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Old    Kona (konaking)      Join Date: Mar 2008       01-28-2009, 5:18 AM Reply   
Hey Jeff whats in the garage now?
Old    Chris (rio_sanger)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-28-2009, 7:07 AM Reply   
Jeff,you have been quiet lately, are you working with Ed on his "secret"?
Old    lakeside5_10            01-28-2009, 7:27 AM Reply   
tax season , he may be back at work
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       01-28-2009, 7:40 AM Reply   
You guys missed me?! :-) Actually my office manager just lost her mom after a protracted illness, so I'm picking up some slack at the office and like Mark suggests, 'tis the season. Stupid work anyway! :-) Plus I was just installed as the Treasurer of USA Wakeboard and that is taking up some time also.

In the garage, mostly I am breaking stuff. :-) After completing that Zylon/Kevlar board it hit home that the way we are building surf style boards is mostly based on prior convention, rather than specific engineering. Skim style folks have flat decks and 1" thick is about the max that is commercially available. I just don't like the weight of most of them.

I am "attempting" to build a surf style board that will fit in a wakeboard rack - so 1" thick max tapering to less than 1/2" at the tail. Flat deck and concaved bottom. I'm going to have to modify the fins so that I can use the 1/2" futures trailer fin box as the rail boxes. I thought the notch at the front was the same for the rail fins and trailers, but that isn't the case.

So far, all my tests of construction are creating some really cool, but devastating failures! :-) Seriously loud noises when the parts fail. :-) Woofie won't even come into the shop anymore. Poor dog. Once I get a test that doesn't fail, I'll post up.

I have no idea what Ed is up to. He's sneaky that way. :-)
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       01-28-2009, 10:33 AM Reply   
Jeff, have you ever looked at using prefab fibreglass pultrustions to provide a rib structure internally, or a structural honeycomb?
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       01-28-2009, 11:39 AM Reply   
Hey Art, thanks for following along. The now defunct Hyrdo Epic did just that. Hollow carbon shell with a rib framework, but from carbon rather than a 'glass structure. As I understood their process, they glued the frame to the deck, allowing the bottom to flex and also "morph" shape a bit. Those boards were molded in two pieces and then joined along the rails. Their downfall, so to speak, was from joining on the rails, as that is the point of greatest stress on surfboards.

I made a hollow carbon and endgrain balsa board, using a lost foam method, that was a total hog. It wound up weiging 8 pounds before traction and fin boxes.

One or even one and a half pound EPS is so light in a composite structure I haven't found a way to eliminate it, that doesn't wind up increasing
the weight substantially. Beefing the deck skin up by a pound, to eliminate 4 oz is what I've achieved. :-) Not very productive. Also,
foam just does a great job of supporting the skins and distributing loads that it's hard, at least for me, to improve on the concept.

I've looked at Nomex and Nida-core, but again those are like 4 # density. I've found it hard to beat 1.5 pcf EPS and it's $8 price tag. :-) I think if I ever got serious with creating a mold, some of these alternative materials and hollow (reinforced) construction would improve performance, as you suspect.

I can't remember who said it now, but the quote is: "The problem with super complicated builds, is that SIMPLE builds go really well."

I've had good luck with basswood and CF. I did look at some pultruded fiberglass stock a year or so ago, but I never could find anything in
4.5 foot lengths, 4 inches wide and maybe 1/16" thick. Then, I started laying up 3 layers of CF between the core and rail material which gave me the added benefit of keeping the stringer material shaped in a curve, rather than bent into the curve. I found that the bend in the stringer material weakened it and when they fail, it was spectacular. :-)

The board I referenced above, I believe will need something similar to what you mention, Art. The "plan", if I can get it to NOT BREAK :-)
is perimeter stringers and then a subset of stringers also. They will basically be under the feet and split the distance between the rails and centerline. Very roughly translating into 4 I-beams.

Surfboard construction with lightweight fabrics gains stiffness by the thickness of the board, or higher density foam. So as I eliminate that, I need to replace it with something else.

