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Old    Chris Walker (redsupralaunch)      Join Date: Aug 2002       12-18-2009, 1:57 PM Reply   


http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories/2009/12/14/daily53.html
Old    Stephen Higgins (srh00z)      Join Date: Jun 2003       12-18-2009, 3:24 PM Reply   
Truly the end of an era.
Old    "G" (grant_west)      Join Date: Jun 2005       12-18-2009, 4:19 PM Reply   
How many boats do you think ended up with this motor?
What is the GPH of this 8.1L motor Vs a 5.0L motor?
Old    Chris (rio_sanger)      Join Date: Apr 2007       12-18-2009, 5:07 PM Reply   
Yes very sad end of the big block era.
The 8.1 is just a stroked out version of the tried and true bullet proof 454.

“Although it bears older technology by today’s standards, the reliability, ease of maintenance, and the overall quality of this engine have made it a steady performer for many years." - True that!
I have it in my Suburban with 190,000 miles on it, running like new. With 340 hp and 455 ft. lbs. of torque, it gives it a tow rating of 12,000 lbs. It will out pull most anything on the road and even gives diesels a run for their money.
I can only imagine in a boat it would be an absolute brute with such low end torque. Not sure about fuel consumption in a boat, but my truck gets about the same mileage I got with my previous Suburban with a 350 5.7 liter in it, lousy!

On the bright side, I guess this means they will start putting diesels in all the smaller motor homes now

(Message edited by rio_sanger on December 18, 2009)
Old    Chris (rio_sanger)      Join Date: Apr 2007       12-18-2009, 5:45 PM Reply   
I wouldn't be surprised if the 350 (5.7l) is the next engine to be discontinued, they stopped automotive use of them in 1998, and are only used for marine and industrial purposes.
The 6.0 and 6.2 may very well become the new stock norm for wakeboats.
Old    Stephen Higgins (srh00z)      Join Date: Jun 2003       12-18-2009, 8:41 PM Reply   
An LS2, LS3 or one of the truck derivatives would be great in a wakeboat in my opinion. They make great power and are pretty reliable. I have been tinkering with LS motors for years and they are awesome.
Old    Peter_C (peter_c)      Join Date: Sep 2001       12-18-2009, 9:48 PM Reply   
I had the 8.1L in my Suburban. It ran like a champ. A big block will actually get the same if not better mileage than a small block towing. The gear ratio has more to do with fuel economy. I have never owned a small block powered vehicle, only big blocks.

When I bought my truck in 2001, gas was $1.43 a gallon

Although it is sad to see the end of an era, the future should hold some remarkable improvements now that they are being forced to improve.
Old    Jim Zarin (jimmy_z)      Join Date: Jun 2009       12-18-2009, 10:58 PM Reply   
GM's new 6.2L is better, lighter and has better mpg.(403hp 417lbft torque)

Out with the old and in with the new.

Technology is great isnt it!!!!!
Old    Mikeski (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       12-18-2009, 11:06 PM Reply   
Stroker. They need to offer a good 383 or 406 cubic inch high torque stroker in our boats. I like the new motors but they tend to be too peaky for our needs.
Old    Bret (wakeride26)      Join Date: Dec 2006       12-19-2009, 8:46 AM Reply   
you can get a LS3 in a Malibu for 2010.
Old    Tim C (lifetimewarranty)      Join Date: Oct 2008       12-19-2009, 9:02 AM Reply   
I'm not an expert, but it is my understanding that the vortec 8.1 is a much different animal than the vortec 7.4, in much the same way that the 6.0 differs from the 5.7.

It is way more stout - I believe.

I have towed a bunch with a Suburban with the 8.1 and I can say that it is a great engine and super reliable. That Sub has 200k on it with no engine issues.

Pulled 14k toy hauler up the grapevine from LA in 100+ temps with ease.


I'll miss this option - but I really agree that the new 6 liter engines are awesome and fully capable
Old    GD (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       12-19-2009, 10:27 AM Reply   
snoring.
Old    Jeff Moore (jeff359)      Join Date: Jun 2005       12-19-2009, 3:38 PM Reply   
I've owned a few 454 based 3/4 and 1 tons, vortec and otherwise. I currently have an 8.1 in my motorhome. I love big blocks. But their time has come. The current LS series motors and the progressing tech of diesels has rendered them dinosaurs.

