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Go Back   WakeWorld > >> Boats, Accessories & Tow Vehicles Archive > Archive through July 28, 2009

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Old    Travis (fman)      Join Date: Nov 2008       07-22-2009, 12:42 PM Reply   
I own a Supra, saw this article and thought I would post it up. Kind of interesting, answered some of my questions. Not trying to start a ballast war, just some information for people to read. There are pro's and con's to every ballast system, this article just had some good information in it.

Bags VS Tanks. We get all sorts of questions about this topic. Here we will answer a few of the common questions we get asked:

Why does Supra/Moomba use bags instead of tanks?

A bag system is actually a more expensive system that is more rider friendly. If you want a bigger wake simply take out the stock bag and put a bigger bag in. Up to 3200 lbs all with a flick of a switch. Did you know a leading competitor of ours has a stock hard tank system but offers an OPTIONAL, more expensive, bag system? With Supra and Moomba you have it standard.

Which is better, bags or hard tanks?

For the wakeboarder or wakesurfer, bags are better. Why? It gives you the option of having an upgradable system to have the biggest and best wake possible while still being plumbed into the stock system. Some of our competitors also still put their hard tanks in the rear storage compartments. You lose your storage all of the time when you have these. At least with bags, when empty, you can use ALL of your storage compartments.

Why do you not put your ballast under the floor?

Supra and Moomba do not do this for many reasons. Number one, under floor ballast tanks are TINY. Who wants a tiny ballast system resulting in a tiny wake? Number two, open bags are upgradable with the stock ballast pumps. Number three, open bags are more serviceable. Number four, what are you sacrificing if you put your tanks under the floor? Our stringers go there; where do our competitorís stringers go or do they have any at all?

Donít bags take up your storage space?

We are the first to admit, yes, bags do take up some of your storage space. Supra and Moomba improve on their bag shape and size every year so that the storage space in the compartments can still be used even with the ballast is full. If you had a competitorís boat with a measly 850 lbs of ballast, to match our wake a rider would want to add another bag in the storage compartment. This would take away storage space, most of the time more space than our bags takes up. Plus, wouldnít you want it all hooked up to the stock ballast pumps to fill all with a flick of a switch?

Why do I need a big ballast system? The stock system is as big as Iíll ever need.

Supra and Moomba and WAKEBOARD, WAKESKATE, and WAKESURF boats. If you want a small ballast system, no problem. We can take our ballast out or replace our huge stock systems with smaller bags. But why would you want to do that? Weíve never met a wakeboarder that doesnít want a big wake.

Letís compare the size of the stock ballast systems in the 22 ft range for a few of our competitors, most of which use hard tanks.



MasterCraft X-Star 865 lbs

Malibu Wakesetter VLX 1250 lbs

Tige RZ2 NONE

Super Air Nautique 220 849 lbs



Now Supras and Moombas:



Supra Launch 21V 1450 lbs

Supra Launch 22SSV 1450 lbs

Moomba Mobius LSV 1200 lbs

Moomba Mobius XLV 1450 lbs

So yes, our boats do come with more ballast. Do our boats need it? NO!!! But why not have it? After all, these are wakeboarding boats. Put any of our stock boats against a competitorís stock boat and I promise Supra and Moomba will walk away with a win every time.

I do think one of the MB boats now has a 2000 lb hard ballast system that fills in 60 seconds and the Epic boat has a 4000 lb hard ballast system.

After owning a Supra with 85 hours on it this year, my only con to bags is no gauges, and when you upgrade to a 750 lb rear corner bag you will loose about 80% of the storage space when the bag is full. Not a huge problem, but definitely a sacrafice, although you are getting 1500 lbs of weight in the rear of the boat which throws one sweet wave.

With the Z5 cargo rack you really dont need any storage for wakeboards, kneeboards, surfboards, or tubes in the boat. Everything can be placed on the rack which is a huge help when you go to the larger bags.
Old    E.J. (deuce)      Join Date: Mar 2002       07-22-2009, 12:47 PM Reply   
Wish I would have seen this before I purchased my SAN....

DANGIT!
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       07-22-2009, 1:05 PM Reply   
Yep, MB's new system dates that entire article.
Old    Travis (fman)      Join Date: Nov 2008       07-22-2009, 1:17 PM Reply   
I also know Calabria has the pure-vert system, but I believe its only about 700 lbs when filled. MB is definitely setting the bar with a 2000 lb system that fills in 60 seconds, that would be real nice to have.