We'll see, it'll be fun even if it turns out to be crap! :-)
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       01-28-2009, 11:41 AM Reply   
The Hydroepic folks still have their website up, but I think they've been out of business for a few years now. I swiped a picture of the frame structure:

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       01-28-2009, 12:09 PM Reply   
I didn't describe that very well did I? Let me try and clarify, this: "so 1" thick max". My rack, I can't remember who makes it, has a one inch wide opening. So my aim is have the board fit into that. From the top of the deck to the bottom of the rails rails (end of the concave) will measure 1" thick max. The board, in the middle will have a thickness less than 1 inch, using calipers to measure, as you know from your building experience. To compensate for that, the plan is to introduce the "subset" stringers. Hopefully it will be enough!!!! :-) I'll make James ride it first, just in case it isn't enough. :-)
Old    lakeside5_10            01-28-2009, 12:22 PM Reply   
i wish my boards fit in my racks , they are from monster tower and i have 4 of them.i need to look into making a rack that holds 12 boards or so. my 1" boards dont fit them

(Message edited by lakeside5_10 on January 28, 2009)
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       01-30-2009, 7:26 PM Reply   
My next two projects. The blue blank is a composite sandwich. The core is 1.5 pcf EPS, the blue foam is Divinycell H45 - it's a 3 pcf crossed linked pvc foam. My goal on that one is 4 pounds even with paint, fins and traction.

The slab of EPS is the build described above.

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       01-30-2009, 7:31 PM Reply   
For that last picture, what I want to do is cut the blank, but leave the blank all in one piece. So I will just be cutting slices where the two rough freehand curves are, leaving everything still connected up by the front foot. Then I will wet out some carbon and insert it into the slices. Place the whole thing into a bag and I will have created some "subset" stringers that basically only extend under the feet.

I'm going to test with two layers of 5.7 oz UNI sandwiching the blank together.

(Message edited by surfdad on January 30, 2009)
Old    Lakewakes Wakesurf Boards (brewkettle)      Join Date: Jan 2009       01-31-2009, 8:53 AM Reply   
txsurf ,
i think the industry will be going to thinner boards of 1.5 or less
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       01-31-2009, 9:26 AM Reply   
I think that I concur with brewkettle. One of the most innovative boards introduced over the last few years was the Walzer Alpha. I have one of the original boards that was 7/8" thick. I think that those folks prefabbed the bottom lamination and then epoxied that skin on. I remember mine weighing 4 pounds naked. It was the lightest board I had ridden, at the time.

The "skate deck" inspired board I just finished (and we'll ride today) is 1 1/8" thick. I can remember reading a quote by Greg Loehr of Resin Research fame that said the domed decks that increased the thickness of the boards were junk. Thinner boards rode better, but would snap based on the old PUPE construction, so they created the domed decks to keep selling the "junk".

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Old    WAlove (masonwakerider)      Join Date: May 2003       01-31-2009, 9:55 AM Reply   
i have an old inland chubby thats probaly around an inch thick with sharp rails the entire edge. Its a lot of people's favorite board because it really easy to crank turns. We are all snowboarders so we are used to turning with an edge more then the fins.
Old    Lakewakes Wakesurf Boards (brewkettle)      Join Date: Jan 2009       01-31-2009, 10:22 AM Reply   
surfdad did you get my pics SPLASH
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       01-31-2009, 2:49 PM Reply   
Yes brewkettle I did, thanks. I like that board!

This little board rode well, considering it was freezing balls cold!

