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Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-24-2009, 8:29 AM Reply   
What does everyone think is going to happen in the next few years? More wakesurf converts from the wakeboarding? More pockets of wakesurfer developing across the country? How about board technology, accessories like racks and traction. More personalization of boards (or how many different way can Surf Dad build a board). How about wakesurf tow boats, more brands supporting the sport, new features, what else? Are we at the panicle or do you think thereís more room for growth?

Iíve been running a number of events for fun. I wonder if the events should be competitions or get together ďSurf and TurfĒ events. Competitions are fun but from my experience thereís less ride time. Surf and Turfs are easy but they donít push me to improve my skills. Should we focus on getting more people to ride and share the experience or would more competitions grow the sport more?

What do you think the next level is and what do you think it would take to take to get there?
Old    Chris (rio_sanger)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-24-2009, 3:43 PM Reply   
"Should we focus on getting more people to ride and share the experience or would more competitions grow the sport more?"


Show, I hear this said by you and others, and wonder why anyone in any sport would want MORE people to do it.
Why do you care if more people wakesurf, wouldn't less be better?

I have surfed (ocean) for over 40 years and have all but given up, because of the crowds.
The same goes for snowboarding, some areas have gotten so crowded, that I will only go on weekdays now.

For me, I love it when we're only boat on the water, certainly fewer rather than more.

So when someone says "I want the sport to grow" what are your reasons?
Am I missing something? Just curious...

.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-24-2009, 4:05 PM Reply   
Chris Walker, USA Wakeboard President, has become a big supporter of our efforts. I'll be able to say a little more about Nationals after the USA Wakeboard meeting this week.

Chris, I donít have no financial stake related to wakesurfing. There maybe some perks but they are small and few between.

Venues like the TWC Secret Spot and the Muncie Water Bowl put everyone together in a somewhat isolated environment, kind of like a college campus environment. In that isolation you get to know people more closely.

For me its life style. I have enjoyed meeting fellow surfers at events. I know quite a few local wakesurfers as well as a few more across the country. Locally we have a small group surfers that I ride with on a regular basis. Itís fun to get out with my friends.

My kids are growing up. This is a life style that Iíd like to keep for a while. The days of packing up the family and heading to the lake for a day or weekend are over. Organizing events puts me in touch with other surfers. One day, one comp a year in Indiana is enough to catch up with good friends.

Some of my best boating memories are teaching people to ski, kneeboard, wakeboard, wakesurf for the first time. You always get the biggest smiles. Last year I helped the Adaptive Adventure Sports Coalition (TAASC) with their Learn-to-Ski/Wounded Warrior program. I helped their athletes ski and helped ďBlind PeteĒ learn to wake board. Iíve had Pete on board my boat a number of times since. You have to meet Pete, heís got a really big personality, heís supper stoked all the time and just fun to be around.

Thatís why I organize events.
Old    Chris (rio_sanger)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-24-2009, 4:32 PM Reply   
Thanks Show, a very good answer and reasons as an event planner.

I guess I was thinking more from the individual standpoint that less = more
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-24-2009, 5:06 PM Reply   
I don't know, I think less is less. From an individual stand point you canít go wakesurfing alone. You need at least two other bodies. Wouldnít be better to have a good group of friends to ride with?

One day a crazy woman in a 2001 waved me down while we were surfing. They had been trying to wakesurf on their boat but couldn't quite get it. She wanted my number so she could ask if she could call to crew with us some time. We pulled our surfer in and gave her and her husband a few runs right there and then. Then I sent them off with my Red Tide for a few hours.

They were super stoked. Now I ride with this couple all the time; theyíre great fun to ride with. They also placed first in the 2008 World wakesurf championship menís and womenís amateur surf division. Sharing the stoke has its benefits.

Another family that I met at events has invited my crew down to their cabin quite a few times. Theyíre such a special family and time at the cabin is very special. One of the better perks.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-24-2009, 5:10 PM Reply   
Thereís more than events. How about surf tech and skills. Wouldnít want to ride a better board or learn a new skill?

How about boat tech?
Old    Chris (rio_sanger)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-24-2009, 6:01 PM Reply   
Show, I should have known better than to start off with a question to an engineer!

Your answers are well thought out, and clearly convey your point.

I'm more simplistic in my thinking: shorter lift lines = more runs, fewer people out in the line up = more waves, fewer boats in the water = more glass.

You do SHOW (pun intended) that there are different ways of looking at the same thing.

Keep up the good work, and I hope all those new riders you enlist show up on your lake , not mine! JK haha
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-24-2009, 6:14 PM Reply   
It's all good. Just so I don't send anyone to your lake, which one would that be? :-)
Old    Deepcove (deepcove)      Join Date: Mar 2004       01-24-2009, 7:56 PM Reply   
Call me selfish, But I am with Chris....the less people on the body of water I use the better the conditions for me.
Old    Brian (TXSurf) (bac)      Join Date: Feb 2008       01-24-2009, 8:17 PM Reply   
I can say that I am in the process of getting ready to launch my new company, we will be focusing right now on nothing but surf specific racks (and we are going to offer a few different styles as well) to start and a few other boat items. I'm not saying anymore for now, but we should hopefully start launching and advertising here within the next 6 months. I must say I am somewhat hesitant to enter the market with everything going on, however I also feel that there is still plenty of potential for massive growth within the industry over the years to come. I am personally excited about the future of out sport. It seems to me that I see more and more boats out surfing every year.

