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Old    Brian Deegan (irishrider92)      Join Date: Jun 2009       07-02-2009, 6:15 AM Reply   
I've heard a couple people talking about using this after wakeboarding sets. My brother was in Canada last year and he said they all use it there and I went for a set yesterday and in the clubhouse the driver had a tub of it. Was just wondering about any noticeable benefits?
Old    AMO (amo)      Join Date: Jan 2009       07-02-2009, 6:35 AM Reply   
Helps rebuild muscle after a workout, if you have the essential amino acids in the drink to facilitate assimilation into the muscles. There is a possiblity that it will help with the soreness come the next day. But everyone is different.
Old    michaelspsp (michaelspsp)      Join Date: Sep 2007       07-02-2009, 7:27 AM Reply   
cant hurt
should help
Old    Luker (xbones)      Join Date: Mar 2007       07-02-2009, 7:43 AM Reply   
helps you yack after a nice set A protein shake is the absolute last thing in the world I would want after a shred sesh. Cold Water/Beer/RedBull for me.
Old    Nick Yochman (lakemiltonwake08)      Join Date: Oct 2008       07-02-2009, 7:54 AM Reply   
If you're not a professional wakeboarder and riding a significant amount every day, I don't see a benefit in it. I don't think that pro's drink it anyways. I could be wrong though, Gotta build up those wakeboard muscles for the beach.
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       07-02-2009, 8:09 AM Reply   
There's no reason to drink protein after a wakeboarding set, unless you feel like your daily diet lacks a protein balance. If anything it could weight you down and dehydrate you.

In general protein supplements are over used, even in the gym scene. The best thing you can do is eat well balanced meals.
Old    Mike K (mike2001)      Join Date: Feb 2008       07-02-2009, 8:20 AM Reply   
Unnecessary for wakeboarding
Old    gangstar (joe_crawley)      Join Date: Jan 2007       07-02-2009, 8:47 AM Reply   
wouldn't help at all after wakeboarding unless you were lifting at the same time. However it will certainly help you after lifting
Old    CIREboardshorts.com (nuckledragger)      Join Date: Jun 2004       07-02-2009, 10:08 AM Reply   
Don't find yourself locked in a small crowded room after drinking those things for a while. You could clear the room in a matter of seconds.
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       07-02-2009, 10:11 AM Reply   
That's your digestive system saying WTF are you feeding me this garbage!
Old    Nick Yochman (lakemiltonwake08)      Join Date: Oct 2008       07-02-2009, 11:04 AM Reply   
Or an undigested overload of eggs and milk rotting inside your bowel system.
Old    michaelspsp (michaelspsp)      Join Date: Sep 2007       07-02-2009, 12:19 PM Reply   
ok, i am 50 years old and a strength coach. ive worked with a 1st round draft pick to the ny yankess (eric duncan) to 6 out 7 football players from don bosco getting Div 1 scholarships (same year). Ive worked w MLB, NFL, NHL pro athletes. ive studied w the best sports docs in the world. it cant hurt might help. i know some guys who are sore after wakeboarding. it will help them. period. if you dont get sore, dont bother. BTW little secret here, caffeine, alcohol, and sugar weaken tendons... and only use whey protein that does not have carbs added to it. the carbs will make you blow a hole in your boardshorts.... i use an unflavored/no sweetener whey protein
Old    thebiggmann            07-02-2009, 12:30 PM Reply   
If you're looking to reduce soreness youcould maybe try glutamine. I take that when I lift and I find hat it helps with he soreness.
Old    Rich (digg311)      Join Date: Sep 2007       07-02-2009, 12:31 PM Reply   
Basically protein servings above 40g usually end up in gas because the human body has trouble digesting that much protein.

The undigested protein is unable to pass through the lining of the small intestine and all the bacteria (good and bad) have a feast on those amino acids... which is why farts are composed mostly of nitrogen.
Old    AMO (amo)      Join Date: Jan 2009       07-02-2009, 12:43 PM Reply   
Michael you couldn't be more right about caffeine, alcohol, and sugar. All you fellas out there who get injured riding, cut that crap out of your diet, train your body to take a beating and you won't get injured as much or maybe at all. Glutes and hammies, glutes and hammies.....ALL DAY LONG!
Old    Mike K (mike2001)      Join Date: Feb 2008       07-02-2009, 1:03 PM Reply   
"protein servings above 40g usually end up in gas because the human body has trouble digesting that much protein"

If that is true, good to know. Nothing like paying to give myself gas.
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       07-02-2009, 1:06 PM Reply   
also, if you don't over train, you won't be sore!

