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Old    SupraSteve (suprasteve)      Join Date: Nov 2004       03-19-2008, 10:13 AM Reply   
Is this possible? I'm looking at installing a 3rd amp and want to make sure i have enuff battery power to do so. Problem is, i dont want to have to do alot of rewiring of the existing 2 batteries and perko switch i have.

If this is possible, can you give me an idea of how the wiring connections should be?
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       03-19-2008, 10:16 AM Reply   
so you have a starting bank and an accessory bank, separated by the switch. just hook Batt 3 up to the accessory side of the switch. Pos to Pos, neg to neg. Shouldn't have to wire anything besides the two batts together.
Old    Chris Hopf (chrishopf)      Join Date: Sep 2007       03-19-2008, 10:18 AM Reply   
COuldnt you run two of the battery parrallel and have the third by itself..??
Old    SupraSteve (suprasteve)      Join Date: Nov 2004       03-19-2008, 11:41 AM Reply   
i read in another thread on here, that using kinetic batteries can lessen the life of your normal battery. Would anyone deem it okay to add a kinetic as the 3rd battery vs. your normal deep cycle marine battery?
Old    Byron (bkoz)      Join Date: Dec 2005       03-19-2008, 12:07 PM Reply   
If your gonna use a switch to separate the batteries and never run/charge them at the same time it shouldnt matter. If you gonna wire them together then you need them to be the same type of battery.
Old    MicahJ (micah)      Join Date: Mar 2008       03-19-2008, 12:19 PM Reply   
I have been working on the same issue. A few people off the tigeowners forum have helped me out. Here is a diagram of what I am doing. I am running a third battery just for the stereo and leaving the two marine batteries on the perko switch for starting the boat. The third battery I am running is a Kinetik 2000. I will not have this hooked up for a couple of weeks but this diagram shows how I am wiring everythingUpload
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       03-19-2008, 12:40 PM Reply   
i haven't bought batteries in a few years, so I'm not sure what battery type a kinetic is. IIRC its a typical lead/acid battery. you should have no problems mixing the kinetic and deep cycle marine batts.

The issue is when you have two different battery types. i.e. AGM or wet cell and lead acid. your alternator "sees" a different charge rate for each battery. screws up the flux capacitor.
Old    MicahJ (micah)      Join Date: Mar 2008       03-19-2008, 1:12 PM Reply   
I believe that is what the Isolator/Combiner is for. It prevents that from happening. The two batteries I have for starting the boat are a different kind (lead acid) than the Kinetik (AGM) I am using to power the stereo.
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       03-19-2008, 1:26 PM Reply   
when you set the switch to C, is alternator will be charging all 3? Then you have 2 of one, 1 of another and thats where you have a problem.

unless, it charges 1 and 2, then "C" separately. then your coil wouldn't get power...

my system is similar, except that I don't charge the kinetik (or golf cart batts, in my case). if this prevents the problem, then we may have a solution. BTW i run two optimas and two golf cart batts.

(Message edited by denverd1 on March 19, 2008)
Old    MicahJ (micah)      Join Date: Mar 2008       03-19-2008, 1:38 PM Reply   
I was told I could use this product to prevent any damage from happening during charging. I am placing this item located where the Isolator/Combiner is located on my diagram.
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       03-19-2008, 1:58 PM Reply   
hmmm.. pretty cool device.

Charge Management
In multiple battery bank systems, Charge Management Devices (CMD's) automate charging. These devices provide a means for combining two battery banks when a charge source is present, while keeping the battery banks isolated from each other when no charge source is present. This assures that even if one battery bank is depleted, there will always be a charged battery bank available for engine starting. Some devices also provide a manual means of connecting both battery banks together for additional power while starting engines. There are many types of CDM's that fulfill this role. The two main categories are battery isolators, and Automatic Charge Relays (ACR's).

Battery Isolators

Battery Isolators are a common method of distributing charging current to multiple battery banks while assuring that the batteries remain electrically isolated during discharge. These devices are electrical "one-way check valves" that allow current flow to, but not from, the battery. Their disadvantage is that the diodes used in these devices cause a voltage drop that consumes charging energy, creates heat, and causes batteries to be undercharged. Alternators with external voltage sensing can correct for the undercharging problem, but voltage drop and the heat generated remain a problem. Battery isolators generally cannot be used with outboard motors that share a common wire for charging and starting.

