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Old    Ricardo (gunz)      Join Date: Sep 2001       12-28-2009, 8:16 PM Reply   
Someone here has got to have a good answer,please.....

My 17 year old neice has had some big drug problems the past year and a half or so.She's tried to kill herself twice,both times slashing her wrists in front of my sister.
She cleaned up for about a month,but has gone back to smoking meth,and her voilent outburst are coming alot more frequently.

My daughter is a little older,and knows some of her friends.They said she would do whatever drug you put in front of her,no questions asked.This is scary to me,and I used to be into meth.

She pretty much comes and goes as she pleases,gone for days,getting extremely wasted,wandering the streets at night,etc.

We're in Nor Cal,and from what my sister says,until she really screws up again and the law gets involved,there isn't a damn thing they can do about her behavior.

They've been dealing with her BS for almost 2 years now.She has attacked my brother in law with 2 butcher knives,and they only sleep with their bedroom doors locked.I fear for my sisters and brother in laws life(she is that crazy!)

So what options does a parent have in this case?

Kick her out is what I came up with.When they did this,she took E everyday for 2 weeks straight.
Also she's a minor,so can you really kick her out?

Can you make her go to a rehab if she doesn't/won't go?

If you've got an answer,I want to hear it,if not,at least a ttt so maybe someone who does will see it.



Thanks,

Ritchie.
Old    Nick Tomsyck (sidekicknicholas)      Join Date: Mar 2007       12-28-2009, 8:45 PM Reply   
may not be the best for her now, but it may pay off in the long run....
GET THE LAW INVOLVED, A LOT!

Sounds like this girl is into a lot of illegal stuff... call the cops when she has/using drugs.
Put something of value and just dangle it in front of her and have it stolen (I would guess a heavy user will take what they can get for $$$) and then call her in, report it stolen... set her up to be busted.

She sounds like she needs profession help... the klink should do just that.

Or have her mom setup something to be signed, for school or some bank stuff, some BS that as a kid she won't read (i never did as a kid) that would be an admittance to rehab.... Just staple the final page of the rehab self-commitance deal to a stack of other papers (super shady) but when she signs that should be enough to get here there.

Blows my mind that the mother/guardian cannot just take her and MAKE her do it... since they are the legal guardian
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       12-28-2009, 8:58 PM Reply   
Can't the parents have her held/commited on a 5150 if she tries to commit suicide? I think so. Of coarse as a parent that's probably not an easy thing to do, but neither is watching them self destroy. Tough love I guess it's called...
Old    kyle (lfxstar)      Join Date: Jul 2001       12-28-2009, 9:05 PM Reply   
Just have her baker acted. Call the police, tell them she is a danger to herself and others and is under the influence of drugs, and they will come and take her to the psych ward at the local hospital. Because she is 17 the parents make the decision after 72 hours to let her go or not or she can sign a voluntary B50 if she really wants to keep getting treated. If a person is a deemed a harm to themselves or others for any reason, they can be baker acted for a minimum of 72 hours without anything else needing to be done. In that 72 hours she will be evaluated by a psychiatrist every day, treated for her drug abuse whether it is medicating her withdrawals or sedating her until she calms down etc etc. If anything, just say that she said she was going to kill herself (whether she said it or not it is your word against hers and obviously they will take yours) and it will be a non issue.
Old    kyle (lfxstar)      Join Date: Jul 2001       12-28-2009, 9:10 PM Reply   
When you call the cops and they come, they legally have to take her to the psych ward at the hospital to be evaluated by the psychiatrist and then the psychiatrist decided whether or not they need to be baker acted and stay. With a 17 year old I believe the parents can be in the room if they want.
Old    Melissa (psych3060)      Join Date: Sep 2002       12-28-2009, 9:14 PM Reply   
It sounds to me that she has some serious mental health issues, and the drug issues are secondary. I agree that the parents can have her evaluated under a 5150 if she threatens again. Unfortunately, kids often know the right things to say to an evaluator to get out of a 72 hour hold because they are deemed not to be a danger to themselves or someone else. Sucks that your sister and her husband are dealing with this. However, I don't agree with you that they should kick her out. They should help her seek treatment.
Old    Peter_C (peter_c)      Join Date: Sep 2001       12-28-2009, 10:43 PM Reply   
Have the parents talked to a drug counselor yet?
Old    A. P. (bigdad)      Join Date: Apr 2002       12-28-2009, 11:13 PM Reply   
uh... a lot of you have this fantasy of how you think the law and psych evals work.

