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Old    Lyle Ramsdell (sunsport)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-10-2007, 11:50 AM Reply   
Any thoughts to what went wrong. . . .Upload
Old    Loren (helix_rider)      Join Date: Mar 2003       08-10-2007, 12:16 PM Reply   
Take my advice with a grain of salt, seeing as how I can't do whirlies, but from the pictures I have of my buddy Nick who throws them, he always showed some line 'slack', the line was kinda coiled at some point in the trick. Your line looks pretty taut the whole time, and that's probably why you got pulled over the front. The guys who know this trick will probably also say you are adding the 'whirl' part too late.
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Old    M-Dizzle (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-10-2007, 7:45 PM Reply   
Your doing what I did when I first learned them. Your trying to throw a t2b off the wake. A whirly is the EXACT same cut as a tantrum, you then attempt to punch your Jaw with your lead hand. When done correctly it is almost effortless. You can see yourself rotating away from the boat in pictures 3 and 4 as a result of initiating it off the wake. I am willing to bet by about 90 degrees of the spins rotation your really working to get your body around while hanging onto the rope, right?

Go out and throw 4-6 tantrums in a row, they try another whirly. Focus on the exact same tripping, rotation, etc. Once your rotated 90 degrees in the flip try to punch yourself in the jaw. When you get it right, you will know. Once I started doing them right I was having to slow down since I started over-rotating the spin to a 450ish.

I would say its similar to a 3, the whirly is initiated in the air after the tantrum.
Old    Steve Jones (steve_jones)      Join Date: Jun 2006       08-14-2007, 8:29 PM Reply   
Lyle, listen to Matt. He knows what's up.
Old    Lyle Ramsdell (sunsport)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-15-2007, 9:04 AM Reply   
Thanks guys for the info. So Matt I am little confused to what you are saying. I realize I am getting way too much tension in the line. Especially on this attempt because it tweaked my shoulder. And when I am halfway through the spin it really feels like my body is accelerating due to rope pulling me around. Are you saying I need to throw it more front flip style so that I roll towards the boat more?

Skiing made me board,
Lyle
Chrome Dome
Old    M-Dizzle (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-15-2007, 1:10 PM Reply   
Okay I took a second look at those pics and it looks like your late on the initiation of the BS 3.

Take a look at the first pic from Loren and see that form he has. Now look at your picture at the top right, that is whats creating some of that line tension.

Personally, I would work on throwing your tantrums more like a straight up backflip, than a flip away from the boat. If you look at your pics for the first half of the tantrum, its laid out raley esque, behind you. Take a look at my profile pic. Thats an indy tantrum, straight back. By taking them straight back you lower line tension making that earlier initiation of the BS 3 easier.

So to summarize, go back and do some tantrums, closer to a back flip and less out the back raley esque. Then try a whirly and initiate early like pic one of lorens. That should fix it and make things right. Remember, everything off the wake is the same as a tantrum, the initiation of the whirly starts in the air.
Old    Loren (helix_rider)      Join Date: Mar 2003       08-15-2007, 1:22 PM Reply   
Man...I wish that pic was of me. Just to give credit where credit is due, that is my buddy Nick.
Old    Lyle Ramsdell (sunsport)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-15-2007, 4:21 PM Reply   
So before I attempt a Whirly I do Tantrums until one feels Whirly Bird quality then I go for the Whirly. So this was the tantrum right before the Whirly. I don't have that slack in the line like you do Matt. I do not understand why.

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Old    M-Dizzle (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-15-2007, 5:33 PM Reply   
I am not completely clear as to why either. I would think loading the line more before the trip flip would give that slack. When I do my tanny's I load the line pretty good before tripping the edge. I have also been doing them a REALLY long time, lol. I think when I dont get a good pop and trip I get a tight line as well. Try taking them up more than across maybe?

Most of this is from memory as I just starting getting back to my stock bag o tricks after knee surgery. I will try a couple in the next week and get back to you.
Old    M-Dizzle (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-16-2007, 8:16 AM Reply   
Okay, just as I posted the above advice I get the new wakeboarder magazine. This issue has an instructional on whirly's and shows Nick Jones throwing a very low and out the back whirly, lol.

I guess its different strokes for different folks. I personally felt like the ones out the back required a lot more muscle and work. The ones more upright seemed very fluid and effortless.

