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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-11-2009, 8:10 PM Reply   
Two pound EPS foam. Hotwired the rocker, cut the rail bands and 'cave.

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-11-2009, 8:17 PM Reply   
I had Mike Daniels build us a coil and was impressed with the use of the "microfibers" around the perimeter. An example coil:

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-11-2009, 8:26 PM Reply   
Channel Islands does the same "sort of" thing and call it a double helix.

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-11-2009, 8:33 PM Reply   
The concept is that Carbon tends to be too stiff and while the rebound is GREAT, it resists flex and can actually create a weak point just inside the CF. The "microfibers" are most likely nylon or polyester. Dennis turned me on to sheetrock mud support webbing. It has a glue on one side so that I can stick it to the board, while laminating it to the board.
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-12-2009, 4:15 AM Reply   
That interesting Jeff. I found this selfadhesive tape for drywall joints http://www.tamadex.cz/webcz/menu/kat/obr/mrizka.jpg
but orientation of fibers is not diagonal! And usually made from fiberglass.
Its from Fiba Tape company which also produce some constructions mats and screens against insects.
http://www.sgtf.com/Home/Products/Brands/FibaTapeBrand
It confuse me that you call it microfiber which is usually thermal insulation in jackets etc. I guess its hollow fiber.
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-12-2009, 4:35 AM Reply   
btw have you seen Kelly Slaterís Dual Stringer Tangent? With some carbon strip I guess...
http://blog.cisurfboards.com/2009/09/03/kelly-slaters-dual-stringer-tangent/
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-12-2009, 5:36 AM Reply   
Hey Petr,

That's the stuff I'm using, but the material I found is plastic not fiberglass. I think technically a microfiber just needs to be synthetic and measure less than one denier. Doesn't need to be hollow or have any specific purpose.

I did see that Tangent, I was theorizing that the black was CF and was hiding something like a blank of balsa. The location is odd though, the tail has nothing and it looks to stiffen the middle of the board, so I'm not following that conceptually. Do you have any theory about the location of that black strip?
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-12-2009, 6:48 AM Reply   
Jeff I have absolutely no idea whats going on. Looks strange.

Back to Coil - here is some discusion on sway with ripped pieces of board:
http://www2.swaylocks.com/node/1028009?page=2
http://www2.swaylocks.com/node/1028009?page=2#comment-1331767

so basicaly its vacu bag 2lbs stringerless EPS, with more glass than regular board and some unwoven fabric between glass layers (therefore more white look), but it looks like the top layer seems to be hand laminated with polyester resin. !?!?

antoher links with details
http://forum.surfermag.com/forum/showflat.php?Number=1471504&page=0

http://www.eastcoastsurfer.com/reviews/coil/index.html
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-12-2009, 6:53 AM Reply   
Maybe that Tangents tail is more springy, also fins maybe looks positioned more twards the nose or its just optical illusion of wide lens
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-12-2009, 7:10 AM Reply   
few shots of Tangent - at video down on this page http://espn.go.com/action/surfing/blog?post=4446309

and

http://surfermag.com/av/flash/channel_islands_kelly_slaters_tangent/

(Message edited by hawaj on September 12, 2009)

(Message edited by hawaj on September 12, 2009)
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-12-2009, 7:43 AM Reply   
I saw that post when it hit and it makes sense. If you read between the lines, the guy talks about the "mat in the core" and it sure LOOKS like coremat. :-) Although, there appears to be an almost woven orientation which I though was maybe an imprint of the inner and outer glass, but it could be that mat is a really loosely woven FG.

I don't doubt that the exterior is PE resin, epoxy doesn't polish worth anything. I've tested PE over Epoxy and it seems to adhere well and polishes nicely.

That tangent is interesting and creating a blank with straight stringers would sure make the blank build process easier.
Old    Brian (TXSurf) (bac)      Join Date: Feb 2008       09-12-2009, 8:04 AM Reply   
Jeff, does that yellow Channel Islands board just have fiber wrapped rails? or is it throughout and just exposed on the rails? Hard to really see them on my phone. That Tangent looks interesting. Do either of you know the reasoning or theory behind the straight stringers? Is that center piece carbon or something else?
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-12-2009, 8:27 AM Reply   
Hey Bac, if you read the marketing propaganda, they describe the process as: cutting the rails off the shaped board, wrapping the rails in the microfiber and then reattaching it to the center or core of the board. So internally, it's foam (they say a special polyu blend) but the rails include a vertical section where they reattach to the core.

The tangent is a odd looking duck. In looking at the black stripe in that first URL Petr gave us, the outline looks just a little wavy like it's fabric. My guess is it's CF, but without seeing it upclose and personal I'm strictly guessing.