It doesn't work like that folks.

Ricardo-unfortunately the answer is there isn't much the parents can do. Make her a ward of the court... she will be 18 by the time that happens. Send her to boot camp.... sure but then again it may not work and when she turns 18 she can do what she wants and leave.


The reality is she is too far gone and stuck in her ways for any short time solution to work. You said you used to be into meth... what caused you to quit? That is your solution.
Old    Bryan (westsiderippa)      Join Date: Dec 2006       12-28-2009, 11:38 PM Reply   
2Nd the 5150.
Old    Ricardo (gunz)      Join Date: Sep 2001       12-29-2009, 2:43 AM Reply   
A.P.-I decided I'd had enough,it was more of a social thing for me anyhow.She will do whatever you put in front of her.Even when I was young and stupid,those type of people always scared the crap outta me,and I steered clear of them.

She's not like that.

The parents have had her taken away and locked up,talked to drug counselor,and she was released after 3 days.
My sis blew some chances early,thinkin she could handle it themselves,but has done just about everything now.The kid has the system figured out and is just working them big time.

I'm in for framing her with a large quantity and have her sent up,but I don't know about them.
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       12-29-2009, 5:12 AM Reply   
I have a daughter, but she's only two so I can't (yet) imagine what it's like to be in their position. I gotta say though that as soon as I felt like I needed to sleep with my bedroom door locked, she would be out on the street. I think my parenting instinct would be pretty much gone after the knife attack.
Old    Jason G (jason_ssr)      Join Date: Apr 2001       12-29-2009, 6:28 AM Reply   
Such a hard situation. Even as a logical thinker I tend to have an emotional knee jerk reaction to it. It so scary to think about it, but no matter how good a parent you are, there are influences out there that can send even the best kid down the wrong path. Do we keep our kids on lockdown and not allow them to experience life merely because they are at risk of seeing the bad side? Do we allow them exposure to the world in hopes that our teachings keep them safe at all times? If a child begins down the wrong path, what are we willing to do to save them? Are we willing to take their rights away by force? Are we willing to uproot the entire family and move into seculsion? Or, at 17, do we allow them the life they choose and turn away?

I believe it comes down to "who is in control". Many times in a parents attempt to give freedom in a show of good faith, they instead give up control. I remember vividly some friends very similar to your niece. They arent stupid. I remember going out with a gal who picked me up at my house and took me to her house for her to get ready to go out. Her folks gave her a 11pm curfew, and she insisted on Midnight. In a show of good faith her folks agreed. We got back to my folks house later and watched TV til about 11:30pm when I said she better get on the road to meet her midnight deadline. She said, "dont worry, I run the show there. It wont be a problem."

IMO you either have to be willing to force her compliance, or let her go.
Old    Paul (psudy)      Join Date: Dec 2003       12-29-2009, 7:13 AM Reply   
I think it differs state to state, but with her being a minor, I believe you can check her into rehab against her will. You may need a Judge to sign the order, which shouldn't be all that hard to do(it may take getting the law involved first, so there are priors), but I would def. look into it. Good luck.
Old     (wtrgrl)      Join Date: Mar 2009       12-29-2009, 7:55 AM Reply   
In CA you can have her checked into a rehab against her will but once she turns 18 she's free to do as she pleases. If she has the system figured out all she has to do is say the right things to get released. May suck to hear but only she can make the decision to quit and family and friends can only guide her in the right direction if that's what SHE wants.
Old    A. P. (bigdad)      Join Date: Apr 2002       12-29-2009, 8:12 AM Reply   
The framing her for large quantities won't work. The juvenile justice system believes juvenile's are just "misguided youths" and won't prosecute. Especially for drugs. You almost have to kill someone to get some decent amount of time.

