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Old    Heath Bradley (heath)      Join Date: Feb 2008       03-17-2008, 6:24 AM Reply   
When looking at all the choices when buying a towboat, it can get confusing. The best way is to boil things down to the basics with the following formula.

Price x Quality = Value

Now this formula sometimes holds true and other times does not when one factor does not fall in line with the other. The idea being that the boat that does well on both price and quality should be rated high on value but one that skews in either direction then their value should fall.

Don't get caught on options because that would have an effect on price and in the long run probably have a direct corrilation on value. Keep things simple.

If you had to rank towboats on the above formuala how would your list look?
Old    TigeMike (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       03-17-2008, 7:09 AM Reply   
This has the makings to be a very volatile thread. Can't wait to see it play out.

I will go as far to say that I used this logic when I purchased our new boat 2 years ago. Its was not the most expensive, and not the least. I'm very pleased with the quality, so yes I would say the boat I chose has value. IMHO, I, like most others, lack the ownership experience, in a short period of time, of multiple brands, needed to properly "rate" these boats. Any such list would be based on either our emotions and brand loyalty, what we have read on sites like this, or from other consumer publications, and not from our own ownership experience.
Old    antifan (mars)      Join Date: Aug 2005       03-17-2008, 7:25 AM Reply   
Tough thread idea...
My misgiving is that your formula contains an undefined term. Price is price, no quibble there - I would submit you use average retail not the great deal someone got form uncle joey who is a dealer. Quality - therein lies the rub - what is quality, how would you define it in concrete terms. It is common perception, bouyed by countless advertising dollars that the expensive boats offer higher "quality". Is it an MTBF (mean time between failure)? is it the number "faults"? or is it how a person feels about their boat after they bought it? You will find that most people subconsciously understand "quality" as the latter, this is what JD power is *really* measuring with their surveys. As you can see it is a subjective thing, based on perceptions but reflected in very real terms such as in resale values. This is why advertising is so important and why a manufacturer who puts efforts into image and advertising is not necessarily a bad thing... food for thought.
Old    KEVIN (kko13)      Join Date: Jul 2006       03-17-2008, 6:22 PM Reply   
WOW CAN OF WORMS BUDDY CAN OF WORMS. I will state what i see on my experience with inboards and fixing all brands over the last 10+ yrs. like i said i fix them all wich means they all break and need repair. and with out getting to brand specific on wich brand i like the least ill just say the boat i think fits your PxQ=V the boat that stands out to me is TIGE. wich is why i own one. i will just use MC as an example here so noeone get their pannies in a bunch. MC makes a fine boat but is it worth 10-15k more no friggin way sure resale will be higher 5yrs down the road but you paid 15k more at the start so its should sell for more. but % wise a tige will hold it value as well as a MC. again i dont bash other brands but when it comes down to it i felt tige was the best bang for the buck and again thats why i bought one.
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-17-2008, 7:41 PM Reply   
PxQ=V is so rediculous for many reasons, some of them expressed in the above statements.

if you were to take 21-22 v-drive wakeboat with standard options... the x-star will win everytime because they make a great "quality" boat and the owners have only great things to say about them. PLUS, it is by far the most expensive 22v wakeboat.

I paid 20k for my 22v and so i would have to think that the "quality" of my boat is ATLEAST 4.2 times greater than the mastercraft x-star so that i could force a tie.

"The best way to boil things down..." is to..

1. set your budget.
2. decide what your needs are and select boats that fit those needs.
3. list options you "have to have" and those that you don't.
4. drive, ride, drive, ride, drive and ride...
5. drive and ride and then drive some more.

word
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       03-18-2008, 8:40 AM Reply   
The problem is the formula, not the idea. It should be:
PRICE X VALUE = PURCHASE RANKING
Where VALUE is meeting your needs and wants.

So John, above, bought a $20k purchase that met most of his needs well enough and didn't think spending 4.2 times the money would meet enough more (or would have some additional negatives) to put the x-star above the 22v.
Between similar priced boats I'd be willing to bet he made the decision based on the 22v meeting a diverse group of needs best.

