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Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-29-2008, 5:41 AM Reply   
During glassing of bottom I got into serious problem how to glass sharp cornes on a tail. I allways got bubles on both sides of corner. I know its simply because glass dont want to bend around sharp. How to do it properly? Rather makes corners with very small radius so glass can bend easily and create sharp corner from resin via sanding or something else? The angle on my board os more than 90 degree. Its like 110.

Ok and what to do now - sand the bubles before glassing top layers with overlap or let them there? I was thinking of fill them up with resin but its problematic cause they are tiny and many.
Bubbles are goes just next to edge and are aprox 2-5 mm wide.

(Message edited by hawaj on August 29, 2008)
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-29-2008, 5:42 AM Reply   
Also I am not sure how to glass stepped rail?
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       08-29-2008, 8:03 AM Reply   
Hey Petr,

You have a number of things going on, so I'll try to address them in order. Give me a shout if I'm not clear on anything, okee dokee?

On the tight corners, cut a "V" in your fabric. In clothes-making there is a term for this, it's not a dart...it's called something. Anyway, what you'll do is cut that v so that when you lap the rails, there isn't an overlap. I am going to apologize now for my poor artistic rendering! :-)

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       08-29-2008, 8:16 AM Reply   
Wow that got really big! Was that clear enough? Anytime you're covering a tight corner, where you'd end up with extra fabric, you can cut that V so that it lays flat. One issue I had when I first started doing that was that my fabric would move. So I would cut one side and then when I would do the opposite rail, my first cut was off. If you can cut the fabric when it's wet that is perfect, but you have to put your scissors in acetone pretty quickly, OR you can use masking tape to hlod the fabric in place until you can get some of it laminated.

The bubbles are an issue with epoxy. To fix the current situation, a razor blade and sanding block is the best thing. Just go slow and clean them up. Don't forget that you'll have another layer of lap that will most likely hide everything. As a last resort if it's still not up to your standards, you can always paint it later. :-)

The bubbles can be caused by a number of things. One is a too hot environment, if you have a heat source around the epoxy, that can cause it. Try to lam and gloss on dropping temperature. Another issues is to make sure your laps are REALLY soaked. Pushing epoxy around to wet your laps can introduce bubbles. Lastly, bubbles in your epoxy will migrate to the surface and so you'll want to eliminate those as much as possible. I follow this procedure now:

1) Pour out and measure resin and hardener in two separate buckets and let sit in the sun, or I nuke them in the microwave and let sit until all bubbles are gone from the resin.

2) I pour the hardener down the side of the resin bucket, like I was pouring a beer and didn't want to develop a head. Be very careful not to introduce air here.

3) Mix the resin/hardener slowly but thoroughly to avoid introducing bubbles.

I always mix enough epoxy so that when I flip and lap the rails I have a bunch left over to wet them out really well.

For encouragement, once you have that first layer of fiberglass down, the second isn't as hard to do. :-)

Keep us posted and congrats on your work so far!
Old    lakeside5_10            08-29-2008, 8:48 AM Reply   
i also have problems laying down the bottom side as i like the hard edge , last board i had to throw it into the bag to get it right , and got epoxy all the way up my arms trying to get it into the bag , i like head on my beer's (non domestic)
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-29-2008, 11:48 AM Reply   
pictures say more, sorry I talked about corners and its actualy around edge.

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THE BOARD .................................................. ............................................THIS EDGE



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BUBBLES ON THE EDGE ON BOTH SIDES OF EDGE (BOTTOM AND SIDE)
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       08-29-2008, 12:39 PM Reply   
That's a sweet looking stick Petr! Also, I like your text overlay a TON better than mine! :-)

Sorry I didn't understand you, Petr.

On the Futures box lip, you'll grind that down when you're done, so most likely that won't be an issue, but I hate that look also. What I do, when the glass is wet, I run a razor around the bottom of that lip cutting through the glass and then the glass lays flush. Later when you grind/polish, it feathers out.

The bubble formation along the rail is a pain. If it's just cosmetic, I think that you can make them disappear by poking a small hole through the glass and then filling it with thinned resin. I'll bet that when you do the next lap, they'll disappear. If it's proud, I've cut and sanded, but you have to be careful not to introduce a wavy area. Lastly...paint 'em. A good paint job can cover a multitude of sins. :-)

For the future, it's been my experience, those bubbles are caused by not using enough resin. REALLY wet the fabric out well before starting the lap. Also on free laps, you need to watch that everything is flush and the loose strands are not going off into the blank, flip them back over the glass and then sand that down before doing the next lap.

Keep us posted!
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       08-29-2008, 12:50 PM Reply   
yes I did some nasty overlaps too but I cutted them wile resin was soft. I'm now cutting Rest with sharp knife and sanding out.
So now I know that I must cut glass out THANX.

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       08-29-2008, 3:57 PM Reply   
Ohhhhh yeah...you need to get acquainted with your shears. :-)
Old    Show (bigshow)      Join Date: Feb 2005       08-29-2008, 7:53 PM Reply   
You cut the glass at the boarder of the fin box?

