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Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-18-2003, 2:32 PM Reply   
I used a heat gun to remove the water intake to my engine. The water intake is a scoop strainer type. Some people call them scuppers. Anyway, I used a heat gun and the hose twisted right off very easily. I then put a banjo T on it and used a pvc irrigation shutoff ball valve just for safety. I used rector seal on all the fittings (all the way to the sac) to assure no leaks.



I then ran two 10 gauge cables down the side wall behind the apholstery. I got a DPDT 3 position switch. I wired the top positive and the bottom negative together and ran it to one line and vice versa to the other. I doubled up on the hose where it might rub on my engine mount.

I then ran the hose over to the storage area to the left of my engine to the pump.



I need to clean up all of my mess but here is the pump. It is a simer reversible pump. I put it in a small battery box and cut the side out. This will keep towels and other such items off of it and keep it clear for ventilation also. I put the box on the floor next to the small step where my main battery is.








The sac I used was a 700 lb Lets go ride sac. Very, very nice. I highly recommend these sacs. I used a flow-rite quick release in case I need to take the sac out. I broke the male portion of the flow rite barb and am re-ordering another one right now. I also ordered the sac with 1 inch nozzles so as to have less restriction when the water makes the right angle into the sac. I also ordered the sac with 3 holes in case I want to change something later and just capped off one hole. I did not want to drill another hole so I used a hose that will be attatched on the bare barb in the pic. It will be up in the bow and serve as the overflow/burp line. I will just lay the hose out on the floor just out of the opening. When water comes out I will just turn off the small hose ball valve on it and tuck it back into the locker opening.








I still need to put a couple more conduit holders on the hose to clean thins up but there you have it. 700 pounds auto ballast very easy.
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-18-2003, 2:43 PM Reply   
SPECIAL THANKS TO:
TODD RAESIDE (WATERBOY)
PETE LAW FROOM LETS GO RIDE
AND
JAMES McCULLUM (ALSO ON WAKEWORLD)
All three of these guys were a big help.
Old    CAwakesk8r (hatepwcs)      Join Date: Mar 2002       02-18-2003, 2:51 PM Reply   
Does this mean the end of the ballast ?'s? j/k

Congrats, let me know how it helps.


Old    Jason Thayer (jtfrisco)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-18-2003, 2:54 PM Reply   
Hey Ty, I am guessing the quick connect fittings you got from Flow-rite were the 3/4 ID ones. How are you connecting them to the bag, if you have 1" holes? I am having this dilemma now, 3/4" quick lock 90 Degrees just doesn't work in a 1" hole.

Thanks,

Jason
Old    Chris Quam (noquams)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-18-2003, 3:13 PM Reply   
What was your aprox cost? Are you planning on placing the let go ride sac in the bow in front of the cooler under the floor?
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-18-2003, 3:14 PM Reply   
Hey neely. Thank goodness I am finished. I have PP installed now also.

Jason,
The right angle is a 1" with a 3/4" npt nipple that has a 3/4" hose barb on the other side. I went this option because the most restriction you have in this systme is when the water hits the right angle.
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-18-2003, 3:22 PM Reply   
pump: 60.00
sac: 135.00
switch and 30 amp breaker: 10.00
battery box: 10.00
cable aprox: 50.00
misc fittings and hose aprox: 50.00

So around 300.00 for a full system including the sac. These are conservative estimates and probably work out to be less.

(Message edited by typhoon on February 18, 2003)
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-18-2003, 3:24 PM Reply   
Also I did have to hack saw off about 3" off the water intake hose to fit properly.
Old    Jason Thayer (jtfrisco)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-18-2003, 3:57 PM Reply   
How are you hooking your Quick Connect up to it then? On the pic, it looks like you are hooking your quick connect up to it? I could be wrong though.
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-18-2003, 4:07 PM Reply   
Sorry,
got ahead of myself. It is a 1" right angle to a 3/4" nipple npt which is 3/4" npt on both sides. The pic of that white cap used to be the cap and female. i believe it is the flow-rite ma-041 on their website.
Old    Jason Thayer (jtfrisco)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-18-2003, 4:26 PM Reply   
Thanks Ty.. Could the part number be MA-029


Old    Kung Fu Wake & Video (dcervenka)      Join Date: Sep 2002       02-18-2003, 4:29 PM Reply   
Nice work Ty! Thanks for the pics!

