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Old     (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       07-10-2009, 1:50 PM Reply   
Any tips on how best to learn these? I think it is such a sick trick, and I would like to take the least painful route in learning them! Would it help to do these at a slower speed 1 wake at first? I've heard the tips of having the handle out so you have leverage to pull at the wake, keeping the nose high, etc. but I was wondering if I can work up to it or just need to go for it w2w the first try.
Old     (ralph)      Join Date: Apr 2002       07-10-2009, 1:54 PM Reply   
I've done a couple inside out off the start roller. Haven't nutted up to try w2w. Maybe this season, I'd like to learn this and a proper method.
Old     (blabel)      Join Date: Jul 2001       07-10-2009, 2:09 PM Reply   
Learned it by trial and error and it may be different for each rider but here's my 2 cents:

Crouch low (no explanation, just helps)

Keep handle really close to your lead hip, almost twisting it to the side.

leave the wake and look behind you (away from boat) if you don't, you'll get hung up. At least I do anyway.

For me it's a completely blind trick so get ready for surprises.

I learned it wake to wake and it seems like it would be easiest that way to allow enough time. Also, maybe take a little weight out of the boat.For me, it's easier when the wake is smaller and not as steep.

This is really old but here's mine:
Old     (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       07-10-2009, 2:17 PM Reply   
Thanks Bro. Nice video! I think I can picture this trick well in my head, but I also see death waiting by digging the nose. Some have said to practice the pull and body position a few times before going for it so maybe that would give me some confidence. I'm kinda freaked about the first attempt!
Old     (blabel)      Join Date: Jul 2001       07-10-2009, 2:29 PM Reply   
Try it wrapped first. I never did but wish I did!

What do you mean by digging the nose?

The falls on this trick for me have been the surprise, land on your face backwards fall. Certainly not pleasant but it's generally wake to wake so not too bad.

Trust me though, when you land one clean or add a grab and land clean you feel like a million bucks!
Old     (kyle_m)      Join Date: Aug 2007       07-10-2009, 2:29 PM Reply   
eubanks i feel your pain on picturingthe digger on the first attempt i have been attempting to get over the mental barrier i have and trying this trick i can picture it in my head as being easy but i know coming down its going to suck i hope i get to try it soon, i was happy to see a post with tips on it =)
Old     (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       07-10-2009, 2:35 PM Reply   
Blabel - I mean pitching over and going out the front. From what I hear, that is the worst crash on this trick. And my tendency on spins it to spin too early and get pulled out the front so I'm sure I have a few of those in my future!
Old     (blabel)      Join Date: Jul 2001       07-10-2009, 2:40 PM Reply   
Hmmm, I've personally never done that on this trick. If anything, I get hung up and travel through the air nose high.

There will be lots of attempts where you get up there and just throw the handle. The fun part is anticipating how you're gonna come down.

Seriously though, try it wrapped.
Old     (codykauz)      Join Date: Jul 2007       07-10-2009, 3:00 PM Reply   
One thing you should try to do is wait super long before you rotate. Once you leave the wake look backwards and then once you peak over the second wake, rotate and try to pass the handle quick. the longer you can wait to rotate the less line tension there will be and then after a couple the longer you can hold grabs on them. Don't be afraid to wait to rotate, it is still only a 180.
Old     (wakeviolater)      Join Date: Sep 2004       07-10-2009, 3:05 PM Reply   
when i do them (and especially when i do a TS BS 3) i cut in hard to get speed, then let off my edge before the wake. then pop and pass. letting off edge releases rope tension and helps enormously with getting the handle. dont let off too much as to not clear the wake.

