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Old    Steve (skongolf)      Join Date: Aug 2009       11-14-2009, 12:59 PM Reply   
I did some searching and looked at a lot of wiring diagrams on here, but didn't find what I needed so I am wondering if anyone may have a diagram or would sketch me one for my boat set up. I have one that Phil sent to me, but I wanted to add some to it and want to be sure I do it the right way. Basically this is what I will be putting in:
1) Sony or Kenwood HU
2)30A relay
3)Arc 1000.2 amp to tower speakers
4)Arc 400.4 amp to 4 Kicker 6.5 speakers
5)one pair of Kicker KMT6 tower speakers
6)PAAC inline volume control for tower amp
7)Perko battery selector
8)on board charger (Already installed for 3 battery set up)
9) May add a sub later.
Anyway, if someone has a minute or two and could sketch one out and post it or send me a link where I could find one, I would really appreciate it. Everyone on this board has been a huge help so far.
Thanks
Old    Mark Manzo (tazz3069)      Join Date: Aug 2008       11-16-2009, 7:40 AM Reply   
What would the relay do???? You might want to give David at www.earmarkaudio.com a call he is full of good information.
Old    Steve (skongolf)      Join Date: Aug 2009       11-16-2009, 8:20 PM Reply   
In the past, Phil at Kicker had said a relay would take care of any possible noise issues. A few other people had mentioned their use to. Searched again for some diagrams, but still didn't find what I am looking for. Could really use the help. I am trying to get this done by Christmas as a present for my girl friend.
BTW. I am probly gonna go with a Pioneer DEH 4000 or 4100 deck since they have 4v pre outs.

(Message edited by skongolf on November 16, 2009)
Old    Brett Yates (polarbill)      Join Date: Jun 2003       11-16-2009, 8:25 PM Reply   
Are you sure that is a gift for your girl?
Old    J B (bjeremi)      Join Date: Mar 2006       11-16-2009, 8:45 PM Reply   
That's def a beefy enough amp for your tower speakers.
Old    Steve (skongolf)      Join Date: Aug 2009       11-16-2009, 8:52 PM Reply   
Got the ARC 1000 for $100 :-) Yes its for my GF. She is the main boarder and wants to hear tunes while she boards. I am the driver and resident face planter.
Old    Billy (woreout)      Join Date: Aug 2006       11-17-2009, 12:12 PM Reply   
Dont you want your GF to get pregnant?
Oh wait you said "diagram"
Old    Steve (skongolf)      Join Date: Aug 2009       11-17-2009, 1:04 PM Reply   
OUCH!!! Uhhhh and to answer question, not only no, but hell no!! We want to enjoy retirement!!
Old    Johnny Neves (johnny_jr)      Join Date: Mar 2006       11-17-2009, 1:22 PM Reply   
Messy, but I think this will work for your setup.

application/mswordUpload
System wiring Diag.doc (32.8 k)
Old    Johnny Neves (johnny_jr)      Join Date: Mar 2006       11-17-2009, 1:25 PM Reply   
Amps, head unit and PAC should all get power and ground from the same location in order to cut down on any possibility of engine noise. IMHO there is not need for a relay when only running 2 amps, again IMHO.

good luck feel free to PM me if you have any questions.
Old    Phil White (philwsailz)      Join Date: Feb 2009       11-18-2009, 7:08 AM Reply   
Hey Johnny-

Just to clarify, the original power wiring schematic I shared with Steve only had a relay in series with the radio power wire, so he could use the stock accessory or stereo switch to energize the relay to provide clean power from a common positive source as shown below. With two amps I agree, there is no need for a relay on the turn-on circuit.


Steve-
I want to point out that for the radio power wiring, the yellow wire needs to go straight to the unswitched power source, preferably right at the amp. You want to be able to switch the red power wire from the head unit, not the yellow wire.

I have modified a sketch I made previously. The original sketch showed three amplifiers and a relay on the turn-on lead. I have cleaned up the sketch for a two amp system, so if you see some little chunks of red and blue in the lower right, it is where I removed the third amp from the sketch. Steve, this schematic shows you my best recommendation for a two amp install, using a single big power wire between the amps and the battery, and using distribution blocks to split the power wire to the two amps. Disregard the arrow pointing to an invisible relay to the right of the H/U; it referred to a relay I removed while modifying the sketch...


