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Old    Rod McInnis (rodmcinnis)      Join Date: Sep 2002       05-05-2003, 10:41 AM Reply   
I used to have a 2000 Air Nautique with Perfect Pass, and now I have a 2003 Team Edition Super Air Nautique.

The Perfect Pass worked GREAT on the Air Nautique. It is not nearly as well behaved on the Super Air and I was wondering if others had the same issues.

To start with, it isn't holding the speed as well as it did on the previous boat. I have been playing with the "k" factor, but so far I have only made it worse. The K started off at 60 and I have raised it to 70, but that made it worse if anything.

The most annoying thing about the new boat is how the Perfect Pass reacts in a turn. On the old boat, it would only suffer if the turn was so sharp that the Perfect Pass could not maintain the speed. On the new boat, it is as if the paddle wheel is getting really confused.

It doesn't take much of a turn to confuse it, and the sharper the turn, the more confused it gets. When turning to the right, the PP seems to lose speed indication, and it really powers up to compensate. The result is that when I straighten up again the boat is going way too fast. Just the opposite happens when turning left.

Any one else experience this?
Old    GD (greatdane)      Join Date: Feb 2001       05-05-2003, 10:48 AM Reply   
If the paddle wheel if off center, it will definitely sense a different speed when you turn. This is life. Its just like the wheels on your car - when you turn a corner the inside wheel rotates A LOT less than the outside wheel.

Regarding your speed holding problem, outside of turning, you either have a bad component, adjustment or paddlewheel position.

Was the install done by CC?
Old    Luke Tingley (cryptic22)      Join Date: Apr 2002       05-05-2003, 12:57 PM Reply   
I had that problem on mine. At first it would really have a hard time searching for the proper speed. It also wasnít very accurate +- .7-.9 mph. On turns it was really bad, it would speed way up and play crack the whip with the rider.

I bumped my KDW settings up to about 220. I also went and reset all the settings manually. I think mine had RPM based mode turned on. I think I turned mine to speed based and wakeboard only mode. Not sure which of these actually fixed the problem, but it works perfectly now. I run at about +-.1-.2 mph.

Give these a try, if they donít work for you Iíll try to get you my actual settings next time Iím out.


(Message edited by cryptic22 on May 05, 2003)
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       05-05-2003, 1:43 PM Reply   
i have the EXACT same issues, would love to hear the solution...

http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/63783.html
Old    Mike Novak (aquaholic)      Join Date: Feb 2001       05-06-2003, 5:10 AM Reply   
I've got similar issues as well. I bumped the KDW up to around 175 and NN to around 160. Still pretty much the same. It fluctuates around +/_ 1 mph or so. I did notice in the manual it said something about adding an extra return spring to your throttle because PP can accelerate but has to depend on the spring to bring the throttle back. Has anyone tried this?
Old    pbob            05-06-2003, 5:17 AM Reply   
Check your cables.. Make sure that they aren't catching the cowling on top of your engine. I have the PCM Excalibur and it just scrapes the cowling a little on the spring return side. I've had a few problems with mine and I'm not sure if that's what's causing it or not but it's a prime suspect for "Surging".
Old    sub_zero            05-06-2003, 7:43 AM Reply   
The location of your paddle wheel is critical. If it is not in clean water it will give bad readings. Also the paddle wheel must be aligned straight to the boat. If it is turned in the hull that will give poor performance. Like Mike said, return spring tension is also importand. PP customer support is really great. Ph # is (902) 468-2150.
Hope that helps.
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       05-06-2003, 10:36 AM Reply   
Pete- i think you nailed it. that makes complete sense, because it's almost always off speed to the high side. my cable may be rubbing on the underside of my hatch just a bit. i didn't think that would affect anything, but the more i think about the symptoms the more that makes sense.

as for the paddlewheel location, from what i can tell mine is always giving a very accurate actual speed reading, it just seems that PP isn't seeking the correct speed well enough.