I use Price:Value all the time in making decisions for major purchases. Now, I'm lucky enough that the financing of the purchase is not a critical issue. However, it would apply even if you had a limited budget.
Everybody here has seen threads where a choice is being looked at between a newer 'lesser' brand and an older 'premium' brand for the same dollars. Features, condition, and use are what make the decision.
When I bought my boat it was a better 'value' for me because it had the features, driving abilities, and design I wanted. It was my first choice over the other boats I looked at regardless of the price. Then I decided if it I felt good enough about buying it at the price I could. Well it was cheaper than my second or third choices so that was easy. A different individual would have put higher value on other things than me and my have picked a different boat.

Quality, or prestige, are just factors into the value decision.
Old    AtTheLake (bmartin)      Join Date: Jan 2007       03-18-2008, 10:41 AM Reply   
Assuming you had a good metric for quality.....lots of quibling here, but the formula should be:

Value = Quality / Price

If you hold Q constant, V goes up as P goes down and vice versa.
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       03-18-2008, 12:34 PM Reply   
That is much better formula

Quality / Price = Value
Old    Heath Bradley (heath)      Join Date: Feb 2008       03-18-2008, 1:41 PM Reply   
Quality / Price = Value

This is not a good measure since it put's all of the oweness on how good your negotiating skills are. Since Quality is constant the only other factor that will influence value is price. We have all probably paid different amounts for the same boat.

In addition, quality can be perceived and that is going to vary by each person.

There has to be a way to even the playing field down to have an apples to apples accross all boat brands but some assumptions have to be made regarding quality and price.

For example:

Tige
Quality-Mid Level
Price-Lower Level
Value-Upper mid to high

Mastercraft
Quality-Mid Level
Price-High Level
Value-Low level

In this example I think the Tige wins over the mastercraft because there is not enough quality gap to create additional value.

Let's be honest, there is not as much quality gap between brands as there once was but the price gap continues to increase. This creates even more of a reason to try and rank boats on this value equation.

If this was the rational, can't all boats then be classified on a scale.
Old    TigeMike (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       03-18-2008, 1:55 PM Reply   
Heath, I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. Your saying that if 2 products have the same perceived quality, then the more expensive one is a better value???

Example: Burger King whopper -
quality = mid level
price = low
Value = mid

Hi dollar steakhouse burger
quality = mid level
price = high
Value = high

If this is true, then this goes against the very basis of economics 101.

High quality with a low price should be a measure of value, not how hi the price is.
Old    AtTheLake (bmartin)      Join Date: Jan 2007       03-18-2008, 1:58 PM Reply   
Heath, I hope you pass a basic algebra class sometime in the future. Both P and Q are VARIABLES which may or may not be held constant.

Your equation is ridiculous. Using your equation, all a boat manufacture has to do to increase 'Value' is to increase Price.

Using the example you provided and your equation (V=P*Q), then the Mastercraft would be a higher value than Tige because for MC Value= MedQuality*HighPrice which would be > than TigeValue = MedQuality*LowPrice. Do the math!

As an aside, the best value is probably buying just about anything gently used.
Old    Heath Bradley (heath)      Join Date: Feb 2008       03-18-2008, 4:11 PM Reply   
Let me clarify: I should have not posted my original formual as price x quality = Value.

Quality and Price cannot be multiplied, divided or any algebraic calculation. It is a relationship where each pulls on each other.

A better equation might have been:

Price (relative to market) x Quality (perceived by buyer)= Value (with one's own mind)

If we took each factor and clasified each boat brand within the three variable we might have something like below.

Quality:
Correct Craft
Mastercraft
Centurion
Supra
Malibu
Tige
Moomba

Price:
Mastercraft
Centurion
Correct Craft
Malibu
Tige
Supra
Moomba


Now if we all agreed on the above which I know we wont, (assume we did) then value would come in something like this:

Value
Correct Craft
Surpa
Malibu
Centurion
Tige
Mastercraft
Moomba

That being said, this assumption can only be altered by one variable and that is price. If we pay to much for the boat than we should (and sometimes we do) then we lose value. If we get a great deal and pay less than we should we gain value depending on the boat.

