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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       08-05-2009, 5:55 PM Reply   
I sold two boards from here on wakeworld, accepted paypal and the yahoo takes the dark colored board out in 110+ degree heat for most of the day hours and claims it delaminated.

I tell him he was negligent and long story short he reverses the paypal payment. So now, he has both my boards AND my money. Paypal just said - tough we don't care.

If you get a referral from someone here on WW to sell a board to a friend it's a scam - they are criminals.

Also, never use paypal to accept payment on a used board.

I just hate how some people are.

(Message edited by surfdad on August 05, 2009)
Old    Not Sure (no_really)      Join Date: Jan 2009       08-05-2009, 6:28 PM Reply   
Karma will come around. Sorry to hear about that. I will take note of the PayPal tip-thanks.
Old    Frank Wolter (wofrankwo)      Join Date: Jul 2009       08-05-2009, 6:29 PM Reply   
wow that sucks, being in business for yourself is always a learning experience, ill add that 1 to my list of 1000 different ways you dont get paid, thanks for the info as we have an internet business also accepting paypal and will keep that in mind
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       08-05-2009, 6:35 PM Reply   
PayPal has a seller protection program, but it's very strict and I screwed up. The first thing is if it's over 250 you have to get a signature, they didn't sign. The next is that you have to send it to the address of the person purchasing it - I trusted them, my second mistake, the guy tells me that he doesn't have a paypal account and his buddy will pay for it....those two things invalidate the sale and the crooks keep the product AND your money.

I was naive, my bad, but I'll never use paypal again this glitch in their operation helps perpetuate fraud and theft.
Old    Brian (TXSurf) (bac)      Join Date: Feb 2008       08-05-2009, 6:56 PM Reply   
Wow, that stinks Jeff! Sorry to hear it happened!

This is one of the reasons I despise paypal! I refuse to use them after too many bad experiences. Used to sell alot of classic and hot rod parts on the side. Had a guy tell paypal I shipped him an empty box. nevermind my shipping receipt to him with posted weight, tracking number and date shipped, I was sided against, lost my money and a part. I have also been hosed as a buyer. Paypal doesn't care as long as they see a fee or can at least lock up your funds for a few days to get a little more interest off your money

Karma will come around!

(Message edited by bac on August 05, 2009)
Old    Joe B (sailing216)      Join Date: Oct 2007       08-05-2009, 7:01 PM Reply   
Sorry to hear that Jeff. You instructed myself before hand about the extreme temperatures and care for these handmade boards, so I'll bet you let them know as well.

Terrible what they did. I too need to be more cautious. Next time tell them to send a hard check and when it clears you'll send the board and everyone on here knows your good for it.
Old    mobster            08-05-2009, 7:20 PM Reply   
I have had no problems using pay pal The Used board's are in good condition & a good price . The problem with wake surf boards is the heat & some don't think about that when they are out on a lake sweating bullet's also there is always someone working a scam, sorry to here about it Jeff .
Old    Ricardo (gunz)      Join Date: Sep 2001       08-05-2009, 7:39 PM Reply   
Someone who posts here?
Old    Johnny Stieg (jstieg)      Join Date: Apr 2007       08-05-2009, 8:10 PM Reply   
dang thats super lame. i havent ever had any issues i sell boards using paypal all the time.
Old    dtw. (notsobueno)      Join Date: Dec 2004       08-05-2009, 8:45 PM Reply   
Dad, who is it? Me and Country Dick will go after them the old fashioned way....
Old    Derek (ds3)      Join Date: Jun 2008       08-05-2009, 9:45 PM Reply   
Wow. That sucks, sorry SD...
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       08-05-2009, 10:33 PM Reply   
That sucks, but its not paypal. I have used paypal for years, but I also have many clients that we setup various bankcard services for. We have used just about all of them, and even setup private label credit card systems. Even if you take mc/visa as a merchant, the buyer can do the same thing, it is called a chargeback and you have to fight it. But many times, you don't want to, because if you get too many chargebacks and issues, a bank can stop allowing to accept mc/visa. So you end up being so careful, and many times don't fight chargebacks even when you know you are right.

On top of that, if you are a largely unknown internet retailer, if you want to take bankcards, you usually have to keep a months worth or 3 months worth of receipts in the bank. The bank requires this in case your customers start reversing charges. Once you do business with the bank for a while, and they see you are legitimate, they slowly ease off.

Now paypal allows you as a small business or individual to accept all types of payments, which puts THEM at greater risk, since you as the receiver don't really have any. This is why they charge the 3% fee. They mostly are very fair, with all of the crap I have seen, they are one of the best. The thing is, fraud happens MOSTLY in the other direction, sellers cheating buyers, so I am sure they lean in that direction.