I can see the viewpoint of less is better, but at the same time, there's alot of bodies of what to ride around here and most people where we ride, when they see us sacking out the boat, they stay away from us to avoid the wake. Sure, sometimes its inevitable that things will get crowded, thats just how it is being out in a boat sometimes. Just like in the ocean, thats why's its always nice to have a secret spot or two to ride in, be it ocean or boat. I think its just going to continue to grow.

(Message edited by bac on January 24, 2009)
Old    Blair J (rhawn)      Join Date: Dec 2006       01-25-2009, 8:48 AM Reply   
"Show, I hear this said by you and others, and wonder why anyone in any sport would want MORE people to do it.
Why do you care if more people wakesurf, wouldn't less be better? "

No offense, but isn't this pretty narrow minded? The % of boats on the water that are surfing is incredibly low. Growing the sport is going to have 0 impact on the # of jet-skis, tubers, skiers, fisherman, etc. I would pay good money to replace all of the koonies on my lake with wakesurfers. But since you can't control the # of people on a lake, why wouldn't you want to expand the sport you love?
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-25-2009, 9:05 AM Reply   
In a fantasy world I would have my own private lake in my back yard and Hugh Hefnerís job. The lake would give me pristine surfing opportunities whenever I wanted. Hughís job would give me access to all of the friendly riding crew and companionship that I could ever ask for.

So, can we put the why are you trying to put more surfers on my lake question to bed?
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       01-25-2009, 9:25 AM Reply   
Move to Idaho, no lift lines at ski resorts, huge lakes with very few people, but sorry no Playboy mansion:-(
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-25-2009, 9:37 AM Reply   
The Maumee, Muskingum, and Ohio Rivers provide great opportunities to surf with little competition for clear, well undisturbed muddy, water. Still no Playboy Mission.
Old    Blair J (rhawn)      Join Date: Dec 2006       01-25-2009, 12:16 PM Reply   
Jim Kelly has a mansion on my crowded lake, does that count? Rumor is he's never been to it.
Old    Deepcove (deepcove)      Join Date: Mar 2004       01-25-2009, 1:39 PM Reply   
I do not understand why there is always this need for people to "Expand the sport they love". If you enjoy it then go out and enjoy it.....and be thankful that you are able to do something you love!
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-25-2009, 2:03 PM Reply   
Explain to me why people have children and then Iíll explain why people seek to expand upon something they love. If you're in the business you're have an obvious reason to grow the sport. I'm not in the business.

Larry Mann developed Fresh Air Exhaust to reduce CO exposure for wake surfing? What it the Jeff Page at Inland Surfer didnít develop and keep developing wakesurf boards, weíd be riding huge ocean boards. What if Jeff Walker wasnít tinkering in his garage, would Mike Walker have developed a line of wakesurf boards? What if Zap never adapted skim boards for wake surfing, Would Drew be the World champ? Jerry Price has been wake surfing since well before most of us, what if Jerry never came up with Shred Stixx; what board would you ride? What is Centurion never promoted wake surfing, would you have ever thought to give it a try?

Youíll never find out how far you can grow if you live under a rock.
Old    Deepcove (deepcove)      Join Date: Mar 2004       01-25-2009, 3:59 PM Reply   
Show,

Regarding your first sentence, I have 2 kids and do not see the correlation. Perhaps people start familes for different reasons and I am guessing my reason would be different than yours.

I do not think Centurion had anything to do with my decision to try wakesurfing and yes I did start on a long board and would probably still be using it and enjoying the sport as much as I am now even if there were no other board options. I see where you are going with your argument and agree some what. But there is a down side as well. I will use Mountain biking as an example, I started riding in the 80's when the North Shore mountains in Vancouver had pristine natural flowing trails with very little traffic. Then the sport picked up momemtum and became very popular. Into the 90's along came shuttling and an enormous amount of riders, both good and posers. Before you know it the trails turned into nothing more than rutted out roots and rocks mixed with garbage left behind and an ongoing battle with hikers....yes it used to be fun back in the day but now it has turned into more of a fashion statement and the big bike corporations love to sell you stuff! I have watched a sport I love turn into something completely different. I have wakeskated for a few years and am now seeing the same thing happen; you have guys in their garges pumping out beautiful hand made product for the sport they love. Mean while it is picking up popularity so you have the likes of Hyperlite and LF jumping on the band wagon pumping out off shore made products with nice margins ( Is this why Shredd Stixx is made off shore?)....kinda makes it hard for the true lovers of the sport to continue with their passion.