Can't wait to see reponses on this one.
Old    Erik (kinger)      Join Date: Jun 2007       03-18-2008, 4:14 PM Reply   
Sounds right to me CC 100% the best
Old    K.B.C.            03-18-2008, 4:38 PM Reply   
ummm Centurion is not the second highest priced boat mfg.
Old    TigeMike (chpthril)      Join Date: Oct 2007       03-18-2008, 4:42 PM Reply   
^^^ Dont worry Scott, so far, nothing is holding water
Old    Chris (rio_sanger)      Join Date: Apr 2007       03-18-2008, 4:53 PM Reply   
Looks like Sanger is "off the chart"!
Old    Heath Bradley (heath)      Join Date: Feb 2008       03-18-2008, 5:16 PM Reply   
Why is this so hard for everyone to grasp. Is it being driven by the fact that when dealing with our beloved boats we do not think logically but more emotional. I of course own one of these boats in this equation but at no point have I made reference to the brand or my feeling. I have tried to be totally objective to see about anwering this question.

Obviously, this is a question that cannot be answered. I think when the day is done we all feel we have gotten the best value for our money.
Old    antifan (mars)      Join Date: Aug 2005       03-18-2008, 6:34 PM Reply   
uhhhh, last time I checked... ski boats (unless you are a pro) are pretty much toys. A hobby to put it kindly.
Devil's advocate... when one is dealing with a frivolity, a luxury, reason takes a back seat and emotion rules the day. Discussion of value becomes secondary if not moot. Lets really start a tempest in a teacup and substitute "worth" for "value" in this debate and things will get interesting indeed.
BTW: Without checking profiles I'm guessing ol heath is pulled by a CC...?;-)
Old    cosmocat (treycleaton)      Join Date: Mar 2005       03-18-2008, 6:43 PM Reply   
Quality/Price = value could be reasonable, if quality was based on selecting and rating key characteristics (materials, workmanship, etc)on a scale. So quality would be a variable on a scale of which some apples to apples comparison could be made (this would only work if value = some agreed upon, objective variable)
Old    Joe B (sailing216)      Join Date: Oct 2007       03-18-2008, 7:22 PM Reply   
I bought a Centurion on an opinionated view of best value.

Moomba came across as the best value, IMO
Old    Heath Bradley (heath)      Join Date: Feb 2008       03-18-2008, 7:45 PM Reply   
Antifan

Your guess would actually be wrong. I own a Supra.
Old    Josh B (joshugan)      Join Date: Apr 2005       03-18-2008, 8:04 PM Reply   
I have literally hundreds of great memories from my 88 Ski Nautique. There are lots of other boats I have great memories from too. Here's the equation:

Me* + friends + girls* + warm sunny day + (any) boat = (high) value

* = necessary parts of the equation
Old    Gunner (frr)      Join Date: Oct 2007       03-18-2008, 9:10 PM Reply   
My vote is with Tige, I rent them out, cant tell you how many folks have rented from me because their mc or bu broke down. They act surprised and comment on how they like the tige just as much as there x-30!
Old    Caleb Rountree (dlwsrider)      Join Date: Apr 2007       03-18-2008, 10:19 PM Reply   
"Why is this so hard for everyone to grasp"


If you will take a look at the thread, you will notice that you are the only one who is having trouble grasping logic.
Old    KEVIN (kko13)      Join Date: Jul 2006       03-19-2008, 9:49 PM Reply   
CC at top of value thats the funniest f***ing thing ive ever read thanks for the laugh i needed it today!!!!!!!!!!
Old    08 Malibu VLX Silva (ksilva)      Join Date: Mar 2008       03-20-2008, 12:17 AM Reply   
Do people not like Sangers?
Old    Tyler McCurdy (tyboarder03)      Join Date: Nov 2003       03-20-2008, 12:24 AM Reply   
People love Sangers... Just not Heath
Old    Michael O (2007_x2)      Join Date: May 2007       03-20-2008, 12:25 AM Reply   
Sanger is a small company that are mainly a west coast company
Old    08 Malibu VLX Silva (ksilva)      Join Date: Mar 2008       03-20-2008, 12:28 AM Reply   
awwwww.... I get it...
Old    Machew (mbrown)      Join Date: May 2005       03-20-2008, 12:37 AM Reply   
The Rider's Formula