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       01-31-2009, 2:57 PM Reply   
The "thinness" with deep fins translates into aggressive turns. The board is very stiff and light, so it felt like you could toss it anywhere you wanted. Dennis was manning the camera today as Judy chose NOT to freeze. :-) What doesn't show up in the pictures is the end of James aerials. He said he felt like he could toss the board anywhere he wanted and he boned a few airs and the board just followed. One of my concerns was that the board would wind up too light and wouldn't follow in the air, but it didn't seem to be the case.
Old    Rob (wakesurf_ohio)      Join Date: Jun 2007       01-31-2009, 3:38 PM Reply   
I notice the 3/2/1's instead of the scimitars .. new fin of choice?
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       01-31-2009, 3:45 PM Reply   
Can you see that in the pictures?! That's incredible eyesight! I'm lucky to even find the computer screen. :-)

Yes, indeed, 3/2/1's are what James is riding these days. They don't trim as fast, but offer James more squirt than the Scim's.
Old    wardovision (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       01-31-2009, 4:16 PM Reply   
You kind of guessed it Jeff but not exactly. I've been actually thinking about building myself a table lately and trying out some new things. I learned a couple new tricks in Cabo that were somewhat unorthodox for vacuum bagged boards but very impressive (resulting in a much stronger board)
Old    Rob (wakesurf_ohio)      Join Date: Jun 2007       01-31-2009, 4:22 PM Reply   
haha.. Maybe if I get a new board i'll get it with 3/2/1's.. However I can't justify buying a new bullet when I have only ridden mine about a dozen times..
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       01-31-2009, 4:29 PM Reply   
I've always said you have the skill set caskimmer, I'd love to see you building again. Anything you can share that doesn't disclose proprietary stuff?

Rob, why don't you buy a set of 3/2/1's? Much cheaper than a new board.
Old    Rob (wakesurf_ohio)      Join Date: Jun 2007       01-31-2009, 4:50 PM Reply   
What i meant was if I do buy a new board i'll get it with 3/2/1's.. but for now I'm good and over 2 months away from even being on the water, let alone riding when its not cold!
Old    Brian (TXSurf) (bac)      Join Date: Feb 2008       01-31-2009, 5:12 PM Reply   
Jim, I completely understand and respect what you are saying. And for the answer to your question/statement of thinner boards, there is always adaptations. However, and this may just be my opinion, but I don't see alot of people giving up on their "surf" style surfboards, that are much ticker than most any rack at all will accept. I know that alot of the industry is going thinner, I think one reason is that no one has responded with a good answer of a true surf rack that will hold a true surf style board that many people prefer to ride. Only time will tell I guess. I can say that I have included some thinner racks for those style boards, but will also being doing thicker style board racks and I have a very cool custom rack I'm almost finished working on that will hold any size surfboard and many of them. I feel that there is still a very limited choice when it comes to racks for surf boards out there, I plan to change that.
Old    wardovision (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       01-31-2009, 6:15 PM Reply   
Like I said I've been thinking about it but only to make boards for myself. I don't miss the rest of it.

Sorry, I really wish I could because I'd like to see construction techniques improved but I also like being welcomed in Cabo.
Old    Lakewakes Wakesurf Boards (brewkettle)      Join Date: Jan 2009       01-31-2009, 7:39 PM Reply   
i spoke with futures a couple of weeks ago and the are making a h-comb vector 2 in 4" , i spoke with them about the 1/2 boxes that surfdad wants but they said you dont gain that much weight savings. I would like to see some 3.5 and 4.0 scim fins
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-01-2009, 5:38 AM Reply   
CAskimmer, I hear you on both accounts. Hopefully you'll get to build for yourself, and we'll see some pictures of you and your crew on the board!

Hey brewkettle, sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm not concerned about weight savings on the boxes. I want to thin a board down to a max 1" thick and then taper to a 1/2" tail. With the concave, and thinner deck, the 3/4" depth rail boxes poke through the deck at the trailing edge. My "fix" is to try the 1/2" depth trailers as rail boxes. In measuring, the 1/4" difference will allow me to shape the board the way I want. I just need to be careful to get the cant correct, as Smed pointed out.

When is Future going to introduce the clear hex Vector II? I'd like to see more light weight option from those folks.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-01-2009, 7:18 AM Reply   
They say a picture is worth a thousand words! This is the concept I want to try - a staged foil, not quite that pronounced, but some and more than James is riding now. I'd like the max thickness to remain at 1" so the tail will get thin.