Parents don't like hearing this, but if you look in the past, you can see where they went wrong in parenting. Now they are paying for those mistakes. With a 17 year old, there is nothing you can do but let go. Until she hits rock bottom, she will continue to do what she wants.
Old    PAUL (pnichols)      Join Date: Jan 2007       12-29-2009, 8:46 AM Reply   
When will she be turning 18?
Old    Ricardo (gunz)      Join Date: Sep 2001       12-29-2009, 8:50 AM Reply   
She turns 18 in sept or october
Old    Jeff Baker (innov8)      Join Date: May 2005       12-29-2009, 8:59 AM Reply   
"Parents don't like hearing this, but if you look in the past, you can see where they went wrong in parenting. Now they are paying for those mistakes. With a 17 year old, there is nothing you can do but let go. Until she hits rock bottom, she will continue to do what she wants."

Sad to say, but A.P. is 100% correct.

I wish your family the best, hope she turns herself around.
Old    RileyBangerter (steezyshots)      Join Date: Feb 2008       12-29-2009, 8:59 AM Reply   
I had a cousin that went through this, and honestly him ending up in jail/prison was the worst thing for him, I would do anything to help without trying to frame her to get her to go to prison.
Old    David Williams (wakeworld)      Join Date: Jan 1997       12-29-2009, 9:24 AM Reply   
Yeah, framing her seems like a bad idea. In addition to the fact that you've announced it on a public forum and you could end up going to jail instead, you'll be both alienating her further from those close to her with what she will see as absolute betrayal and at the same time immersing her in an environment of the worst people she could be around in her state, quickly making those people her new family and trusted advisors. Seems like a recipe for making a bad thing much worse!
Old    Steve Bates (steve_b)      Join Date: Feb 2004       12-29-2009, 9:46 AM Reply   
I can speak from experience..

I had a severe drinking problem from 18 - 24 years old. With that came drugs. At my peak I was doing just about every drug out there, and yes would do anything presented to me. I was told daily from close friends to quit or I would die and it simply made me angry. No-one can force someone to quit. No-one. She has to make the decision on her own and want to get clean. I was forced by the state twice and both times came back stronger than ever.
Unfortunately, you need to let something like this run its course.
Don't get me wrong, stepping in and getting someone into a center is not a bad thing. Especially when they are suicidal. When in the center the individual still has to embrace the thought of becoming clean or you are simply delaying the inevitable.
I have been sober and clean for 13 years, seven months, 28 days, and 14 hours.... but who's counting.

I don't completely agree with the parent philosophy as I had and have the most understanding and loving parents on the planet. A massive part of addiction is genetic. It's a perfect storm if you have Dbag parents.
Old    dave allen (dave)      Join Date: Apr 2002       12-29-2009, 9:50 AM Reply   
I hope that for my sake as a parent that I never have to experience this scenario again. I have been down this road with a dear family member. If I could go back and time (and the family member will state same as he is now over five years sober) we should have let him walk. Until an individual is Done...there is nothing anyone can do. Period.

We exhausted every possible avenue when trying to help. When he wanted out of treatment ( and I mean all kinds of programs) he discovered quickly were administration drew the line on behavior, and he was out. Same day he wanted out he was out and using on the same day.

I was the first to walk away within our family, it took the rest a couple of more years of torture to walk as well. For three years all we did was enable his behavior. Within the last of the family walking he was sober within the year. Five years later he is now dedicated to helping others let go. It's a hard decision to make but one of two outcomes will follow. The individual will hit bottom and decide they are done, or they will die in the process.
Old    PAUL (pnichols)      Join Date: Jan 2007       12-29-2009, 10:04 AM Reply   
It's sad to admit for me, but I was a major handful for my parents. I wasn't as bad as your niece, when it came to drugs, but I did my fair share of partying. I wasn't coming home when I was supposed to and sometimes not at all, when I was her age. Growing up in socal I saw exactly what crystal meth did to people. Heck at one point in time I believe it was considered the meth capital of the United States.