Anyone have one of these boats? how is the wave for surfing with the stock ballast filled?
Old    Jacob Ruppert (jacobs0222i)      Join Date: Sep 2008       07-22-2009, 1:36 PM Reply   
you can get the tige's with 900 stock and you could always get them with ballast from the factory.
Old    DB (lakelife)      Join Date: Feb 2003       07-22-2009, 1:50 PM Reply   
2009 MB's actually have 2,500 lbs of stock ballast. Which is awesome. No I don't own an MB but they are sweet boats!
Old    Rob.B (rbeckei)      Join Date: May 2007       07-22-2009, 1:59 PM Reply   
You can get 1000lbs in a calabria pure-vert system

(Message edited by rbeckei on July 22, 2009)
Old    AtTheLake (bmartin)      Join Date: Jan 2007       07-22-2009, 2:00 PM Reply   
"Number four, what are you sacrificing if you put your tanks under the floor? Our stringers go there; where do our competitorís stringers go or do they have any at all?"

Yeah I guess my boat floor and engine must levitate without any stringers in there.
Old    rod (rodltg2)      Join Date: Oct 2005       07-22-2009, 2:13 PM Reply   
it seems like poor logic to me. im no expert on which is better, but that article doesnt seem to justify bags. it keeps mentioning that bags are upgradeble. then why dont hey just install the bigger bags in the first place. then the argue ment that under floor ballast is tiny? well Epic and Wakecraft seem to have quite a bit of under floor ballast. 4000lbs for Epic and 1600 pure vert for Wakecraft.
Old    Bill K (bill_airjunky)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-22-2009, 2:20 PM Reply   
Hmmmm, another candidate for the PWNed thread???
Old    Travis (fman)      Join Date: Nov 2008       07-22-2009, 7:12 PM Reply   
I almost bought a Calabria, I was told 700 lbs was the max they offered, must have been given incorrect information from the dealer.

That new system MB is using looks really nice. 60 second fill for 2,500 lbs is incredibly fast. And you cant argue not having any pumps is only an added bonus. Hopefully the gates they are using to open and close are reliable, that would be the only fault to that system if they got jammed in the open or closed position.

After owning a Supra this year, I upgraded to the 2000 lb ballast system for $200. Only because I like to surf and needed a little more weight in the corner of the boat. I believe Supra is using the 1450 lb stock system because for me most people that is more than adequate for wake boarding. With the 1450 lb system you loose very little space when filling the bags. The 1450 lb system only uses the 400 lb rear bags which are a lot smaller than the 750 lb bags.

The bag system works fine, but if I could have a 2000 lb hard ballast system I would take that over bags any day. The boats that I was looking at all had smaller hard tanks (under 900 lbs) and I did not want to have to buy an external pump and more bags to add weight to the boat. Its nice to hit the fill switch and call it good.
Old    GD (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       07-22-2009, 10:06 PM Reply   
IMO, PureVert or equivalent is the ONLY way to go. All other ballast systems pale in comparison.
Old    Tampa Wake (tampawake)      Join Date: Mar 2008       07-23-2009, 12:29 PM Reply   
PureVert or I think Axis(bu) did it right with the plug and play system. Hard tanks for us average riders then if you want to kick it just plug in some bags. Thats Brilliant.
Old    Mattt (motorcitymatt)      Join Date: Feb 2007       07-23-2009, 12:44 PM Reply   
Travis~
On MB'S if for some reason the tank doors don't open, you can open them manually with a standard allen(hex head) wrench. The ones that they use have the wrench right on the valve itself, it just snaps on to the side. The gates are super simple 12volt gizmoes. They're the same valves that have been used in high-end motorhomes for decades, to dump waste h2o with the touch of a button. Absolutely no drawbacks, no regrets, no problems with my MB. Couldn't imagine having 1400lb. water balloons on the boat... :-)
Old    BMG (wackbag)      Join Date: Feb 2009       07-23-2009, 8:59 PM Reply   
Some statements above were kind of cheezy such as the stringer comments. However there was some good points to the bag system.
Old    MCXSTAR (snork)      Join Date: Jun 2007       07-24-2009, 12:21 PM Reply   
Thinking of putting a custom hard tank in the rear compartment of my X-Star it'll hold approx 500lbs ea. and still have room for storage.
I wonder how many X-star owner are interested in it.
Old    supraguy            07-24-2009, 3:34 PM Reply   
I have a 22SSV Supra and dig the bags. I change them depending on who is ridding. With the 750's in the back and a extra 300 in the node the wake is DOPE, drain on side and the surf wake is killer to...... GO SUPRA I LOVE MINE
Old    Jason (cptsupra)      Join Date: Mar 2008       07-25-2009, 12:16 AM Reply   
I am currently researching the 2010 Supras and will probably be ordering one as soon as Skiers Choice starts accepting customer orders. Since their new system integrates a gauge into the console that is based off of pump rate and time, I will be interested to see how accurate it is. On my previous Moomba and current Supra, I have never missed a gauge, since it takes all of 10 seconds to visually check the bag capacities. I will not argue that the ergonomics of the hard tank systems in some of my friends boat is nice. The only con that I don't like about bags is the condensation on the bag that wets the carpet in the storage area.
Old    ICE-a (usostyle)      Join Date: Apr 2006       07-25-2009, 7:08 AM Reply   
Have owned both bags system and hard tank system-