How many have you tried Lyle? I want to say it took at least a 10-15ish good ones for me to get my bearings in the air, see the landing, etc. I also learned these out of the line of progression, meaning my riding had many holes. lol.
Old    Lyle Ramsdell (sunsport)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-16-2007, 11:10 AM Reply   
I've been trying them for 4 years, but just this year have started to get close. Just in April though I started getting the trip flip correct. I learned how to do a Tantrum in '95. I can do switch Tantrums, Frontside spins all day long, backside 3s about 50%. Working on a switch scarecrow since it simulates the landing for a whirly, and I can do oles to simulate the over the head action. I can do Whirlys on the tramp. I've probably tried 75-100 Whirlys this season. It does feel like it takes a significant amount of strength to bring the rope across my face, and why I think it appears I am throwing the spin late.

It seems like when I throw a HS front flip I get a little slack in the rope. That is why I wondering if when I take off I need to throw it a little more front flip style.
Old    Nick C (wakedude83)      Join Date: Apr 2004       08-16-2007, 12:52 PM Reply   
You are thinking way way way too much. You shouldn't be trying to make the line slack. You NEED TO USE THE LINE TENSION to spin! The rope will only look slack in a pic, but will never feel slack during the trick if you do it right. Pulling on the rope before you take off and all that will just make everything worse. In your whirly sequence, you have your front arm out when you land. Just pound it out.
Old    Lyle Ramsdell (sunsport)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-17-2007, 12:05 PM Reply   
There was so much tension in the line on that Whirly bird attempt it screwed up my shoulder. I can't afford to do that again otherwise I am afraid it is going to rip my rotator cuff. I need to reduce the tension in the line some how. As far as the pictures go, all the whirly birds I have seen their is a point where the rope does not make a straight line to the rider and looks like there is a whip in it. In all the sequence shots of me doing whirlies they look just like this one where the rope is totally straight through the whole trick.
Old    trent (wakeboardlf25)      Join Date: May 2007       08-17-2007, 12:08 PM Reply   
same here lyle i used to have whirly's dialed....next thing i kno i did a messed up whirlybird and hurt my shoulder bad....so i switched the whirly for moby dicks
Old    B.C.P...........Mike (wakeeater2003)      Join Date: Mar 2004       08-17-2007, 12:38 PM Reply   
I used to do whirlys and then I did a bunch of moby dicks and now my whirly is screwed up. I just need to work on them a little bit and I will get them back. The only problem I have it my whirly has never felt very good (feels more like a huck) so I would rather do moby dicks.

If you watnt to get rid of the tension in the line have the boat driver make a small turn in the direction you are heading (for left foot forward have the boat driver turn to the left. This will ease some of the line tension until you get a hold of the trick. Good luck BCP MIke
Old    Thane Dogg (thane_dogg)      Join Date: Jun 2002       08-17-2007, 1:03 PM Reply   
this is a trick that I've wanted to learn for a long time, but I've never tried it because I could never even do it on the tramp, and never even had a consistent tantrum on the water. I've been trying to learn it on the tramp and they're getting a lot better. I've found that on the tramp the square up part is key.

I jump with my shoulders almost perpindicular to the simulated boat's path, and on my way down from the jump I "square" my shoulders up by turning them backside. If I don't do this it's hard to throw the whirly.

I then concentrate on flipping straight back, and once I'm airborne I turn my head and pull on the rope. I don't try and go across my face, I try to pull the handle across my body to back hip. My theory is that if you pull at the right time and turn your head at the right time, that's what is gonna give you that slack, and once you get to that point the trick is done, other than seeing the landing and standing up.

Also pulling on the handle when you're in the right position is going to line up your body perfectly with the rope and the and spin will just happen.

If I do it right I can see the landing really early because my front arm is down and out of the way of my field of vision and your front hand is in a perfect position to help slow down or speed up your rotation.