I read somewhere that the straight stringers are supposed to rebound more directly than a curved perimeter stringer. The curve, when the board flexes, isn't in line with a turn but is more "twisted" and so when it rebounds, it loses some engery in untwisting. I have no idea if that's accurate.
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-12-2009, 10:06 AM Reply   
bigger pics of CI DH stick

http://mckevlins.blogspot.com/2009/04/double-helix.html

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_8_Ezc5XTPno/SdZLZhhyaZI/AAAAAAAAATs/DBROKdCqbQs/s1600-h/Picture+004.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_8_Ezc5XTPno/SdZLP07yMtI/AAAAAAAAATk/NARlK4rsd6o/s1600-h/Picture+001.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_8_Ezc5XTPno/SdZLIoWK1jI/AAAAAAAAATc/E4ZAk2ZArW0/s1600-h/Picture+003.jpg
https://secure.killerdana.com/killerdana/product.asp?pf_id=10257046&s_id=0

http://www.tommytant.com/images/auction_helix2.jpg
http://www.tommytant.com/images/auction_helix3.jpg
http://www.tommytant.com/images/auction_helix3.jpg
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-12-2009, 10:12 AM Reply   
TXS I dont know, maybe he got stiff rails, more torsion flex and soft nose and tail. But why that big black centerpiece??
Whay they call it Tangent?
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-12-2009, 11:26 AM Reply   
Whay they call it Tangent

Because it sends your mind OFF on tangents. :-)

I have the first layer of deck lamination down and I put the webbing down first. In my testing, the webbing didn't stick well to epoxied fiberglass, nor an unsealed blank - raw foam, but a sealed blank worked well. I think it has to do with the surface contact - the more the merrier, so to speak. :-)

This is the first side with the webbing stuck down. You'll see relief cuts around corners and where it wanted to bunch on the rails.

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-12-2009, 11:29 AM Reply   
I attached the webbing along the bottom of the rails - flush with rocker. Then worked from the back forward - cutting when I got a bunching of the material. This is what I started with.

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-12-2009, 11:30 AM Reply   
Both sides with the webbing down, ready for fiberglass.

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-12-2009, 11:32 AM Reply   
If I ever do this again, I'll vacuum bag it, some of the webbing wanted to undo, so I had to really work the fiberglass down HARD. One bright spot was that the webbing sort of snagged the fiberglass and held it in place, even in the wind.

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-12-2009, 11:34 AM Reply   
Laminated and waiting for the epoxy to cure.

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-12-2009, 11:38 AM Reply   
What the webbing does is move more resin out to the rails. The voids between the web fill with resin and also provide a bit of structure to this extra resin so that it doesn't chip so easily. The extra resin still retains the shape of the rail without associated fabric changing the overall matrix. Pretty interesting concept. My guess is that when cured, the rails will be stiffer than just plain 'glassed eps, but nowhere near as stiff as epoxied carbon.
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-12-2009, 1:48 PM Reply   
Ok, but why both, Coil and CI, use webbing in diagonal layout and not same way like you Jeff?
All other stringerless boards with CF rails has diagonal orientation of fabric as well.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-12-2009, 3:23 PM Reply   
...because my tape was 2" wide :-) I can imagine that there is some benefit to running it on a bias, but it requires substantially more width that I had available.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-12-2009, 4:02 PM Reply   
Something that just occured to me on the Coil. They aren't lapping the rails. They build that board in a bag and the tuck UNDER on the lap is miserable inside the bag. It wants to bridge or bunch unless you have an intensifier or a pleat every 2.5 inches. :-) If you look at the rail of a P5, the foam is rounded and the deck laminate is tucked under, but the rail from the apex down is built up of PE resin and then shaped out. The bottom skin is afixed and then I'd bet routed off in one operation. The Coil boys I'm willing to bet do something similar, but stop the lap at the apex of the rail so there isn't any tuck, then cover the whole thing up with the webbing and some extra resin. That's a great work-around.
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-12-2009, 4:04 PM Reply   
I know Jeff, but I am still thinking that it is maybe important detail
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-12-2009, 4:15 PM Reply   
I don't think the bias does much beyond ease in wrapping the compound curve. The later flex is what you want to limit and so uni carbon would be enough. However, aligning that would be a bear.

Laying the fabric on a bias to conform to the compound curve will cause the fabric to lay smoother and easier than if the warp and fill are at right angles to it.

One of the most common uses is in garments - if you read through this article, it talks about how the bias cut lays smooth over curves - doubly so on the compound curve of the rail.

http://www.threadsmagazine.com/item/3745/bias-101
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-12-2009, 6:07 PM Reply   
The final deck lamination is on and curing. Should be ready for some SICK :-) resin swirls tomorrow. :-)

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Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       09-12-2009, 6:30 PM Reply   
less is more
Old    dtw. (notsobueno)      Join Date: Dec 2004       09-12-2009, 6:48 PM Reply   
Did your truck used to be black, like the rear of your dog?
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-12-2009, 7:06 PM Reply   
@ Show - was that a commentary on my resin swirl talents? :-)

@ dtw - LOL, isn't woofie funny? He's always got EPS on his butt. When I am shaping, he comes out and joins me - mostly because I scratch him, but he also likes laying down in the eps dust. It must be soft or something.
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-12-2009, 7:14 PM Reply   
EPS is "warm" because its perfect thermal isolation
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       09-12-2009, 7:21 PM Reply   
Yes, lighter colors too.
Mix your resin and catalyst. Divide clear epoxy. Add color to divided epoxy. Maybe keep some clear epoxy. Poor colors in to the same container and give a half to two stirs. Poor on the board. Possibly fill open spots with clear. Squeegee to laps. Wipe the squeegee clean before each pull. Pull each area once and only once.

