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Go Back   WakeWorld > >> Boats, Accessories & Tow Vehicles Archive > Archive through August 27, 2003

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Old    chuck kober (onealrep)      Join Date: May 2002       07-29-2003, 1:43 PM Reply   
After reading positive reviews here and on other boards, I went w/ the Adire Shiva 12" sub in my boat, but I must say that I'm not real stoked on the performance so far. I'm pushing it w/ a US Acoustics 2100, 300 watts RMS @ 4 ohms, in a free air set up under the dash. I have it crossed over around 100 hz. The sub has no real hit to it. It's loud and clean, but lacks "punch."

Any suggestions? Do I need more power?... do I need to enclose it?
Old    Wkerat (wkerat)      Join Date: Sep 2002       07-29-2003, 2:03 PM Reply   
i would put it in an enclosure to start. I do installs and that is a true sound quality sub, but with the righ box can give you a little punch, if you really wanted some punch you should have tried the brahma, they are bad ass. The shive is not a sub you can really feel, the brahma shakes things all to hell (i have 2 in my boat and love them)
Old    salty87 (salty87)      Join Date: Jul 2002       07-30-2003, 8:44 AM Reply   
more power
Old    Jonathan French (rock_n_boardin)      Join Date: May 2003       07-30-2003, 8:44 AM Reply   
Yeah the enclosure should give you the additional punch you are looking for.
Old    holbywan            08-12-2003, 10:25 AM Reply   
This is kinda' late in the discussion but I built an enclosure and was pissed that I spent so much time and money on it because it didn't really hit too hard. I added $2 worth of polyfill and it rumbles your fillings now. Spend the extra couple of bucks on polyfill, build an enclosure, it'll be well worth it!

I am running a Kicker 12" Solobaric at a 2 ohm load with an Alpine MRD300 amp.

Cheers
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       08-12-2003, 10:29 AM Reply   
get a inline subsonic filter to cut the freq's below 35-40 hz and you will be able to play it way louder. you should be able to get one from www.ampman.com for about 15.00 or less.
Old    clint_h            08-12-2003, 12:51 PM Reply   
It's probably a little late now, but the quick easy solution is to buy a JL Microsub. I canned my free air clarion and bolted in an 8.2 microsub and it sounds great. It sounds even better knowing I only spent 20 minutes taking the old sub out and putting the new one in!
Old    Alessandro Garabaghi (pimp131)      Join Date: Aug 2003       08-12-2003, 1:46 PM Reply   
are the JL microsubs free air? and water resistant? how much power do they take? and what sizes are they>
Old    clint_h            08-13-2003, 8:06 AM Reply   
The microsubs are on the bottom of this webpage

http://www.cartronics.com/stereo_jlaudio.html#
Old    whitechocolate            08-13-2003, 8:55 AM Reply   
Chris: Let me get this Straight All you did was add Polly Fill and did nothing else. How much harder does your Sub beat?
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       08-13-2003, 9:17 AM Reply   
subsonic filter will take care of it....becuase there is no enclosure, there is no suspension. you are therefore overextending the sub and distorting it. if you cut the lower freq's below 35-40 you will tighten up the sub and be able to play it much, much louder. if you look at all the post on ww about the sub in a free air, they all say to get the filter.
Old    Kung Fu Wake & Video (dcervenka)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-13-2003, 9:54 AM Reply   
Grant- The polyfill helped out quite a bit (it fools the sub into thinking it is in a bigger box thus allowing you to squeezing it into a small area like the drivers foot well).

I was there (drinking beer) and watched Chris in pure frustration as he labored 4+ hours measuring, building, and installing the sub only to find out it wasn't hitting that hard. What Chris forgot to mention is that by simply putting the boat in the water it made a world of difference on how hard the sub hit. It went from a "time to start over" project to "holly sh*t! that hits hard!!!!" noise blaring fun.





(Message edited by dcervenka on August 13, 2003)
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       08-13-2003, 9:57 AM Reply   
very good point. out of the water it is uninsulated and everything rattles and buzzs making it sound distorted. in the water it is way louder. do yourself a favor, before you change anything, get the filter. i can help you find one if you need. it will be night and day in output.

drop me a line if you need.
Old    Chaun Keating (big_poppa_pump)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-13-2003, 11:08 AM Reply   
I have heard the expression before that polyfill fools the sub into thinking it is a bigger box.

How much polyfil do you typically use in a box and should that affect the initial design of the enclosure?

I guess what I am asking, if one is going to use polyfill, should you make the box smaller because the sub is "fooled". Or should you just make the box within the reccommended range and add polyfil to it.