You are right that do not grow very far by living under a rock, does this have anything to do with weather or not you choose to promote an grow a sport that you love?

Hey dude...I respect your opinion....I may not agree with it.....but I do respect.

Cheers
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       01-25-2009, 4:03 PM Reply   
I don't have a dog in this race, but wanted to share this picture from the USA Water Ski museum...it's mostly waterski history, but tucked up almost in the rafters of the building were these three boards. An original Skurfer on the left, check out the Wakemaster "Wake Surfing Board". Double bump, swallow, full traction. I want to say that is circa 1960'ish. Those folks must have been developing around the same time as Jerry Price of Shred Stixx. Looks to be a sub 5' board.

Upload
Old    Sue (malibu)      Join Date: Sep 2004       01-25-2009, 5:00 PM Reply   
Duffy
Don't tell them about the huge Lakes in Idaho. That's where I ride! I also enjoy having the lake to myself and my crew.
It would be fun to ride in a contest though and see what tricks other riders can do.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-25-2009, 5:37 PM Reply   
Sue, something tells me you'd be a blast to ride with. Anyway I just sold the house and will start looking for property in Idaho next week ---- NOT.

Deep, I think we can agree to disagree. I think you took my comments in the well intended sprit they were meant to be. Wakesurfing is something we both enjoy and weíll enjoy the sport the way that best suits us.
Old    WakeDoc (riverrunner)      Join Date: Aug 2006       01-25-2009, 5:52 PM Reply   
Jeff, is that the first board u made when u invented wakesurfing?
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-25-2009, 6:10 PM Reply   
Doc you can't be serious, Al Gore invented wake surfing!
Old    Dennis (dennish)      Join Date: May 2005       01-25-2009, 6:36 PM Reply   
Why is this forum no fun anymore? Getting to be like the wakeboarding forum. Everybody putting down everything anyone says about their boat,board,hairstyle et al.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-25-2009, 6:43 PM Reply   
Well, I can say this thread didn't go the direction I thought that it would.
Old    Blair J (rhawn)      Join Date: Dec 2006       01-25-2009, 7:28 PM Reply   
"Why is this forum no fun anymore? Getting to be like the wakeboarding forum. Everybody putting down everything anyone says about their boat,board,hairstyle et al."

I don't get it, nothing but negativity for straight-forward posts like these.

Grow and Evolve your favorite sport? WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOU WANT TO DO THAT???? HUR
Old    Carl Philippon (kernaltao)      Join Date: Oct 2008       01-26-2009, 7:17 AM Reply   
The more people that get into the sport, the more chance we can continue to do what we love. I have read numerous articles where areas have either already banned wakesurfing or are considering it. The reasons are as varied as safety - riding too close to the boat - to damage of property - due to the huge wake. The more people we get involved in the sport will hopefully stop these agendas by voicing opposition to this type of legislation. One could probably argue, though, that as it becomes more popular, it also receives more attention. I will just be extremely selfish and hope that it becomes very popular everywhere but my lake.

I do really enjoy sharing this passion with others, though. Whenever I take someone out on our boat that has never wakesfurfed, they are hooked after the first time! I love to see the smile on their face after their first run.

Not sure where I am going with this other than to agree with Show about sharing the love of the sport and to point out that there are other reasons for getting more people involved in a sport: Namely, to protect it!

As for new future developments in the sport, I think we will see new designs for both boards and boats. There are MANY - Jeff included - leading the way in the board design area. I'm not quite sure what the next evolution will be, though I am very excited to see.

I see almost all major inboard boat manufacturers developing designs that fit the wakesurfing niche. Malibu's new VLX has a hull design that I think is far superior than any other for wakesfurfing and wakeboarding. It takes far less ballast to get a great wakesurf wake than other boats. I think the next step is to develop a better ballast system. MB seems to have a great design, but I think it needs to be improved such that you can fine tune where the weight is in the boat (bow, stern, mid, etc.). I think you will see larger ballast tanks and faster pumps (or something like the MB solution). Also, I believe there will be other foil design improvements like the Wedge and SwitchBlade. Lastly, most all boat manufacturers will only provide engines with catalytic converters or some other technology to reduce CO emissions. Maybe they will all use the Enzo design to shift the exhaust to the sides or something like Fresh Air Exhaust. If they go with the Enzo design, though, I hope they make it quieter!

I am very excited about the future of wakesurfing!
Old    Sue (malibu)      Join Date: Sep 2004       01-26-2009, 10:37 AM Reply   
Show,
You can come to Idaho anytime as long as you bring your boat! I would love to ride behind an Enzo.
Sue
Old    Chris (rio_sanger)      Join Date: Apr 2007       01-26-2009, 11:06 AM Reply   
"Well, I can say this thread didn't go the direction I thought that it would."

"Why is this forum no fun anymore?"

I thought this was a discussion board, so if people have different viewpoints on something, it's not fun?
If we all agreed on everything, where's the discussion?