FWIW, the paddlewheel installation instrux say specifically to angle it towards the keel if it isn't right on the centerline of the hull, it just doesn't say how much. go figure. :-) that makes sense too if you think about the direction the water is actually travelling along the hull (velocity vector for nerds) on a V-hull boat.

thanks for the feedback. i'll post my results when i get it figured out.
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       05-06-2003, 10:46 AM Reply   
and i've talked to PP about this. they recommended testing the system in RPM mode. Randy said if it won't hold RPM well either, it may need the extra spring. haven't gotten back to the lake yet to test, but same principle would apply to the cable rubbing as well.

in fact, the extra spring could be used to overcome some mild cable rubbing. just thinking out loud at this point...
Old    Shawn (csquared)      Join Date: Jan 2002       05-06-2003, 12:04 PM Reply   
Be sure to check the installation of the cable and its tension on the servo in addition to the amount of cable that is wrapped around the servo. If all of that isn't correct, it behaves as though it needs another spring for more tension.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that you do not need another spring for a 2003 Nautique. Another one may help with your problem, but it would be masking a different installation problem.

I don't think the paddle wheel is going to see a difference in speed in turns for the same reason that car tires spin at different speeds in a turn. The boat angles into the running surface for one and secondly, I have never seen dual speedos read differently in turns and they are usually mounted at each edge of the hull, much further from the keel line than a paddle wheel will be.
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       05-06-2003, 12:22 PM Reply   
"Be sure to check the installation of the cable and its tension on the servo in addition to the amount of cable that is wrapped around the servo."}

Shawn- are you talking about checking that the thumbwheel is snug, or something else here?
Old    Nautique_driver (nautique_driver)      Join Date: Mar 2003       05-06-2003, 9:27 PM Reply   
Wakejunky where are you? Chris could help you out. Call West Coast Correct Craft and ask for Mark or Brice. John can also help you though he is now parts manager and nnot in service anymore.
Old    MB Tom (tcaton)      Join Date: Sep 2002       05-06-2003, 9:58 PM Reply   
I had the same problem and was told by Perfect Pass to raise my NN to 200 and set the KDW to 80 after a little more fine tuning it holds speed to 2/10ths and no problems in the turns.
Old    sub_zero            05-07-2003, 7:30 AM Reply   
Hey Y'all, A few of us are looking into getting a PP. We are debating WB Pro or WB Cruise.

http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/65966.html?1052305958

I know that with the Pro, the KDW and NN factors can be changed and the WB Cruise is factory set and cannot be altered. If your problem is just the setting, does that mean that if you have the WB Cruise you would have to live with that problem? Some guys have the WB Cruise and love it. What do ya think? Thanx!
Old    gvmewake            05-07-2003, 9:29 PM Reply   
I ride on my friends 02 SANTE and he has the same problem you are all talking about. We found out that it is probably a vent that is a few feet directly in front of the paddlewheel. Non-team edition SAN's don't have this vent so its only a problem with this particular boat(although i'm not so sure about the '03).
Old    akman            05-08-2003, 9:21 AM Reply   
Well we were having the same problem with the motor searching for speeds and surging between
+/- 2MPH. We ran the KDW up to 180 and the NN down to 100, it was holding speeds within .2 on both sides and in the turns.

This was without a rider, we just wanted to try to get it dialed in. Once we get a rider and more weight we can "tweak" it a little more.

Thanks for all the info.....
Old    Paul (paulsmith)      Join Date: Mar 2002       05-09-2003, 4:58 PM Reply   
Gramps and I tested it out this morning with some riding and it did well with one exception. When I pull out heelside to set out for a toeside jump, it pulls it down off speed and PP takes awhile to recover. We tried tweaking the KDW and NN settings and couldn't quite get it.