I started drinking protein shakes 13-14 years ago when I was doing the body building-like routines. Now it's pretty rare. Hard on the digestive system, and it never once helped me with soreness! Did it contribute to my muscle mass? Maybe, maybe not. I've done it with and without supplements. There's no substitute for training smart and eating good. Eat balanced meals with protein and you won't need that stuff.
Old    shooter_08            07-02-2009, 1:58 PM Reply   
Iím not as educated on this as some who have replied, but if you are training (wakeboarding more than three times a week) give it a try. They say there is a one hour window to supply your body for growth after a workout (I would consider a good session as a workout). Many people take protein supplements because most people eat poor diets with too many carbs and donít get what they need in quality protein. I guess it depends on what your regular diet looks like.
Old    michaelspsp (michaelspsp)      Join Date: Sep 2007       07-02-2009, 6:33 PM Reply   
basically protein servings above 40g usually end up in gas because the human body has trouble digesting that much protein.


i forgot to mention i am friends with and have employed top bodybuilders. look up milos sarcev. he was the most photographed bodybuilders in the 90s. he still consults. he recommends. as does dr serrano (my nutrition mentor) up to 2 grams of protein per pound of weight. so a 200 pound guy should be eating 400 grams of protein. Ok, bodybuilder NOT wakeboarder. point is that 40 grams a serving is total BS. i take in at least 60 grams at least 2x a day and have no gas. why? no carbs with my whey. and i use a top shelf whey protein. and Shooter is right about quality protein. and whey has glutamine plus BCAAs in it.
Old    Lance Saville (lancesaville)      Join Date: May 2009       07-02-2009, 7:15 PM Reply   
I've taken clean whey protein shakes with a teaspoon of creatine in the past after stressing muscles. It's supposed to do a lot of good after a workout, as far as helping the muscles heal.
Old    gangstar (joe_crawley)      Join Date: Jan 2007       07-02-2009, 7:43 PM Reply   
a teaspoon of creatine? creatine is very helpful if you cycle it right, but I don't think a teaspoon of any type of creatine would do you much good outside of a extended duration cycle. It'd be like eating a hamburger (red meat is the natural source of creatine)
Old    Lance Saville (lancesaville)      Join Date: May 2009       07-02-2009, 8:35 PM Reply   
It was micronized creatine, 5g per teaspoon. A 2.2 lb porterhouse steak has around 2.5g. It's a lot better than eating a burger because there is no fat. And you can take several tsp's a day whereas you def don't want to eat like 6 porterhouses a day. unless it's the 4th of july and you have lots of A-1 and amberbock.
Old    Jeremy Byrom (wakerider111)      Join Date: Jul 2006       07-02-2009, 8:44 PM Reply   
just drink some chocolate milk. its got the whey and a bit extra calories. cheapest simplest stuff and already mixed
Old    Caleb Blauwet (cb23)      Join Date: Jan 2009       07-02-2009, 9:41 PM Reply   
alot of creatine on a daily basis isnt really that good for from my experiences people who use creatine heavily end up injured and i agred with jeremy, from stuff ive found chocolate milk is probably the best recovery drink for the cost by a long shot
Old    kal schultz (kal_dude)      Join Date: Apr 2006       07-02-2009, 10:26 PM Reply   
www.torchsports.com i use all 3 products!