Ed asked, "Should we focus on getting more people to ride and share the experience or would more competitions grow the sport more?"

I brought up the question "how does more people doing any sport make it better for you?" I thought that was a pretty straightforward question with no bashing.

Show and Blair made some points expressing their views.

Deepcove and I made reference to some other sports, where more people doing it has been detrimental.
His mountainbiking example really hit home for me. I've seen too many of my favorite mountain bike trails closed due to too many riders.

Sue sees both sides, she likes having the lake to herself, but also might want to compete someday.

Carl points out "One could probably argue, though, that as it becomes more popular, it also receives more attention."
I agree. In our society, it seems the more people that take part in an activity, it usually leads to more regulation. Many of the local beaches I grew up surfing at as a kid, now have limited time of day and area restrictions for surfing.


So far, I think we have engaged in healthy dialog on this thread. No hating or bashing, just different opinions.
I'm sure wakesurfing will continue to grow in popularity, is that a good thing? I guess only time will tell...

Now go out and enjoy what you love doing! ...just be careful what you wish for.
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       01-26-2009, 11:11 AM Reply   
Sue, hopefully I can find an enzo, you can come to sandpoint and ride anytime. What boat do you ride?
Old    Sue (malibu)      Join Date: Sep 2004       01-26-2009, 12:15 PM Reply   
Duffy,
I ride behind a Sanger V210. I would love to come join you at Sandpoint! My husband and I bring the boat up every summer around the end of July. We stay about 3 weeks and hit as many lakes and rivers as we can. North Id is my favorite place to wakesurf.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-26-2009, 7:14 PM Reply   
See, how Duffy and Sue got together or rather might get together. That's what I'm about talking about.

Honestly I think this has been a good dialog, but again just not where I thought it would go.

I have an ulterior motive, but I canít let the cat out of the bag yet.
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       01-26-2009, 8:15 PM Reply   
Sue,
Do you ever ride Lake Pend Oreille?
Old    Andrew Taft (taft)      Join Date: Jul 2006       01-26-2009, 11:57 PM Reply   
What's next for wakesurfing?

Well I hope competitions in Canada is one thing on the horizon. We used to get a pro tour stop up in Kelowna on Lake Okanagan, but they banned it last year (they didn't like all the partying it brought.....). Hopefully wakesurfing can take its place, spread the sport some more.
Old    WakeDoc (riverrunner)      Join Date: Aug 2006       01-27-2009, 7:42 AM Reply   
"but I canít let the cat out of the bag yet"

Spill it already Ed! that is the 2nd or 3rd time you have mentioned a "motive"

Who wants to know what Ed is holding back?
Old    lakeside5_10            01-27-2009, 8:19 AM Reply   
say it
Old    Ryan Bates (surfin247)      Join Date: Dec 2008       01-27-2009, 11:53 AM Reply   
I think the best thing for the long term of the sport is a wakesurf specific boat. It should'nt be to hard to develop a boat that makes a 3.5-4 ft wake clean on both sides simultaneously. Have all the ballast built into the hull say 3600-4000lbs. VD setup and longer stern lockers to allow you to put your wakesurf boards in there. Down here in Fl. if you keep your custom wakesurf board in the racks it will bake and shortly thereafter delam. Also, why not an elongated oval shaped rudder. Similar to the ones on jetski's, so the prop wash is directed aft, and you would have better control steering. Hull design is the key. Look what they have done for wakeboarding in the last 5 yrs. No more slamming a skiboat to make a wakeboard wake. Now just do that for wakesurfing, so we don't have to keeping slamming a wakeboard boat to make a wakesurf wake. Ed, was this the topic you were thinking about.
Old    Sue (malibu)      Join Date: Sep 2004       01-27-2009, 12:00 PM Reply   
Duffy,
Yes! I love ride both Lake Pend Oreille at Farragut State Park and the Pend Oreille river near the town of Priest River. We will have to get together this summer. I will let you know when we are heading up that way in July.
Old    Ryan Bates (surfin247)      Join Date: Dec 2008       01-27-2009, 12:58 PM Reply   
A good way to get an idea for a good wakesurf hull is to look at the kind of wake your different boards make when you ride them. One of the best I've seen is off a retro fish. The lines of the board are similar to what I saw coming off the stern of a lot of sailboats that were running straight downwind. Shape is also similar to the oil tankers in Tx. or even small fish/shrimp boats. I have seen some killer wakes coming off the backs of small fishing(about 25 ft.) boats in Tampa Bay. Wakes is 3 to 4ft. tall and clean on both sides prop wash is 8-10ft. back of stern and doesn't spray like a fire hydrant and boat speed about 9-10 knots. Should'nt be hard on a CAD system to figure out what it would take to create the ideal wakesurf conditions , and then above the waterline make it cosmetically appealing.
Old    WakeDoc (riverrunner)      Join Date: Aug 2006       01-30-2009, 8:36 AM Reply   
Come on Ed, youíve had a couple of days to OK it with the Commissioner of Wakesurfing, whatís the Big Secret?
Old    wardovision (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       01-30-2009, 11:23 AM Reply   
As much as I'd like to ride behind one IMO a wakesurf specific boat will be the sport's undoing. If wakes get much bigger those in charge will have no choice but to draft regulations preventing the usage of such.