For instance, for a JL 10w3v2, the reccommended enclosure is 0.6 to 0.9 cu ft. Would a person want to design the box smaller than 0.6 cu ft when using polyfil? Or just get the box within the reccommend range and add in some certain amount of polyfil.

BTW, I am asking because I don't really know the answer and am looking at starting some projects in the next week or so.
Old    whitechocolate            08-13-2003, 11:37 AM Reply   
I say B.S, Dont you guy's think you exagerating Just a little bit. If I read it correctly it sounds like you guy's installed a sub. It didn't hit at all. Then you put "Polly Fill" in and then put the boat in the watter and then you teeth fell out. Im just joking with ya guy's. I just find it hard to believe. I have heard the benifits of a filled box over a unfilled box and I know its Not "Night and Day". Lets just leave the Hype at the Stereo Shop's. I just have never had adding one simple thing make a "World of diffrence" Tuning your system can and will make a world of differance, Never the less the Info on the Poly fill is good advice, As well as the sub sonic filter.

But to get to the Orignal post I have never heard a free air sub that sound very good. if you want your sub to hit I think your going to half to build a box to get true hard hitting bass
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       08-13-2003, 12:04 PM Reply   
you should hear my free air. vented on the top. an orion hcca 12 run with a 900 watt orion amp. the amps gains are at 3/4 to drive that big boy...


Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       08-13-2003, 12:05 PM Reply   
the shiva rocks but make sure you cut the lower freq's...
Old    Kung Fu Wake & Video (dcervenka)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-13-2003, 12:39 PM Reply   
Grant - It's not that there was no bass to start with, it just wasn't hitting as hard as we expected until the boat was in the water.

We'll be out in the San Mateo Lagoon on Thursday, if the wind is just right you might be able to hear the stereo all the way in Redwood city.



Old    chuck kober (onealrep)      Join Date: May 2002       08-13-2003, 1:21 PM Reply   
Wow, finally getting responses...for the record, I do have the in line sub sonic filter. I 'll probably look into making an enclosure.

Old    whitechocolate            08-13-2003, 1:36 PM Reply   
Kung Fu' Yes! Turn it up! Play "Into Deep"- Back to the hotel, If I hear that Booming on Thursady Ill know it's you and come running, It will be The equivlant to Batman seeing the Bat sighn in the sky at night for WhiteChocolate!

Ty- when you say you have a Free air sub vented on the top??? I don't understand? I though a Free Air sub was a sub that was mounted on a board with no box or encloser and it vented all over the place???? Please expalne

Ty
If that's what you have is a Sub mounted to a Board. Why did you decide to do a Free Air Sub?
and not a Enclosed box.

thanks G
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       08-13-2003, 3:14 PM Reply   
actually you have a point becuase the cavity behind it is not sealed...it is a baffle board with one side on it. it absolutely rocks, especially on "back to the hotel"...
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-13-2003, 3:41 PM Reply   
If your into big arse ambiant bass download Faithless - Donny X it is very nice.
Old    whitechocolate            08-13-2003, 3:52 PM Reply   
Darren Im going to get it now Kazza Action. Im going to start a New Thred Above songs that Beat.

Fathless: The same group that does "Insomnia" aka I cant get no sleep and "God is a DJ"
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-13-2003, 5:36 PM Reply   
Yes, the same. The lastest album outrospective is there best work IMO.
Old    whitechocolate            08-14-2003, 8:33 AM Reply   
Ty- From the Photo" it looks like you can reach around the right side of the board and touch the back of the sub? Is that how your sub is mounted. Cause I didn't think Orion Made a FREE Air sub. But You say your's is sounding good What ever works!

You were saying somthing about the sub sonic Filter cutting Lower Feq's and this would tighten up the bass!

I have found this to be completley the Oppisate
IMO if you want the Bass to be tighter you need to turn down the freq' so that the higher freq's don't creep into the sub, Causing it to move more than it's made to do. I have my W7's running like at 15-25 HZ if I turn up the Freq's higher to like 35-40 you can start to hear more than bass you can start to here Vocal's and the bass become's more more sloppy.
it dose bass more but for me thats not what it's all about It's more about Clean accurate bass. and if its is sloopy down low whats it going to be like a volume 10

When My'n is x-over to like 15-25 HZ is a real Deep clean thump.
I know alot of subs don't like to work down real low 10-20 HZ I guess its more of a Case By Case thing what works for me might not work for You

For Chuck: I would try to get it x-over to around 20-Hz and turn the Gain up. and then just keep turning the freq up till it starts to break or you hear and Vocal's then turn it back a notch. to cut out the Vocals Completley

I have also found the Amp gains and the Freq's work against each other, Example The Higher your Gain's the Lower your Freq's need to be. If you have the gains turnd up past Half you need to have your Freq's turned down quite a-bit.