kal
www.marketamerica.com/kaldude
Old    michaelspsp (michaelspsp)      Join Date: Sep 2007       07-03-2009, 3:25 AM Reply   
milk? worse thing for you. unless its raw. i dont even let my daughter drink it
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       07-03-2009, 6:47 AM Reply   
How are carbs in protein going to cause someone to produce gas?
Old    michaelspsp (michaelspsp)      Join Date: Sep 2007       07-03-2009, 8:32 AM Reply   
? sugars cause gas. not protein. there should be no carbs in protein. ie. filet mignon has no carbs. many protein powders have added carbs (its cheaper than protein) that causes GAS. that is why i use a very good whey protein, no added maltodextrin (most common added sugar)or any other type of sugars. everyone, male or female, wakeboarder or not should get at least 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight in their diet. for most busy people on the run, this is hard to do. Protein repairs damaged tissue, helps keep bodyfat down, makes hair and skin healthier, and so on... HINT, if your protein powder does not dissolve somewhat easily in water, it probably has carbs in it.
Old    michaelspsp (michaelspsp)      Join Date: Sep 2007       07-03-2009, 8:40 AM Reply   
and if your question is why do carbs cause gas, our bodies werent designed to eat as much sugar as we do now...One hundred years ago the average individual intake of simple sugar was less than 10 lbs. per year. Todayís estimates suggest the average person in the United States consumes over 100 lbs annually. So much sugar is consumed by the average American that many diets now
have sugar intakes representing 50% of their carbohydrate intake for the day. The simple sugars come from two primary sources; sucrose generally represents 25% of the diet and high
fructose corn syrup contributes about 19% of calories. These numbers dramatically exceed health recommendations. and ive heard 200 years ago the intake for sugar was 5 lbs.......
Old    Jon0 (mro)      Join Date: Jun 2008       07-03-2009, 9:28 AM Reply   
Theres a book out there called 'optimum muscle recovery'. If you want to separate opinion from fact you may try to look for it. When I was riding motocross 5 times a week I found it necessary to have every edge there was in the recovery department. Its been a long time since I've read it, and I'm nowhere near the athlete I used to be, but theres some key points I still stick with. The techniques are geared more towards the structured work out in the gym where you're done in 1.5 hours, but you do the best you can when your activity falls outside that realm. After an intense work out you have an insulin spike for 2 hours. This is the window where your body works extra hard to repair damaged tissue with fuel thats more readily assimilated than the cheeseburger. This fuel is fast absorbing whey protein and high glycemic carbs specifiacally in the ratio of 4:1. fruit and or malodextrin work best, or mix your shake with juice. Because whey is so quickly absorbed, and sometimes even 'pre-digested', you can get away with eating more that the standard 30 gram serving. Obviously if you're your pants, monitor your dose more close. After your 2 hour window have your regular meal for the slow release. throw glutamine in there cause your body can't manufacture it - it has to be supplemented. If you go hard at anything its almost a guarantee you're deficient in glutamine. if you're really an animal give HGH a try.
Old    Hate N Pain (hatepain)      Join Date: Aug 2006       07-03-2009, 10:13 AM Reply   
^^^Well said, There exisits in this thread a lot more opinion not based in fact then actual facts. Whey protein is a natural food source put into a powder form obviously there are changes made to it to aid assimilation and flavor .i.e the makers might ad digestive enzyme such as aminopro. Whey is by far the most effecient and effective source of protein we can use for a couple reasons. 1.) It's bioavailability rating is very high. Meaning our bodys absorb and utilize Whey very well 2.) It's amino acid profile is the best to speed recovery and facilitate new muscle growth. If you have a hard time digesting Whey it's because your body is not currently set up to digest larger sums of protein. You see our bodies produce enzymes specific to the foods we eat. There are different enzymes for sugars, fibers, complex carbs, protein etc, etc.

http://www.wheyoflife.org/benefits.cfm
http://www.theproteinpeople.com/faq/default.aspx Here you can see the BV rating of whey versus other proteins.

Does it help with Wakeboarding? No. Is it going to speed your recovery from wakeboarding? Yes, where your muscles are concerned.
Old    michaelspsp (michaelspsp)      Join Date: Sep 2007       07-03-2009, 10:25 AM Reply   
I agree w the 2 hour window. something my mentor Charles Poliquin started in the 1980s. he is a canadian strength coach but worked for prince albert of monaco when they came in 3rd in Olympic bobsled, well he worked for any country that would pay him including korea. he started his nutrition research after ben johnson was disqualified in the 100m for a positive test for steroids. after that canada said any strength coach working with steroids or athletes on steroids would never coach again. i have a more specific formula for whey to maltodextrin for my kid athletes who needed to GAIN weight. but if they needed to LOSE weight, no maltodextrin but added glutamine . btw poliquin coached over 70 NHL players to nfl Thomas Jones. AND testosterone levels fall off after 1 hour to 1.5 hours of working out for most males. thats the reason for the time frame.
Old    michaelspsp (michaelspsp)      Join Date: Sep 2007       07-03-2009, 10:30 AM Reply   
well put Hate
also check out nutrition myths that wont die
by will brink