By all means find ways to create cleaner wakes but if they get much bigger we won't have as many places to enjoy them
Old    Ryan Bates (surfin247)      Join Date: Dec 2008       01-30-2009, 12:33 PM Reply   
If you made a wakesurf specific boat that had clean wakes on both sides, 3 ft. high would be plenty. Also, in creating clean wakes on both sides the two wakes would help cancel each other ,so the residual wave would be less than the wave made by listing the boat to oneside. I've seen this demonstrated behind sailboats and small fishing boats. The biggest residual wave on most boats is not from the side the rider is riding on (weighted side). It is the opposite side(unweighted side) because the bow of the boat is plowing through the water on that side and pushing a wall of water. Also, that side(unweighted) doesn't create a curl in the wake which helps to dissipate the effects of the wake especially when it hits shoreline. We surf on a very long narrow lake, and these effects are quite apparent from shore. That is why I think that hull design which cleans up the wake on both sides(no listing of boat to oneside) would make it an easier sell to the authorities that this sport is safe and not damaging. The boat would basically be a slow moving wakeboard boat with a little bit larger wake. The other thing to keep in mind our wakes might be taller than wakeboarders, but there are fewer waves in succession and they are moving much slower. Stand on shore sometime and watch the effects of the wakes. Wakeboard wakes are usuaslly 5-6 waves in succession moving very quickly. They cause a churning effect kind of like a rototiller. Wakesurf wakes are mostly just one sometimes two. They move very slowly and do not have that churning effect. Sometimes they just wash up shore and that's it. If you stand in the surf you'll get a real good idea what is going on with these two different wakes. Wakeboard wake you will feel sand,pebbles and rocks being churned up hitting you in the legs. A wakesurf wake though taller and bigger doesn't churn up all that material, and because it is slower moving it tends to just wash up and that is it. Living on the most narrow part of our lake and being an owner with an all floating dock and no seawall,I have watched this closely and you might even say studied this to help me deal with both kinds of wakes and their effects on both docks and shoreline. Like Wakedoc states, I also would like to know what Ed's got cooking. It's usually something insightful.
Old    wardovision (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       01-30-2009, 1:27 PM Reply   
Once regulation begins it's not going to matter if it's wakeboard or wakesurf, All large wakes will be prohibited. I also know our boat comes a lot closer to being swamped by other wakesurfers than wakeboarders.
Old    Andrew Taft (taft)      Join Date: Jul 2006       01-30-2009, 2:12 PM Reply   
Thankfully, the lakes where I live are largely unregulated. 4 seasons now and I haven't seen a single police/coastguard boat on the water.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-30-2009, 4:12 PM Reply   
ThereĎs more energy in the first wake than following wakes. I tried to surf the second wake last summer. There wasn't enough push to keep me going.

I had the math somewhere stating that ski boat wakes have more energy than wakeboard boats, not sure I can find it again, might be in the USA Water Ski information packet. Let me show you that generally speaking wakesurf wakes have much less energy than faster moving wakes. Kinetic energy, the energy of motion, is described by the equation 1/2mv^2.

Most boats weigh about 4,000 pounds. Wakeboarding ballast runs from nothing to Epicís built-in 4,000 pounds, few use that much weight. I get a great wakesurf wake with about 1,500 pounds of ballast, others use more weight. Letís just say that regardless of what sport weíre talking about the ballast is the same, and therefore the displacement is the same. So, if the displacement is the same the mass in our wakes is the same for both wakeboarding and wakesurfing.

Suppose your boat moves twice as much mass at wakesurf speeds than when operating at wakeboard speeds. Letís use 4 pounds for both wakesurf wakeboarding (a simplification to be sure). We can convert 10 mph to 14.7 feet/s, also note that 20 mph is 29.4 feet/s. Suppose also that our wakesurfing speed is 10 mph while our wakeboarding speed is 20 mph. The wakesurf energy would be WSE = Ĺ*4*14.7*14.7 = 432 foot pounds. The wakeboard energy WBE would be Ĺ*4*29.4*29.4 = 1728 foot pounds. The wakeboard energy is four times the wakesurf energy!

How about a bare footing boat at 40 mph moving 1/2 the mass of water of a wake boat? BFE = Ĺ*2*58.8*58.8 = 3457 foot pounds. Letís start protecting our shores based on information and fact first. Ban bear footing first! OK this isnít completely fair the bare foot boat is on plane and I think this analysis breaks down.

Banning wake boats on the Ohio River will also put coal delivery via barge to an end as well as closing coal burning power plants on major rivers across the US. I canít see that happening. If they do ban wakesurf boats on the Ohio River Iím going to repower with a coal fired steam engine and use coal for ballast.