Do you have the electrical set up yet? (relays, etc...)
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-18-2003, 4:30 PM Reply   
ma-021 and the ma-041
the nipple was just a straight 3/4 to 3/4 male on both sides that these attatched to.
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-18-2003, 4:31 PM Reply   
oops i mean ma-014 and ma-021
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-18-2003, 4:33 PM Reply   
I ran the two 10 guage wires to the dpdt 3 position switch and bridged the top positive out to the bottom negative out and vice versa to the other two. Each bridged line runs to one line to the pump. I also put a 30 amp breaker on the switch also.
Old    Jason Thayer (jtfrisco)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-18-2003, 4:35 PM Reply   
Are you sure ty? :-) ma-021 is GHT...

Part # ma-021


where as ma-029 is NPT



Just trying to clear this up as I need to order one or the other.. I already posses serveral ma-21's.

(Message edited by jtfrisco on February 18, 2003)
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-18-2003, 4:38 PM Reply   
I know. I called Roger Miller from flow-rite and asked him the same question after seeing this. He said that it fits perfect since it is a straight thread. I trusted him and it did fit like a glove. Try it and let me know how yours fits.
Old    Jason Thayer (jtfrisco)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-18-2003, 4:53 PM Reply   
Thanks, ok, this may be a stupid question, but can't you just use the Ma-029 and go straight into your 90 degree 1" to 3/4" NPT? Thus not needing the 3/4 male to male?
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-18-2003, 5:00 PM Reply   
Actually yes...Not a stupid question...Just overlooked on my part. I already had the other part and the nipple was only 1.00.
Old    Jason Thayer (jtfrisco)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-18-2003, 5:16 PM Reply   
Thanks, I really appreciate your help. I will take pics once this is all said and done. Hopefully this weekend.
Old    John Strain (jmanjohn)      Join Date: Nov 2001       02-18-2003, 5:29 PM Reply   
OUTSTANDING! Ty can You tell Me a little more about the pump? I am getting close to installing My 2 rear sacks. I am want to use 2 pumps. All I found seems a little pricey.
Old    Jason Thayer (jtfrisco)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-18-2003, 5:57 PM Reply   
Hey John, I can try to help you as well as I did a similar setup but with more bags. I am using the Same pump as Ty (simer pump)(but only using this pump to drain, not fill). I got the pump for $65 at BE Atlas coorporation per Ty's referal. I have the phone number and Part number (you need this otherwise they are clueless) at work which I can get you tomorrow if you would like.
Old    John Strain (jmanjohn)      Join Date: Nov 2001       02-18-2003, 6:09 PM Reply   
I will take any help or advice I can get! thanks!
Old    Jason Thayer (jtfrisco)      Join Date: Apr 2002       02-18-2003, 6:12 PM Reply   
Here is there Phone Number 800-305-4393 and the part number is BW8512 for a Simer 600.
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-18-2003, 8:55 PM Reply   
John, drop me a line if you need any help or any questions. With this set up on the large scoop strainer, it should actually fill very quickly while moving forward...
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-18-2003, 8:57 PM Reply   
It was very easy. Just remember, heat gun for the hose...
Old    jmccallum            02-19-2003, 5:49 AM Reply   
Looks good Ty!

I think I'll be upgrading this summer with those flow-rite valves and fittings.

P.S. McCallum
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-19-2003, 6:09 AM Reply   
Sorry. I was in a hurry and just took a stab at it.
thanks
Old    KStateAlumni (bbeach)      Join Date: Jul 2002       02-19-2003, 7:19 AM Reply   
This might also be a dumb question, but isn't there a possibility that swiping water from your engine water intake can cause a problem with your engine not getting enough water to cool itself? If so I would see this as the only drawback to this system. Although I really like the idea of this setup because it keeps drilling holes in the hull to zero, plus its cheap and looks fairly easy.

Is this pump reversible? Does this system work in reverse even though it pumps in through the intake valve? How can it pump water out through a hose that constanly takes IN water?