http://www.brinkzone.com/articledetails.php?acatid=3&aid=113
Old    Derik Heikoop (wakecourage)      Join Date: Aug 2008       07-03-2009, 10:46 AM Reply   
If you have a good diet no need for protien after wakeboarding! Iam a bit of a fitness jumky. Actually spend more time in the gym then on the water sadly (6 times a week). Its really important to have protien right after a work out. When bodybuilding you have ripped up alot of muscle and your body starts to repair its self right away (20-30 min window). If you don't consume protien your body will break down other muscle for a protien source to repair the muscle you ripped. Wakeboarding is in know way as stressfull on your muscles as bodybuilding is. If anything good complex carbs are more important after wakeboarding to get the energy levels up for your second run! So if wakeboarders up here in Canada are drinking protien after a wakeboard run its more of a fad!
Old    michaelspsp (michaelspsp)      Join Date: Sep 2007       07-03-2009, 7:32 PM Reply   
Derik, did you read my 1st post? Im 50 years old, i have been in gyms for 35 years. i do this for a living. no one needs carbs, thats not saying you shouldnt have them. wakeboarding is exercising, using muscles, predominately legs. i have friends that board with me and are sore for days. they need protein period. protein repairs muscle damage, even when you stretch, you are tearing muscle fibers, you need protein. period. of course dont listen to me, lets see where you guys are when you are 50....and protein is used 24/7 not a 20 minute window. that would be for carbs after a workout if needed. (and this is 1 minute to 2 hrs post workout depending who you talk to). there is no protein storage which is why you need it numerous times a day. i know bodybuilders who wake themselves up in the middle of the night to drink a shake (overkill).
Old    shooter_08            07-04-2009, 8:47 AM Reply   
I think this has turned in to a weight training discussion, but +1 for Will Brinks...He has a few excellent online books. One book talks only about every supplement available. Basically he said all of them are BS except quality protein and Creatine. Information like that is hard to find because most "experts" are being paid by the same companies that make this useless crap. I can email you a copy if you want.
Old    dperizzolo            07-04-2009, 9:02 AM Reply   
If you eat a balanced and healthy diet you shouldn't need supplementation.

(Message edited by dperizzolo on July 04, 2009)
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       07-04-2009, 9:28 AM Reply   
I simply don't believe that our bodies were intended to be supplemented with all this protein. I think that your point of view is coming from your experience with body building and working with professional athletes, or whatever. That doesn't mean that it's good for the average weekend athlete. No offense, but it sounds like the old-school / body building mentality.

Carbs are the prefered source of energy by the body, and the best way to replunish energy after an intense workout. Protein will not fuel a workout like carbs. It's for tissue repair. I tried relying on protein for pre/post workout nutrients. I felt flat, out of energy, soft muscles, terrible. My personal performance is much much better on carbs, or a balanced meal of mixed nutrient types. I'm in better shape now that I was 12 years ago when I was walking around with protein shakes and a tube of creatine.

Do you believe there are different metabolic types?

I would disagree btw that wakeboarding is mosty legs also. Maybe on the hard landings, but it's all core and back at the end of the day. It's more or less a standing row....all day long.
Old    Josh (romes)      Join Date: Sep 2006       07-04-2009, 10:24 AM Reply   
UHHH....legs are the foundation for any sport. does not matter what the sport is.

you're arms shoulders and back get sore because they are used less frequently for rigorous activity. thats why after a month of riding you no longer get sore...unless you're takin bangers..
Old    AMO (amo)      Join Date: Jan 2009       07-04-2009, 3:47 PM Reply   
No offense J-rod, but you couldn't be more wrong. Carbs are simply for supplementation. I work out and train with the best in the business, nothing but protein will do the job.

As far as what kind protein. Nothing is as good as meat. The more rare the better. If you have to have a shake, use an isolate not a concentrate. That will help cut down on gas in your system.

J-rod, to your point, I will give you that we all have different bio-chemistries and how we process this protein can be different to an extent, but protein is a fundamental we all need on a daily basis in decent amounts, especially when we workout.
Old    proho (proho)      Join Date: Aug 2005       07-05-2009, 8:11 AM Reply   
everyone in this thread is so full of ****. Unless you have before and after pictures of people you trained you have no business throwing out some of these blanket statements.

I'd throw out some of my thoughts and experiences on the subject but I think I'd only further muddy the waters.

(Message edited by proho on July 05, 2009)
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       07-05-2009, 8:17 AM Reply   
So you're saying I should be able to eat meat, drink protein shakes, nothing else, and with this I'll be able to perform at my best, no matter what I'm doing, whether it's lifting weights or running marathons? No carbs?

"you're arms shoulders and back get sore because they are used...."

