To embrace a "lie" because you think doing so benefits the human race is idiotic. If I didn't believe what the bible said I would live A LOT differently. I sure wouldn't care what people thought, about morality, about anything. I would be looking to get mine because when you're gone that's all she wrote.

}}
Old    Flight007 (poser007)      Join Date: Nov 2004       12-24-2009, 4:10 PM Reply   
Eubanks, very well said and oozes with common sense. Even Paul said it there be no God then eat drink and be merry, Live for today. The Bible talks about a time in the tribulations period when God takes the Holy Spirit form the earth. Sin will run so rampant that the bible says for if he didn't shorten those days nobody would be left. our inner man wants to do what isn't right, right from the start. If any of us on this thread took a good look at ourselves and our motives and took inventory of our thoughts and motives, we would realize our need for a savior. Let me give an example, yesterday My brother and I drove 30 miles to meet a family in need. We gave them several hundred dollars, food and clothing we had helped raise. But the greatest gift we gave them was not the money,food or clothes although we know they need those things. The greatest thing was love. We prayed for her cancer and gave her hope. We didn't just drop off the supplies and leave. We stayed we listened and we gave encouragement. Thats what Christ does, he loves us and cares for us, even though we have this sinful nature. Most on this thread make God out to be this awful Diety in the sky looking for who he can nail for being bad.

The opposite is true, he has his arms open wide, looking for people who will say yes to him, and live a more abundant life, a life not lived for ourselves, but selflessly giving our lives a ransom so that others can be set free.

Anyone who is of the opinion that we humans as a whole are good, only need to look at Tiger Woods to realize we aren't.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       12-24-2009, 5:14 PM Reply   
Wow eubanks, at least you're honest. Given your statements I guess it's a good thing you and those like you feel compelled by a book to not behave the way you'd like to.
Old     (fogey)      Join Date: Mar 2002       12-24-2009, 6:25 PM Reply   
"It's the lack of paying attention to the words of the man you worship as a God."

John, I love it when an atheistic liberal who has not seriously studied the Bible tries to tell me what it says. And the curious thing is that your interpretation of a book you reject as nonsense always happens to match liberal orthodoxy. Hypocritical and hilarious. Hey, you scored a two-fer!

Now, as a matter of fact, I do help those in need, routinely contributing my time, talents, and treasure to their benefit. But I don't recall any Bible passage commanding believers to give money to corrupt, greedy, lying, inept politicians so they can arrogate even more more power to misuse for their own gain. But if you have citation, be sure to let me know, okay?

OTOH, John, I'm encouraged by your eager desire to have me live my life by Jesus's commands. So, I'm sure you'll have no objection to my following up on his clear edict to "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." What's your home address? I have some materials I feel compelled to send you!
Old    GD (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       12-24-2009, 9:43 PM Reply   
Eubanks, what part of what I wrote made you think I was referring to the human race as a whole?


quote:

"I sure wouldn't care what people thought, about morality, about anything"




Wow. You sure do NEED religion! I choose to not believe and I still care about everything I do.
Old    Roddyrod (wakeslife)      Join Date: Jul 2005       12-25-2009, 1:17 AM Reply   
Nice post Ben.

Just something to think about; this 'good person' theory that you break down in the last paragraph seems to have striking similarities to a little something Christians are familiar with called the Golden Rule - "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". I guess calling it 'Karma' is a way for non-believers to package that ideal up and practice it in a realm not constrained by the 'laws' of Christianity. For me, I like to believe in the validity of Christ's word when laying down this fundamental rule to live by...
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       12-25-2009, 1:27 AM Reply   
"Just something to think about; this 'good person' theory that you break down in the last paragraph seems to have striking similarities to a little something Christians are familiar with called the Golden Rule - "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". I guess calling it 'Karma' is a way for non-believers to package that ideal up and practice it in a realm not constrained by the 'laws' of Christianity. For me, I like to believe in the validity of Christ's word when laying down this fundamental rule to live by..."