(Message edited by thane_dogg on August 17, 2007)
Old    B.C.P...........Mike (wakeeater2003)      Join Date: Mar 2004       08-17-2007, 1:05 PM Reply   
I can do whirly fives and sevens on the tramp. It is a different feeling on the water. But it definatly helps if you do them on the tramp
Old    Nick C (wakedude83)      Join Date: Apr 2004       08-20-2007, 7:11 AM Reply   
Again, just because the rope looks slack for 1/4 of a second in a still-picture doesn't mean it feels slack while you are doing the trick. If your rope goes slack during the trick, you won't spin.
Old    Lyle Ramsdell (sunsport)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-22-2007, 4:15 PM Reply   
I think I may have figured something out that is wrong with my tantrum/whirly bird. I don't think I am squaring up enough to the wake as I hit it. So in essence I throw the backflip away from the boat creating a lot of tension. So then when I go to throw the whirly it is really difficult to get the handle across my body. This is also why it appears I throw the spin late, when in actuality it is just taking me a long time to over come the tension.

Thane Dog,
Your shoulders should be parallel to the simulated path of the boat not perpendicular when practicing on the tramp. Otherwise you will have the exact problem I am talking about. Actually when I was at the Wakeboard Camp Kyle Schmidt told me this while practicing on the tramp.
Old    M-Dizzle (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       08-23-2007, 8:42 AM Reply   
Glad to hear things are starting to come together Lyle.
Old    JPBoarder (jpboarder)      Join Date: Jun 2007       08-23-2007, 9:23 PM Reply   
Lyle you are probably right about throwing the flip away from the boat. I know this because that is the problem I have on my tantrums, and it creates a lot of line tension which would make it way hard to get the handle across. Just go back to your tantrums and practice flipping straight back and not away from the boat. Good luck, hope you land it soon.
Old    Lyle Ramsdell (sunsport)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-27-2007, 11:20 AM Reply   
I discovered something this weekend; it seems to really help if I let go with my back hand early, like at the bottom of the wake. This seems to really release the tension in the line. The problem I started having though is that I would throw the trick early. I really think this will help on the Whirly, but I need to first get comfortable with letting go early on the tantrum then throw the flip not doing them simultaneously. Any thoughts from the Whirly Birders amongst us?
Old    Eubanks (eubanks01)      Join Date: Jun 2001       08-27-2007, 11:56 AM Reply   
Lyle - When do you let go of your back hand on your tantrums?
Old    JPBoarder (jpboarder)      Join Date: Jun 2007       08-27-2007, 1:06 PM Reply   
Lyle - I think letting go of the handle early does help a lot with the tension. Now that I think of it, when I was first learning the tantrum I did let go earlier and their was a lot less tension on the line. Ever since, I have developed a habit of letting go at the latest time possible which probably is creating the tension in the line. So I guess you just have to learn to ride up the wake with one hand, pop, and then flip.
Old    Lyle Ramsdell (sunsport)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-27-2007, 3:54 PM Reply   
Eubanks,
If you look at the sequence shot I typically don't let go until I am in the air. Over the weekend I was trying to change it but it caused me to start throwing them early. Funny I have never heard this from any of the pros but it is starting to become apparent that letting go with the back hand early is important.
Old    Thane Dogg (thane_dogg)      Join Date: Jun 2002       08-30-2007, 12:41 PM Reply   

quote:

Thane Dog,
Your shoulders should be parallel to the simulated path of the boat not perpendicular when practicing on the tramp.




I turn them paralell as I'm coming down from the jump prior to the jump that will simulate my pop, to emulate the squaring up feeling.
Old    Lyle Ramsdell (sunsport)      Join Date: Sep 2002       08-31-2007, 9:49 AM Reply   
Thane,
That sounds about right. Kyle Schmidt said I should be practicing Whirlys on the tramp only holding on with one hand and my shoulders should be parallel to the boat path as I take off.

I have come to conclusion that I was definitely not letting go with the back hand early enough on the tantrum and Whirly. When I let go with the back hand at the bottom of the wake it makes a huge difference in the amount of tension in the line. It has taken a while to adapt. I kept throwing the trick early because I was used to initiating it right when I would let go. But now I pretty much have it down.

Skiing made me board,
Lyle
Chrome Dome
Old    Lyle Ramsdell (sunsport)      Join Date: Sep 2002       09-10-2007, 2:28 PM Reply   
Okay still have not landed this yet. I did notice a difference between me and others. It looks like when a rider takes off correctly there front shoulder is dipping towards the boat and I am doing the opposite. When I try this with the tantrum it seems to help reduce the tension in the line. Has anyone played around with this at all?