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Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       02-01-2009, 7:22 AM Reply   
Looks like a hull? Not really sure I understand what a hull is, am I far off?
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-01-2009, 7:43 AM Reply   
Well, a hull is affectionately called a "stubby". Thin-railed, S-decked, convex-bottomed, with a finely foiled fin set way forward is how they are best described. This is a hull, what you can't see is the bottom is convex. Also, I think the dimensions on this board have the width at 23.5"

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Old    Lakewakes Wakesurf Boards (brewkettle)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-01-2009, 7:50 AM Reply   
Surfdad,
this is what you do with the boxes , beltsand the bottom of the box to fit the .5 fin then put a strip of tape over the hole , cut your .5hole. install a small strip of glass in hole and epoxy the box in.
The fin i saw was a translucent green
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-01-2009, 8:02 AM Reply   
Oh that's a novel approach, just hack the bottom off. With the glass in the hole, it would keep the strength good...still seems that buying trailer boxes is easier. I am SUPER lazy! :-)
Old    Lakewakes Wakesurf Boards (brewkettle)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-01-2009, 8:17 AM Reply   
yea but you wont have to worry about setting the cant,
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-01-2009, 8:28 AM Reply   
Actually, I still do, because I have that concave. With the trailers, I'll just have to adjust the cut a bit more. I have always had to monkey with propping up the template to get my angle correct. I'll have to see how hard it is with the trailers, your method may prove easier overall.

I do like your enginuity brewkettle!
Old    Lakewakes Wakesurf Boards (brewkettle)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-01-2009, 9:23 AM Reply   
its all that heavy beer i drink,
Old    wardovision (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       02-01-2009, 12:39 PM Reply   
btw Jeff I've been meaning for some time to ask you if the chemicals mess with your immune system? It seemed like I was always rundown and on the verge of being sick when I spent a lot of time in the shop and I haven't been sick once since.

(Message edited by CAskimmer on February 01, 2009)
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       02-01-2009, 1:24 PM Reply   
Are you guys still talking about beer?
Old    James Harold (jdjjamesz)      Join Date: Mar 2008       02-01-2009, 4:40 PM Reply   
dam jeff, you must have alot of boards laying around.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-01-2009, 7:52 PM Reply   
James, I do! However, I always seem to have room for "one more" :-)

Hey CASkimmer, I haven't noticed anything. Although I suit up and wear an organic respirator almost all of the time I am working on a board.

I've always known you to be a stickler for safety, do you think you might have an allergy to epoxy, fiberglass or something?
Old    wardovision (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       02-02-2009, 7:59 AM Reply   
I could be. I'm really diligent about wearing a respirator whenever I'm in a shop but not so much with skin contact. (if I'm not actually doing something I forget about it)
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-02-2009, 8:19 AM Reply   
Yeah, I know you are very careful. I was lulled into a false sense of security with the LOW or NO VOC claims for epoxy. I did a little looking at the MSDS's for some epoxy products I was using and a number of them use formaldehyde to cut the product to get easy mix ratios. That was a real eye-opener for me. Ever since, I am hyper-vigilant when using the stuff. The skin contact is so easy, though, as you point out.
Old    Drew Danielo (ollies_drew)      Join Date: Jan 2008       02-02-2009, 11:20 AM Reply   
Jeff, That zebra striped board looks really cool in pictures. I like the artwork. Reminds me of some of the older shots of Laird Hamilton's zebra striped boards.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-02-2009, 11:29 AM Reply   
Why thank you Drew. I stole the design from a Powell Classic skateboard deck. My art work DEFINATELY looks better from a distance than up close :-)

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Old    Drew Danielo (ollies_drew)      Join Date: Jan 2008       02-02-2009, 11:36 AM Reply   
HAHA I use to have that board I am getting old...
Old    wardovision (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       02-02-2009, 11:45 AM Reply   
yeah, I had it too.