Roddy your take on the history of the golden rule is pretty entertaining. Reminds me of the onion's report on creation:

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/sumerians_look_on_in_confusion_as
Old    Roddyrod (wakeslife)      Join Date: Jul 2005       12-25-2009, 1:37 AM Reply   
This thread is messing with my head
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-25-2009, 6:56 AM Reply   
Jeff... No worries, since I don't believe in the supernatural I also don't believe there are any ramifications to being a hypocrite in your own religion. You are free to cherry pick and create your own your religion with impunity. Treat it like a cafeteria plan.
Old     (fogey)      Join Date: Mar 2002       12-25-2009, 7:01 AM Reply   
"Wow. You sure do NEED religion! I choose to not believe and I still care about everything I do."

"Wow eubanks, at least you're honest. Given your statements I guess it's a good thing you and those like you feel compelled by a book to not behave the way you'd like to."

It's funny watching atheists criticize Eubanks when in fact he's telling a key truth about their beliefs that they're unwilling to examine - or to admit.

If there is no god, then there is no "Truth," and there is no "Right" or "Wrong." What's left for atheists is nothing more than conflicting opinion on these matters, and the only intellectually honest philosophy is existentialism. Any other approach is founded, at some level, on a belief on man's innate goodness. So, atheists, are you ready to take the locks off all your doors and leave your keys in the car? Didn't think so.

Anyone who lives in an existential world and does not seek to maximize his own gain, without regard to others, is either a deluded patsy for those who do see the world clearly, or a fool.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       12-25-2009, 10:51 AM Reply   
So in Jeff's world:

rejecting the authority of the bible = atheism

That's a bit arrogant don't you think?

In my mom's little town in Texas, everyone leaves their doors unlocked and keys in the car. Why are the comfortable doing that? Is it because everyone known everyone and so everyone is everyone's neighbor? Or is it because the town is full of Jeffs and Eubanks who don't steal simply because they are afraid of being spanked by an invisible cosmic father figure who has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning torture and anguish, where he will send you to suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!






BUT HE LOVES YOU!!! He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o
00:35
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       12-25-2009, 11:31 AM Reply   
Just love it. Wes already threw out the race card and referring to liberals as having books (back to the ol liberal crutch that liberals are hated for been intellectuals mem.). Got to love how predictable people are in their bias and bigotry.

kind of interesting this kid blogs on something he does not believe in? Seems a little odd. I pretty much don't spend any of my day worrying about things I don't "believe" in.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       12-25-2009, 11:38 AM Reply   
Also, John.

I don't believe the bible speaks of giving to government. As a Christian, I have the ability to use my intellect (Wes does not seem to believe in intellect outside of liberal dogma) to determine that government run any thing is a waste of money and nothing they are proposing will actually cut costs. Common sense dictates that cost will rise because they items that contribute to cost are not limited. Interesting you lambast others for not wanting to participate in this farce of Government healthcare and complain that your costs are high. Why are your costs so high?
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       12-25-2009, 11:42 AM Reply   
Race card, lol? Rod do you think that at any point ever in history there were decisions made where race was a factor? You don't think nonwhites in this country faced racism 60 years ago? You don't think that Japanese Canadian internment and subsequent decisions wrt property rights were racially motivated? Are you ignorant or just a liar?

I never said anything about 1) me being a liberal, 2) liberals being intellectual (or the only intellectuals), 3) myself or liberals being hated. Do you just keep poisoning your mind on DU and spreading it around everywhere you go?

Are you of the opinion that we should privatize the post office and the military? Or do you just say things without regard to what you actually mean?
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-25-2009, 11:53 AM Reply   
Delta, less fortunate people are never going to get proper medical care because of church donations. We have the power to use the govt to help if we choose. Regardless of how corrupt politicians are, the people still have the power to shape policy.
Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       12-25-2009, 12:01 PM Reply   
"kind of interesting this kid blogs on something he does not believe in? Seems a little odd. I pretty much don't spend any of my day worrying about things I don't "believe" in."

