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Old    59yroldkid            01-09-2010, 1:52 PM Reply   
Here's an article about methods used by corporate media to influence public opinion:

http://earthblognews.blogspot.com/2010/01/citizens-guide-to-understanding.html
Old     (fogey)      Join Date: Mar 2002       01-10-2010, 4:10 PM Reply   
Of course, propaganda by "corporate media" is SO much worse than propaganda methods used by ACORN, corrupt organized labor (sorry for the redundancy), and other "progressive" constituencies. After all, Sal Alinsky was a corporate shill, right?

And when people are smart enough to reject leftist propaganda, ACORN and union bosses can always call in SEIU thugs to "persuade" the poor deluded proletariat to see the light - or else. I haven't seen too many corporations take that approach.
Old    59yroldkid            01-10-2010, 8:37 PM Reply   
Thanks for taking the time to read the article, Jeff, and, as always, your thoughtful and urbane comments are appreciated. You might recall that about a month ago a federal court issued a preliminary injunction restoring ACORN's funding.[ http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=11482 ]

I don't know much about Saul Alinsky other than that forty years ago a friend of mine used to mention his name quite a bit. I don't have time to look Alinsky up right now because those mean old union bosses have forced a poor defenseless oil company to put me to work on an overtime job. Perhaps you can fill me in on the Alinsky details and I could get back with you on what he said that I did or didn't agree with.
Old     (fogey)      Join Date: Mar 2002       01-11-2010, 4:55 AM Reply   
Wikipedia is a good start for a brief overview.

My point is that the use of manipulative tactics in communications, such as described in the article and others, are used by a variety of large, powerful institutions in America. They are not solely the province of corporations.

And since I practice labor law on the management side, it's unlikely you and I are ever going to agree in this area. You have your perspective, and I have mine. We just went through a representation campaign where an incumbent union tried to expand the bargaining unit. All I can say is, I was very proud to be a part of the successful management team that addressed worker's issues in a fair - and successful - manner. I could not have been a part of the union campaign that used misinformation, personal attacks, speculation, illegal promises, and all manner of underhanded tactics in a losing effort.

Maybe I've just been unlucky enough to have a history of dealing with unions that tend to be unreasonable, unreliable, petty, divisive, and narrow-minded. Maybe I've been blessed with enlightened clients that deserved better from the folks across the table. But in any event, that's been my experience. YMMV.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       01-11-2010, 5:14 AM Reply   
...Maybe the corporations were just willing to pay you more to represent them than the labor unions were offering.
Old    Paul (paulsmith)      Join Date: Mar 2002       01-11-2010, 6:27 AM Reply   
Jeff, corporate media propoganda is worse because the media is owned by corporations, for crying out loud. Not ACORN. Not "corrupt organized labor." Not "other 'progressive' constituencies.

Why is everything an either/or issue to you? It's possible, you know, to admit that corporations have way too much media control AND that ACORN, union bosses, etc. also can be corrupt/criminal/etc.
Old     (fogey)      Join Date: Mar 2002       01-11-2010, 11:03 AM Reply   
You miss the point even though I spelled out. I'll say it again:

"My point is that the use of manipulative tactics in communications, such as described in the article and others, are used by a variety of large, powerful institutions in America."

That doesn't sound like an "either/or" statement to me. But more to the point, I understood the article that PR cited as addressing the rhetorical devices used by corporations in propaganda, not the power of corporations in America.

YOU changed the subject by focusing on "control" of the media rather than propaganda devices. At most, maybe three of the 35 tactics cited in the article relate in some way to the power of corporate media. Frankly I didnh't get that far in the long list the first time around to even see them, much less identify then as "power" issues. You also treat "the media" as a monolithic institution. These are different issues from the article and my comment on it.

Again you jumped to conclusions about me, so let me respond in kind: why does everything you don't like have to be the result of conspiracies by or between evil corporations? Why can't you admit that Ted Turner and Rupert Murdoch - not to mention their media empires - have perspectives that are as different as night and day?