Tuning your system is HUGE I am just learning. Most of my install were quite straight forward and you could Tune a system by the book. as the Audio equipment as changed and become more advanced. Tuning is a Whole new game. Its almost a trade in itself for me its the worst thing about a Install. there as so many variable's
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       08-14-2003, 9:07 AM Reply   
the right side is boxed in and you cannot get to the back of the sub. you cannot hear sub freq's below 18, just feel it. freq's below 35 will cause the sub to have higher excursion causing the output to drop and be looser because there is no control or suspension to hold it back. you cut those freq's and it will tighten up the over extension and make it way louder. as far as the w7, it is designed to play at those level and can handle extreme power handling also. set the crossover to play between 30-80 or maybe a high of 100hz and it will sound killer. any high end sub designed to play in a large vented enclosure will do well in a free air. stay away from the kicker free air though.

Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       08-14-2003, 9:08 AM Reply   
chuck, tell me how it sounds when you change it and play it out on the water.

Old    holbywan            08-14-2003, 9:37 AM Reply   
Grant,

I think Dave answered your question but . . Make sure to build a box that is within the cubic foot specifications (mine was 1.75 cubic feet enclosed) at first (Kicker 12" solobaric). Run at 2 ohms if you can (you will need to do some research)! Then stuff that sucker full of polyfill (you can use pillow stuffing from a fabric store if you want to save some money). Let er rip. Even with polyfill, the bigger the enclosure, the better. It was an engineering nightmare to meet manufacturers specs and at the same time allow some foot room.

Wow, N 2 Deep? Put your ear to the window facing San Mateo this evening.

-Chris
Old    chuck kober (onealrep)      Join Date: May 2002       08-14-2003, 9:41 AM Reply   
Thanks for all the input...I'l play around w/ it this w/end and see if I can improve it a little. I have the sub amp cossed over around 100 right now, I'l try turning it down and see how that sounds.
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       08-14-2003, 9:53 AM Reply   
80-120 works well. optimally you want to be 80-100...whatever sounds best. remember though, it will sound different and better on the water.
Old    whitechocolate            08-14-2003, 10:34 AM Reply   
Ok Ty:: I know what your talking about! Yes I have see subs do this at Low HZ and yes it sucks or sounds like crap. Not all subs do That, If I was to Put my W7 up where you suguested it would not sound as good, like I said It starts to Move or Make bass at the slightest note with it crossed over above 50-70 hz, With it crossed over real low 15-35 it doesn't seem to move untill there is a real Bass Note so when you have it turned up loud The bass isnt going crazy and all the notes dont blend together. Each Bass note is diffrent. I had noticed with some House Music the Bass beat has several notes in one hit or boom, So the tone changes in the middle of the beat, Most rap or hip hop songs just have one Note thump's
Thats where I thik SPL style woffers work better for the single note thumps.
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       08-14-2003, 10:47 AM Reply   
the w7 would be awesome tuned to 15-80-90 hz and would rock. i would bet though that in your installation your sub is tuned to about 30hz. it will play lower but very quietly. if I am correct, that sub requires a very large enclosure and is preferably vented. in order to run at the 15-18 hz level it would have to be around 2.0 cu feet or larger which is tough to do in a boat. the larger the box, the lower it will play. my home sub is a 15" in a large enclosure that will play down to 16hz. it is very large and vented.
Old    Chaun Keating (big_poppa_pump)      Join Date: Apr 2002       08-14-2003, 11:28 AM Reply   
OK, question. I am redoing the system in my X-star and I am hoping to put this to a vote.

Should I keep the existing Signal Processor or do you guys think I should toss it. I am not quite sure if this is going to help me or hurt me in the long run. It would seem to be nice to be able to tune in the freq instead of working with set X-overs, but I really don't know the reputation of these things.

Here is going to be the set-up.

Clarion Amp 4x40 w/channel -> 4 6in Clarion coaxials.

Jensen 2x150 w/chanel -> 2 6 in Clarion/ 2 Bose 151 (in series) so 2 ohm loading

Fosgate 450S - mono to 1 JL 10W3v2 @ 4 ohm load.
Fosgate 550S - mono to 2 JL 10W3v2 (parallel) @ 4 ohm load.

All subs will be sealed enclosures, not ported or free air.

The amps have HP/LP/AP settings, so maybe I should just forget this processor?

Here is a pic of it:

signal_processor

Also, have any of you used any "tuning" cds such as the ones made by Autosound. If so do you think they were helpful or just a waste of $20.

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