Automatic Charge Relays

Automatic Charge Relays (ACR's) are becoming a popular method for achieving the same goal as isolators, but they work on a different principle. Instead of using diodes to block current from flowing in both directions, ACR's use mechanical relays controlled by a circuit that senses when a charging source is being applied to either battery. When a charge is being applied, the ACR closes after a short time delay and connects the two batteries. When the circuit senses that the charge is no longer present, the ACR opens after a short time delay. This delay assures that the ACR does not open during temporary voltage sags due to load start-ups. ACR’s can be used with outboard motors and inboard/outboard (I/O) installations.

**What you linked does provide some charge management features. This is the part where i have no idea if it helps or not. It sounds like the iso/com you linked will do a great job of making sure you have power somewhere. Where i think it comes up short is regulating the charge voltage to each battery. At the end of the day, I still think we'd be combining all banks to charge. Which would lead us to a problem long-term.

where's the audiophiles...
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-19-2008, 2:07 PM Reply   

You should check out the diagrams on the bluesea website, I don't think that isolator will work with the way you want to hook it up. I don't see why you wouldn't run the two starting batteries together, and run the kinetic on the other side of the perko. I was on the phone with blue sea yesterday talking about this very issue. I would encourage you to call them and talk the their technical support department yourself.
Old    MicahJ (micah)      Join Date: Mar 2008       03-19-2008, 2:14 PM Reply   
I could definitely run the two starting batteries on one side of the perko and the Kinetik on the other side. I will have to look into that. Thanks
Old    TigeMike (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       03-19-2008, 3:31 PM Reply   
Here was the thread I started last week about mixing these batteries. Kinetik says no issues, but I was hoping to hear the thoughts of someone actually running it.

Here is what Kinetik says about it:

From the Kinetik FAQ's

"Mixing Different Battery Technologies
Kinetik Power Cells are compatible with most standard 12 volt charging systems and battery technologies. We do however advise using Kinetik Power Cells exclusively throughout the vehicle for maximum voltage, performance and longevity of aftermarket electronics as well as the Power cells. This will minimize self discharging of the power storage devices in the vehicle while not in use also. Kinetik Power Cells have a very low self discharge rate much lower than that of a standard ‘wet cell’ car battery. When different types of power storage devices (batteries or Power Cells) are used in parallel in an electrical system, current will have a tendency to flow between storage devices unnecessarily resulting in heat build up and loss of power where it is needed most. When Kinetik Power Cells are used throughout the install, current will flow directly from the Power Cells to the load in a balanced manner minimizing ‘fighting’ between unlike storage devices.

How do I charge and test my Kinetik Power Cells?
Kinetik Power Cells can be charged in a properly functioning vehicle charging system or with any high quality 12 volt battery charger. For best results and maximum power output and lifecycle for outboard charging, use a Kinetik power supply or maintainer to charge and maintain your Power Cell. If you are charging with an automotive type charger always use chargers that are “voltage regulated, two stage, Automatic or microprocessor controlled”. Do not use chargers that only have amp settings such as 2, 5 or 10 amp settings that do not regulate voltage. These chargers increase in voltage as the battery or Power Cell charges leading to an over voltage situation that will ruin the cell. This is true for any 12 volt battery or Power Cell. The proper charging range for Kinetik Power Cells is between 13.5 and 14.4 volts. Any quality battery charger will stay in this range. To “bulk” charge or quick charge your Power Cell for one to three hours use voltages between 14 and 14.4 volts. To saturate (fully charge) or maintain your Power Cell for extended periods of times up to months at a time, use a float voltage between 13.5 and 13.8 volts. Kinetik power supplies and maintainers automatically switch from bulk to float charge as needed during the charging process to optimize the performance, lifecycle and charging time of your Power Cell."

What we wanted to do here was be able to charge all 3 batteries off the alt, but allow for the isolation of the Kinetic from the other 2, and allow one of those to act as the primary starting battery, and leave the other as a backup.