Ya, I feel your pain, glassing is challenging for me. I have trouble at the nose and the tail. I cut the glass at the tail and trim the glass at the nose. I need to watch the glassing 101 DVD some time.

When I make a cut lap sometime the strands of glass stick up and they mess up deck layer of glass.
Old    Smed (smedman)      Join Date: Feb 2006       08-29-2008, 8:15 PM Reply   
Nice looking board Petr! Is that your #1? Excellent! Like the logo!

For the bubbles in the finboxes, I cut a little hole at the ends of the fb and push them out with my finger.

As for the rails, as Jeff said, extra resin is the trick. You want to wet the laps out really good. Nice thing with epoxy you just mix up a little more if it looks like you are short.

As for the pics with the pink highlighting... just sand those ridges down like you said. All part of it. You can also cut them out with an Exacto knife about 2-4hrs after the resin has set and they come off nicely. Then just sand down any remainder.

Looking forward to seeing the final product!
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       08-29-2008, 9:10 PM Reply   
Hey Matt, have you ever tried slicing the 'glass at the lip? I get 'glass on the box right up to the opening. Then I can lay tape around the lip and grind it flush without messing up a hotcoat.

Plus I dont have to grind that sort of of coving effect of the 'glass.

I use a crazy sharp razor to cut around the lip.

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Old    Smed (smedman)      Join Date: Feb 2006       08-30-2008, 8:48 PM Reply   
Nice idea Jeff. I'll check it out.

I'm usually doing a glosscoat in addition to the hotcoat, so I usually grind it down after the hotcoat, then tape again for the gloss.
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-01-2008, 2:40 PM Reply   
Thanx for great help! Now I know more.

Yes Smed its my very first #1 board. I am glad that you like it. I am nervous at every step, just didnt want to screw it because summer is ending so I'm in hurry too.

Today I did top - 2 layer of glass at once like in 101 glassing. Just another story: more glass need more resin. I was worry about proper soaking of both layer, hope its ok.

Found out that I need good and sharp shears which leaves clean cut so after soaking it dont make messy things. I put more resin with brush at sharp edge sections and its way better but not perfect yet.

Then I ended with cutting some excess resin from my hairs, but not big deal
Old    Smed (smedman)      Join Date: Feb 2006       09-01-2008, 7:37 PM Reply   
Ah yes, the resin in the hair trick! One of my favorite! .
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-01-2008, 7:51 PM Reply   
What are you guys talking about?

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Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-02-2008, 7:40 AM Reply   
damned what an advantage Jeff

Jeff which Future quad fins setup should I buy for my next project?
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-02-2008, 8:20 AM Reply   
Hey Petr,

I'm not a big fan of the traditional quad, they seemed to have too much hold for my tastes. I know that Smed is having good luck with his quads and Jerry Price has spent a few years working on them and is settling into the 4wfs.

Inland is using what I've heard referred to as an A Frame fin pod...where the inborad fins are forward of the rail fins. I've not ridden that configuration so...while it's interesting to me, I can't comment on that ride.

When we were doing testing, the only two trailers that I liked were the Scimitar Pivots (when combined with the Scim rail fins) and the 3.40 Quad rears. For the rail fins, I really only like the 438's VII Q1's and the Scim's.

Hopefully Matt S will chime in, he's been building some quads and I'm sure has some good insight.
Old    lakeside5_10            09-02-2008, 10:07 AM Reply   
i like the scim quad set as well ,if you set the outer fin boxes up past 12" then you will get a nice loose feel when it is set as a twin , then a more stable ride that will still cut loose when set as a quad.
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-02-2008, 1:34 PM Reply   
I just want to buy in France some more fins so I am searching what.

I was looking for something like Shapers choice quad from Vernor but you are right quad will probably hold to much. Is quad more speedy than thruster or is there any significant difference for wakesurfing?

James rides C5 Twinzer setup (dont know which sizes). How about that concept, what is adwantage with this?

And do you know what setup rides Chase now?

Sorry for too many questions from me Jeff but it looks I'm infected more and more
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-02-2008, 1:48 PM Reply   
Not a problem Petr, I enjoy the discussion. My understanding is that Chase is riding a quad now, with a slight change in the tail from prior years. This picture is of Johnny Stieg on Chase's board at the TWC. You can see it's a quad. I was at Jerry's house not too long ago and he had a few boards with the 4wfs installed.

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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-02-2008, 2:11 PM Reply   
I think the quad's are really finicky. I messed with them for a bit, and in my experience, it's just real easy to make a crappy board with them. :-) I'm sure that folks like Matt S, Jerry of SS and Jeff of IS have it figured out, but I sure couldn't. I gained some down-the-line speed, but sacrificed squirt and rail-to-rail responsiveness. They feel about as drivey as a thruster to me. I also think you have to be a powerful surfer to make them work and I'm NOT that. :-)

I stole the idea of the C-5 from Rusty P. The setup James is riding is the Rusty C-5, minus the trailer fin. We use the cupped C-5's, rather than the TW-1 canard and I think it's something like 2 3/8" deep...a pretty shallow fin.