skateboarding sure has changed since the Bones Brigade days
Old    Chris (rio_sanger)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-02-2009, 12:38 PM Reply   
You guys aren't old, I'm old...
I had already been skateboarding five years when the first clay wheel boards came out

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Old    Blair J (rhawn)      Join Date: Dec 2006       02-02-2009, 12:54 PM Reply   
You're right, that's old haha. I had a Tony Alva Fish as a teen. Wierd looking board, was nice and wide for my giant feet.
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-02-2009, 12:57 PM Reply   
Too funny - "yeah, you're old". :-)

Original Hobie! That sure brings back memories. When we were kids, we couldn't afford the Hobies, so we would steal someone's sister's steel wheeled skates and skate key, then hammer them onto a 2 x 4! Good times, lots of skinned knees and elbows if my memory serves. :-)
Old    Chris (rio_sanger)      Join Date: Apr 2007       02-02-2009, 1:08 PM Reply   
Jeff,

...and angry sisters if my memory serves!
Old    wardovision (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       02-02-2009, 2:15 PM Reply   
this is my 1st skate deck(shot of a re-issue)
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Old    Lakewakes Wakesurf Boards (brewkettle)      Join Date: Jan 2009       02-02-2009, 5:01 PM Reply   
ok , i'll play and still have mineUpload
Old    wardovision (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       02-02-2009, 8:24 PM Reply   
Sweet another G&S, I wish I had a couple of my old skates. G&S was my 1st sponsor of any kind and will always be special to me. If their re-issues had more nose I'd have one. Here's my first G&S ad circa 1986. (I'm on the far left)
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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-02-2009, 8:29 PM Reply   
That's so cool! What were you 12 or 14? BLAST from the past! Hey CAskimmer, you once posted a picture of you doing something over a spine. That was when James and I were building the half pipe. Do you have any more of those pictures?
Old    wardovision (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       02-02-2009, 9:06 PM Reply   
The one where I'm cheating with an extremely early grab 360?
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backside over the hip
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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-10-2009, 5:35 AM Reply   
That's the sequence I was remembering caskimmer! Thanks.

I finished bagging the external lamination of Zylon on this board, with some interesting observations. It's weight now is 2.5 pounds. I am using a 1.5 pound density EPS, with 3 pound denisty divinycell H45 "epidermus". The stiffness is a tad greater than a similar build with higher density rails and skins and the weight is a tad less. I was able to save weight by eliminating a high density insert for the fins and in the reduction from 5 pcf to 3 pcf high density foam skins and rails.

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Edited for my inability to type! :-)

(Message edited by surfdad on February 10, 2009)
Old    wardovision (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       02-10-2009, 7:45 AM Reply   
so the added re-enforcement in the fins didn't make enough of a difference to justify the extra work & weight?
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       02-10-2009, 9:23 AM Reply   
The work isn't so much an issue for me - overall this is a ridiculously complicated build. :-) However, the HD foam inserts aren't needed in the 1.5 pcf foam, it's rigid/strong enough. In the 1.0 pcf foam, the HD inserts are needed. What I found is that adding that foam insert added almost the same amount of weight as if I had just used 1.5 pcf foam as the core. It netted me about 2 oz of savings. However, it created a stress point. When the boards would break, they always broke at the leading edge of the HD insert, along the rail. My guess is that the EPS at the insert separated or gave way and allowed that area to flex too much in relation to the insert - which then acted as a fulcrum. I am theorizing that a uniform density core material is actually stronger in that it flexes or compresses at an equal rate, rather than creating a shear plane.

It was also hard to shape in that area, the lower density EPS would shape away much quicker than the HD PolyU, so I had difficulty with the transition. When I would vacuum the skin to the bottom, there tended to be a slight depression around the HD insert owing to the higher density, I'm sure.

Overall, a slightly higher density core material seems to be the answer and, is also easier to manage.

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