i also agree with leading the trick with your eyes (looking away from the boat). your body tends to follow where you look.
Old     (proho)      Join Date: Aug 2005       07-11-2009, 5:29 PM Reply   
It's all in the handle pass. Not a very tough trick IMO. When I was taught it, I was told to just ride behind the boat and practice yanking the handle with both hands behind my back to build up muscle memory. Then you just gotta go for it. It's just a 180 and you'll be landing on your heelside edge so there's not all that much going on. Just pop, wait, yank on the handle. If you can find the handle behind your back you'll get it. My first couple tries I just ended up riding away without the handle.
Old     (nelsonwakeboarding)      Join Date: Mar 2008       07-11-2009, 6:03 PM Reply   
I agree with waiting until you have reached the top of your pop to do the handle pass then making it quick. When I first tried learning these, I started with doing bunny hop blind 180s out in the flats - worked for me to get comfortable with the rotation and the pass.
Old     (seth)      Join Date: Sep 2002       07-13-2009, 5:30 PM Reply   
I learned with the rope as short as it could go. It helps to just pull on the handle a few times to get the feeling. Then you just have to commit to it. Once you do it is a pretty easy trick.
Old     (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       07-13-2009, 7:04 PM Reply   
Greg Nelson coming through with the tips.....nice!
Old     (alanp)      Join Date: Apr 2001       07-13-2009, 9:47 PM Reply   
keep the nose high on the take off, slightly higher than normal(you'll land like you take off, nose high and avoid the nasty crash) and pull the handle to your back. work on this first. just pulling the handle hard to your back and keeping your axis with the nose high. once you can do this, then go for the pass. all you have to do is get the handle and you'll spin the trick. i learned these at slow speeds, one wake inside to out. they are much easier than one would think
Old     (andy_nintzel)      Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Minnesnowda       07-14-2009, 7:15 AM Reply   
I see some good tips in here but I think I have a few very important things to add. I spin a lot TS Blind, its super fun but and fairly easy.

First off TS BS 180 is the new HS Backside 180. Its HOT HOT HOT! Spinning past 180 is even Hotter.

When I approach the wake I stay in a low crouched position with my knees fairly bent to get some good pop. One thing that I didnít see anyone say that will really help you out if your planning to spin past TS 180 is keeping your hands out from your body, pretty much the opposite of what Blabelmooch said. Not that, that method is wrong I just find it really hard to spin past 180 if my hands are in tight like a FS TS spin. For me I keep my amrs/hands out, body low, knees bent. The reason for keeping my arms out is that it gives me something to pull on, which allows me to advance myself towards the boat to get the spin going, like I said this is important if you wanna spin past TS BS 180. When I leave the wake I pump off/pop off it really hard and try to bring the trick up really high, it's super important to not pull the handle to start rotating until you are in the air. Once in the Air I Like to tuck my knees up right away or else you end up straight legging it and that looks horrible and kills your knees if you land like that. I like to Pass then Grab, typically I grab nose. The 180 happens almost instantly once you grab the handle, if you wanna keep spinning past 180, you have to keep you head going, the handle moving, and your hips rotating. To do this make sure you donít open up your arms at 180, most people open up and get ready to land you will never spin past 180 if you do that. Hope this helps, if you do it this way will make you more comfortable if your going to spin past 180 like I said. I have been spinning TS BS 180 for prolly like 5 years, always with my arms in tight, until 2 years ago. When I started trying to go to 3 with them I was getting just worked, it wasnít until I watch video of myself from the chase boat that I realized that it was my arms in tight that was working against me. Then I had a major hurdle of basically re-learning how to do the trick with a new body position.

One last thing, this trick is a major mind game, when learning it you have to get over the fear of turning your head away from and commit to the trick, this is really honestly the hardest part. Its very unnatural and everything inside the wakeboard part of your brain is going to tell this will make you hook your edge. You just have to power over it and go for it.
Old     (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       07-14-2009, 7:37 AM Reply   
This is a great post because I land about 50% of mine now by just using brute strength.

The key: you just gotta go for it and commit. The falls are not that bad. I have only taken 2 bad head whipped falls.
Old     (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       07-14-2009, 9:19 AM Reply   
Good to know guys. Thank you all for the instruction! This has been really helpful. I hope to practice the pop, body position, and pull next time out and get comfortable with that before I try to throw one. I think that will help give me some confidence.

I agree on the "new HS BS 1" Andy! I really like the look of the TS BS 1 and hope to get it down soon.

Thank you all.
Old     (andy_nintzel)      Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Minnesnowda       07-14-2009, 9:47 AM Reply   

Slams = Progression
Old     (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       07-14-2009, 9:59 AM Reply   
Agreed. They also lead to physical regression which leads to a shorter wakeboarding career! Trust me, I have paid my dues over the years and I even got scorpioned pretty bad the other night. Getting worked is part of the fun!
Old     (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       07-14-2009, 11:48 AM Reply   
Yup. Overrotated a 180 I threw too early and caught a bellringer. Still, it wasn't that bad. ANd if you're not getting slammed, you're not moving forward!!

