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Old    Ron T (wakemetoday)      Join Date: Mar 2006       02-15-2008, 11:36 PM Reply   
My 2003 Natique has a sticker that says. "Do not use alochol-blended fuels." In the near future, all fuels will have ethanol in them, so what do I do?
Old    Mark (mofreestyle)      Join Date: Jan 2006       02-16-2008, 8:44 AM Reply   
Marine fuels and premium fuels are not included last I heard. So if you buy from a marina or if you buy a higher octane it will not effect you.
Old    Montgomery (lovin_the_wake)      Join Date: Jul 2007       02-16-2008, 9:33 AM Reply   
Ronnie, What octane are you running ?
Old    Ron T (wakemetoday)      Join Date: Mar 2006       02-16-2008, 9:38 AM Reply   
I hope that you are right, but my nephew works for a refinery (as a chemist--he tests and monitors octane levels) and he says that all fuels (higher and lower octane) will eventually have ethanol in them in the near future--federal government regulations. Unfortunately, what the government regulators don't realize--or will not tell us--is the octane from the ethanol does not hold up as well under compression, so the gas will not combust as effectively, so your gas consumption will more than likely increase because of less power, so basically this is a wasted effort to control gas consumption as miles per gallon will actually decrease. Also, a mechanic told me that the fiberglass in the tanks may melt. On a previous thread, it stated only tanks on older boats have fiberglass, but I don't think that's true. I'm running 89.
Old    Leo Lasecki (malibuboarder75)      Join Date: Jan 2004       02-16-2008, 10:09 AM Reply   
Ronnie, that is because gas engines are not built to effectively run on ethanol. In brazil, they build the cars to run on ethanol, so the efficiency is much better.
Old    Ron T (wakemetoday)      Join Date: Mar 2006       02-16-2008, 10:25 AM Reply   
That's my point. If all fuel at some point has ethanol, will that render all high-performance, gasoline-designed engines useless? There's got to be an additive or some type of solution.
Old    Leo Lasecki (malibuboarder75)      Join Date: Jan 2004       02-16-2008, 10:30 AM Reply   
Well, for now, the mixture will be E10. I am not an expert on this subject, but I have read a lot on it. Until recently, they have been using a gasoline additive called MKTB (or something like that). And it was found in the water and to cause birth defects. Ethanol can be used in place of MKTB, but doesn't have the side effects. E10 probably won't hurt your engines performance, where as E85 will. If engines were designed to specifically run on E85, you probably wouldn't have the same efficiency loss.

As far as fiberglass containers melting in boats, I dont think boat gas tanks are fiberglass. I think they are some Polymer material. Not sure whether or not they will melt.
Old    Ron T (wakemetoday)      Join Date: Mar 2006       02-16-2008, 10:37 AM Reply   
Thanks, I know there's a solution somewhere. I just don't want to destroy my boat. What concerns me is I have a friend who owned several diesel trucks and when the low-sulfur diesel fuel law was put into effect, he had to change all of the seals in his fuel trucks' fuel systems--it was an expensive process. I was just wanting to make sure that I don't need to change any seals before the season starts.
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       02-16-2008, 10:36 PM Reply   
Ethanol is bad for boats for two reasons. First it is a cosolvent with water. That means in can absorb water from humid air and add that to the gas. It stays mixed and you just lose a little power and it would pick up water in your seperator or tank so that's not all bad.
Second it's damaging to many plastic parts. They harden and turn brittle or start to dissolve and gum up everything. With those parts replaced the engine can run just fine with Ethanol.
Any gas engine can run 5% with no issues. It gets tougher at 15%. You have to richen the mixture as you start to add more alcohol also.
Old    Ron T (wakemetoday)      Join Date: Mar 2006       02-17-2008, 7:59 AM Reply   
Richen the mixture how?
Old    Joe Umali (dakid)      Join Date: Feb 2001       02-17-2008, 9:20 AM Reply   
isn't ethanol talk all moot at this point since it was found that ethanol is actually worse for the environment? if that's true, then why would they continue or even switch to it in the future?

http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/sciencetech/homepage/article_1660665.php
Old    Derrick (dnannen)      Join Date: Nov 2007       02-17-2008, 10:53 AM Reply   
in order for us not to be dependent on foreign oils we would be able to produce it in the us
Old    Art (rallyart)      Join Date: Nov 2006       02-17-2008, 1:08 PM Reply   
The source of ethanol is the question on the environment, not whether it's better. Corn ethanol like is produced in the USA is not particularly different than gasoline for the environment when you net out all the factors. Ethanol from fast growing grasses and other plants could be very beneficial from the carbon count.
In order to not be dependent on foreign oil the USA needs to let the price go up high enough that it consumes less and the production from oil shale is more economic.
Old    Ron T (wakemetoday)      Join Date: Mar 2006       02-17-2008, 4:05 PM Reply   
Some excellent research, Joe!!! I'm like you but I'm afraid that now the federal government is involved, it's no longer a moot point. There's got to be a better solution.
Old    Darren (h2oaddiction)      Join Date: Aug 2007       02-17-2008, 5:29 PM Reply   
Good article Joe.