Upload
For your installation with the on-board battery charger and Perko switch, you have a lot of choices in how you utilize the switch, so I have left that off for simplicity. The sketch below shows best practice as we know it today specifically for the amp and radio power.


For your RCA cables, use front and rear between in-boat and tower speakers respectively as Johnny shared. On the LC-1, you may find that when you are pulling a rider that you want the in-boat speakers lower than the tower speakers. If that turns out to be the case, you want to put the LC-1 on the in-boat RCA cables, not the tower RCA cables. If you want to have the ability to turn the tower speakers up and down, the LC-1 can be put on the tower amp RCA's, but if by chance you really only want to be able to turn the tower speakers completely off, a simple on-off switch on the blue turn-on lead for the tower speakers amp will work real well too.

Hopefully this helps!

Phil
Kicker

(Message edited by philwsailz on November 18, 2009)
Old    Steve (skongolf)      Join Date: Aug 2009       11-18-2009, 9:05 AM Reply   
That does help alot!! The only thing I am still wondering is how to integrate the Battery switch with a second battery. I guess I would just run the House battery as shown then add a starting battery to the Perko. All power leads from the amp going to the common on the Perko correct? Or just run the amp power straight to the House battery?
Old    Phil White (philwsailz)      Join Date: Feb 2009       11-18-2009, 3:28 PM Reply   
Steve-

There are SO many different ways to incorporate a battery switch it almost deserves its own thread. I do not want to go in deep, but here are a few scenarios.

1. All loads connected to bat switch.
This allows you to start the boat and run the stereo from whichever battery bank is selected, but you then your alternator only charges the selected battery bank unless you change the switch to ALL. The boat's circuitry and the stereo circuitry are always connected together.

2. Stereo connected directly to house battery, and the rest of the boat connected through Perko
In this situation the stereo cannot discharge the house battery UNLESS the Perko switch is set to ALL. The motor can start from either battery bank that is selected. You still have to be mindful of the switch position to make sure you are charging where you want to.


There are no doubt more scenarios, but for every scenario, use of a Perko switch REQUIRES you to think about what you are doing, for operation, for charging, for starting... It can be intimidating. Accidentally switch to OFF while your motor is running and you will likely blow your voltage regulator diodes.

I prefer using a device called an Automatic Charging Relay, (ACR) instead of a Perko switch. There are a few out there from different brands but the basic principle is this:
Connect your stereo to a dedicated stereo battery bank.
Connect your boat wiring to a dedicated starting battery. The two systems are wired separately. Install the ACR. The ACR is a "smart" device that senses a charging voltage. When a charging voltage is present, the relay closes and allows the charging voltage to go into both batteries. When the charging voltage is removed, (i.e. when you turn the boat motor off) the ACR senses it and opens, effectively separating the two batteries. At that point the stereo is drawing juice off its own battery, and not discharging the starting battery at all.

The ACR makes a dual battery system goof-proof. The starting battery is always there and ready to start the boat. You can run the stereo completely dead, and still start the boat. You do not have to think about if a Perko switch is on 1, or on 2, or on both... You do not have to think about not accidentally switching past OFF. You don't have to think about anything, 'cause the ACR does it all for you. Automatically.

I like the Blue Sea Systems model 7610, but there are others, and I have not used others. DO some shopping and consider an ACR instead of the Perko switch... You will probably be pleasantly surprised.

Phil
Kicker
Old    Steve (skongolf)      Join Date: Aug 2009       11-18-2009, 6:01 PM Reply   
Any other ARC's you would recommend? Blue Seas is a little out of my range right now. What about a yandina? I guess it is considered a battery combiner.

(Message edited by skongolf on November 18, 2009)
Old    Phil White (philwsailz)      Join Date: Feb 2009       11-19-2009, 8:41 AM Reply   
I am not as familiar with other brands, although I think I recall someone else mentioning the Yandina. Do a little research, but try to stay away from any diode-based battery isolators. There are other people here with other recommendations on good ACRs.