Like parks said, It's just water. Throw it!!
Old     (froese)      Join Date: Jun 2005       07-14-2009, 11:57 AM Reply   
Would it help if I scrub my video archives and post one of those NASTY falls of Gene's???

Old     (brhanley)      Join Date: Jun 2001       07-14-2009, 12:00 PM Reply   
I second Andy's tip; I read the same tip posted by him on WW last year -- keep arms out so you have somewhere to pull from and advance to the baot -- and it really worked to make my t/s b/s 1's better and helped me come much closer, more consistently on t/s b/s 3's. I disagree, however, on it being the new heel b/s 1; it's a harder trick that you don't see too too often, but I personally like throwing heel b/s 1 much better...cleaner and blind landings...maybe I just need to figure out how to grab the toe b/s 1 more consistently....
Old     (stew_barns)      Join Date: Oct 2008       07-14-2009, 12:58 PM Reply   
I would add one last thing... When I learned this trick I was taught to grab the board (tail) and then pass, in doing the grab it brings your hand around right to the handle and makes life a whole lot easier. I think it is harder to do this trick without a grab, so I would learn it with the grab because not only should it make your life easier you will also look better doing it
Old     (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       07-14-2009, 1:40 PM Reply   
Jerram - I love seeing Gene getting sure! I only remember his crow mobe domination. Was there a TS BS 1 in the mix as well?
Old     (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       07-14-2009, 1:43 PM Reply   
So when do you guys pull on the handle? It looks like most folks I see start pulling going up the wake, but then obviously wait to reach for the pass until they are well into the air. This is what helped me tremendously on the HS FS 3...the pulling earlier (going up the wake part).
Old     (froese)      Join Date: Jun 2005       07-14-2009, 1:54 PM Reply   
I'll check. I think I have a BS hit, but don't remember if it is HS or TS now...
Old     (froese)      Join Date: Jun 2005       07-14-2009, 2:03 PM Reply   
Found it :-) Toe Bak 3 hit... I have to regenerate the file and get it back online.
Old     (froese)      Join Date: Jun 2005       07-14-2009, 2:25 PM Reply   
Don't do this (or think it):
Old     (blabel)      Join Date: Jul 2001       07-14-2009, 6:11 PM Reply   
Nice one! Been lucky enough to not do that fall on the 180.

The 3 on the other hand....

Sorry for the poor quality.
Old     (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       07-14-2009, 8:40 PM Reply   
ha! good memory there Jerrom. Can you see me fumble the handle twice and get it right before I slam? Thanks for putting that in my memory bank.
Old     (garret_s)      Join Date: Apr 2006       07-14-2009, 8:51 PM Reply   
The best advice on TS BS I ever got was approach with arms out, and tug hard on the rope while you are traveling up the wake. This will slack the line enough for you to make the pass. I haven't spun past 180 on ts bs, but this worked like a charm for me...
Old     (andy_nintzel)      Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Minnesnowda       07-15-2009, 8:39 AM Reply   

I went out last night and did a bunch of TS BS spinning I would say I pull on the way up the wake and puch the board into the wake with both feet to bring the trick up not out.
Old     (torontothunder)      Join Date: Feb 2009       07-15-2009, 8:55 PM Reply   
I saw this post a couple days ago and decided to try this trick tonight...super fun trick!

I would say pull the handle in on your way up the wake makes the handle way easier to get.

Old     (helix_rider)      Join Date: Mar 2003       07-16-2009, 11:49 AM Reply   
That looked really smooth...was that your first one? I'm going to have to try this W2W...I've only done it out in the flats.
Old     (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       07-16-2009, 12:14 PM Reply   
Nice! That video looks great.

I hope to get my first attempts on film this weekend. I'll let you guys know how it goes next week.