So your other options are to take a check, they can bounce it. Take mc/visa, they can still reverse the charge, and you have to fight the ISSUING bank for the money, its a HUGE PITA. Take cash and just make sure its not counterfeit. So if you don't want to take cash, paypal is about the best method, you just have to keep to their guidelines, and definitely ONLY ship to the paypal verified address, that is key.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       08-06-2009, 4:40 AM Reply   
PayPal has a very strict seller protection progarm and if you don't adhere to it, you're toast. I have sold 4 things using paypal over 8 years - I just didn't pay attention and THAT is my fault.

However, PayPal does allow a buyer to defraud a casual seller like myself. After I saw the handwriting on the wall I started checking and apparently it's a pretty common method.

First, if the item being sold is valued at more than $250 you HAVE to have a signature FROM the buyer. So you can't send it to a large business where the receptionist signs it - if that happens - they can reverse it. There is no way to know that from the verified address. So you may do your homework and still get ripped off.

Second, you have to ship to the verified address like Robert states. I'm so trusting, I sold a board to Joe B and collected the money later when I saw him at Nationals. You have to follow PayPal rules to the letter or you're toast - the buyer forwarded an email showing the different address and PayPal said at that point, not covered. So the things like - can you ship to my work/vacation/home/neighbors address which sound innocent, will void the seller protection that PayPal offers and criminals get good at it. I won't be at home during the day can you ship it to my work address - NOPE! My wife will sign - NOPE! We are headed on vacation can you ship it to the lake address - NOPE! Plus let's be honest, there is no way after you've shipped to know who signed.

I sold two boards, PayPal will not reverse a partial transaction, so the buyer "claimed" to have a delam problem on ONE board, but they reversed the entire amount. The lesson here is if you sell multiple items, do NOT take a single payment...actually, I'll never use PayPal again and I'm sure it's fine for large retailers (they have a separate program for large retailers) or NON-casual sellers, however, it's a trap for the casual seller like myself.

So for me, I'll toss a used board in the trash before I do this again, but if I ever do sell a board, it will be local pickup only AND cash only.

PayPal offers tons of protection for the buyer and that's their primary market - they will reverse a transaction in a heartbeat for those folks. It seems they offer tons of protection for LARGE sellers also, but you have to enroll or pay some fee. But for the inexperienced guy like me, what is my average - 1 item every 2 years, it's too riddled with loopholes and I'm not going to research it once every two years to see what changes they've made to the policy, it's just not worth it to me.

Cash or cashiers check only, local pickup only OR
throw 'em in the dumpster is my motto. :-) I think the bigger thing for me is I forgot that it's not just wakesurf folks anymore. We used to have this great group of people that you could trust with the keys to your house, but like JL stated, there is ALWAYS someone out there working a scam and their in our backyard now.
Old    Rob Flaherty (mc_x15)      Join Date: Jul 2008       08-06-2009, 5:25 AM Reply   
Sorry to here, some people are just scum.
Old    Rob Flaherty (mc_x15)      Join Date: Jul 2008       08-06-2009, 5:49 AM Reply   
or... your have his address, might be time for a road trip. just one mans opinion.
Old    Daniel (cowwboy)      Join Date: Jul 2008       08-06-2009, 6:12 AM Reply   
Sorry to hear that man.
I also have friends who have gotten screwed as buyers and the seller empties the account right away and paypal tells the buyer there is nothing to reverse. So next time transfer it to a account you don't use much and there is nothing for them to take back.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       08-06-2009, 7:14 AM Reply   
yeah...I think the service is riddled with the potential for abuse like cowwboy and Txsurf indicate. Rob...I swear I'd love to take some of this frustration out on those folks!

However, I don't have the address...precautionary for folks that still want to sell/collect using PayPal (and as an aside I guess there are other services that address this theft issue as an alternative to PayPal). The guy who bought the boards tells me very casually, I don't have a paypal account, but my buddy does he'll send you the money, but you ship the boards to my work address. THAT is the first part where I screwed up - the guy who paid for the boards, isn't the buyer so he just says - I didn't buy anything or nothing got shipped to me. PayPal reverses it, PERIOD. They do NOT care if it's a scam. So the very first thing is if there is MORE than one person involved, it's a scam - run for the hills.

The guy who paid for the boards had a telephone number in one state but a verified address in another state. The most common method of theft is they say - gee I JUST moved, can you send it to me here at my new address. You have to send to that verified address and you have to SELL and COLLECT from the person that is buying AND you have to get a signature from the person buying no one else if the value of the item is more than $250. I have the tracking info and proof of delivery, but it's not signed by any of the folks involved. PayPal says - clearly stated in paragraph IV, section 85, item (1.b.iii) you need to get a signature from the BUYER accepting the delivery. Sheesh.