When we put it in RPM mode it holds well so I'm pretty sure its the KDW and NN settings. Any suggestions to get us over the last hill? We were running 200 KDW and 100 NN. Anyone have a suggestion on how to tweak it a little so that we can't pull it off speed by cutting out hard?
Old    Blabelmooch (blabel)      Join Date: Jul 2001       05-09-2003, 5:13 PM Reply   
Maybe it's time to shed some Lbs Andre!
Old    Paul (paulsmith)      Join Date: Mar 2002       05-09-2003, 6:12 PM Reply   
While that may be true, it happened when Laura was riding as well, and it happened even when I mellowed out my cut away from the wake.
Old    MB Tom (tcaton)      Join Date: Sep 2002       05-11-2003, 8:55 AM Reply   
I was having the same problem too after installing Perfect Pass and was told by them not to raise the Kdw as it effects how fast the servo motor responds to changes in speed but to raise the NN as this will give more readings of the paddle wheel. They told me to try a KDW of 80 and a NN of 180 and it seams to have fixed the problem holds a speed of +/- of .2 mph even when a rider cuts hard.
Old    Alex Holden (nautiair)      Join Date: Sep 2002       05-11-2003, 10:42 AM Reply   
here's what I've found out. I have a 02 SANTE. If you have a center tank on your boat this may be the problem. PP specifies to mount the PW just in front of the rear ballast intakes. this was standard on all sans. they did not take into consideration that on the sante there is a center ballast tank. the cover for the intake is dome shaped and is throwing dirty water back towards the PW. on the starboard side of the boat there is nothing to impede the flow of water. This information comes from very very reliable sources. the boat at OWC was having the same problems and so was a top pro that rides for CC. PP and CC are working to fix this. I have heard that they are testing some flush mounted intake covers. they are working very hard to correct this problem. Gary @ PP told me to set the kdw to 80 and the nn to 180 and start there and then dial it in. just like tom said above.
Old    MB Tom (tcaton)      Join Date: Sep 2002       05-11-2003, 4:07 PM Reply   
From what I understand after talking with Gary at Perfect Pass most people think that they need to raise the KDW when it is really the NN that need adjustment. KDW make the servo react quicker and if its nervous allready thats what you dont want to do, if you raise the NN it lets the computer take more readings from the paddle wheel to hold the speed. this is what they told me and it works
Old    Shawn (csquared)      Join Date: Jan 2002       05-12-2003, 9:16 AM Reply   
trace,

When I had problems with mine, I thought it was a spring issue and went back to the dealer to have them add a spring to the throttle. Turned out to need an adjustment to the amount of cable that was on the servo (not just the thumb screw, but the amount of cable that was on there or how it was on there). Sorry I don't have more details, but it was the cause of significant hunting and a really poor ride.

After the adjustment, factory PP settings and 1400lbs or so, a 99 SAN holds within 0.5 mph. May try to bump up the NN and see if it gets a little better.
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       05-12-2003, 10:43 AM Reply   
thanks Shawn. there is a blurb in the manual about contacting PP if the servo cable is too long. maybe it was rubbing somewhere due to being too long? looks like the thing can actuate about 3/4 of the throttle stroke as is, so the travel s/b enough. still working on it, didn't get to fiddle with it too much this wknd.
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       05-19-2003, 7:26 PM Reply   
bump.

still working on it. anyone have any luck yet?
Old    str8jkt            05-20-2003, 6:57 PM Reply   
If your boat speeds up turning one way and slows down turning the other, read this and let me know what you think.

I felt the issue was the paddle wheel angle, let me explain. Say the water is being parted and flowing out from the center of the boat at an angle. But, your paddle wheel is facing straight forward. When turning left, the boat rotates slightly, making the paddle wheel have more missalignment with water flow, wheel slows down, boat speeds up. Then you turn right, boat rotates (pivots) and wheel is closer to the correct angle with the water flow, wheel speeds up, boat slows down. I dont think turbulance or "dirty water" will act on the wheel one way in a slight right turn and the opposite in a slight left turn. Yes, I tested my idea by loosening the wheel and angling it in towards the center. I had a great affect on the left/right turn speed variation but couldn't find a perfect spot under all conditions. I got the speed up pretty much gone but didn't loose the slow down.

Somebody make a paddle wheel that rotates in the hull and has a wakeboard fitting on it to align it with water flow and I think we will all be buying one from you.

Anybody else try this or have ANY other ideas. This is very dissapointing. I read a bunch of positive coments about PP and now I'm ready to take it out.
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       05-21-2003, 6:31 AM Reply   
what angle to the hull centerline did you find to be the best compromise?
Old    str8jkt            05-21-2003, 6:51 PM Reply   
Trace, I should measure it but "eyeballin it" I say it's about 10-12 degrees. Doesn't sound like much but it looks way more angled than most I've looked at. I still have it loose in the hull and played with it again tonight. I would love to try a wheel that could swivel to match water angle. I'm not buying the turbulance thing. I can have too much affect on this condition rotating the wheel, just hard to please it under all conditions/speeds. Again, I'm not playing with a surging like some posters, I'm after the speeds up with slight turn one way, slows down the other. Let me know if you have any luck.

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