I think the unbalanced wake is essential for wakesurfing. It would take way to much energy to make good surfing wakes on both sides.

(Message edited by Bigshow on January 30, 2009)
Old    wardovision (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       01-30-2009, 5:03 PM Reply   
I'm sure any such laws that might arise would apply to recreational vehicles only. I want a bigger wake as much the next guy but there's going to be a point where it goes too far and becomes dangerous to surrounding boaters.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       01-30-2009, 6:24 PM Reply   
If you live on or have access to a smaller private lake, and depending on your stateís boating laws, you may be stuck with rules that the local property ownerís group says is right and proper. However, I donít see that happening in Ohio. In Ohio you canít establish further restrictions above and beyond the state boating laws unless the lake is owned and managed by a political subdivision. In Columbus, Ohio the city built two reservoirs. The city built them and still owns or controls them. As an Ohio political subdivision they have petitioned and have been granted authority to establish further boating restrictions. They include maximum boat length and a maximum speed limit. Other local private lakes have attempted to enact similar restrictions. These restrictions have been challenged in a court of law and they have been found to be illegal.

There are some really big boats on the great lakes and major rivers. Some people bring ridiculous cigarette boats and 32 foot cabin boats on to smaller public Ohio lakes. IMO these boats are in the wrong place, theyíre just too big for small lakes. As much as Iíd like to see these boats go someplace else, this is America, people have rights. My boat fully weighted weighs much less than these jumbos. I donít see how you can constrain a wake boat without constraining these boats. If the state restricts boating on one body of water they pretty much have to do it for all bodies of water.

That said I take in to account the boats that are around me. If Iím stopped because my surfer fell I often wait for smaller boats to pass or when I pull up a surfer I head the other way. I do that as much for safety as a sign of respect. On occasion when overtaking a small boat I have dropped a surfer rather than risk a possible upset.

Most of us have heard that you are responsible for the damage that your wake causes. However, few recall or have heard that you are also responsible for safely navigating your boat across the wakes of other boats. Taking a 5 hp, 6-foot, aluminum boat in the middle of a busy waterway is not a responsible action. When a wake boat passes the path of such a boat where do the responsibilities lie? As a wake boat operator I do my best to boat responsibly.

On my Enzo I just donít need that much weight to make a stellar wake. I want a longer pocket not a short steep pocket. Iím toying around with a unique trim tab concept but I want that for tweaking wake shape and to deal with a goofy side issue. I have enough wake as is.
Old    Ryan Bates (surfin247)      Join Date: Dec 2008       01-30-2009, 9:04 PM Reply   
Wardo, I understand your concern since you are in Ca. (Nanny state). Not quite as bad in Fl., but as Ed states wakeboard wakes have a greater impact on shoreline than wakesurfing. People see a big wake and don't take into account the physics behind them. My biggest concern is other boats that is why this time of year is so great to surf. No other boaters out. I still think proper hull design would help to eliminate any energy concerns, and also by not having to list the boat would help make it appear safer and defintiely less noticeable to onlookers.
Old    John White (stick)      Join Date: Dec 2007       01-30-2009, 9:32 PM Reply   
I don't need a bigger wake....just longer pockets. I am very happy with my wake size, I would just like to ride 20-25 feet back.
Old    Duffy Mahoney (duffymahoney)      Join Date: Sep 2008       01-30-2009, 10:03 PM Reply   
Just buy a 20 meter boat! Check it out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P80A1OD5TAU&feature=related
Old    wardovision (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       01-31-2009, 3:16 PM Reply   
I would be sooooooo bummed if I traveled all the way to Teahupoo and had to settle for that

edit: not that it doesn't look. Just not travel all the way to Tahiti fun

(Message edited by CAskimmer on January 31, 2009)
Old    WakeMikey (wakemikey)      Join Date: Mar 2008       02-15-2009, 3:46 PM Reply   
If anyone is listening, PLEASE make a true wakesurfing video with a few pros, couple diff boats and locations. Pick uptempo music and don't forget to show off the boats! Full length wakesurf movie - I will buy it!
Old    James Harold (jdjjamesz)      Join Date: Mar 2008       02-15-2009, 3:54 PM Reply   
ther is one go to mobgroup.tv look at the trailer wake up, the movie is insane.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       02-15-2009, 4:58 PM Reply   
OK so Iím looking for something bigger. More exposure and more growth. The 2009 National Wakesurfing Championship, a Grassroot NWL competition, will be aired on NBC Universal Sports Cable!

Upload
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How many more skilled ocean surfers would compete in wakesurfing if it drew the attention that coastal surfing gets? Would participation and skill level increase?

You could hold an international wakesurfing competition in nearly any major city. That could bring surfing to nearly every corner of the planet. So, how about the Olympics? Imagine wakesurfing in the Olympics. I donít think that weíre going to see wake surfing in the Olympics any time soon, maybe never.