My parent finally had enough of me disrespecting their rules, and put a plan in place.

One night after staying out all night I came home only to find out my mom had stayed home from work. She had told me that if I wanted to live under their roof, that I needed to go with her to see a family therapist. I told her I would, and she made an appointment that day.

Once we got to the hospital where the therapist worked at we went inside. I noticed that when the door shut behind us, that it had a huge magnetic lock at the top of the door.

You probably can figure the rest out from there, but I didn't go home that day. I was also 17. I ended up staying there for 60 days, and it was the best thing my parents could have done for me at the time. I needed a chance to get away from some of the negative influences, and clear my thinking up. I met with people that had gone through the things I was going through and came out the other side alive, and doing well. I left there after 60 days with some new, and healthier friends then the ones I was hanging out with prior to my visit to the therapist lol.

I was tricked into it, and to be honest I wouldn't have went there knowing I wasn't going to be able to come home that day. At first I was irate and refused to even speak to my parents for the first week. It wasn't easy for my parents either and my mom still says that it was hard for her to leave me there, but she is glad that she did.

I haven't told too many people that story. It was an embarrassing point in my youth that I can't do over. I'm thankful that my parents never gave up on me and did what they thought was necessary to get me back on track.

There is still hope for your niece and enough time to get her into a hospital, where she can get the help she needs.

Edit: While in the hospital there were a few kids that were admitted by ambulance. They were suicidal and had refused to go there on their own free will.

(Message edited by pnichols on December 29, 2009)

(Message edited by pnichols on December 29, 2009)
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       12-29-2009, 10:31 AM Reply   
The individual is to blame for their actions, not anyone else. Gets tiring hearing people making excuses for people. "My dad left me, my mom beat me, my teacher was mean... yada yada yada. People just need to take responsibility. Nobody makes you do anything you don't want to do, period! Substance abuse is a sickness...
Old    Andy Graham (ottog1979)      Join Date: Apr 2007       12-29-2009, 10:46 AM Reply   
A.P and Jeff are going in the right direction. The drugs, suicide attempts and illegal activities are a cry for help, a mask or distraction from her pain and the only coping method that has worked for her (as right or wrong as it seems in other people's eyes). The question is, what is it that she's hiding from, what's causing this pain? Until those close to her acknowledge and look at this, her behavior is likely to continue.
Old    Matt (duramat)      Join Date: Feb 2008       12-29-2009, 8:06 PM Reply   
Thats a sad, sad, deal.

I too am sick of the "Oh its got to be the bad Parenting issue" yes, its true to some point but in the end even the most churchy and guided can make that one decision to take them to the depths of personal hell. My youngest bro did weed and Meth on a daily basis for all of his teenage years. He was so entrenched in the workings and networking of it all. He knew how to get his meth and never paid for it. ("Dealers are the most lonely, you buddy up with one and he'll keep ya around and you get it free") He knocked up his gfriend, lost costody of his kid, relenquished his rights (smart enough to know the kid needed better) hit rock bottom, and stayed there for quite a while. He finally decided to clean up and on his own got into the salvation army's drug rehab program and completed it and has been clean for the past 3 years and has turned his life completely around. He is not the same "meth" kid as we knew him during that bad time. The kicker is,,in order for her or anyone else to get clean, they have to want it and do it on their own.

He was hit hard by the loss of our grandma, the two were close. That was blow number one. His girlfriend was caught with weed by her parents and had a fight and she decided to hang herself by a belt in her closet, Blow number 2. He had some other friend comit suicide, Blow number 3, Another close friend killed in a auto accident, Blow number 4, Another friend for what ever intents and purposes decided to end his life, Blow number 5, A good friend/coworker left his suicide note on his palm pilot and with a list of all he wanted to attend his funeral, Blow number 6, and there was another one shortly after. Most of the friends that committed suicide were all from different groups of friends he had, not all knew of the other. It is said that for every suicide there will be like seven "copy cat" attempts and some will actually suceed. Oh ya, weve been the emotional rounds with my bro. I actually did take him aside and admit him to the hospital for his own personal sake one evening.