I'll just never use PayPal again, in my opinion they assist thieves. I think the vast majority of folks are honest, but the truth is you don't know until you've been ripped off.
Old    Robert Garcia (ragboy)      Join Date: Aug 2007       08-06-2009, 7:33 AM Reply   
@daniel

oh yeah, my wife is religious about that, we don't leave money in that account. So that is a good tip.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       08-06-2009, 7:42 AM Reply   
Maybe that's the best way to approach the use of PayPal - just assume that with EVERY transaction you're going to be scammed - trust nothing about anything connected to the transaction. I just don't do business or live life that way. Easier and more akin to my character to just never use PayPal again.
Old    Ricardo (gunz)      Join Date: Sep 2001       08-06-2009, 7:42 AM Reply   
So it wasn't someone from here?
Old    Blair J (rhawn)      Join Date: Dec 2006       08-06-2009, 7:42 AM Reply   
That sucks Jeff, sorry to hear.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       08-06-2009, 7:55 AM Reply   
@ gunz, the referral to the buyer was someone from here and they (hiding gender) have aplogized to me and asked if there is anything that they can do. Whether it was inadvertant or not, they are involved. As I noted above, I think the best way to protect yourself when using PayPal is to ASSUME everyone involved is a criminal. Some of the best advice I have ever recieved is: "You can't make a good deal with a bad person". Following that advice and assuming that everyone connected with a PayPal transaction is a crook, I'd never use PayPal.
Old    Anthonyv911 (tonyv420)      Join Date: Jul 2007       08-06-2009, 10:06 AM Reply   
Wow sucks big time, sorry to hear about that transaction. I will take your advice and not use paypal. I had a similar problem with them a couple years ago. I eventually got my $$$ back after a 30 day wait. By the way I heard you and James are gonna come up for the first NWWSA open in Aug. Can't wait to see James rip! He's one of the top riders in the country IMO.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       08-06-2009, 10:14 AM Reply   
I think that buyers are protected if you are buying from a reputable company like Wake9, MoB Group store, WO's folks like that. I'll never accept it again though, I mean I didn't read the bazillion pages on the "terms of service" I just clicked the OK button :-) when I signed up. That's my own damn fault.

Yes we are headed to Washington at the end of the month. Grace is such a great lady and from what I have heard the organizing efforts are really coming along nicely. We have to run early on Sunday as James starts college on that Monday, but we'll be there for the activities Friday and Saturday...I need to start that who's going thread. Thanks tonyv420 for the compliment on James, he's a fine young man and I'm very proud of him
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       08-06-2009, 11:39 AM Reply   
Jeff,
That totally sucks man! Sorry, I've had similar stuff happen with a boat sale. Hope you either figure it out or the person grows a spine and gives you the money!
Old    CJB (goodwin)      Join Date: Feb 2006       08-06-2009, 11:42 AM Reply   
Be careful with PayPal. They always seem to side with the buyer, seems kinda assbackwards with lots of loopholes. I know a eBay seller that was scammed just like Jeff, buyer claimed he never got the item. My buddy called PayPal and ranted for over an hour, finally got to a supervisor and was told this is a known issue but nothing was going to be done about it.
Old    Ryan Rantz (airrantz)      Join Date: Jun 2004       08-06-2009, 1:11 PM Reply   
Isn't the WW member that referred you to the buyer obviously involved. I'd be slandering them all over the board until they A got you the boards back from their buddy or B got you paid. We all should at least know who this member is so other people can avoid the same fate. I say call em out but that's just me. I gave up on paypal years ago when they didn't have 24 hour customer service so when my account got hacked into and the hacker started pulling funds out of my checking account I couldn't do a thing about it til the next morning. Then they have the nerve to keep the money in the account until my "dispute" is resolved (up to 90 days). Really?? Someone from a Vietnam IP address changed my password and it takes up to 90 days to determine if it's fraud or not. Don't know if they have changed or not but if you have your credit card info attached to your paypal account and that info gets stolen online that and your e-mail address are all someone would need to reset your password and control you account.
Old    wardovision (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       08-06-2009, 2:35 PM Reply   
Yeah, Jeff you don't owe that person any favors. If you don't get the money for at least one of the boards you should give up the name of the person who referred you to the buyer.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       08-06-2009, 2:39 PM Reply   
Hey Ryan, I don't know that for sure, but it would sure seem that way. Right now I am trying to figure out what legal remedies I have available to me and if I am screwed then I'll hang these folks names out.

The problem though, is that anyone can create any name here on WW so even if the name is flushed out, they can set up shop 2 minutes later.