In Oregon it's a moot point thanks to or brilliant government. They passed a law last year requiring 10% ethanol blends state wide effective this year. Ooops, they were so busy trying to be green they forgot to exempt aviation and marine fuel. Not a good thing when private planes start having problems or commercial marine vessels have issues and people die. Now they are trying to correct the oversight. Here is a good link to a recent story regarding this issue as it pertains to the marine industry.

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/business/1202527511198220.xml&coll=7&thispage=1

Even if they exempt the marine use only fuels, the refiners aren't apt to produce it due to the low volume, or it will be more expensive.
Old    Leo Lasecki (malibuboarder75)      Join Date: Jan 2004       02-17-2008, 6:10 PM Reply   
Just to throw this out there

Henry Ford had initially planned on fueling his vehicles with ethanol and...

Diesel had planned on running his engines on vegetable oil.

"The use of vegetable oils for engine fuels may seem insignificant today. But such oils may become in the course of time as important as the petroleum and coal tar products of the present time"
Rudolf Diesel, 1912
Old    lakeski (lakeski)      Join Date: Dec 2006       02-17-2008, 6:24 PM Reply   
RFG (re-formulated gas = ethanol) is required by the EPA in these areas:

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/rfg/whereyoulive.htm

It's a shame that states like Oregon are going beyond the federal requirements making it even harder for boaters to avoid the problems that come with E-10.

Other states are playing the game, too. Minnesota's been flirting with an E-20 requirement to kick in in 2013.

So what can you do today? If you live in a non-RFG area, make sure you check the pump. Pumps must be labeled if they contain ethanol. Unfortunately, some gas stations are now using a weasel-like "This pump MAY contain 10% ethanol" sticker. These stickers are an annoying trend for boaters.

I live in a federal RFG area. I travel to nearby counties to buy non-RFG gas. Fortunately, the gas stations in nearby counties know that there are lots of boaters, snowmobilers, etc. who hate E-10 and they post "No Ethanol" on their signs, so you can find it more easily.
Old    lakeski (lakeski)      Join Date: Dec 2006       02-17-2008, 6:38 PM Reply   
The other thing you can do is to follow ethanol developments closely and write letters to your legislators if new ethanol mandates are being considered for your area.

You want to fight ethanol requirements if you like your boat.

It's up to you to have your voice heard, or you will find yourself in a tough spot like those in Oregon. Write a letter telling your legislators about the trouble with E-10 in marine applications and that we need protection from these troubles.

Here are a couple of news articles about the problems, so you can write a great letter to your legislators:

"Ethanol may Leave Boaters High and Dry," Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, Aug. 28 '06:
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=488180&format=print

"Tanks for Nothing," U.S. Boat Magazine, Sept. '06:
http://www.epicmarine.com/docs/Ethanol.pdf

There is a lot of coverage on ethanol in ski boats on the Toyota Marine web site:
http://www.epicmarine.com/forum4/index.php?topic=947.0
Old    Bill Montanye (bill)      Join Date: Feb 2001       02-18-2008, 8:17 AM Reply   
I do not feel like reading through all this stuff but i have an older boat 2000 supra with a basic 310 carbed indmar checy engine ..am i supposed to be using older gas or is the basic 87 at the pumps ok for now?? should i worry more or less using a carbed engine?

i also have a 2003 f250 with the 7.3 diesel in it and just put whatever diesel is available at the pump ,am i supposed to be avoiding the new treated diesel??
Old    Ron T (wakemetoday)      Join Date: Mar 2006       02-18-2008, 1:26 PM Reply   
Bill, your truck should be okay because the low-sulfur diesel has been around awhile. Unfortunately, according to the mechanics I know, ethanol eats rubber gaskets. Eventually, we will be forced to change out all fuel lines, rubber gaskets, and possibly fuel injectors, so get ready to fork out some bucks. Speaking of bucks, there is also talk on the hill about raising gas taxes another .40 cents (Democrats http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Page=/Politics/archive/200709/POL20070927c.html) over the next few years in order to rebuild our decaying infrastructure. Too bad no one wants to curb spending in order to pay for some of these necessary expenses instead of taxing us more.
Old    Bill Montanye (bill)      Join Date: Feb 2001       02-18-2008, 2:09 PM Reply   
Lucky for me i have a carb then since there are no injectors ....i was sorry i bought the carb ,buyers remorse since 2000 but maybe since i have kept it this long and the new gas may hurt injectors and efi engines ,i am glad i have a carb now..
Old    Ron T (wakemetoday)      Join Date: Mar 2006       02-18-2008, 2:16 PM Reply   
Good point,

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