Jeremy, thanks for the typical liberal ad hominem comment. I can guarantee you that attorneys who represent labor unions make more than I do. I also can assure you that I don't need money badly enough to assert and try to defend the positions I hear from unions.
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       01-11-2010, 8:56 PM Reply   
I know Jeff. The unions always lie, cheat, and steal while all the corporations are always honest and do what is best for the employees. I only have loyalty towards the NEA, but I have dealt with Teamsters in the past. The local was bought and paid by the distribution center where I was a manager. What we (I include myself, but it happened because of my superiors) did was just as dishonest as what any labor union does.

If management would look at the reasons employees choose to organize, rather than trying to fight and attack labor unions, the problem would be minute.

But Jeff, keep convincing yourself you are fighting the good fight of truth and justice.

(Message edited by wake77 on January 11, 2010)
Old     (fogey)      Join Date: Mar 2002       01-12-2010, 5:00 AM Reply   
"I know Jeff. The unions always lie, cheat, and steal while all the corporations are always honest and do what is best for the employees.'

Yeah, that's exactly what I was trying to say when I wrote this:

"Maybe I've just been unlucky enough to have a history of dealing with unions that tend to be unreasonable, unreliable, petty, divisive, and narrow-minded. Maybe I've been blessed with enlightened clients that deserved better from the folks across the table. But in any event, that's been my experience. YMMV."

When I described unions I've dealt with as "unreasonable, unreliable, petty, divisive, and narrow-minded," what I really meant to say was that they "lie, cheat, and steal." I just couldn't think of that elegant phrase.

I guess the concept of YMMV is foreign to you. But you better be careful, 'cause Paul Smith may call you out for looking at everything as "either/or." He hates that.

And BTW, the management I work with listen to me and DID look at the reasons employees were considering organizing. They DID directly address the concerns raised (and that management had been unaware of). Among other things, we opened up a management-perogative decision-making process to complete transparency, and we created ways for employees' views to be voiced in that process.

So, yeah, after you carefully read what I said, you just nailed me. Congratulations!
Old    Jeremy (wake77)      Join Date: Jan 2009       01-12-2010, 10:33 AM Reply   
"I can guarantee you that attorneys who represent labor unions make more than I do. I also can assure you that I don't need money badly enough to assert and try to defend the positions I hear from unions."

Maybe my reading comprehension sucks, but that is exactly what I read from this sentence, which is the very last sentence of your previous post.

But whatever, you're the man, condescend if it makes you feel better.
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       01-12-2010, 10:51 AM Reply   
Hey Jeff, quick thread hijack. I been wondering...

What laws force companies and govt agencies to negotiate and sign union contracts? Given your occupation it seems like you could answer this. I've done some web searches but didn't find an answer.
Old     (fogey)      Join Date: Mar 2002       01-12-2010, 3:10 PM Reply   
For the private sector, the foundations are the National Labor Relations Act and the Taft-Hartley Act. Labor laws are administered by the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB). It is the NLRB that conducts representation elections or recognizes unions through card-check procedures where both labor and management concur in this process.

Once a union is "recognized," management has a legal duty to enter into collective bargaining. However, collective bargaining agreements (CBAs, or "union contracts") are contractual in nature. Among other things, this means that labor and management are legally required to negotiate "in good faith," but neither side is legally required to sign a CBA. That's where federal conciliation, mediation, strikes and lock-outs come into play. For more info, go to nlrb.gov.

Different laws apply to the public sector. For federal employees, the governing statute is the Civil Service Reform Act of 1978. It creates a right of recognition for unions representing federal employees and establishes the Federal Labor Relations Authority. The Authority classifies issues that are subject to mandatory collective bargaining, or permissive bargaining, or are not subject to bargaining at all. It also resolves unfair labor practice charges and bargaining disputes. For more info, go to flra.gov.

(Message edited by fogey on January 12, 2010)
Old    John Anderson (fly135)      Join Date: Jun 2004       01-13-2010, 7:45 AM Reply   
Thanks for the info. Laws forcing employers to engage in collective bargaining rub me the wrong way.

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