I will say my 8.1 RV with an Allison trans, kicks ass over any other large displacement gas engine ever made. The Ford V10 is good (I own one), but the 8.1 is a monster.
Old    Aaron Ware (99_slaunch)      Join Date: Oct 2005       12-19-2009, 3:54 PM Reply   
The ls motors are killer. My wife's daily drive(02 WS6)LS-1 with cam and heads puts down 460hp at the rear wheel. The fuel economy is great. The ratt motors were/are great but they are out dated.
Old    Brian (TXSurf) (bac)      Join Date: Feb 2008       12-19-2009, 4:01 PM Reply   
That is sad. Those were some hella strong motors.
Old    Chris (rio_sanger)      Join Date: Apr 2007       12-19-2009, 5:19 PM Reply   
I know the LS engines are more efficient, but will they prove to be as dependable and durable as the cast iron head big blocks? It's not uncommon to see big blocks with over 300,000 miles never having been rebuilt.
I guess only time will tell...
Old    Aaron Ware (99_slaunch)      Join Date: Oct 2005       12-19-2009, 7:13 PM Reply   
We are members on an ls site. Most of the ls-1 cars get their mods at 90k and up. I have seen many ls motors with over 200k and no one ever been in side the motor. Most of the guy's on the site beat their poor cars for all they are worth. The motors hold up but transmissions and rear ends are a different story.
Old    Jack (miljack)      Join Date: Feb 2006       12-20-2009, 8:29 AM Reply   
8.2 L in my Correct Craft , TONS of torque and it sounds great when I run it without the FAE.
The 8.2 is the older version of the 8.1, 8.2 is distributor engine, while the 8.1 is a crank triggered setup with individual coils.
I'll miss the big blocks, our tow sports boats are going to keep getting more expensive due to lack of production base for the engines currently in use. Maybe GM and Ford will start building some slightly smaller diesels for their 1/2 and 3/4 ton trucks.
Old    Chris (rio_sanger)      Join Date: Apr 2007       12-20-2009, 9:50 AM Reply   
Ahhhh Jack,
You're bringing back memories of the dry stack era I grew up in. I agree, nothing like the sound of an uncorked 502!!

The death of the big block is another signal that the "work on it yourself" era is coming to an end.
With all the computer management systems in todays engines, you need to be a computer tech instead of a mechanic...
Old    Nate (norcalmalibu)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-20-2009, 10:49 PM Reply   
love the motors! Nothing like the sound of a big block muscle car to give you chills down your spine! Nothing to be snoring about there..
Old    M-Dizzle (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       12-21-2009, 8:53 AM Reply   
Aaron is right on...the LSX series of 5.3, 5.7 and 6.0 are ridiculously tough from all the research I have done. (I am looking into putting one into my Nova).

There are a few guys who are trying to break the "world's fastest stock longblock" record". Right now one person has a 6.0L LSX with a cam and twin turbos pushing around 15 psi...he is running low 9's in a 2800lb car and has multiple passes on it. Its not uncommon to easily get 600+ horses to the rear wheels with these motors and stock bottom ends.
Old    Sam Ingram (wakeboardsam)      Join Date: Jun 2008       12-21-2009, 1:49 PM Reply   
Why don't boats use a turbo? It would be very, very easy to cool since you could just use lake water...
Old    Eric (wakeboardin2k4)      Join Date: Sep 2006       12-21-2009, 6:49 PM Reply   
Turbos get up over 1000 degrees. I am positive I don't want anything thats over 300 in my engine housing.

If you try and cool a turbo with water you are going to look more like a steam powered boat than a gas powered one.
Old    Jeff Moore (jeff359)      Join Date: Jun 2005       12-21-2009, 7:49 PM Reply   
Turbos create huge heat. Eric is right. You'd need a way to cool those turbos. One of the reason you don't see alot of turbos on boats. You kind find them, but it's hard to run turbos on a boat.

In cars you have a huge front end (when compared to boat), you need a huge radiator area to cool the turbos.
Old    Aaron Ware (99_slaunch)      Join Date: Oct 2005       12-21-2009, 8:21 PM Reply   
Don't forget about turbo spool. There is too much lag IMO for a boat. No brakes to bring up boost. A 6.0 iron block with a comp-cams RV cam would be great in a boat.
Old    JUST-IN-TIME (justintime)      Join Date: Mar 2009       12-22-2009, 12:37 AM Reply   
volvo penta bough the rest of the stock up

they told us 3 months ago
Old    Darren Yearsley (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       12-22-2009, 1:08 AM Reply   
"One of the reason you don't see a lot of turbos on boats" Isn't pretty much every diesel powered boat have turbos? Is diesel turbo charging and petrol turbo charging generate different amounts of heat?