I don't know why you refer to me as a "kid." I'm 26, spent 4 years active duty military, 4 more in the guard in conjunction with working for engineering firm as a government contractor for the past 4 years. Is that a kid? I think of a kid as someone who still live with their parents. Seems like a cheap shot. Don't get so upset...it's ok...you're going to heaven, everything will be fine.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       12-25-2009, 12:06 PM Reply   
Don't take it too personally Ben - condescension is just Rod's MO - and if you call him on it he'll just get all butt hurt and tell you to "relax" because "it's just the internet" and you shouldn't get all bent out of shape.
Old    Benjamin (bendow)      Join Date: Sep 2005       12-25-2009, 12:10 PM Reply   
Yeah, but that's not very Christian of him to be condescending to me like that.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       12-25-2009, 12:19 PM Reply   
Don't sweat it. He's probably sitting around with Jeff and Dan trying to figure out how, if people are completely incapable of figuring out what is and isn't moral and right, they are qualified to determine that what their book says is moral and right.
Old     (fogey)      Join Date: Mar 2002       12-25-2009, 2:45 PM Reply   
Wes, you know I said nothing about the Bible in that comment. In fact, I purposefully used the small-g "god" to make it non-sectarian. The issue is the logical consequences of an atheistic worldview, not Christianity vs. something else. So, no, the comment was not arrogant.

But you used a distractor, an anecdote, and then snide remarks to avoid the issue. That's okay with me because it only proves my point that atheists typically are unwilling to face the consequences of their belief (well, actually, non-belief). It's easier, more fun, and a lot less troubling to mock those of faith.

Do you really think we all can "figure out what is and isn't moral and right"? On what basis? Do you care to tell me about the consensus we've reached on the morality of abortion? Or the death penalty? Or carrying handguns for self-defense? Someone recently said it's okay for the poor to shoplift from large chain stores but not from Mom & Pop stores, and others endorse this sense of morality - do you?

The larger question is, "Why should I even care about your 'morality'?" It's nothing but men's opinions, and I can find people who agree with me instead. Suppose some of us believe, like you, that life is short and then we're worm food. In the meantime, we want all we can get. We decide the easiest way to make a fortune is using high-pressure sales tactics to rip off the elderly.

This is a logical and philosophically-consistent response to an existential world, no? And we'll do it in a legal way. So, is there a problem?
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       12-25-2009, 3:37 PM Reply   
Jeff, you commented specifically on the responses that were made to this statement by Eubanks: "If I didn't believe what the bible said I would live A LOT differently. I sure wouldn't care what people thought, about morality, about anything. I would be looking to get mine because when you're gone that's all she wrote."

My response specifically mentioned the bible (as did the statement it was responding to).

You are the one that decided to create an entirely new question and discussion, automatically labeling those who don't recognize authority in your book as atheists. So who was using a distractor? You created a new issue/question, and then say we were in the wrong for not responding to it? Lol.

Societies constantly struggle with questions of morality. Some issues are obviously simpler and easier to deal with than others. Some more readily create division than others. Might there be some absolute standard? Sure, there might. Will we ever fully discover such an expansive code? Unlikely. Open up the bible and you can see this occurring - different societies holding to different moral standards (yet attributing them to the same god, oddly enough).

I'm not really up on the story you reference but what I heard was that it was a priest who didn't say "it was okay for the poor to shoplift" but rather called on those who were considering shoplifting to do so from large national corporations rather than mom n pop shops (so that the costs would be distributed out to all taxpayers and not harm individual shopowners). But again, I haven't had a chance to actually read up on it.

Please continue to tell me what my beliefs are... first I'm an atheist, now I believe that life is short and then we're worm food. Wonder what I'll believe tomorrow! Do be sure to let me know.

I'm comfortable with not knowing all the answers. Maybe that's where we differ - you feel compelled to buy into a belief system that answers certain questions for you - despite the multitude of other questions that system raises (ones that perhaps are more easily ignored).

It's quite clear that just because you can legally rip off elderly people doesn't make it less repugnant to do so. I wonder how many of those credit card execs are sitting in pews Sunday mornings - given the stats it's probably fair to say a lot of them! Of course, you might say (and I would wholeheartedly agree) that those types of people are not really Christians. Although, what makes one a "real" Christian? The more you think about it, if you truly believe that I (and all the other billions of misguided or simply geographically unfortunate souls like me) are going to burn eternally in a torturous hell then you should feel compelled to spend every free minute and dollar you have trying to convert people as any other purpose you put time towards in this life would be selfish.
Old    Flight007 (poser007)      Join Date: Nov 2004       12-25-2009, 3:56 PM Reply   
Merry Christmas everyone.
Old    GD (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       12-25-2009, 4:44 PM Reply   
Merry Christmas to you too.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-25-2009, 5:40 PM Reply   
"Do you really think we all can "figure out what is and isn't moral and right"? On what basis?"