Andy - Thanks for the tip. I'm finding out that pulling up the wake is really the key to good on-axis spinning. This is what did it for me finally on the HS FS 3.
Old     (torontothunder)      Join Date: Feb 2009       07-16-2009, 1:11 PM Reply   
Yeah bro, that's the first one I have ever done. It took about 5-6 tries.. No hard falls learning it. I would just spin it and ride away without the handle. Good luck!!
Old     (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       07-16-2009, 1:21 PM Reply   
Nice, your form looks really good. I hope to repeat your process, but I think mine will come with more attempts and more hard falls!
Old     (somebuddy)      Join Date: Jun 2009       07-16-2009, 1:49 PM Reply   
Cool. You guys got me all excited to go stomp one! Too bad I don't know when I can go riding again! :-( I'm not injured or anything, just don't have a boat for the time being!
Old     (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       07-16-2009, 5:13 PM Reply   
Super basice trick... Just like someone said... It's all in the handle pass. I never really crashed hard learning them. I don't do anything crazy on my approach. Just make sure to get a good solid pop. Once I know I got it good, then you can pull the handle into your hip and turn your head. You can also do them right off the wake, but you'll take harder falls this way. I've forced a few by tugging on the way up the wake. It works, but it's not as clean. Ideally I like to go big TS indy grab and turn BS180 on the way down.
Old     (wakeviolater)      Join Date: Sep 2004       07-17-2009, 10:10 AM Reply   
"Ideally I like to go big TS indy grab and turn BS180 on the way down."

me too! but I have only gotten it a few times. TS bS is hard to grab before the handle pass, and get the handle...i've had more success with grabing after, but i like to look of grabbing indy before.
Old     (andy_nintzel)      Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Minnesnowda       07-17-2009, 10:25 AM Reply   
Recently I figured out how to land TS BS 180 Blind or wrapped. It tricky, but man does it look sick to blast a GIANT Tail Poke then turn blind off the Toeside.

Its not as hard as it looks, its all handle control and body position. Although I did take some day ending slams trying to really blast them.
Old     (guido)      Join Date: Jul 2002       07-17-2009, 10:35 AM Reply   
Hmm. I've landed them blind, but haven't ridden any away yet. I could see that looking sick. Maybe I'll try a few tonight. That's definitely a good way to take some slams, though.
Old     (andy_nintzel)      Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Minnesnowda       07-17-2009, 10:53 AM Reply   
Evan, Its Crazy cause I thought the first time I did it, I would not rotate around far enough, but that was no problem. The Slam was a toe edge hook, just brutal. Careful with the weird pull it gives you on the handle behind your back, it wants to pull you forward and twist your hips, a perfect equation to hook your toes. FEELS SO SICK THO! you can almost see the expressions on peoples faces in the boat like, WTF just happend how did he land like that. It really helped me to land a few HS FS 3 Wrapped to get the ejection feeling down.

(Message edited by andy nintzel on July 17, 2009)
Old     (andy_nintzel)      Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Minnesnowda       07-17-2009, 6:57 PM Reply   
Check out the Slingshot team vid here, at the 35 Seconds mark there is a GREAT TS 360 you can see the Arms out Position and the Pull on the way up the wake.
Old     (blabel)      Join Date: Jul 2001       07-17-2009, 10:02 PM Reply   
Dude, who is that? That is some of the best riding I've ever seen.
Old     (nelsonwakeboarding)      Join Date: Mar 2008       07-18-2009, 10:41 AM Reply   
Actually, CIE J-Rod, that tip came from Mrs. Nelson. :-)
Old     (brhanley)      Join Date: Jun 2001       07-18-2009, 10:59 AM Reply   
jeff mckee, i believe. he's been throwing down like that for years...super stylie, like collin wright on steroids...seems to be getting even better.
Old     (blabel)      Join Date: Jul 2001       07-18-2009, 10:06 PM Reply   
That would make sense. I've always liked the way him and his brother ride.
Old     (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       07-20-2009, 7:43 AM Reply   
Andy - That camera angle does help. The one thing I noticed he does it give it a pretty hard edge early and then flatten out before the wake. I was trying to drift edge mine so it was hard for me to generate enough speed to go w2w cleanly and still keep the line tension low.

Update on my attempts:
I have some video that I will try to post up in the next few days so you guys can see what I was doing wrong. It is definitely an awkward position to get into for me. I was really trying to get my upper body leaning away from the boat so as not to be pulled out the front after the pass, but I had a hard time doing that without pitching over too much. I definitely see now the importance of the nose high position off the wake. When I did stay nose high though my body position seemed to be too vertical and I was nose diving them. I was riding a little bit slower with a shorter rope which was giving me a bit more confidence.