The key to the fraud working is that there is more than one person involved. If you get someone that seems really genuine, but they ask you to accept money from someone else, or ship to another address or ANYTHING that involves - "my friend will buy this", it's a scam and you need to just run away.

Personally, if you're asked to accept PayPal, I'd say NO.

I've talked with a supervisor at PayPal and they even acknowledge that it was theft and they told me, basically - well we're sorry, but we have our money so we are done. Sheesh. They literaly know that theft and fraud are prevelant.

Once I've checked into small claims if that isn't going to work for me AND if in fact any of the folks involved actually exist, I'll post all that up.
Old    wakechickwakeoutlaws (hgaugh)      Join Date: Apr 2007       08-07-2009, 6:54 AM Reply   
Just thoroughly disappointing to hear Jeff...sorry that it happened but glad you are making folks aware of what occurred!
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-07-2009, 7:56 AM Reply   
On eBay they allways strictly ship ONLY to address from PayPal, nowhere else.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       08-07-2009, 8:29 AM Reply   
Yeah that is one of the requirements for the Seller Protection, but there are a HOST of ways for a buyer to back out of payment - there is a HUGE loophole called SNAD = Significantly Not as Described. PayPal places the entire burden on the casual seller, so in this case the buyer says I needed a board that can withstand 200 degree temperatures - that's enough for PayPal to reverse the transaction UNLESS the seller clearly states in an email exchage - oh and by the way the board will NOT withstand temperatures greater than 190 degrees F. The buyer does not have to offer up any proof in the SNAD.

The Seller Protection program no doubt handles the vast majority of issues in a legitimate transaction, but if the buyer WANTS to scam you, PayPal makes it very easy.
Old    Mikeski (mikeski)      Join Date: Aug 2003       08-11-2009, 11:43 PM Reply   
Paypal BS can go both ways. I bought a speedometer for my truck as my gear indicator was burned out. His unit was in worse shape than what it was supposed to replace and did not work either. I filed a claim, he claimed to the buyer protection people that it must have been my truck causing the issue. Seems viable except I already had a speedo unit from another truck working fine so I know it was not my truck. So, I was out $150 , and the seller made $150 selling something that was trash. It just seems that us honest good folks seem to get screwed by aholes. That said I probably have 2 bad transactions and 600 good transactions over paypal.
Old    Wotan (wotan)      Join Date: Jul 2008       08-12-2009, 12:31 PM Reply   
PayPal reversed a charge to my parents business for $12k+ -- Buyer ended up with a piece of industrial equipment and a full refund.

Even worse? I'm a Jr. and paypal suspended my account and said I needed to prove that I'm a seperate person than my dad (yet have provided no method of doing this despite the fact we have a different legal name, different address, different SSN, and different bank accounts.)

PayPal is an awful, awful company.
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-12-2009, 3:20 PM Reply   
I think that PayPal belongs to eBay
Old    Brian (TXSurf) (bac)      Join Date: Feb 2008       08-12-2009, 4:25 PM Reply   
You are correct Petr. Ebay bought paypal a few years back and things got even worse
Old    mobster            08-12-2009, 5:02 PM Reply   
Every one has had a bad transaction on the internet from some vendor or credit card use. I use pay pal because my credit union does not offer a business account option, On our Mob Board sales we take a check for a deposit to start then the total upon delivery no pay pal. For small stuff it's cheaper than having to upgrade to a Business site
Old    sean Cummings (dollabill)      Join Date: Aug 2009       08-22-2009, 11:43 AM Reply   
Get an Inland board. They dont Delam! haha!
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       08-22-2009, 7:43 PM Reply   
So this is this Inland's offical response to personal tradegy? I get ripped off for two boards and $600 and IS uses that as an opportunity to spam? Nice.
Old    sean Cummings (dollabill)      Join Date: Aug 2009       08-23-2009, 3:59 PM Reply   
Wow., I wasnt trying to take it to that level.......... Just a simple statement. I as well have fallen victim to credit card reversals and sad part is there is absolutely nothing you can do about it... Its a risk in the game of credit card processing and paypal.
Old    Ryan Rantz (airrantz)      Join Date: Jun 2004       08-24-2009, 9:24 PM Reply   
Stay class Sean. Jeff did you get anywhere with the WW member?
Old    Sparky Jay (wake_upppp)      Join Date: Nov 2003       08-25-2009, 12:52 PM Reply   
PayPal BLOWS! I go out of my way to not use them anymore.
Old    Caleb Rountree (dlwsrider)      Join Date: Apr 2007       08-29-2009, 5:28 PM Reply   
Sean, that was low. Even if you were not trying to take it to that level, you did.

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