....all day for wakeboarding! I didn't say legs aren't used at all. But when was the last time you got back in the boat and said, "man I had to stop because my legs are tired?"
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       07-05-2009, 8:25 AM Reply   
Just to be clear...

I'm a trainer and entered the field only a year ago. This is why I'm asking the questions. Your statements contradict what I was taught, what most fitness org teach, and even my personal experience. I feel like hell with no carbs.

I work at a large health club, but most of my valuable experience comes from a small private studio where I work with very well educated and experienced trainers and nutritionists. They would never suggest protein supps, and laugh at people who do. They have somewhat of a scienctific approach to prescribing diets which includes metabolic typing.

I'm not claiming to be any kind of expert, just questioning your methods! :-)
Old    AMO (amo)      Join Date: Jan 2009       07-05-2009, 1:16 PM Reply   
Proho, unless you too are a professional athlete at the top of your profession or a trainer who trains top level professional athletes you should seek life elsewhere. Or, pony up the info from your VAST experience. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.

J-rod, I'm sure your info is good, and is right. But, for certain athletic endeavors at the highest levels of training you need more of everything. That is the knowledge I have gained from my trainers and nutritionists. For the average Joe, you are correct, a balanced diet is all you need. As you may know, it also depends on what you are trying to accomplish as an athlete.

To answer the poor dudes question from the start, it depends on what you're trying to accomplish. I definitely wouldn't pound a protein shake immediately after a session. Water, lean meats and fresh vegetables will take you further than shakes, and your body can digest real food easier.
Old    proho (proho)      Join Date: Aug 2005       07-05-2009, 8:28 PM Reply   
AMO, I didn't really make it clear in my post but I don't really feel qualified to offer advice. Since you asked I can share my opinions gathered from experience and research(which mostly applies to strength training). I get a little heated when people offer fitness advice that is blatantly wrong. I skimmed over the second half of the thread. I stopped reading after I read about how the body can't digest more than 40g of protein and that you're supposed to cycle creatine.

Since the thread started out about whey and protein supplement I can start there.
Reasoning for protein supplementation: Strenuous workouts leave your body severely depleted and it is important to give your body some form of energy to switch it from breaking down tissue to building tissue. Whey is rapidly digested and absorbed by the body (also fat free). This makes it "better" immediately post-workout than steak or chicken as it allows the switch to happen sooner. Also people with really fast metabolisms who are trying to gain weight may find protein shakes useful as you can easily increase your calories without the feeling as full as you would from a solid meal. (when you're already eating 5000-6000 calories from healthy solid foods it can be tough to fit more food in your stomach).
Protein supplementation for wakeboarding: I personally wouldn't do it. It may be a convenient, healthy meal while out on the boat for a couple of hours when paired with some fruits or nuts or something but I don't think it's necessary at all.

my problems with the thread:
The body cannot digest more than 40g of protein.
bull****. Who set this limit? you're saying a 300 pound pro bodybuilder who eats up to 600 grams of protein would require 15 seperate meals to do so? Everyone's digestive system is different. If you are having problems with gas you may want to look into HCL, probiotics, or yogurts with live cultures to aid in digestion. Poliquin Jr.(michaelspsp) may be able to give more information on this topic.

Creatine needs to be cycled and causes injuries.
No. You're wrong. Sorry to not give any references to back this up, but that's jsut the way it is.

J-rod, be careful with relying on only your gym buddies for your information and especially be careful getting information from a wakeboard forum. I've had people with all sorts of certifications trying to tell me things that were blatantly wrong. The most important thing I've learned is that everyone's different. My roommate is a triathlete while I lift weights. He eats a ridiculous amount of pasta and drinks sugary recovery drinks at odd times and is leaner than I am. I would balloon up if I ate like that. I think you were hinting this when you brought up that there were different metabolic types. Somatotypes?
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       07-05-2009, 8:37 PM Reply   
I'm aware of that danger. Thanks Proho.
Old    Dave Penner (lildave)      Join Date: Aug 2006       07-06-2009, 9:25 AM Reply   
I wouldnt take it for repairing muscle but it cant hurt as an easy way to get nutrition if you are out on the water all day.
Old    trevor_kershaw            07-06-2009, 9:33 AM Reply   
that is one of the main functions of protein is muscle repair lol
Old    Dave Penner (lildave)      Join Date: Aug 2006       07-06-2009, 9:38 AM Reply   
Also for the most part when you get gas from protein powder that means your body doesnt like that one. A high quality protein wont give you gas unless you use extreme amounts. Even then it shouldnt give you gas.. just the lol
Old    trevor_kershaw            07-06-2009, 9:54 AM Reply   
actualy the body absorbs protien and converts it to enery after it burns the Carbohydrates (carbs burn faster) and the amino acids are what repairs muscle tissue so yes protien actualy does give you "gas" it doestn matter how much you take as long as your body is absorbing its right amount for males about 35 to 40 grams for an average size.
not intending this to be rude just stayting facts
Old    Dave Penner (lildave)      Join Date: Aug 2006       07-06-2009, 2:56 PM Reply   
I worded things wrong.. when I said that I wouldnt take it for repairing muscle I meant that you arent doing enough damage to need to worry about that. Lets say you did nothing but lie in bed all day. Obviously you arent needing to repair your muscles since you arent doing anything. Does that mean you dont need any protein though? On the boat it is just convenient to have a way to get in some calories and fill you up.