Super charging could be a good option for the 6.0 petrol motor.
Old    Sam Ingram (wakeboardsam)      Join Date: Jun 2008       12-22-2009, 6:46 AM Reply   

quote:

By Eric (wakeboardin2k4) on Monday, December 21, 2009 - 6:49 pm:
Turbos get up over 1000 degrees. I am positive I don't want anything thats over 300 in my engine housing.

If you try and cool a turbo with water you are going to look more like a steam powered boat than a gas powered one.




The turbos that I have seen on SBC's and BBC's in V-Drive hot rod boats are water jacketed and you can put your hand on them and not get burned. Do a search for the name "unchained" along with turbo and you find this guy's eliminator boat with twin turbos. If you build the motor and prop the boat correctly you can have minimal lag and it would work very well for a wakeboarding boat...

It's very easy to cool the turbos because you can just use a raw water pump and a water jacketed turbo housing...

Upload
Upload

I tried to find a good photo of the turbo, but they are hard to find. This is Unchained's engine. You can see the heat shroud around the water jacketed turbo. You can also see the water line running to the turbo and the oil return line used for oiling...
Old    Jeff Moore (jeff359)      Join Date: Jun 2005       12-22-2009, 6:51 AM Reply   
Where's the intercooler? Seems like you couldn't run enough boost to make it worth it without cooling the intake air
Old    Eric (wakeboardin2k4)      Join Date: Sep 2006       12-22-2009, 7:42 AM Reply   
You could run an intercooler like try do with superchargers where it's built into the intake manifold and run a heat exchanger that is cooled by water.

That's true about the diesels having big old turbos on them but I would think because of the size difference of the engine compartment vs that of a wakeboard boat would be why a hot turbo would be dangerous. That being said what Sam posted is pretty cool! I've never seen that!

Ski nautique had that 196 with the lightning motor in it that was supercharged. With the entire industry using GM small blocks you could run the same blower that the Joe Gibbs trucks are running. 8lbs of boost on a 6.2l gm sbc shoul make over 425 I would think? Maybe even more?
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       12-22-2009, 8:07 AM Reply   
How much is a turbo 6.0L going to cost? Give me a 6 cyl Yanmar, Cummins, CAT turbo diesel over that. You would get 2-3k hours out of those and burn half the fuel.
Old    Sam Ingram (wakeboardsam)      Join Date: Jun 2008       12-22-2009, 12:52 PM Reply   

quote:

By Brett Yates (polarbill) on Tuesday, December 22, 2009 - 8:07 am:
How much is a turbo 6.0L going to cost? Give me a 6 cyl Yanmar, Cummins, CAT turbo diesel over that. You would get 2-3k hours out of those and burn half the fuel.




Why not just use a good old Vortec 5.7 liter, or even a Vortec 4.3 liter V6? You could crank the turbo way, way up and reprop the boat. You could run lots of boost because you can easily keep it cool with lake water... Diesels are very heavy, expensive, and smelly... Plus you would have to add diesel fuel at all the lakes while they already have gas. I doubt you will see any Cummins 6BT's in a boat under 25' anytime soon, a turbocharged 4BT maybe.
Old    Jos (jtnz)      Join Date: Sep 2007       12-22-2009, 3:56 PM Reply   
New diesels aren't smelly, expensive yes but so is a turbo LS2. Heavy, who cares it's a wake boat. An iron Chev 350 weighs 600 lbs with accessories. A diesel 6 probably around the same, plus it's a better engine for pulling the boat out.

If I was building a boat today I'd put a diesel motor in it.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       12-22-2009, 4:36 PM Reply   
That is exactly what I was thinking Jos. I just looked up some of the specs on a 315hp Yanmar 6cyl turbo intercooled engine. It weighs about 900lbs. What does a 6.0L weigh? It may only have 315 hp but it has 700lbs of torque. I have to imagine that even if you slam the boat and you will be able to run a bigger prop and still yank out of the hole pretty damn good. Weight won't affect mileage as much as a gas engine propped for the low end. My father put these engines in his 40' Tolly. He was replacing 440's and started burning about half the fuel as the 440's. I am not sure Yanmar's and other new diesels are really that smelly or loud. The efficiency and longevity would pay for any of the upfront cost.
Old    Sam Ingram (wakeboardsam)      Join Date: Jun 2008       12-23-2009, 8:30 AM Reply   

quote:

By Jos (jtnz) on Tuesday, December 22, 2009 - 3:56 pm:
New diesels aren't smelly, expensive yes but so is a turbo LS2. Heavy, who cares it's a wake boat. An iron Chev 350 weighs 600 lbs with accessories. A diesel 6 probably around the same, plus it's a better engine for pulling the boat out.