Is that too dreamy of a future for wakesurfing? Is the global economic crisis and the rising demand for fossil fuel going to cut down the sport just as it tries to stand up.
Old    KEVIN (kko13)      Join Date: Jul 2006       02-15-2009, 5:55 PM Reply   
im knew to the whole wakesurfing thing and i dont mean to be negative but if chapparell(sp?)and other I/Os follow suite wakesurfing will be outlawed soon.i think we are only one freak/bad accident away.I just bought my first board this weekend and cant wait to get out and dial in the boat.I just hope "big brother" stays clear of the sport.
Old    Matt Etheridge (mhetheridge)      Join Date: Aug 2006       02-15-2009, 7:27 PM Reply   
Being that I live on the coast, I really want a boat that I can take offshore and weight it so that we can get a clean solid shoulder high wake. Something that's not going to swamp other boats by my wake. Something that's not going to destroy the shoreline. Something I can keep in the water. And something that surfers really want to ride. Wakesurfing is fun but it's not surfing. At least to me and all my surfing friends. We all love it. It's great flat day fun though.
Old    James Harold (jdjjamesz)      Join Date: Mar 2008       02-15-2009, 7:47 PM Reply   
Yeah I agree with you matt I live by the coast to in nor cal,It will never be like surfing but its training for surfing and when you take people out on the boat and wakesurf theres something about being on the boat and everyone having agood time,show I could see wakesurfing in the x games for sure.rollerblading was in the xgames before.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       02-15-2009, 8:21 PM Reply   
I don't know the X games seem to be sports that at their core don't require a lot of cash. A skate board, your little sisterís bicycle, and a couple of ramps. Or skate boarding someplace where the police chase you away.

OK so they have motocross and snowmobiling. I have no idea what it costs to hop up either for the X-games.

I did a Wiki on the X-games. They list wakeboarding, but I thought that wakeboarding had been removed from the X-games.

Wakesurfing takes $60,000 worth of equipment just to get started. All the ballast is extreme, but at $60K for basic equipment that doesnít sound like X-games to me. What do I know about the X-games.
Old    FALCO (vfalco)      Join Date: Mar 2005       02-15-2009, 8:28 PM Reply   
"So when someone says "I want the sport to grow" what are your reasons?
Am I missing something? Just curious..."

Progression, mostly.

I'm with you on the short lift lines and buttery water. Best things ever.

But can you imagine the stuff we would still be riding if nobody did these sports?
I remember my first snowboard back in '90. It did the job, but you couldn't pay me to ride that setup again.
I wouldn't have the awesome equipment I have now if there weren't millions of snowboarders paying for new stuff every season.

And imagine the boats we'd still be in if wake sports hadn't grown the way the have.
We would all be trying to make a surfable wave behind someone's old CC 2001 or ProStar 190.

Doesn't sound like that much fun.

It's kind of a double edged sword.
Would you rather share with new people and get new stuff that makes all we do more fun,
or ride alone on equipment that could be a lot better?