Sold our '05 Supra 21v (that had the upgraded gravity games bag in front 1180lbs. and 750lb. bags in each rear compartment) and bought an Epic, primarily because of how much storage we lost due to ballast bags, both in storage compartments and extra bags littered throughout the boat on top of seats/on the floor/back deck etc.

NONE of that with the Epic. We LOVE the under floor 4000lbs option. Wife was SO refreshed to sell our ballast pump and all our xtra bags a couple of weeks ago...because we simply don't need them anymore.

"Thank you Epic for helping my wife and I get along while on the water, we don't argue anymore about- filling up/emptying extra ballast bags, having those extra ballast bags take up valuable storage and seating space, the amount of time we are 'wasting' filling up/emptying those extra bags...Our 'boating' marriage is much stronger (and peaceful) thanks to Epic!"

Just joking :-)...Kinda...Anyone in our crew (including our kids) can attest to the above statement...

The ballast gauges on the Epic are helpful, but it didn't bother us that the Supra didn't have gauges. Also, never did upgrade to the z5 rack, I really wanted the z5, but couldn't justify the $1,800 to purchase it.

There are things that we miss about our supra and things we love about our epic, but when it comes to the 'stock' ballast system and the wake that it creates (especially the goofey surf wake, 80% of our crew rides goofey), Epic got it right.

My two cents...
Old    TigeMike (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       07-25-2009, 2:04 PM Reply   
"Tige RZ2 None"

Glad to see the author did their homework
Old    Cody Kauzlarich (codykauz)      Join Date: Jul 2007       07-27-2009, 8:36 AM Reply   
My XLV came stock with 1950lbs of ballast. 1150 up front and 400 in each v-drive locker. I tossed the 750's in the lockers and its really nice. took the diaphragm springs out of the sprinkler valves and the whole setup fills in about 3-5 minutes even while sitting still. For my next boat i would definitely look at an Epic. Anyway, point being, I'm pretty certain the 22ssv comes with 1950 also and the reason why they don't come with the bigger bags is because they are rated for like 2100lbs; "passengers, gear, ballast." Doesn't make much sense for the manufacturer to offer more weight in ballast then the boat can hold, almost be as if they were condoning something thats illegal in some states.
Old    Tim (srock)      Join Date: Mar 2002       07-27-2009, 12:57 PM Reply   
Thats a stupid article. So what if its tiny under the floor I can always add more bags. You have more room when the bags are empty??? Why then have them at all. More expensive, come on bags are cheap so how much are you actually saving. Any valid points are lost when this much garbage is present. This type of article is bad for the brand.
Old    M-Dizzle (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       07-27-2009, 1:17 PM Reply   
What bugs me about the whole "tiny under the floor" argument is that we cannot do anything about that (as a consumer). Why not USE the space given even if it only adds say 400-500 lbs? Doesnt that get one extra bag out of the boat and storage areas? I would personally like to think that with boat makers realizing how much ballast are put in their boats they are trying to use as much space as possible efficiently and effectively so we are not stuck with unusable space.

I would also think that there would be different physics associated with using underfloor ballast as its not putting stress on the floor AND closer to the waterline hopefully helping combat a boat's "tippyness" from a rider cutting out. It seems logical to me that ballast under the floor may be much less severe in stressing the hull and offering a better pull. I am curious what some physics guys think of this.

(Message edited by liquidmx on July 27, 2009)
Old    plhorn (plhorn)      Join Date: Dec 2005       07-27-2009, 3:08 PM Reply   
I have hard tanks and wish I had bags because its so much easier to get to the bottom of the engine if the tanks weren't in the way.

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