The "C", on the Perko is the common terminal, not the "BOTH" position of the switch. With this config, the alt will always have a battery to charge regardless of switch position.

Feedback welcome, thanks.
Old    SupraSteve (suprasteve)      Join Date: Nov 2004       03-19-2008, 3:53 PM Reply   
what is the approximate full to low/empty time frame it takes for the kinetic battery to discharge if in a cove partying w/ the music blarring? I'm sure the size(model) of the kinetic is a factor.
Old    TigeMike (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       03-19-2008, 4:25 PM Reply   
what is the approximate full to low/empty time frame it takes for the kinetic battery to discharge if in a cove partying w/ the music blarring? I'm sure the size(model) of the kinetic is a factor.

Depends on the current (amp) draw of the stereo system. Most figure it at 3/4 volume avg. Then calculate that with the battery's Ahr's (amp hours) and you will come up with how long it will play.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-19-2008, 7:56 PM Reply   

From what Bluesea was telling me on the phone you just hook up your house battery on #1 and the emergency starting battery on #2 (or the other way around if that's what you want). Then you run the blue sea isolator in between the to battery banks outside the perko. So run house battery to side a, then starting batteries on side B. This will charge your starting batteries if the charge dips below the preset level. It will not backfeed a charge from the house battery (kinetic) to the starting batteries. It's dual sensing. If your batteries go dead for some reason you just flip your perko switch to the #2 setting and you have your emergency starting batteries on tap. I'm setting mine up this same way. Hopefully I understood them correctly.

If you talk to them, or if anyone else has more insight on this let me know.

(Message edited by 05mobiuslsv on March 19, 2008)
Old    TigeMike (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       03-19-2008, 8:50 PM Reply   
Nu Bu,

I think they will achieve the same thing electrically, but are just configured differently.

Post up a visual aid for us, I'd like to see how they recommend.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-20-2008, 12:15 AM Reply   
It would take me forever to draw something up, so just imagine how Micahj's sketch is. Take the two reserve batteries an combine them on #2. Then take a positive from battery #1 and run it to side A of the bluesea, then take a positive from battery #2 and run it to side B of the blue sea. The bluesea isolator never gets connected to the perko. This way you can still combine them if you want to run that way, or you can just run on position #1 all the time (which is what I plan on doing) and switch to #2 only in a starting emergency. The bluesea shouldn't be run off the common on the Perko according to bluesea. Hope this is clearer.

Bluesea sells an add a battery kit with this isolator and basically a 2 position switch. So it would be like a perko with a #1 and ALL mode only. They were trying to sell me hard on this, but I finally got them on track with my specific setup with the perko.
Old    TigeMike (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       03-20-2008, 8:01 AM Reply   
I think I got it, I'll sketch something out and see what it looks like. What I'm picturing in my head will have the primary and secondary starting batteries in parallel and would not allow for one to be isolated for reserve starting. We'll see what I can come up with.
Old    Nu Bu (05mobiuslsv)      Join Date: Apr 2006       03-20-2008, 8:15 AM Reply   
Let me clear something up before you start the sketch. House batter (stereo, etc..) on #1 on Perko, reserve battery on #2. Then take a positive from the #1 battery bank (outside the perko) and run it to side A of the bluesea isolator. Then run a positive lead from the #2 battery to side B of the blue sea isolator. Nothing but the alternator hooked up to the Common on the Perko.
Old    Nacho (denverd1)      Join Date: May 2004       03-20-2008, 8:39 AM Reply   
that makes more sense. sounds like your alternator would still geek out when you switched it.

i'm really surprised there isn't some way to regulate voltage between battery types.
Old    SupraSteve (suprasteve)      Join Date: Nov 2004       03-20-2008, 2:03 PM Reply   
so i stopped by a local car audio shop today to inquire about the kinetik powercell. I asked him that can you do any damage to your battery, powercell or even the alternator by running a battery and a powercell on one side of the perko (lets say switch setting 1) and then on switch setting #2 just the battery. Switch 1 side would be for when your coving/partying. He said that it shouldn't cause an issue.

thoughts??? blast away....


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