I know these are a lot of ?'s but I'm interested in this idea and I'm just trying to get it straight in my head.

Thanks for the info Ty-One-on, great work!
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-19-2003, 7:27 AM Reply   
Thanks. The pump does not rob enough but I still will be only fillijng while moving or with the engine off. As far as draining: It would probably be best to drain it at an idle or engine off. I figured I would drain it while waiting to get the trailer or while we put stuff away after the last boarder. there is usually plenty of time.
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       02-19-2003, 8:23 AM Reply   
OK, i've posted on this several times. i've never heard of anyone having a problem with cooling water starvation. i've had my systems set up this way for >4 yrs now, and no problems. most engine raw water pumps are about 50 gpm. you're not in danger of overpowering the engine pump unless your ballast pumps are somewhere close to that capacity.

when you reverse the pump, if the engine is running the drained water goes thru the engine. if the engine's off, it goes out the intake to the lake.

read my article if you haven't yet: http://wakeworld.com/Articles/2001/BallastSystem1.asp
Old    KStateAlumni (bbeach)      Join Date: Jul 2002       02-19-2003, 8:30 AM Reply   
Good Deal!
Old    Cliff Griffin (seattle)      Join Date: Mar 2002       02-19-2003, 6:57 PM Reply   
I'm to the same belief as Trace as far as cooling goes. I just bought my Simer pumps and I plan on installing a similar system in my boat, with one pump for my 800lb sack in the ski locker, and one for the two 600lb sacks in the back.

I will plenty of pics while installing the system so everyone can benefit from it.

Ty,

Jeff and I are going to do my boat first, he wants to use me as a guinea pig the same way I used your ideas. Just a thought, you should be asking for a commision all the damn buisness your sending to Jabsco.
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-20-2003, 7:03 AM Reply   
actually simer. they are just too cheap and nice. if you have any questions at all drop me a line. It was very simple.
Old    rob (98air)      Join Date: Jun 2002       02-24-2003, 3:34 AM Reply   
An engine raw water pump pumps 50 gallons per minute?! That's 3000 gallons per hour! You sure? Maybe 50 gallons per hour? Why not use the engine pump to suck all the water out of the sacs then? Open a valve and let the fat sac water flow with the raw water intake. Why couldn't that work?
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       02-24-2003, 7:01 AM Reply   
how about a 62 gpm pump with an electric clutch? http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=23074
if you use the engine pump, the thermostat affects the flow rate, and you'd have to shut off the raw water intake to get full flow. would be easy to burn up your impeller, cause overheating, etc.
Old    rob (98air)      Join Date: Jun 2002       02-25-2003, 3:58 AM Reply   
the thermostat controls how much water goes thru the engine for cooling. if the engine doesn't need the water for cooling, it is bypassed. The impeller always pulls water in though.
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       02-25-2003, 7:43 AM Reply   
something affects the flow rate quite a bit. i tried using my engine impeller for ballast a few yrs ago, and you'd get almost no flow, and then suddenly the sacks were about to pop. thermostat made the most sense to me. also, doesn't the bypass actually occur thru the thermostat? i believe boat thermostats have a hole drilled in them, so you just get more flow when it's open.
Old    nohalfboats            02-27-2003, 6:30 PM Reply   
if your moving while filling,the motor gets half the water it needs.Good idea but i would definetly be concerned.
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       02-27-2003, 7:17 PM Reply   
Barry - you're saying it's safer to fill while stopped? why? the intake scoop increases the pressure at the inlet when you're moving. the impeller runs also faster with rpm, and can thus draw more water. IMO the most risk would be filling at idle, not underway.
Old    nohalfboats            02-27-2003, 7:51 PM Reply   
The scoop does not increase pressure.The pressure is from the weight of your boat on the water,which only will change once you get more weight in the boat.If a 1 1/4 hose lets say,was the size of the hose to your water pump,you can only pump so much water through that diameter.When the impeller speeds up you are basically right where you started from as the flow to the ballasts will increase also.
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       02-27-2003, 8:36 PM Reply   
okey dokey. lalala
Old    nohalfboats            02-27-2003, 10:31 PM Reply   
a mechanical engineer? yeko yekod
Old    Psyclone (cyclonecj)      Join Date: Jul 2001       02-28-2003, 6:18 AM Reply   
If you have a scupper you can fill your sacks (albeit slowly) with no pump, if the boat is moving. If you have a different type of thru hull fitting (mushroom) it won't work. In most cases, the sacks are pretty close to the waterline so there is equilibrium if the boat isn't moving. Try it, Barry.
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       02-28-2003, 6:25 AM Reply   
i just realized something; i think we're talking about two different things, Barry. you're talking about using the engine impeller, right?
i was talking about pulling from the raw water line before the impeller with aux pumps. sorry about that.
Old    nohalfboats            02-28-2003, 6:39 PM Reply   
Were on the same page trace.If your pulling before the impeller while moving,you're depriving the impeller from it's normal water intake.I have been wrong before.My girl says i'm correct because she knows everything.(haha)
Old    rob (98air)      Join Date: Jun 2002       03-01-2003, 12:18 AM Reply   
You've used the impeller to fill fat sacs? I was talking about empting the sacs...I'm sure someone has tried this. What if you tap into the engine intake with the hose from the fat sacs and open this to the engine intake? Wouldn't this suction empty the fat sacs...and if not could you close the raw water intake so the impeller would suck the fat sac even more?
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       03-02-2003, 8:37 AM Reply   
yes, i tried using it for fill, with aerator pumps right on the sacks for drain. it's possible to drain with it. i would be very hesitant to divert the raw intake, though. the Bernoulli principle may cause some suction anyway, though.