Yes it can get frustrating hoping and wishing and its so hard with the tuff love cause theyre not emotionally normal to reason things out and all it takes is a simple mishap of whatever to send them over the edge and take themselves out of the gene pool. My prayers are with ya and with those in the same situation. I wouldnt wish all the turmoil weve had on anyone.

A little humor, the night I had him admitted one of the male nurses stopped in the door and pointed to a kids toy in his hand and said, "See and Say"? and walked off. My bro had this confused look on his face and looked at me and asked, "Did that dude ask if I was insane??" Too which I was trying not to laugh and smile infront of him.

(Message edited by duramat on December 29, 2009)
Old    H2O Pro Accessories (h2oproaccessories)      Join Date: Sep 2007       12-30-2009, 6:05 AM Reply   
at 17 I would think you can make her go. At 18... I would think you lost your chance. She is not just going to stop using on her own.
Old    Keith (rkg)      Join Date: Apr 2002       12-30-2009, 7:05 AM Reply   
Have they tried an intervention with a counselor present. It may require tough decisions, but usually comes down to get help or get out. Sad, but sometimes it is the only way to get an addicts attention. Once they lose the safety net of a warm place to come home to, they either head towards rock bottom or get help.
Old    kylie-logan (kylielogan)      Join Date: Apr 2006       12-30-2009, 7:42 AM Reply   
i think at 17, since she is a minor, her parents might be able to have her involuntarily committed to a facility, at least short term to make sure she is not a risk to herself or others. that being said, my sis-in-law attempted suicide just before thanksgiving and she was put on a psych hold and now is out of the hospital with no counseling and no meds, so a lot of good it did! maybe their best option at this point is to start holding her accountable for her actions - such as, when she threatens someone with a knife, call the police and follow thru with pressing charges. social services would likely get involved, i think, but again that is a result of her choices. i think everyone is right that you can't make someone stop if they don't want to, but the parents can ensure that her actions have consequences. at a certain point, the parents also have to protect themselves and other family members, so by changing their reaction to her, they in a way force her to change as well. and when the bottom does fall out for her, then the parents should be there to help her pick up the pieces when she's ready. what a tough situation to be in. wish everyone the best.
Old    A. P. (bigdad)      Join Date: Apr 2002       12-30-2009, 9:52 AM Reply   
Sorry to say this, but there is some bad advice here from people who don't know how the system works. I can tell you it doesn't work like that.

If she threatens someone with a knife, and you call the police. What do you think is going to happen? I can tell you nothing will happen. And most likely, Juvenile Hall won't accept her. The problem is you have no proof the allegation actually happened and that is how the justice system views it. Now if mom has a knife sticking out of her back... then you have proof. But until then, sorry the kid isn't going to jail. There are "emergency care homes" for incorrigible juveniles. But think of this as just a place to stay. The doors are not locked and the counselors are not allowed to restrain the kid. What happens more times than not is the kid runs away. Police get called and yet another missing person report gets taken and added to the thousands of open cases. Do you think there is much effort to look for an incorrigible kid who ran away?

5150 W&I (psych hold). Again the rules for a criminal act apply here. Maybe she made threats to kill herself, but where is the proof. You can call the cops and when they show up and talk to the kid and the kid is rational and denies making those threats.... what do you have? Nothing. Can't take the kid in. Even if you do, the counselors talk to the kid she denies any threats being made and claims mom just hates her and the facility lets her go and attends to the other patients. You are talking about a government facility that is short on money and plenty of patients to attend to. They don't have much incentive to help people who don't want help. A private facility where you are paying the doctor may be a different story.

The parents can't take her back unconditionally. It serves as a crutch. If the kid calls and says "mom I'm in jail." Hang up the phone. "Mom can I have money". Slam the door in her face. If you continue to bail the kid out, then she knows she can always go and buy a little bit of time. Next you know she is pregnant and grandma is raising the kids... notice how I used the plural.