In theory, the canard breaks the water up before it hits the main fins, reducing drag and improving attachment. From "seat-of-the-pants" testing, it offers more drive than a twin, just slightly less than a quad, but the tail is loose like a twin. So, for James, he likes to do alot of surface rotational tricks and this configuration still allows him that loose tail, but with increased drive, so he is able to launch an aerial, basically with only a single pump.

I have one of those Vernor Quads at home, I need to get it back to Dave before he kills me! :-)
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-02-2008, 3:09 PM Reply   
Awesome Jeff! Really appreciate your deep info help. Now I know where to start and what to watch when riding. Thanx
Old    Smed (smedman)      Join Date: Feb 2006       09-03-2008, 6:49 AM Reply   
Hey Petr,

Here's a few pics of my quad setup on my "Wombat" model

Original Prototype with 4WFS (I think the first wakesurfer to install them)
I found the board a bit stiff with this setup, regardless of messing with various adjustments. (forward-back, toe-in, and cant)
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Putting the bonzers in the tail really loosened it up, while still keeping the drive
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Since the 4WFS are quite pricey... I've come up with modified Futures Quad design loosely based on the setup I had with the 4WFS trailing bonzers
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Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-03-2008, 7:17 AM Reply   
I love that futures "MacGyver" setup! Are the trailers from a vector foil? It looks like a cup on the inside of the the far fin.
Old    Smed (smedman)      Join Date: Feb 2006       09-03-2008, 7:26 AM Reply   
How did you know I used to be a big fan of MacGyver? :-) Your "no glass, no resin" home depot board actually has me thinking MacGyver gives you a bit of inspiration now and again...

As to your question -- the rears are from symmetrically foiled standard 340 quad rears -- no vector cup, just on the fronts... must be the lighting...
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-03-2008, 7:35 AM Reply   
What is that old saying - anyone that shapes is part junkman/recycler. I've got the chewing gum and bailing wire running through my veins, too. :-)

The shape of the trailers is pretty vertical on the leading edge - must give you a "pivoty" feel? You know - just tell us :-) How does it ride Matt?
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-04-2008, 1:20 PM Reply   
Big thanx Smed for nice pictures! Very very interesting. Finish of your boards is nice.

I just did my first test ride of my freshly finished board and I am so stoked - it rides WOWOWOWOW!!!!!!!!! .

Its pretty wider than I am used to (its 20 1/8") and resposnes very quickly. Tri fin setup with small rearfin is suprisingly loose yet I feel nice drive in turns. I will try biger fins as I am pretty tall and sometimes ride powerfully.
And for sure I must try quad setup fin setup for now.

Board is very buyoant (2" thick) when pushed under water it fly up to the sky like rocket - happy that it didn't land on my head fins down. Next one will be aprox 1/4" thinner. Epoxy construction is very strong and light. Also my stringer wood is probably pretty stiff. I will try only 1 layer of glass on top istead of two.

Yea I am more than satisfied... and friends where stoked too just to see homemade board which looks like real surf . As far as I know it is probaly 2nd shaped surfboard in our Czech country. Hope there is and will be more of us


Yes to everybody: definitely build your own board its more than worth of it.

I must buy traction to get most from this stick.

Btw back to the basics - what is the main theory behind quad and how tail shape like bat tail works with it? All I know is that you can get more speed and drive than with tri fin. I guess than on wakesurfs rear fins are more up and to the side closer than on regular surfboards.

(Message edited by hawaj on September 04, 2008)
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-04-2008, 3:38 PM Reply   
Have you listened to this Surfline interview with William Riedel aka Stretch? DJJamesZ is riding some Stretch boards of late.

Anyway...page 5 of 18 in the interview, he says - all things being equal, there are only two tail shapes. A rounded pin and everything else. That bat's, moon's etc all ride the same and are "bling".

Stretch interview

Congratulations on finishing your board! Also, thanks for sharing the stoke! Pictures of the finished board, please?
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-04-2008, 4:13 PM Reply   
soon
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-04-2008, 4:16 PM Reply   
hehe Will is cool. Seen walls from his shaping bay? wow thats inspiration

(Message edited by hawaj on September 04, 2008)
Old    Jeff Walker (surfdad)      Join Date: Sep 2004       09-04-2008, 4:42 PM Reply   
Ya' gotta love inspirational art. :-)

Stretch has a few boards at Surftech the F4 shows a pretty good picture of the his quad fin pod.

I love the look of the rohacell on the TL2 construction.

Stretch's wakesurf page...lots of shapers are offering boards for behind the boat now.
Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-04-2008, 6:11 PM Reply   
pics

laser ink dont like resin, but xero paper soaked well
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bubbles in hotcoat
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waxed
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Old    Petr (hawaj)      Join Date: Aug 2005       09-04-2008, 6:38 PM Reply   
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that's it

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