and as far as your second post goes..

what you said makes no sense...
you are pretty much saying that because your body uses something as energy it will give you gas?
I bet anyone that has supplemented with protein enough knows exactly what I'm talking about. I can take certain proteins all day long and I dont get any gas. I use a different brand even and I get gas. Not all proteins are processed the same. Especially someone with milk alergies has to be careful in what kind of protein they buy.
Old    Gene Williams (gene3x)      Join Date: Apr 2005       07-06-2009, 5:31 PM Reply   
As in every discussion it cracks me up how committed everyone is to the things they have read or were taught about protein and supplementation. I have been reading things for years and the methods and information on this subject are constantly changing.

very entertaining.
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       07-06-2009, 6:45 PM Reply   
Changing, yes, but also there is conflicting information presented to me as I work in this field every day it seems. You can take 5 different trainers, nutritionist, etc, with training/education from 5 different institutions, and they will disagree on many subjects. Personally I'm more drawn to the 'All Natural" methods, currently!

For example, Trevor pretty much backed me up on the "carbs for energy" thing. This is what many of the fitness training institutions teach, and, this is what works for me.
Old    Ned (mayor_h)      Join Date: Sep 2006       07-07-2009, 4:21 AM Reply   
Well said Gene.
Old    michaelspsp (michaelspsp)      Join Date: Sep 2007       07-07-2009, 5:33 AM Reply   
CIEj-rod, i have been studying nutrition for 35 years (including in college). i spent countless hours at seminars with the doctors who work with the best athletes in the world. not to mention thousands and thousands of dollars. I am friends and train pro athletes. my friends work w the best athletes in the world. if you go to will brinks link above, there is section about protein intake researched by Dr Lemon. protein research is all this guy does for a living. he states all athletes need more protein. the doctors i study under are 8 to 10 years ahead of the general public. i was using both creatine and whey 8 to 10 years before it hit mainstream. the latest research (fyi at least 5 years old) states endurance athletes need more protein than bodybuilders , I have only been saying that for about 20 years... the body stores enough carbs to run 20 miles without supplementation . and gene, thats why i dont get my info from magazines, only doctors in the field (not doctors who do not work w athletes), good research and empirical evidence. most trainers in gyms, and i am building a 20,000 sq ft gym right now and have been in the business for a long time, dont know squat. the other thing you ALL must consider is we are different. I cant handle carbs, makes me fat, tired and gassy. my ex-wife could eat carbs all day long and was skinny and never tired. the fact is 75% of the population does not do well on carbs. I have helped bodybuilders win contests. some could handle a lot of carbs others not so. same w pro athletes. and i agree with AMO its best to get protein from real food but its just not practical. if you look a dr lemons research , it states we need almost 1 gram of protein to pound of bodyweight. im 210 lbs, i dont have time to eat that much real protein, thats why i supplement.

--
Michael Padula CSCS, ART Biomechanics, FSM
Old    michaelspsp (michaelspsp)      Join Date: Sep 2007       07-07-2009, 5:59 AM Reply   
Slow Burn. btw that is a book by stu mittleman who ran 1000 miles in 11 days and 20 hours. i believe he was 40 years old, or around there at the time. he won the race and beat out guys most of whom where half his age . he states the reason for his success is a high PROTEIN diet. he said all the runners eating carbs are missing the boat..... he states using a high protein diet forces the body to burn fat for energy vs carbs and we have an endless supply of fat energy stored in the body (vs carbs)...
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       07-07-2009, 6:36 AM Reply   
Very true Gene, one study comes to a different conclusion than another. In the end I don't think we really have a good solid scientific grasp on the the truth of these matters. Those who make a living in this field should also see this very clearly.