In watching the video, I wasn't as knee bent on my edge as I thought. Maybe that would help. I think for me it mostly comes down to body position. I have a very hard time with getting my body into the right place on backside spinning. It's the same case for me HS. For the life of me, I can't keep for getting pulled over backwards on my HS BS 1's.

So I'll let you guys see the video and go from there. It was fun to give these a try and hopefully next time my attempts will be a bit better.

Old     (andy_nintzel)      Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Minnesnowda       07-20-2009, 8:14 AM Reply   
Just reading what you are saying I have a feeling your dropping a shoulder either in the air or on the approach. But post the video I would love to help you out.

Funny that you talk about drifting into the wake vs. raging in at the wake. I was riding yesterday and my buddy who I was with kept saying, "80% it looks like you dont even cut at the wake toeside, but you blast off of it, what the hell." My respons was that I dont have to cut hard, I ride a 90 foot rope, at 27.5mph on the O'brien Decade. That board is so fast I can stand tall and focus all my attention on body position and handle placement, not on generating speed on almost everything except for if I take some thing HUGE like a Batwing way into the flats.
Fast forward to my buddies set, he is just charging in on his toes at the wake. After about 10 good solide slams from him I decide that I was going to toss him out to 90 feet and speed up the boat, next thing you know he is able to back off his toe edge and spin a FS 5 on first try (after ten slams on it) because his focus changed from generating speed to body position. It changes everything. Just a thougt-
Old     (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       07-20-2009, 8:37 AM Reply   
I agree on the TS stuff. That was my intention with shortening the rope. I thought I could focus on my body position and not worry about the edge much, but I was still needing to get on edge more than I was. That's why I think the harder edge early to get up some speed and then flattening out might be a good way to go.

Anyway, this trick does seem like it would be fun but I'm not even close right now.
Old     (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       07-20-2009, 8:44 AM Reply   
Jarret, we need to ride together this year. We will go out and have a TS 1 session. I have been working on my switch TS lately. How is your Shudo list coming?
Old     (andy_nintzel)      Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Minnesnowda       07-20-2009, 8:45 AM Reply   
W/o watching it I can bet your closer than you think. Its a Mind game this one. Really easy to over think, "Stand tall, bend my knees, stick my butt out, are my arms out far enough, should I pull the handle now, should I turn my head. Just a huge mind funk.
Old     (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       07-20-2009, 9:16 AM Reply   
You got it Andy. I would think about sucking up my knees (which I think I don't do well and hurts my backside spinning) and sticking my butt out and keeping my arms out...and then I would get pitched way over the nose. The next time I would think about keeping the nose high, but I would get my butt out so I would get pulled over backwards. There is a lot to think about until it becomes more natural for me.

Gene - My Shudo sucks. I've at least gotten my "Can Do's" on video but the TS BS 1 is the only thing I've even tried that was on my "Wants" or "Used To" list. I should really try to get something easier on my list first since I don't get to ride much. I haven't even tried my two "Used To's" which are the tantrum and TS R2R. I need to try those and then try a couple of new ones that should be that hard...the TS 5 (since I have a consistent 3) and the frontroll (since my crow is pretty dialed now). How about you?
Old     (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       07-20-2009, 10:04 AM Reply   
I have not had but a few decent sets with flat water and feeling good to try new things but I did nail a switch TS 3 on my 2nd attempt and have it pretty solid now. (still struggle with the actual consistent switch TS pop)

I am riding scared because my leg (due to my ACL repair) is litterally still half the size of the the other leg. :-(

My used to's include a tantrum also. We should definately get out and push each other a little.

Next on my list is switch crow and TS backroll (one of the only base inverts I have tried a few times, but not landed.
Old     (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       07-20-2009, 10:28 AM Reply   
Sweet. I "might" be going to WBC Lavon on Thursday if you want to come out. It sucks because you'll have great intentions for your next set, and then the water sucks when you get out there and it is hard to work on new things.

I need to get out there and not jack around with doing anything other than the stuff I still need to get on film. I'll maybe get another one or two sets in before the end of the month.


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