Skiing made me board,
Lyle
Chrome Dome
Old    Lyle Ramsdell (sunsport)      Join Date: Sep 2002       09-21-2007, 4:04 PM Reply   
I tried to let go early with the back hand, tried to come off edge early, tried to keep my lead arm in tight, tried to dip my front shoulder towards the boat, tried to keep my hand in front of my face but still get yanked over the front. Check out the pict. . .
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Old    trent (wakeboardlf25)      Join Date: May 2007       09-21-2007, 4:12 PM Reply   
http://youtube.com/watch?v=G2vA8BPdc14

if u go to the link and look at the second fall on here...i believe it resembles what ur doin....i used to have a dialed whirly then lost it....the important i did to fix it was to keep my bicep as close to my chest on the ole as i could...but ur soooo close just keep tryin and it'll just make since one day
Old    M-Dizzle (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-21-2007, 5:47 PM Reply   
Lyle, I would say your very close. The second one in from the left and the next three frames, on the second row shows that your not "punching" hard enough to get that elbow in front of your face. I bet if you go back out and get that elbow in front of your face, it will be ON!!!

How was the line tension, still pretty tight?

Good luck and keep us posted. Stay safe, that looks like a hard fall.
Old    alexisisa noma (alexisisa8)      Join Date: Sep 2007       09-23-2007, 11:25 PM Reply   
Hi buddy,
It is nice pics.Keep it on.
Old    Lyle Ramsdell (sunsport)      Join Date: Sep 2002       09-24-2007, 12:58 PM Reply   
Thank you guys for the tips. Trent that is a sweet video. The line tension is definitely less. One thing Kyle Schmidt told me was to try and throw the 360 earlier which I think would corrolate with what you both Trent and Matt are saying; inorder to get the line tension out at end of the trick, so as to not get pulled over the front, at the beginning of the trick you really have to pull hard on the handle. Also I have noticed several guys when they do them right as they are landing bring the handle down by their knee. I think this also helps prevent being pulled over the front. Here is an attempt from yesterday. . .

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Old    M-Dizzle (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       09-24-2007, 2:57 PM Reply   
Dude, looking SUPER CLOSE! Glad to see things are starting to feel better. I took about 6-9 falls identical to that last one you posted before sticking my first one. I can remember the fall right before I landed it. Very similar to yours above, only mine I landed riding away and slowly went over my front foot. It takes quite a few tries to get your air awareness about yourself. I bet a few more tries and its yours.

The most annoying thing about learning that trick was the conitinual de-booting. I can remember being more tired from having to re-boot than actually taking the falls.

The perfectionist in me still says to initiate the spin sooner. I would say that you should be trying to uppercut yourself in the face by the 5th pic in the sequence.

(Message edited by liquidmx on September 24, 2007)
Old    Lyle Ramsdell (sunsport)      Join Date: Sep 2002       09-24-2007, 3:19 PM Reply   
Ha! De-boot that is funny. All the hair is ripped off the tops of my feet from coming out of my bindings so often trying this. I think you are right though Matt. Out of the hundreds of sequence shots I have seen of myself trying a Whirly this is the very first one I have seen the rope go slightly slack (frame 7). All the sequence shots I have seen of guys doing them there is slack in the line at some point. My guess is doing the upper cut hard and early generates the slack late in the move so you don't get pulled over the front. Next time I ride I will give that a shot.