In the end though I don't think protien intake is really going to be all that helpful for wakeboarding. I've been a gym rat all my life, spent 5 years as a NASM CPT personal trainer for both the avg person and athletes, and do subscribe to the use of protein supplementation after intense anaerobic exercise, which I wouldn't classify wakeboarding as.

(Message edited by cjh1669 on July 07, 2009)
Old    Dave Penner (lildave)      Join Date: Aug 2006       07-07-2009, 7:38 AM Reply   
I'm glad you brought up the whole point of carb tolerance michaelspsp..
I like you bloat up when I take in high amount of carbs.
A couple points for the whole low carb thing.
If you are gonna do it you gotta stick to it. The first week or two will be hell. You will feel drained since most peoples bodies are so used to having carbs for energy that it just loses its efficiency of using fat for energy.
You also should sorta "replace" fat with carbs. I'm not saying to start eating a ton of bacon. Fish is good. Grass fed beef is good. Free range eggs are good. Olive oil and coconut milk are good. In fact a little higher fat intake is a good thing for a male since fat and hormone production are closely related. The whole fat is bad thing is bs. Eating fat along with carbs is the issue. The last thing is get a fiber supplement. It will keep you regular. Almonds are also a good snack for that reason.


The one supplement that I would say can benefit wakeboarders is fish oil. Other then it being good for your general health it also works at keeping your joints healthy and cutting down on inflammation.
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       07-07-2009, 7:50 AM Reply   
Hey Michael, You've stated your experience with nearly every post. I hear ya. I'm not doubting what you say. But, this doesn't change the fact that there is still conflicting information coming from people that also have decades of experience.

"the other thing you ALL must consider is we are different." There it is! I've poked at this idea a few times now.

"In the end I don't think we really have a good solid scientific grasp on the the truth of these matters. Those who make a living in this field should also see this very clearly." Absolutely.
Old    michaelspsp (michaelspsp)      Join Date: Sep 2007       07-07-2009, 8:03 AM Reply   
the point is the guys at the top of the field, the ones who work with the winning athletes Pro and Olympic and even the healthiest non athletes are pretty much on the same page. i have a doctor friend who does not work w athletes, he is more of a healer. he has told me anything that ends in "itis" such a tendonitis or bursitis is caused by carbs. he then showed me the research. which brings up another point. paul check stated there are about 1200 research doctors in this country, 1150 are on someones payroll. so there are about 50 whose paycheck is not influenced what they say.
Old    wake_addict (radikal)      Join Date: Feb 2004       07-07-2009, 8:28 AM Reply   
+1 for the well balanced food, but protein shake in WATER cant be bad, but if you want your muscles to recover better without any gain in mass, take isolate protein, and anyway whatever your body dont need youll flush it a little later.
Old    thebiggmann            07-07-2009, 9:00 AM Reply   
Michael, you said something about added glutamine to help lose weight? Does that aid in weight loss?
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       07-07-2009, 9:24 AM Reply   
Cool..Paul Chek! I'm glad you brought him up. He trained the guys I work with. Paul Chek preaches high protein, but also, all natural food diets! (from what I have seen anyway) I'm headed for his HLC-Level 1 cert. He believes in balanced diets which include carbs IF your metabolic type calls for it. But, I believe most of his material is geared towards the average non-athlete focusing on weight loss.

I've listened to his speeches about the doctors, and our messed up food processing and agricultural systems. Listening to him makes me question much of what I learned from NASM.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       07-07-2009, 9:35 AM Reply   
Really the key to all this is to study the information and come to your own conclusions through education and experience.

This has gotten way off topic though. Int he end the use of protein supplementation would more than likely be a waste is only used for post wakeboarding.

(Message edited by cjh1669 on July 07, 2009)
Old    michaelspsp (michaelspsp)      Join Date: Sep 2007       07-07-2009, 9:41 AM Reply   
I had NASM cert. no comment. CIE J Rod, and AMO are you following this (ill send a PM to make sure you get this) ? actually to all, here is a present...
please go to

http://www.jelenafit.net/

make sure you check out all her pics
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       07-07-2009, 10:05 AM Reply   
I personally thought the NASM bio-mechanics was well put together. I've been out of the industry almost 5 years now. The NASM certs didn't include much if any nutritional info when went through them both. I know they've changed quite a bit, because I've looked at getting back in for fun.
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       07-07-2009, 10:30 AM Reply   
I agree the bio mechanics content is good. IMO, that's the clear cut easy stuff.