The answer is so blatantly obvious that explaining it to someone who "needs to be told" is bound to be met with defiant displays of ignorance.
Old    Paul (paulsmith)      Join Date: Mar 2002       12-25-2009, 5:44 PM Reply   
So true, John. So true.
Old     (fogey)      Join Date: Mar 2002       12-25-2009, 8:31 PM Reply   
"You are the one that decided to create an entirely new question and discussion...."

Nope. Benjamin kicked this off with an essay explaining that he does not believe in god. Eubanks made a statement about life without god, which was on-topic. You and GD responded critically. I elaborated on the point Eubanks made. Still on-topic. I've continued to point out the consequences of an atheistic world-view - or at least I have, while you and others have chosen not to respond to the issue.

And that's okay - no one here has any obligation to discuss the implications of existentialism. In truth, it's not very popular, and it's not very much fun. But a refusal to address the issue makes the facile criticisms of faith (Christian or otherwise) that routinely pop up here look pretty shallow.

"I'm comfortable with not knowing all the answers. Maybe that's where we differ...." As I've said before, the more I learn the more I understand how many answers I don't have. I'm in good company, as Billy Graham has made a similar statement.

"...if you truly believe that I...[am] going to burn eternally in a torturous hell, then you should feel compelled to spend every free minute and dollar you have trying to convert people...."

First of all, I don't know if you're saved but in a period of running from God. If you have not yet received salvific faith, I don't know what the future holds in store for you. As for Hell, I don't presume to think I know all the means of salvation my infinite God has devised. However, I do know what is recorded in the Bible on this point, and it doesn't look too promising for those who reject God here on earth. You are responsible for your choices, not me.

My understanding of Christian theology is that believers are called to plant seeds by spreading the Gospel, and it is the work of the Holy Spirit to nurture those seeds into conviction/conversion. I assume you have heard the Gospel, and what happens next is between you and the Holy Spirit.

I will defend my faith, but that's not the same thing as trying to argue people into submission. I believe that God wants witnesses, but he doesn't need attorneys to argue his case.

BTW, if you do in fact believe in god(s) and an afterlife, I apologize for presumptively misstating your position.
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       12-25-2009, 8:58 PM Reply   
No, Eubanks did not make a statement about life without god, he made a statement about not believing what the bible says. Again, it is the arrogance of your worldview that translates disbelief wrt the bible into atheism.

I don't know about Dane, but I wouldn't say "there is no god" - I would however say "there is no yahweh." The concept of god is much larger than the tribal and capricious character found especially in the Hebrew testament.

In the end, the issue ultimately is the authority of scripture (and in this case I'm going to assume you'll want to define scripture as the generally accepted canon used by most protestant churches). You start with the idea that your bible is the perfect word of a perfect being, so we are already in two very different places. My study of the gospels, pauline and pseudopauline letters makes it plain to me that the greek testament reflects a culture that has in many ways moved beyond the petty tribalism of the ancient hebrews (but not as far as might be hoped) yet ultimately squandered the insights of a spiritual teacher who was ahead of his time, and still reflects a deity as flawed as the creatures He purportedly created (not surprising given the fact that it was He that was actually created by said creatures).
Old    GD (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       12-25-2009, 9:59 PM Reply   
I am not an atheist nor an agnostic. I simply appear to be a human who lacks the "religious" gene that draws people into this "omnipotent holy ghost" stuff.

I also don't mind if that is what floats your boat provided you afford me the same freedom.
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       12-26-2009, 5:53 AM Reply   
^^ I'm with GD on this one.

Religion or my lack thereof doesn't cross my mind on even a weekly basis, except for noting hypocrisy of "religious" folks. I don't feel like I'm missing anything or gaining anything (except maybe a more open mind) from my lack of piousness.

Dan, I'm calling BS. Nobody would have food AND Diet Coke in their mouth at the same time. ;)
Old     (fogey)      Join Date: Mar 2002       12-26-2009, 9:58 AM Reply   
Wes, I understand the difference between the Bible and the larger concept of religion that the Bible and Christianity are only a part of. But at its core, the concept of "religion" centers on faith in things that can't be proven, and for the most part that includes the existence of supernatural entities typically called "gods," "dieties," or something similar.