Barry- asked my gf, and she said i'm probably wrong, so feel free to ignore this. :-) i don't understand why you say "if you're moving"? a (properly oriented) scoop intake definitely increases inlet pressure when underway. scoops

i do understand your point about max pipe flow @ given pressure. i don't have my fluids book at home, but i'm curious now. my only points were: a) as long as your ballast pumps aren't too close to your impeller's capacity, your engine will still get water. b) i used to watch the temp like a hawk when filling sacks when i first used this design, and the needle never budged. right now i'm running 20 gpm on the ballast. i still want that belt-driven pump!

peace :-) Trace
Old    nohalfboats            03-02-2003, 11:13 AM Reply   
Trace-you are right,the engine will get water at the same time as the ballasts,but not like it would normally would get if their was nothing else drawing off the same line.I guesswhat i really was thinking about at first was to make sure the pump feeding the ballasts before the impeller should have alot less gpm's than the impeller gpm's.I'm sure that the gpm change won't make a difference in engine cooling for the amount of time it takes to fill the sacs.The whole pressure thing--volume is what we are after.you could have 200 psi on an impeller that can only pump so much water so if the pressure was 50psi you'd be getting the same amount of volume no matter what the pressure is.(of course their is a minimum pressure for every pump).This is just a dumb plumber debating a mechanical engineer though.GO PHAT.................
Old    Coinless (bruce)      Join Date: Feb 2002       03-02-2003, 12:14 PM Reply   
What is your fill and empty time like?
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       03-02-2003, 8:28 PM Reply   
Bruce - between 15-20 min for ~1800-2k lbs.

Barry - i have no doubt that you have more experience with this stuff than i do. also if you scroll up to my first post in this thread, i think we're saying pretty much the same thing. out of curiosity, i'm gonna run flow rates for 1-1/4" pipe when i have some time. most marine washdown pumps i've seen are around 15-40 psi on the outlet side, but no specs what they can pull... i think -10 psi would be a pretty conservative number for an engine impeller pump - you agree?
Old    TY-one-on (typhoon)      Join Date: Jul 2001       03-03-2003, 7:31 AM Reply   
If you are worried make sure you fill moving over 10 mph or with the engine off. i was told that 10 mph is the key speed for the scoop intake.
Old    Trace (trace)      Join Date: Feb 2002       03-03-2003, 9:37 AM Reply   
OK, i'm too lazy to do the calcs, but Google found this: http://www.connel.com/freeware/flowcalc1.shtml

plug in numbers as desired. this is for straight pipe w/out fittings, but there's also a link to a more detailed program that will account for fittings, valves, etc.
Old    nohalfboats            03-03-2003, 8:52 PM Reply   
agreed trace.Till next time.peace

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