Nutrition I'm learning is way more complicated.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       07-07-2009, 10:40 AM Reply   
Nutrition is insanely complicated, and largely subjective. There are no clear cut answers, and there are far too many people making way too much money selling what they consider "truth". Back in the day the nutritional part of NASM was taught through their APEX cert. I agreed with some of it, and some I didn't. Neal Spruce is a smart guy and a good sales men.

Funny thing is that if you go to most gyms you find out that the clear cut easy stuff is largely ignored by the Vast majority of the people training
Old    michaelspsp (michaelspsp)      Join Date: Sep 2007       07-07-2009, 2:42 PM Reply   
i ran the APEX program while i was GM of a v large gym 12 years ago. it was supposed to be customized but 95% of the people came up needing the same diet. high carb. i never used what they recommended. i always got better results than the 3 people who worked under me who followed the program.
ok, did you see Jelenas' photos? 2 protein shakes a day and 3 meals- low carb. besides being IFBB Pro, she is a model on call 24/7. carbs make her abs disappear and she feels like crap when she eats them. which is unusual, females as a whole do better than males on carbs. but she is serbian, and their diets are high in protein for a very very long time....oh ,and she comes to me for Active Release, Microcurrent and a few other tricks i have up my sleeve.
Old    Chris (cjh1669)      Join Date: Apr 2005       07-07-2009, 2:53 PM Reply   
Never was a big fan of their system either. You are right that most people ended up being the same. Did like their supplements, except some of the pill sizes.
I don't think you can show someones body and say "see this shows I'm correct". Too many factors are involved. I have a friend who eats terrible and is so cut that people think he's a pro body builder.



(Message edited by cjh1669 on July 07, 2009)
Old    AMO (amo)      Join Date: Jan 2009       07-07-2009, 4:51 PM Reply   
Wow Michael, she must work out!
Old    thebiggmann            07-07-2009, 7:57 PM Reply   
This look photoshopped to anyone else?

http://www.jelenafit.net/pages/gallery/competition/pages/comp01_jpg.html
Old    anthony bell (bell1)      Join Date: Feb 2008       07-20-2009, 7:45 PM Reply   
i used to injure my lower back every year i rode. two years ago i started drinking whey protien shakes right before i rode and have not had a single injury. love this stuff and will always drink a shake before i ride.
Old    michaelspsp (michaelspsp)      Join Date: Sep 2007       07-21-2009, 2:26 PM Reply   
anthony, thank you for proving my point! better safe than sorry...
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       07-21-2009, 3:23 PM Reply   
Come on Michael!

Maybe your back got stronger the more you rode? That's the more likely scenerio.
Old    michaelspsp (michaelspsp)      Join Date: Sep 2007       07-21-2009, 3:31 PM Reply   
and in order for it to get stronger...it needs the proper nutrients! tell you what. put somebody on 2000 calories of lucky charms, put somebody else on 2000 calories of whey protein. see what happens. again this is research proven by dr lemon. read the RESEARCH please.
Old    AMO (amo)      Join Date: Jan 2009       07-21-2009, 4:14 PM Reply   
^^^^^ yep yep!
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       07-21-2009, 5:27 PM Reply   
B to the S....straight up.

Protein is not going to prevent you from injuring your back. I used to get a sore back too. I trained for core strength, stability, and flexibility. My core is as strong as anyone I know, and I do it with natural foods!

But this story would make a great infomercial for EAS!

Hopefully know one reads this and thinks that all they have to do is drink protein and all will be well! Hilarious!
Old    michaelspsp (michaelspsp)      Join Date: Sep 2007       07-21-2009, 5:52 PM Reply   
ahhh, just read the latest issue of Life Extension. Will Brink reports on a new study which shows whey protein is beneficial to OLD INACTIVE PEOPLE. so therefore, would it not make sense it is beneficial to athletes????
Old    C.I.E. J-Rod (jarrod)      Join Date: May 2003       07-22-2009, 9:41 AM Reply   
Michael, why are you anti-milk?

You should watch the "Flatten your abs forever" lecture by Paul Chek. It's about nutrition btw....not working out. He pretty much says Whey Protein is a joke. You referenced him, so I suspect you respect him at some level.

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