You are correct, however, in noting that when I say "religion" I'm referring to a monotheistic belief in an active god. This is consistent with the Bible, but not exclusively so and it includes Judaism, Islam, and some branches of Hinduism. I recognize that "religion" also includes polytheism, pantheism, paganism, wiccanism, etc. However, these are so little practiced in the U.S. that it's rare anyone will be confused by conflating "religion" with active monotheism. It's also pretty difficult to note all these permutations of "religion" in a brief comment on a discussion forum. But if you feel that truncating the argument here on WW for brevity's sake makes me "arrogant," so be it.

Getting closer to the heart of the matter, "religion" also includes Deism, which as you know is monotheistic but posits a god who is inactive in the affairs of man and who has provided no specific guidance for conduct. Unless you're a big fan of Natural Law, however, a Deistic belief system functions pretty much the same as secular humanism.

The issue I intended to raise is religion vs. secular humanism (but apparently I didn't do a very good job of it). When individuals formulate their own rules of conduct based solely on what makes sense to them (e.g., the Good Person "religion"), from a functional standpoint that's secular humanism.

So, I don't think I mischaracterized the philosophy that informed Benjamin's essay, or Eubanks' response.
Old    Someone Else (deltahoosier)      Join Date: Jun 2002       12-31-2009, 1:28 PM Reply   
Wes. Why was race even brought up in this discussion from you? While on that note. Why do you constantly lie about interment in WW2. You never ever mention the thousands of German Americans that were also interned. Always trying to place that race slant aren't ya. Only ever bring up the Japanese interment to paint racism while ignoring that we also interned white people. Call it racism if you want but he facts were they interned anyone who may have been a potential threat. Pure and simple and you are telling lies of omission. Many things you and other liberal minded race baiters like to ignore is actions of some groups and then attribute it solely to race. I know that racism does exist and will always be a issue. Much of it is ignorant misplacement of social interaction vs color.
I do believe that some things need to be private and some things need to be in government hands. I think that things should be more toward private because you have the government there as a buffer. I tend to see a vision of control loops. If you go to the government only, you have zero buffer.

Kind of interesting you bring up the DU angle which pretty much leads me to believe you know what I say is absolutely true. That is liberal elitists like to think they are the only intellectuals and all others are ignorant follows of an imaginary being.

Ben, I did not even look at your age to be honest with you. You give me or you too much credit or are way to sensitive about your age. If you must get into it, you are a kid. I thank you for your service, but, trying to make a point and frame your argument that you were in the military most of your adult life gives you some sort of special life experience does not exactly cut it. It has no basis for being an adult. The military is not exactly a organization that is known for independent thought. Kind of that do as I tell you type of organization. Also as a 26 year old, I most definitely consider you a kid. It is the reality of life. I am a kid to 50 year olds. Most people between 25 and 30 either go straight or simply lose there minds. Also, if you are not somewhat of a kid for the rest of your life, then you are just living to die. Being a Christian has nothing to do with anything I said and it is perfectly fine to judge. People do it every day. If you don't judge and make judgements you will live your life wondering why you always get yourself into trouble.

John, How did people do it (health care) for generations? At the end of the day, how does a country pay for something that is 15% of our GNP. That is the initial cost. Right now, the cost is those who profit. Now you want to move the cost to those who do not profit. The cost basis for healthcare have not been addressed and dealt with. You cannot have a infinite use program and still have a for use based billing system. History and pure economic principles dictate you will have either shortages of care givers if billing is frozen or you will have runaway costs if you have unlimited use. It is not as simple as just give it to the government.

On a general note. People on this post like to say they needed nothing to tell them right from wrong and that the bible holds no special place in moral code. That seems to work in some places. We then complain about people blowing up planes, genocide, female mutilation, and you name it. How can any of you judge those people. I mean, people naturally have the ability to tell right from wrong don't they? No one should judge right?
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       12-31-2009, 3:10 PM Reply   
Rod, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are ignorant of what really happened wrt WWII internment. First of all, it was brought up because we were discussing the ability of governments (and other entities) to appeal to religion in order to push things through, and I was pointing out that there are plenty of other cultural means they can use to do so (including race).