If I was building a boat today I'd put a diesel motor in it.




Yes, in theory, until you see the price tag on that engine package. The EPA requirements for diesel are now a lot tougher too. Don't tell me it doesn't smell, my wife has had two TDI Jettas, a Bluetec E350, and now she has a TDI Liberty and they all smell!

Everyone bitches about the price of new boats try building one and putting a Yanmar in it...

Yanmar Marine Prices

PCM Marine Prices
Old    Eric (wakeboardin2k4)      Join Date: Sep 2006       12-23-2009, 8:40 AM Reply   
So it's been stated that we can get water to cool the turbo but what about cooling the headers for a turbo set up?

How do diesels do it?
Old    Rob.B (rbeckei)      Join Date: May 2007       12-23-2009, 8:59 AM Reply   
Holly crap, I can't believe the prices on the Yanmar marine.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       12-23-2009, 9:25 AM Reply   
If you were like Travis or the CIE crew who puts a ton of hours on their boat with it dumped I bet they would recoup all the extra money spent on the Yanmar. Plus the Yanmar has FWC so it would be more desirable for someone in a salt environment. Resale probably wouldn't be as different as it is on larger yachts but because my dad put the Yanmar's in his Tolly he probably get 30-40k more when he sold it than he could of with the gas engines. It is probably tougher to get the resale out of it on a ski boat because diesel isn't so readily available on inland waterways. I think the diesel or a real high output option really only makes sense for someone with a bigger wakeboard boat or a boat that is normally run with a ton of weight. If you run a lightly weighted 21' boat you would never need anything more than a 340hp 5.7 or 6.0L.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       12-23-2009, 9:28 AM Reply   
For you guys who like the turbo idea here is a pic of a 1200hp big big block that has turbos. In the thread he runs 140mph in a 27 foot cat. He says he had to have everything water jacketed but that he has no problems with heat.

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/nordic/218617-2009-thor.html

Upload
Old    Stephen Higgins (srh00z)      Join Date: Jun 2003       12-23-2009, 10:52 AM Reply   
That is a beautiful engine. I love the mechanical look and symmetry of a nice twin turbo setup. I don't see the merit of having a high horsepower engine in a wakeboat, the torque I can understand and that is where a long stroke LS motor would work well.
Old    Sam Ingram (wakeboardsam)      Join Date: Jun 2008       12-23-2009, 11:56 AM Reply   

quote:

By Stephen Higgins (srh00z) on Wednesday, December 23, 2009 - 10:52 am:
That is a beautiful engine. I love the mechanical look and symmetry of a nice twin turbo setup. I don't see the merit of having a high horsepower engine in a wakeboat, the torque I can understand and that is where a long stroke LS motor would work well.




Turbochargers build torque too! Here is a dyno run on F-150 with and without a single remote turbo setup...



Upload
Old    Jeff Baker (innov8)      Join Date: May 2005       12-23-2009, 1:02 PM Reply   
IMO the new motors for wakeboats to replace the 8.1 will be 6 liter supercharged.
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       12-23-2009, 1:04 PM Reply   
What kind of hp and torque are those going to see? What in the hell is MC going to put in a the X55? The LY6 certainly won't do the trick if someone actually fills it with ballast and people.
Old    Sam Ingram (wakeboardsam)      Join Date: Jun 2008       12-23-2009, 1:42 PM Reply   
The Ford V10... 3-valve SOHC, 362 hp (270 kW) and 457 lb·ft (620 N·m). Have marinizing that one...
Old    Sam Ingram (wakeboardsam)      Join Date: Jun 2008       12-23-2009, 1:44 PM Reply   
What about the ZR409?

The ZR409, a 6.0 liter GM Vortec engine, makes 409 horsepower and when equipped with PCM’s famous Power Plus 1.23:1 transmission, an incredible 492 foot-pounds of torque.
Old    Nate (norcalmalibu)      Join Date: Jun 2004       12-25-2009, 5:45 PM Reply   
Nice gains on the turbo...You need to have a tuner clean up that truck..

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