On the Blue Sea, check Peter Kennedy Yacht Service; I got mine there at quite a good price. I wonder if they still have them?

Good luck, I bet we will figure it out!

Phil
Kicker
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       11-19-2009, 10:28 AM Reply   
I'm a big advocate for an ACR, VSR or combiner/separator depending on which label you're using. Beyond the convenience, they can also serve to protect your alternator from suddenly being introduced to an inordinate load which could consist of a depleted stereo battery(s) in combination with a large stereo which could overtax and overheat a smaller alternator.

But seldomly are things really simple and these devices are not totally infallible. Its difficult to predict the habits of every boat operator in a variety of boats with different charging systems with a broad range in audio systems size and current draw.

An ACR (VSR, etc) may not close until it sees 13 or more consistent volts depending on the time frame. While open the stereo battery will not get an alternator charge. Here's just one example of what can lead to this condition. If you've played your stereo at rest for awhile and you've nearly depleted your stereo battery(s), and you continue to run your stereo after starting the engine, and you have a fairly short distance back to the trailer, especially at lower RPMs, then its possible your ACR will never combine the banks for alternator charging. The relay may momentarily close but reopens if the voltage drops below 12.5 volts for 10 seconds. You may be putting your boat into storage with a depleted stereo battery(s). That's particularly bad on the battery(s) and disappointing for next week's outing.

So I highly recommend an AC shore charger. You should have one anyway. A dual bank charger will keep you from overcharging your starting battery while restoring the stereo bank.

The trigger that normally serves to isolate the banks during engine cranking can also be used to keep the banks permanently isolated during AC charging and maintenance. You can also avoid the minimal current draw by rewiring a conventional dual battery switch to provide three distinct functions:

1.) ACR Automatic Mode. This is where you'll be most of the time so you can ignore the ACR while it does its job.
2.) Emergency Bypass. Only used when the starting battery has a defect or is dead.
3.) AC Shore Charging. Manually keeps the ACR open so the independent banks of the charger are not circumvented.

We like the SurePower. Many like the Blue Sea or Yandina. Just don't go too cheap.

The above way is not the only way to go but is comprehensive and takes into consideration all the potential issues we've experienced.

There is only one way that you should wire a simple dual battery switch and that is with everything running to the common post and nothing going directly to the batteries. The exception might be a bilge and pump and float switch if your boat is not stored on a lift.

With an ACR, VSR, etc, ALL of the stereo source and amplifier power wiring should go directly to the stereo bank. This often requires removing the stereo away from the factory harness. The alternator feed and helm buss will remain on the starting battery.

These comments only pertain to small boats. The charging systems of cruisers are very different.

David
Earmark Marine
Old    Steve (skongolf)      Join Date: Aug 2009       11-20-2009, 8:20 AM Reply   
Thanks for the info David. I am starting to lean more toward the Sure Power or the Yandina after reading up on other posts. With the stereo set up I have listed above, can I get away with the 100 amp, or would I need to go bigger. I am not planning on bridging my amps, just run them at straight 2 and 4 channel respectively so I am looking at 300 watts to the tower and 200 watts to the boat speakers. I also have an onboard battery charger that is supposed to charge the batteries while running. I think it was on there for the trolling motor set up which I dont use at all. I always trickle charge my batteries before going out as well.
Old    Earmark Marine (david_e_m)      Join Date: Jul 2008       11-20-2009, 11:00 AM Reply   
Steve,

I'm a little confused over "...an onboard battery charger that is supposed to charge the batteries while running." Other than the alternator I'm not sure what you could be describing. If it was for a trolling motor then I would assume its an AC shore charger?

BTW, you should apply a charger immediately after an outing rather than waiting until just prior to the next outing. This routine is kinda critical for battery longevity.

For now, I would proceed with the simplest route. I like your initial plan. As you add more complexities nothing in your original outline would go to waste.

David
Earmark Marine
Old    Steve (skongolf)      Join Date: Aug 2009       11-20-2009, 1:41 PM Reply   
This is the on board battery charger I am talking about:
Upload
It is supposed to charge the 3 batteries while running, but I am not sure how efficient it is.

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