As for the internment itself, consider the actual facts and I hope you will come to see that your insistence that Japanese Americans were treated the same as Italian Ams and German Ams is simply untrue.

By 1936 concentration camps and surveillance were already being readied in Hawaii NOT only for aliens, but for citizens. An August, 1941 letter to President Roosevelt from Michigan Representative John Dingell is an eerie foreshadowing of events that were to soon occur; it suggested the incarceration of 10,000 Hawaiian Japanese Americans, not due to any military necessity concerns such as espionage, but as hostages to ensure “good behavior” on the part of Japan.

Curtis B. Munson was commissioned by the President to gather information on the “loyalty” of
the Japanese American population in Hawaii and the west coast.
This investigation was followed by a 25 page report to President Roosevelt and the
Departments of State, War and the Navy in early November, 1941. The Munson report did not conclude that Japanese Americans were likely to be
disloyal to the United States, but indeed the exact opposite, that the community posed very little
threat to national security
. The Nisei were described as showing “a pathetic eagerness to be
Americans” and were thus dismissed as no threat. Amidst a background of engrained military suspicions and general hostility towards the Japanese, the government seems to have disregarded
Munson’s conclusions as unreliable.

The day the bombs fell the FBI forcibly arrested hundreds (thousands within a couple days) of Japanese American CITIZENS without due process. General John Dewitt (whose racist views are well documented) was put in charge of the internment efforts and rumors circulated that any objects
which were ‘Japanese’ were incriminating and that many Issei were being
interned because of possession of them. During the days that followed, almost
every Japanese family had a thorough housecleaning, and all objects that were
kept for sentimental reasons were pulled out of trunks and destroyed.

Dewitt had this to say about the internment of various enemy groups: "It makes no difference whether he is an American citizen, he is still a Japanese. . .You needn’t worry about the Italians at all except in certain cases. Also, the
same for Germans except in individual cases. But we must worry about the
Japanese all the time until he is wiped off the map.
"

Seriously, Rod... this is the dude in charge of internment and you're gonna try and tell me race wasn't a factor?

The few Japanese American CITIZENS who appealed to the courts for constitutional protection were failed by them, with the courts finding that the military during times of war can basically render the constitution moot.

Further racism can be seen in the government's efforts to trade citizens with Japan during wartime. Citizens that were visiting Japan (and vice versa) when war broke out were stranded, so both governments worked to trade nationals back and forth. However, the US government only traded for white citizens - Japanese American CITIZENS were left out and were stranded in Japan.

When it comes to Italians, some were subject to curfew, and some were detained - however they were all CITIZENS OF ITALY and were given a hearing in front a 3 person board. In all only 250 ITALIAN CITIZENS (not American citizens) were interned. This ended in 1942, whereas Japanese release did not begin until 1945.

The courts at least did document the racism prevalent during this time, during the Korematsu case they noted: "No adequate reason is given for the failure to treat Japanese Americans on an
individual basis by holding investigations and hearings to separate the loyal from
the disloyal, as was done in the case of persons of German and Italian ancestry.
"

But the court still went on to say that military necessity trumped the constitutional rights of these AMERICAN CITIZENS. Of course, now it is public record that such necessity did not exist, and the government and military had both civilian and military documentation of that fact. In fact, General Dewitt, aware that there was no real case against JA citizens, intentionally and falsely asserted that Japanese on the west coast were involved in radio
and shore-to-ship signaling, while these statements were categorically denied by the F.B.I. and the F.C.C. - but the government withheld the FBI and FCC reports from the courts. Over 40 years later in the 1980s the courts finally acknowledged these inaccuracies and cleared the criminal records of these men who did nothing wrong, but the cases stll stand as law.

Just a final quick tally

Japanese aliens interned: 50,000
Japanese american citizens interned: 70,000
Italian aliens interned: 250
Italian american citizens interned: 0
German aliens/citizens interned: 11,000 (only alien Germans were interned, but many family members who were citizens chose to voluntarily join them)

This does not even get into discussing how most JA internees lost EVERYTHING they owned, especially as many were farmers. Also interesting to note - many of the 11,000 counted in the German number were actually shipped here from Latin American countries, many were mixed-race - and were used together with German aliens (not citizens) as bartering chips with Germany to get US citizens back in trade.