She can be accepted back into the family only when she has really showed a genuine interest to change and has taken steps for recovery. Otherwise it is a cycle that will never stop.

Trust me, I see it all the time.
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       12-30-2009, 3:01 PM Reply   
She slashed her wrists more than once and in front of someone else. That is physical proof and she can be commitied with that...
Old    Ricardo (gunz)      Join Date: Sep 2001       12-31-2009, 1:48 PM Reply   
Sparky-True,the person has to want to quit,or all of this is a waste of time.I totally agree.

Andy G.-I know what you're sayin but from everything I've heard,she just likes getting wasted.Some people are like that.If anything did happen to her,(and I think this is when)I think it was when she was wasted.

Kylie-Bummer on your SIL,attempt suicide=out in 3 days.....great system ain't it.

Keith-I agree,with the intervention,but it'll only work if the kid agrees,and thats not gonna happen yet.I also agree with the rest of your statement.

A.P.-Obviously you know what I'm talking about here,having seen this kinda stuff first hand.I appreciate your input.

I've looked at this situation,and the weak link is my sister.She has always been a big talker,but a pushover when it comes to her kids.She's a good person,just weak.When my bro in law drops the hammer on one of them,she always went against him.This kid,being the youngest, has seen it over and over,and has figured it out,and unfortunatly knows how to play them.
It's getting ugly over there.

So,A.P.,can they legally kick her out?

Or do they have to wait til she's eighteen?
Old    kevin (neffro)      Join Date: Jul 2005       12-31-2009, 4:42 PM Reply   
Your best bet is to show her lots of love and support and show here she has something to live for. NEVER get upset and fight with here about the drugs you will never win and only make matters worse, do not set her up to steel so she can get tossed in the slammer, this will make matters much worse. I had a sister heavy on Heron for many years, we tried everything and nothing worked until we showed here support and lots of love. Just then she agreed to go into rehab for 1 year, NOT 1 Month and she has been clean for 2 years now. Forcing her to get help will not work until she wants it and ADMITS she has a problem, you will need to some how get her away from the dirt bags she is hanging with first, keep her busy having fun with family. LOVE AND SUPPORT IS KEY the parents also need to take a Drug addition class on how to handle it. There is tons of support groups for issues like this.
Old    Ricardo (gunz)      Join Date: Sep 2001       01-13-2010, 6:56 PM Reply   
So she ran away again yesterday.She took the dogs,2 puppies about 8 months old,out for a walk,and didn't come home.

This morning a buddy of mine found a cell phone by a park frequented by druggies,homeless,etc.It was hers,he called the numbers in it til he reached someone who cared,my mom,who called my sis.
They went looking in the park,heard the dogs barking,they were locked in an old bathroom there,they found her wasted,barely coherent,and(it gets worse)apparently raped.

She is putting my sister and BIL through hell.
Old    andy zarlengo (colorider)      Join Date: Jun 2001       01-13-2010, 8:41 PM Reply   
Ricardo,
That is absolutely horrible. Sorry your family is going thru this.
Sometimes rock bottom is very ugly. I hope she gets the help she desperately needs.
Old    ashly (ashly)      Join Date: Jul 2004       01-13-2010, 9:22 PM Reply   
Now was it rape or did she do it to get what she needed?
Old    A. P. (bigdad)      Join Date: Apr 2002       01-13-2010, 10:18 PM Reply   
Ricardo, sorry I didn't respond earlier. Legally- she is the parent's responsibility until she is an adult and the recognized age is 18.

It is sad to hear about what happened but can't say it is surprising. There are a lot of horrible things that happen to people. But pretty much they only have themselves to be blamed. Did she deserve to be drugged up and possible raped... no. Would this have happened if she just stayed at home.... no.

Maybe this is rock bottom for her. Like stated earlier. You can't force her to get help. She has to want it. Perhaps this will do it.
Old    Ricardo (gunz)      Join Date: Sep 2001       01-14-2010, 4:13 AM Reply   
andy-Unfortunatly,I don't think she has reached the bottom yet.

ashly-I think it's the latter.

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