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Old    Lyle Ramsdell (sunsport)      Join Date: Sep 2002       10-09-2007, 10:21 AM Reply   
I think I have figured out a couple more things about this move. I haven't bee surfing up the wake at the very end more of a quick action transfering my weight from my heels to my toes. This is not generating the slack I need. The other thing is I definitely throw the spin too late as in this sequence shot. It seems to do 2 things to me when I throw it late. The first is the second half of the spin happens really quick as in this photo. The second is it does seem to generate more tension in the line which wasn't a problem in this shot because I didn't get pulled over the front as in other photos. The way I was trying to think about it last night as not two seperate moves but merge them into one, that way right as you take off your throwing the spin and the flip. I think the advantage of doing it this way is the rider is able to advance towards the boat helping alleviate the tension. Boy it really feels like I am learning a lot about this dang trick.
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Old    M-Dizzle (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       10-09-2007, 4:39 PM Reply   
Looking close Kyle, sounds like your on the right track.
Old    Lyle Ramsdell (sunsport)      Join Date: Sep 2002       11-06-2007, 8:19 AM Reply   
So several people have told me to throw the spin earlier. And in this sequence shot I did. The problem I seem to have with throwing it earlier is it generates even more tension. When I think about it seems to make sense that it would because right off the wake I am trying to turn away from the boat, causing the line to go tight. Any thoughts. . .
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Old    Michael Mueller (sacmule)      Join Date: May 2007       11-06-2007, 3:36 PM Reply   
Try coming off your edge and flatten out a little further from the wake. It appears you are still on edge or immediately off it at the time you "trip" your tantrum. This will greatly increase the tension in the line and leave the board trailing away from the boat, as you have described above. This could very well be the source of the increased tension and subsequent shoulder pain. This advise is echoed within the book instructional series. Good luck.
Old    M-Dizzle (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       11-07-2007, 9:02 AM Reply   
Lyle, pics 4 and 5 show what I think Michael is getting at. The nose of your board is still pointing across the wake rather than at the boat. This may be why that line tension is so heavy.
Old    Ryan Jones (ryanjones)      Join Date: Nov 2007       11-07-2007, 5:00 PM Reply   
Lyle,

Most people will say that you punch the rope across your body. I don't recommend that. It is one way but, think about this. If you tie a wakeboard handle straight in front of you. Then square up as if you were about to throw your whirly. Take your lead foot and step toward the handle a little. This should give you some play in the rope. Then, move the rope past your face and over you head. This movement is only done with your arm and upper body. Your lower body should not have moved yet. With the rope around the back of your head and with your thumb knuckle touching the top of your shoulder. Pivot on your back foot and pull the rope to your front hip to rotate your body. This is how I would get rotation on your whirly. Good Luck.
Old    Lyle Ramsdell (sunsport)      Join Date: Sep 2002       11-08-2007, 4:27 PM Reply   
Thank you guys for the tips anything is very much appreciated. I have been trying to stick this since June riding 4-5 times per week, probably making 7-8 attempts per outing. It is getting a bit frustrating.

Michael, I have tried to flatten out earlier and can't seem to get any air. I've watched the whirly section on the book many times. However, they don't have a section of bad whirlies and how to fix them.

Matt, you make a good point in the sequence I don't square up to the wake very well, and may be why I feel like I have disgressed about lately. But if you look at some of my prior picts I do square up to the wake.

Ryan, come on what do you know about Whirlies? Just kidding nice vid on You Tube. It would definitely help if I could try this trick another manner. I am having trouble following you though. I lost you at the lead foot stepping towards the handle. I do know when I go off the wake it is taking every ounce of strength to try and pull the rope across my face and most of the time my hand ends up behind my head.

Skiing made me board,
Lyle
Chrome Dome
Old    Ryan Jones (ryanjones)      Join Date: Nov 2007       11-08-2007, 8:34 PM Reply   
Well I mean off the water. Just to get the rotation down, Hook up your handle to something solid and do the spin part of the whirly. When I said step forward with you lead foot before, that is just to give you enough rope(slack) to get it past your head.
If you are having a hard time holding onto the rope... Put more of the line tension on your shoulders. That way the rope is pulling you hole upper body and not just pulling you arm out of your side.
Old    Lyle Ramsdell (sunsport)      Join Date: Sep 2002       12-11-2007, 1:52 PM Reply   
Yes! I landed it on Saturday. Damn 8 months of attempts, hopefully it isn't that long before I stick it again. The one thing I remember in mid air was thinking, "Oh shik I am going to under spin it." Next thing I knew I was riding out of it.

Hmm, I think this deserves a post in the general forums . . .

Skiing made me board,
Lyle
Chrome Dome
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(Message edited by sunsport on December 11, 2007)
Old    Ryan Jones (ryanjones)      Join Date: Nov 2007       12-11-2007, 5:00 PM Reply   
CONGRATS..... Welcome to the whirly club!!!!
Old    M-Dizzle (liquidmx)      Join Date: Jun 2005       12-12-2007, 9:11 AM Reply   
Big ups!!! It took me quite a few trys to stick my first too.

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