Just my .02

(Message edited by vfalco on February 15, 2009)
Old    James Harold (jdjjamesz)      Join Date: Mar 2008       02-15-2009, 9:33 PM Reply   
well show, thats when boat companies come in and set up a boat for the x games just like a wakesurf contest.it doesnt cost 60,000 to have a company put there boat out there and set it up you only need one boat,just like boardstock,yeah I think they still have wakeboarding in it,plus I dont think those ramps are cheap to set up,its just a dream anyways,they had surfing in the x games but they cut it of ,with wakesurfing you dont have to went for a swell or tides, winds all that great stuff you just drive the boat.
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       02-16-2009, 7:18 AM Reply   
its Ok Falco, wakesurfing is not so much attractive to watch for others non wakesurfers so I dont worry about anything
Old    mobster            02-16-2009, 8:05 AM Reply   
Add the Sleigh Winch to your wake surfing Quiver & you have some extreme wake surfing
Old    dtw. (notsobueno)      Join Date: Dec 2004       02-16-2009, 8:23 AM Reply   
Sleigh makes a winch? For sale? Where?
Old    mobster            02-16-2009, 10:08 AM Reply   
Contact us @ our web site & we can provide more info Upload
Upload
Upload
Old    KEVIN (kko13)      Join Date: Jul 2006       02-16-2009, 4:52 PM Reply   
60k to get into the sport. come on thats stiff! buy a nice used boat 25k couple of boards and a vest $1500 ballast 5k . not even close to 60k come on.
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       02-16-2009, 4:57 PM Reply   
Kevin you're absolutely right. However, what kind of boat would be at the X-games new or used? I think $60k might even be on the low side for new.
Old    wardovision (caskimmer)      Join Date: Apr 2006       02-16-2009, 6:35 PM Reply   
The cost of the sport has nothing to do with why wakesurfing won't become an X-Games sport. They eliminated wakeboarding because it required a separate venue that wasn't spectator friendly and cost too much to rig all the angles needed. (same with surfing) The end result was trimming down the sports to ones that could be nicely packaged within the Staples Center.
Old    Matt Etheridge (mhetheridge)      Join Date: Aug 2006       02-16-2009, 6:48 PM Reply   
Here in Florida, fishing is the standard. Most surfers here fish when it's flat. A lot of us still skate. I'll be 40 and we do an old guys army night frequently. But, I want to surf all the time. Really, that's all I care about as well as my friends. I bought my enzo just to surf. But if there was a boat that could put a wake out like James cyclone but only three to four feet bigger and a longer workable pocket where you could pump, do a real cut back and possibly recover, I'd be willing to pay a premium for it. Even in this economy. Hell, I would love for someone to design one just for me. Just by pictures alone, I think he (James) has the BEST wake out there. Every surfer I shown those pics too want to ride that. Especially those with Josh Mulcoy slotted in that little barrel. I've got access to an x-80 and we're going to play with the ballast this spring. I've also got access to a 35' Cabo inboard fishing boat. Wake is huge and powerful, but not clean at all. As far as where I'd like to see wakesurfing go. Who knows. Let it evolve into what it is going to evolve into. People are still going to wakesurf. Because it is superfun and not nearly as dangerous as wakeboarding. I did tear my MCL in my right knee when I was first getting into wakesurfing though. So Show, you want to help design a surfing hull for offshore use?
Old    James Harold (jdjjamesz)      Join Date: Mar 2008       02-16-2009, 7:17 PM Reply   
Ive seen footage behind a cabo matt, you can shape the wave up for sure I think you need to have evereyone sit on one side and bring some fat sacs,yeah watching josh get barreled back there is nuts,my one friend joe that goes on the boat every time I go out can get so gumby in the barrel its crazy,I think he s going to have a barrel shot in the next wakesurfmag.and my wife gets the best barrels of the day back there because all the weight is in the boat,yeah if that wave was even 1 or 2 feet bigger you could almost stand in the barrel that would be the best,id be living on my boat if it could do that.
Old    Chris Walker (redsupralaunch)      Join Date: Aug 2002       02-16-2009, 7:29 PM Reply   
This is a really good post.
Old    mobster            02-16-2009, 7:46 PM Reply   
I have a friend down here in so cal that has a patent for a tow able wave plow I've been bugging him to get it out there so we can see & test it . He says it throws a 4' barrel on both sides this would work with the bigger boats . The problem would the starting & stopping for fallen riders which could be picked up with a ski
Old    Matt Etheridge (mhetheridge)      Join Date: Aug 2006       02-16-2009, 8:12 PM Reply   
James, my buddies boat weighs around 25 thousand pounds already. We've got some footage from last February on youtube somewhere of him riding a longboard behind it. Maybe weshould sack that thing out on one side and see what happens. I will call him this week and see if I can get a trip up. Water temps here around 62 with day time highs up around 70.

J.L. I'd paddle back to the boat if the wave was good enough. No different than paddling back out other than duck diving..... Is the guy Tom Lochtefeld by chance? Does the towable plow look like this?

Upload

How much fun could you have behind that? I saw a video from waveloch a few years ago with that waveplow on a track. I think that's where I swiped that pic from.
Old    James Harold (jdjjamesz)      Join Date: Mar 2008       02-16-2009, 8:12 PM Reply   
j.l. lets get that plow going,that would be sic.
Old    James Harold (jdjjamesz)      Join Date: Mar 2008       02-16-2009, 8:17 PM Reply   
hey matt im coming to florida,at the end of march ,where do you live i would like to try that thing out if you go,I have gas money,im going to be at the typhoon lagoon for a couple of days,shooting video and photos.It would be sic to try that boat I think I saw your video on utube it looks like the wave has some power.
Old    James Harold (jdjjamesz)      Join Date: Mar 2008       02-16-2009, 8:22 PM Reply   
which video is yours on utube
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       02-17-2009, 5:47 AM Reply   
I was watching development of several Surfparks and most promising one at RonJons Florida is somehow postponed as they only finished testing pool. Does anybody knows more?

Yea I remember that crapy small gif video of testing that plow. Nice wave but tiny

(Message edited by hawaj on February 17, 2009)
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       02-17-2009, 6:46 AM Reply   
here we go check this out!

http://www.google.com/patents?id=Q3YjAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4

http://www.google.com/patents?id=x7YTAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&d q=US+Patent+6928670

(Message edited by hawaj on February 17, 2009)
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       02-17-2009, 6:55 AM Reply   
crazy stuff

http://www.google.com/patents?id=BYiDAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&d q=Surf+toy+action+figure+and+simulated+surfing+gam e
Old    mobster            02-17-2009, 7:43 AM Reply   
My friend is tied in with Tom
Old    dtw. (notsobueno)      Join Date: Dec 2004       02-17-2009, 8:25 AM Reply   
They all are cool looking. But that surf toy is BOSS!! Dangling that toy of the back of the boat would make the wave look like Teahupoo!!!!

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