(Message edited by Bigshow on September 12, 2009)
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-12-2009, 7:52 PM Reply   
@ Petr - that has to be it, like a down comforter for a dog. :-)

@ Show - I didn't buy any additional colors, I'll have to turn the shop upside down, I thought I had some additional colors.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       09-12-2009, 8:13 PM Reply   
Just use clear and red then, black sparingly.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-13-2009, 7:38 AM Reply   
It's art! No correct way :-)

Although I did find blue, purple and white. :-)

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Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       09-13-2009, 7:44 AM Reply   
Are you applying on bare glass or well after the first shot of epoxy on the glass?

These lighter colors look better to me.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-13-2009, 8:38 AM Reply   
That's basically a hotcoat. Laminating the webbing was a bit of a challenge by hand.
Old    mobster            09-13-2009, 8:54 AM Reply   
That one game out nice Jeff
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-13-2009, 5:58 PM Reply   
nice Jeff
Old    Lakewakes Wakesurf Boards (brewkettle)      Join Date: Jan 2009       09-14-2009, 3:41 AM Reply   
looks great , let us know how it rides with the special webbing
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-14-2009, 7:25 PM Reply   
Thanks guys. Finished the deck tonight. I'm rather in awe of the difficulty of doing the art work. I have no affinity for this sort of thing, which doesn't help, but choosing coordinating colors, developing a pattern that is pleasing to the eye and effects that don't look muddied are a challenge. I gained a deeper appreciation for the quality art we see on custom boards.

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Old    wardovision (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       09-14-2009, 7:34 PM Reply   
Don't apply art to your base layers and then lay your fiber first then apply art. Thank me later


(Message edited by caskimmer on September 14, 2009)
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-14-2009, 7:39 PM Reply   
Yeah, the process is well documented...I had some dofficulty with the webbing on the rails and did the resin swirl as a hotcoat. If I did the webbing again, I'd bag it
Old    wardovision (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       09-14-2009, 7:47 PM Reply   
oops, i skipped the pic of you putting the layer of glass down.
Old    wardovision (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       09-14-2009, 7:51 PM Reply   
and I still want one of these shapes.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-14-2009, 7:57 PM Reply   
Easy to mistake, I didn't do a great job of detailing the entire build. Heck Sean, you can build it better than I can! I should have you make ME one. :-)
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-16-2009, 7:33 PM Reply   
3 pounds 15'ish oz - 2 pound foam, no stringer, no boxes in fact just holes, 2 x 4 oz top, 1 x 4 oz bottom.

Second set of photo's is just the weight of 5 pound high density foam in the approximate dimensions of 4'6" Tad over 2 pounds for the foam alone...no glas or resin.


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Old    Timmy! (timmyb)      Join Date: Apr 2007       09-16-2009, 8:28 PM Reply   
...sidebar...how many freakin boards do you have? It appears that you have so many that they are just laying around on the driveway, the garage floor, leaned up against various things, etc!?!?!?
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-16-2009, 8:30 PM Reply   
Yes - that many. :-)
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-20-2009, 6:13 PM Reply   
Solid board. Rode very well. The stringerless EPS behaved nicely and the webbing with the extra resin on the rails adds a bit of snap that you can feel. I think it's a great alternative to stringers, not sure that results in any net weight savings. I'd like to try it with a bagged lamination.

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Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-20-2009, 10:44 PM Reply   
shaping - testing - and its working. Congrats Jeff
Old    Lakewakes Wakesurf Boards (brewkettle)      Join Date: Jan 2009       09-21-2009, 10:30 AM Reply   
thats great Jeff, now you have built stringerless boards before right?
Old    Lakewakes Wakesurf Boards (brewkettle)      Join Date: Jan 2009       09-21-2009, 10:34 AM Reply   
i do think that webbing comes in white as well
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-21-2009, 11:12 AM Reply   
@ Hawaj - It just opens so many more doors, I find myself asking a bazillion more questions with each minor success.

@ Brewkettle - yeah, I've done stringerless, but was intrigued by that Coil. I mostly wanted to see if the webbing added anything to the board. You could feel it snap back - Bre indicated it had the same pop as James' parabolic wood stringered board. It also spun really easily. James did several reverses and I personally did a few threes - if I can hit one, it's a good day. :-) I can't even begin to imagine how the webbing could affect surface rotation, but I'm at a loss to point to anything else...the shape and fin placement is all the same.

I noticed that the webbing comes in a bunch of different colors - I think each signified a different function or "speciality".
Old    Lakewakes Wakesurf Boards (brewkettle)      Join Date: Jan 2009       09-21-2009, 11:22 AM Reply   
i think you are just getting better at doing 3's
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-21-2009, 11:28 AM Reply   
Well next week will be telling, if I go back to sucking, then it was the webbing! :-)
Old    Lakewakes Wakesurf Boards (brewkettle)      Join Date: Jan 2009       09-21-2009, 1:23 PM Reply   
lol heeee

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