Seriously, Rod?
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       01-01-2010, 6:23 PM Reply   
Why do you constantly lie about interment in WW2. You never ever mention the thousands of German Americans that were also interned. Always trying to place that race slant aren't ya. Only ever bring up the Japanese interment to paint racism while ignoring that we also interned white people. Call it racism if you want but he facts were they interned anyone who may have been a potential threat. Pure and simple and you are telling lies of omission. Many things you and other liberal minded race baiters like to ignore is actions of some groups and then attribute it solely to race.

<<chirp>>
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       01-03-2010, 1:40 AM Reply   
Guess Rod isn't going to apologize for his name-calling and false accusations.

Jeff, back to your point re: morality/ethics and making money via shady credit card tactics. I don't think the bible has anything to say about American Express, but it's been a while since I did a thorough search. Our legal system (ethics) is fixed and therefore obviously less in flux than the fluid moral spectrum of 300 million people (or whatever the heck we're up to in this country now). However, ethics eventually trend towards the moral compass of society so if your tactics are found to be morally wanting by enough people, the ethical system will eventually be altered accordingly.

The only difference between you and those you disagree with is that you've constructed a cheat from conflicting stories in the pages of a book -- but that's all Yahweh is - a cheat: a way for one to exempt themself from the democratic struggle of determining your morality.

Now that's not to say that the sacred texts of many religions (many parts of the bible prominent among them) cannot and do not contain much to inform this struggle... But again we're back to disagreeing on the authority of the text (which is pretty much where this argument is always destined to ultimately find itself).

(Message edited by pesos on January 03, 2010)
Old     (fogey)      Join Date: Mar 2002       01-03-2010, 7:57 AM Reply   
I've never heard the term "Democratic struggle . . . of determining . . . morality" before. Does it mean a democratic struggle to define morality? Or a democratic struggle to legislate moral precepts that exist outside the democratic process? And I'm wondering that the implication of this concept is for the vast majority of humanity that does not live in a democratic society. I'm also wondering what the argument is that they should live under the Western ideal of a democratic society.

And by the way, I don't exempt myself from anything. I vote for legislators who will do the right thing, as I see it. And once a law gets passed, and I'll follow it - whether I agree with it or not. That's not only a citizen's duty, but it's in the Bible as well.

Then I'll go beyond the law to meet a higher standard. For example, no law requires me to make charitable donations to the needy; or to be a more caring and loving husband, father, and friend; or to speak up when I see an injustice. But my God's ethical standard does require these things, and more. So I try. If you don't think that's not a struggle, try walking a mile in my shoes. But since you don't share the same faith, I would not dream of trying to hold you to these standards or judging you for failing to meet them. For you, they're irrelevant except to whatever extent you may think they're a good idea.

Finally, the disagreement is not on the authority of the Bible. I think I've said this at least twice before. The point is that without some sort of consensus on a transcendental set of basic standards, there can be no objective "right" vs. "wrong." The only guidance is the Zeitgeist of the time and culture. So, for example, there is no objective basis for condemning the internment of the Japanese. I personally think it was terribly wrong, but without an external standard to measure it by, I don't see any objective way to condemn it in the context it occurred. I'm open to considering whatever source you want to suggest for such an objective standard so we don't have to go through that again simply because scared and/or racist people want it to happen.

Edit: Added "not" in the sentence "If you think that's not a struggle..."

(Message edited by fogey on January 03, 2010)
Old    Wes (pesos)      Join Date: Oct 2001       01-04-2010, 8:40 AM Reply   
3 hour delay out of Beijing and stil don't have my bag here in Hong Kong. AWESOME. May be a while before I respond, but I do enjoy discussing this with you Jeff. Rod is still MIA, lol.

Reply
Share 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 2:03 PM.

Home   Articles   Pics/Video   Gear   Wake 101   Events   Community   Forums   Classifieds   Contests   Shop   Search
Wake World Home

 

© 2012 eWake, Inc.    
Advertise    |    Contact    |    Terms of Use    |    Privacy Policy    |    Report Abuse    |    Conduct    |    About Us