Wake Quality/Price = Value


Economics should only be considered when making the purchase by saying to oneself "will I lose my house if I fail to make the payments on this boat and end up not being able to sell it for anything but a greatly depreciated price"

If the answer is Yes than the value is zero.
Old    Bob L (bob_l)      Join Date: Jul 2006       03-20-2008, 8:49 AM Reply   
Unfortunately, a key component was left out of the equation:

Price
Quality
SERVICE

and as the old saying goes....."Choose two out of three"
Old    Mark (mvl)      Join Date: May 2004       03-20-2008, 2:55 PM Reply   
Holy frickin crap there are a bunch of d-bags trying to put some stupid type of mathematical formula on something that can never be quantified. It's fricken emotion and feelings gents. I know that there are engineers, statistians and chemists that could quite possibly enjoy wakeboarding, not because it's awesome and fun, but because of the various mathematical and engineering areas to explore and explain. Anyway, this is really dumb. maybe I'm just to simple to understand it...which I'm not.
Old    Machew (mbrown)      Join Date: May 2005       03-20-2008, 3:12 PM Reply   
Mark before you get so frustrated and start calling people out, take a deep breath and find another thread that is not so irritating to you and click on it.

Your blood pressure goes down, no one gets insulted and people are left to discuss anything they want IN PEACE!
Old    Ian Brown (wakereviews)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-20-2008, 3:21 PM Reply   
* boat not for sell = dad
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       03-20-2008, 3:44 PM Reply   
Heath, If you can convince my wife of your logic I will buy you the boat of your choice.

$180,000 x Porsche 911 GT3 = Great Value

$30,000 x Subaru Wagon = Bad Value
Old    Heath Bradley (heath)      Join Date: Feb 2008       03-20-2008, 6:30 PM Reply   
$100,000 x Porsche 911 = X value

$60,000 x Corvette = X value

The question is which one becomes the better value and can you quantify or qualify the difference in the value.

Is the difference in value due to the 911 being that much better of a quality vehicle since they both perform about the same. Or is the corvette that much better of a value due to the difference in the cost savings?
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-21-2008, 12:32 AM Reply   
machew is right.. lol. your boat ONLY has value (and when i say "value" i mean monetary value, NOT emotional/fun times/wakeboarding value...) IF and ONLY IF you can sell it and, after paying off the loan, put money in your pocket.

just for fun... lets say heath owes $32,475 on his Supra. If he decides to sell it and can only get $32,470.... then the VALUE of his Supra is $5

-end thread-
Old    Alan Slabaugh (alans)      Join Date: Aug 2005       03-21-2008, 7:31 AM Reply   
John, I see what you are getting at. Heath is using the word "Value" in a very twisted sense. I think a better word to use here is Depreciation. For example...

Price Paid - Current Market Value = Depreciation

From NADA:

2005 MB Sports B-52 V23

Paid - Current = Deprecitation
$60,000 - $50,120 = $9,880

2005 MC X Star
Paid - Current = Depreciation
$70,000 - $49,970 = $20,030

Assuming 100% Financed. The MB was a much better value because you are only in the hole 10k and not 20k.
Old    Johnny (johnny_defacto)      Join Date: Sep 2006       03-21-2008, 7:04 PM Reply   
Yes, in this example, MB is a much better value because it is... less of a liability than the x-star. the x-star is more of a liability than the MB.

so really, in your hypothetical situation, neither boat has value... both are liabilities.

- end thread, now? -
Old    lakeski (lakeski)      Join Date: Dec 2006       03-21-2008, 8:53 PM Reply   
If you buy a used boat that's just a few years old, the first owner takes the depreciation beating and you get the value. (Just as with autos.)

I bought a four year old boat. I've owned it for five years. According to NADA, the depreciation over five years I've had it is only $2,500. This is just $500/year. Not too bad, particularly when you look at how much the '05's have depreciated in the example above.

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